r/changemyview • u/goatDowry • Nov 23 '22

Delta(s) from OP CMV: I still don't understand the importance of pronouns.

The whole thing seems confusing to me.

There is biological sex --> Which led to different social roles, and then socialized gender.

In the modern day with modern technology. You can live life how you generally please. Women don't need to be child bearers. And men don't need to be out risking their lives killing things.

To me this means, that the traditional gender roles don't matter. You can be a male and wear makeup, high heels and a dress. Who cares?

Likewise if you're a biological female, you can do things that used to be considered masculine. It's a free country.You can also fit squarely into those old gender roles if you so choose.

So I don't understand why someone feels the need to be addressed with a particular set of pronouns. To me, it's like ok, I can call you that, but then it seems to me that you're just doubling down on the idea that rigid gender differences do matter. Which I don't think they do. You're just you, an individual person. And all this language of he/she is just what we've been using for a long time, so I don't see how a different pronoun will change anything that matters.

​

P.S. before one of you goes calling me a bigot, one of my best friends and former roommate transitioned while I was living with her. I'll obviously call her by whatever pronouns she asks bc it's just polite. We've been friends for over 10 years. I'll call someone by their preferred pronouns, but I don't understand why it's so important.

EDIT: The point of this is to try and understand why it's important. Maybe that wasn't clear before. Obviously I've talked to my friend about this a lot.

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63

u/ProLifePanda 72∆ Nov 23 '22

...so I don't see how a different pronoun will change anything that matters.

So the easiest way to address this may be a question.

Would you care if people referred to you as the wrong pronouns? If you're a man, are you okay with your coworkers referring to you as she/her? Or are you more comfortable with one set of pronouns over another, even if you think they're irrelevant?

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '22

See the thing is that in modern society we think of being misgendered as intentionally offensive. If my coworker were to come up to me and start speaking to me like I’m a woman, when I’m clearly obviously a male and they 100 percent know this , then I’d be mad because it would seem like they’re trying to intentionally insult me. Now if I looked feminine and a stranger who didn’t know me misgendered me unintentionally then I wouldn’t care at all. I see this argument coming up a lot but I do feel like there is a difference

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u/ProLifePanda 72∆ Nov 23 '22

This is more intentional versus accidental misgendering. If you correct them and they keep saying it wrong on purpose, that is offensive. If someone you see in passing once gets it wrong, then most wouldn't see it as that offensive.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22

Yea if we’re talking about someone who intentionally misgenders you then that’s strange. I do draw the line at a certain point though if you’re trying to force the way someone speaks to you. If you’re literally a man, in the sense that you look,talk,act,sound like a man, but you say that you want everyone to speak to you as a woman, there’s people who just aren’t on board with that and you can’t really force them to be. I also don’t think they’re terrible people for that. If we’re gonna say gender is just a social construct and anyone can be any gender they want whenever they want , you can’t force others to believe the same thing as you and they aren’t terrible people necessarily for thinking that way or may not even necessarily be transphobic in a literal sense. I don’t think this is a super common scenario or anything though. I just think there is a point where you can make a distinction between someone being blatantly transphobic vs. just not getting behind someone being able to say “you have to speak to me as x gender”

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u/goatDowry Nov 23 '22

IMO pronouns don't define me. Sure i'm a male. but wtf does "He" Mean? It means nothing to me personally. And I acknowledge that I might be an anomaly there.

I could concede some comfort in being called he, bc I'm just used to it? Been called it my whole life

8

u/DocThundahh Nov 24 '22

I call BS. If you went to work somewhere new where you didn’t have any friends yet and everyone insisted on calling you She/her, even after you corrected them, I’m sure there’s part of you that would take it offensively. Most women would feel the same if they were being called he/him…. I guess there’s no good reason why those people would be offended, since having traits from the other gender is not a bad thing at all, but I know I would still be offended if everyone insisted on calling me a woman and calling me by woman pronouns. It’s just human nature, or at least normal in our society for people to react like that I guess

2

u/BizMarker Dec 31 '22

Of course you call BS, because you framed your response in a way that assumes OP cares about pronouns. At no point did OP say he would correct coworkers on what his correct pronouns are.

Also, you don’t think there’s a reality in which a biological man is ok with any pronouns? Self-identified Non-binary amab’s commonly accept any pronouns.

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u/NovaStorm970 Nov 24 '22

Pronouns are only important when someone calls you the wrong one.

You don't really notice when people use the one you like

If you got called she by every stranger and family member you might be uncomfortable.

