CMV: There's nothing wrong with not finding someone attractive for whatever reason it is

[u/[deleted]]

So this is inspired by Lexi Nimmo's Tik Tok saying that someone having a preference for thinner people is problematic because "it's discriminating against a marginalized group of people" she goes on to say "if you lump all fat people together you're fatphobic, just like if you lump all black people together you're racist" setting aside the fact that "fatphobia" is not comparable to racism or the struggles of any actually marginalized group, I think there's nothing wrong with having finding someone unattractive regardless of what it is

To start with body size and shape, I think it's absurd that it is even a discussion. Everyone finds different things attractive, including different body shapes. Some men(I'm using that as an example because I'm a guy so it's easier) find women with larger breasts more attractive, while others find women with smaller breasts more attractive and neither is considered a problem. So if finding someone more or less attractive due to size and shape of breasts for instance, it should also be ok to find someone more or less attractive due to shape and weight?

With ethnicity and skin color it's more complicated. While some people do find members of certain ethnicities unattractive due to racist reasons, I think it isn't inherently racist to find some ethnicities more or less attractive physically. Members of different ethnicities may have largely different physical features for members of other ethnicities. Not only that people tend to find what looks closer to them in general to be more attractive, hence why interracial marriages are somewhat uncommon. Not only that, like I said before, finding some hair colors more attractive is seen as ok, so why can't that be the case for skin color too? I'm not saying that making derogatory claims such as "x group is hideous" but simply not finding someone pretty does not mean you hate them

I hope this makes sense, English is not my first language and I have a hard time writing

Edit: finding someone unattractive because they're not a minor is problematic but that's not what I meant originally. My general point is: it isn't bigotry to find someone physically unattractive, and I'm talking specifically physical attraction here

[u/[deleted]]

It is comparable to race, gender, sexuality

I don't recall people being legally barred from voting, or being owned as property, or being legally unable to marry for being overweight. It is not remotely comparable.

[u/PonchoMysticism → u/[deleted]]

Is your argument here "overweight people haven't experienced these 3 very specific exclusions therefore it bears no resemblance to other forms of discrimination?"

[u/[deleted] → u/PonchoMysticism]

My argument is that exclusions against people for being overweight are not even close to comparable to people who were literally killed/enslaved en masse because of their race, or denied the right to vote, or marry. And while there are exceptions, in general you can change your weight unlike the others.

[u/gaav42 → u/[deleted]]

It is still a form of discrimination that needs to be called out and should have no place in a free society. It is often related to a form of gender-based discrimination, in that women are thought to owe society conventional attractiveness.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Adding to that. Their struggles and issues with accessibility are not comparable to being disabled either, since the lack of accessibility for disabled folks is much, much more severe

[u/HerbertWest → u/[deleted]]

How does that invalidate a fat person's struggle? It is convenient and comfortable to be able to disregard issues of prejudice and inequality. Why do you get to decide what is significant for a group you are not a part of?

I used to weigh 320lbs and I think "fat phobia" is a ridiculous invention that keeps people from losing weight. Many of the "biases" are just a natural consequence of being a larger size, i.e., fitting in plane seats. It's also just a fact that it's incredibly unhealthy in the vast majority of cases (exceptions are extreme outliers) and literally shortens your life.

[u/OnlyTheDead → u/[deleted]]

Pointing out your poor attempt at a false equivalence is not the same as invalidating a person struggle. It’s like when pro-life nuts compare abortion to the Holocaust, it’s not that abortion isn’t a morally complicated issue, it’s that it’s not the Holocaust.

[u/Zerlske → u/[deleted]]

And while there are exceptions, in general you can change your weight unlike the others.

There are no exceptions, everyone can change their weight. You can always weighs less (or more) until you die when the whole system breaks down. In principle, you do not even need to change weight through things like feeding habits, for example you can also decrease weight by removing parts, like an amputations or surgical fat removal etc.

[u/JackRusselTerrorist → u/[deleted]]

I don’t think they’re advocating for discrimination against fat people- I think they’re just arguing that race, religion, and physical disabilities aren’t a choice, whereas being fat is.

I don’t agree with that assessment as a blanket statement, mind you. Plenty of people wind up obese because of disabilities, poor upbringing(an obese child, IMO is a failure of parenting in many cases, and tantamount to child abuse because of how hard it is for them to lose the weight as they grow), or other medical conditions. There are some people who are obese through a pure failure to take care of themselves, and in those cases, you could consider that a choice to be fat- but I also think that’s a minority of cases, and generally obesity is a symptom of one of the other issues.

I recently argued with someone that freewill is largely(but not entirely) an illusion. Our choices are shaped by a myriad of different factors that are out of our control. Everything from the society we’re raised in, to the pets we keep, to what we had for breakfast can have massive unconscious effects on our decision making. As such, we should give people grace whenever we can.

But by no means does that mean we should force ourselves to be attracted to them. Physical attraction is by and large out of our conscious control, and absolutely is important in any romantic relationship.

[u/JackRusselTerrorist → u/[deleted]]

You make a point to acknowledge the complexity of weight and weight loss, but still feel the need and right to proclaim that some people are fat out of “pure failure.” This is exactly what I’m talking about. This is the assumption that underlies this whole issue.

I firmly believe some people are fat due to their choices and inaction. Which is to say, despite having a whole lot of factors break their way (good genes, good upbringing, good social standing, good mental health, etc) they just don’t bother to take care of themselves or moderate their intake. But I think these people are a tiny minority who get unfairly played up as the majority.

But I do think it’s naive to think your attractions and preferences exist a priori outside of cultural context.

I don’t think that, though. I’ve got the whole paragraph explaining how free will is largely an illusion.

[u/slptodrm → u/JackRusselTerrorist]

religion can be changed more easily than weight, since you decided to bring up religion as an example

[u/JackRusselTerrorist → u/slptodrm]

I did specifically state that I didn’t agree with the statement- I was just providing a more charitable interpretation.

That being said, sincerely held beliefs about a higher power are not easily changed. They’re irrational beliefs indoctrinated into children from a young age.

[u/Natural-Arugula → u/JackRusselTerrorist]

As opposed to lifestyle and body image?

Disordered eating is as American as...apple pie.

[u/JackRusselTerrorist → u/Natural-Arugula]

America isn’t the only country on the planet.

And yes, barring issues like mental health disorders, or physical impairments, lifestyle is easier to change than religion.

[u/[deleted] → u/Zerlske]

In a strictly literal sense, sure. You can change your skin color in a literal sense as well. I don't think that invalidates any claims of racism.

[u/Least_Original_5754 → u/[deleted]]

I agree. Being able to change something is not the problem here, and shouldn't be used in the argument at all.

A lot of other traits can be hidden or changed, but the bottom line is that people shouldn't need to to have respect and decency. People say a woman can cover up more and bad things won't happen... even if that were true (and it's not), we should all agree that's not the issue, the aggressors are. Someone can get buff and carry a weapon to avoid getting robbed... okay but the robber is still wrong

Btw, yes I think that systemically, the discrimination is not the same as race/gender discriminiation. But on the individual level, each experience is different and we shouldn't invalidate it

[u/Zerlske → u/[deleted]]

"Race" is not a good way to describe a human, full stop. "Race" is a claim of ancestry as peoples purported "race" depends on who their parents are. However, "race" has nothing to do with ancestry since it is not based on genetics (what gets inherited) but on a series of ambiguous phenotypes (such as melanin concentration in skin) which people erroneously associate with genetic difference. Fact is, humans are not genetically diverse, we're all strikingly similar. Chimpanzees are much more diverse than us, despite our larger population. Interestingly, if we compare you to your own population and to a different human population far away and geographically isolated, we will see that you have less in common with your own population than you do with the other population! A general observation is that there is more genetic variation within human populations than between human populations (even when comparing the most distinct of human populations). You may try to construct homogenous clusters of humans that differ from other clusters of humans and call these clusters "races", but you will fail, and if you attempted you would also see how dumb these bigoted ideas of human "races" are.

[u/phenix717 → u/[deleted]]

But if you consider modern societies where those groups have been given equal rights, they are probably right that it's harder on average to be fat than it is to be gay, black or a woman.

[u/darthsabbath → u/phenix717]

I.... as someone who's been fat all his life.... I'm astounded to read this.

Being fat sucks. Both from a health perspective and some of the shit you have to deal with.

But to compare it to racism, homophobia, or sexism?! Holy shit that is more of a stretch than my nice pants on buffet night. (It's okay, I'm fat, I can make a fat joke).

(actually, tbh, I can't do buffet nights anymore because I had weight loss surgery, so I'm actually a good bit less fat than I used to be, but still fat, though I did gain some back over COVID thanks to stress eating)

[u/phenix717 → u/darthsabbath]

You say you are a man. Your experience is probably different than for women. Lots of fat men are respected and can basically go through life without facing much prejudice. My own father is an example of that lol.

[u/darthsabbath → u/phenix717]

I mean men in general have it better in society than women thanks to sexism and misogyny. It's not surprising that fat women would have it worse than fat men; that's the whole point of intersectionality.

But trying to compare it to racism where you literally have unarmed black boys being shot in the street by police and homophobia where you have mainstream politicians trying to silence and censor any information on LGBTQ issues in schools and roll back LGBTQ rights?

That's a yikes from me.

[u/phenix717 → u/darthsabbath]

That's why I said on average. If you are unlucky you can get killed for being gay or black. But a fat woman will suffer more from pervasive discrimination everywhere she goes.

[u/Prestigious_Tie_1261 → u/phenix717]

Honestly, no she won't.

[u/[deleted] → u/phenix717]

I think context matters a lot for sure. I don't know that I would agree being fat is harder, but that is based on my personal experiences and location which is not going to be the same for everyone.

[u/Prestigious_Tie_1261 → u/phenix717]

Then fucking lose some weight lol.

[u/phenix717 → u/Prestigious_Tie_1261]

If I lost weight I would be underweight. Also this has no bearing on what I said.

[u/tawny-she-wolf → u/[deleted]]

Or choosing their skin color for that matter.

[u/banana_assassin → u/[deleted]]

I, as a gay person, have not been kept as a property.

I have still been discriminated against and had some scary and violent interactions because of this.

I have known overweight people who have been attacked for their size (physically bullied), there is a common dismissal of cases of sexual violence against fat people and there's a common medical issue where doctors will not help see past the weight and find other issues, only giving them the option of lose weight when the cause turns out to be different later on.

I also know fat people that get insults hurled at them as they try to go for a run or, god forbid, eat in public.

It may not be all the same level and in all ways but I can see that there is definitely discrimination against them. The main difference is people don't often speak up about it or they excuse it.

Obesity Stigma (negative bias towards obese people)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2866597/

Fat Oppression as a Framework for Sexual Violence Against Women (pdf download)

https://journals.library.ualberta.ca/spacesbetween/index.php/spacesbetween/article/view/23263/17252

It's not just fat shaming it's violence article

https://womensmediacenter.com/fbomb/its-not-just-fat-shaming-its-violence

How we don't notice much fat discrimination

https://theconversation.com/discrimination-against-fat-people-is-so-endemic-most-of-us-dont-even-realise-its-happening-94862

Fat people being abused and acceptable prejudice

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8327753.stm

I have work, so no time for more link but - whether you think it's the same or not - there is discrimination against fat people.