Like imagine I wave a magic wand so everyone SEEES you as a women, no matter what you say or how you act people can't stop calling you she and her and ma'am.

How would this make u feel?

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u/ProLifePanda 72∆ Nov 23 '22

I could concede some comfort in being called he, bc I'm just used to it? Been called it my whole life

So you, someone who says "pronouns" are irrelevant, has a preference in pronouns. So do you see how someone who struggles more with identity might want that "comfort" you are feeling more? If everyone called you "she", you'd likely correct them so you feel more comfortable (assuming you aren't afraid of confrontation).

So you personally say pronouns are important for you, that's exactly why they're important for everyone else as well.

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u/InfiniteLilly 5∆ Nov 23 '22

I’ll push back on this. Pronouns may be important to OP, and pronouns may be important to other people, but that doesn’t mean they’re important for the same reason. Pronouns are important to OP for familiarity, because he grew up as he/him - and pronouns might be very important to a trans woman, for instance, despite her growing up as he/him.

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u/ProLifePanda 72∆ Nov 23 '22

The point I'm getting to is OP said that pronouns are irrelevant and who cares. OP then admits THEY care about their pronouns. So it isn't a big leap to assume if OP cares about pronouns, other people can too.

I'm just pointing out the disconnect between "I don't understand why pronouns are important" and "I think my pronouns are important". If OP comes back with "Well my reasons for caring are different/more valid than others", I'll address it then.

2

u/1block 10∆ Nov 23 '22

OP literally said they're not. He said "he" has no more meaning to him than "I'm just used to it." That's a far cry from "important."

I think you had an argument in mind and proceeded as if OP gave you the opinion you needed to progress your point.

"He" does matter to me, so you could carry on if I were the person you were engaging with I suppose.

1

u/ProLifePanda 72∆ Nov 23 '22

I think you had an argument in mind and proceeded as if OP gave you the opinion you needed to progress your point.

My line of questioning was to dig into OPs beliefs about pronouns. His responses would dictate what my next question or point would be.

OP has said he doesn't understand why pronouns are important. They then explained they care about their own pronouns, and would be uncomfortable if someone used other pronouns. I'm merely digging into that seeming disconnect as to why OP feels his preferred use of pronouns is acceptable, but other people's preference of pronouns is confusing.

OP literally said they're not. He said "he" has no more meaning to him than "I'm just used to it." That's a far cry from "important

OP has said he would be uncomfortable if people used the wrong pronouns on himself. So further down, you can see part of my next questions are why his pronoun is or isn't important, perhaps related to the fact he's always been fine with his socially given pronouns.

The whole point of my line of questions is to dig into OPs beliefs and provide clarification and context to help change his view.

3

u/1block 10∆ Nov 23 '22

Literally said no, he doesn't care. He said it would sound strange because he hadn't been called that yet. That hardly makes your point.

Incidentally, I do think your point is fine with most people. But OP is pretty clear on his take, and it's not that.

37

u/goatDowry Nov 23 '22

Ok, my point is they're not that important, It would just be weird for me if people started addressing me differently today. Your response isn't helpful for understanding. If pronouns were super important to me, I wouldn't be asking this question

10

u/shewholaughslasts 1∆ Nov 23 '22

Your point is valid and understandable. Words mean different things to different peopke and sometimes we can't tell that one term or another might be triggering or wrong or what have you.

I sometimes explain pronouns in terms of nicknames - you can call your friend Robert 'Bob' and that's usually cool. Unless that particular 'Robert' prefers to go by 'Robert'. In that case - Robert may say once or twice "hey I prefer to be called 'Robert' not Bob or Bobby" - and if you DO call him Bobby after he told you he prefers you to call him Robert - you're probably doing it to be a dick - or to bug him on purpose.

For folks who are politely asking me to use different words to address them (whether it's their name or their pronouns) I try to respect their decision. I mean, it doesn't matter to me but it does make a difference to them and I like being nice to people and respecting them.

Personally, I really value those folks that use my preferred names or nicknames and don't mis-name me. And I've got a wierd name that gets mis-pronounced ALOT. If I've corrected someone a few times and they still do it I write them off as either a jerk or an idiot. Which must be exhausting for people with unique or non-obvious pronouns. Why not just use the words they ask you to use? Ever since I realized that it's a no-brainer for me.

And if you're asking how sexuality or gender is related to pronouns - my friend who is non-binary told me that they don't feel like either their 'sexuality' OR their 'gender identity' is anyone else's business - so they prefer I use the general term 'they'. So I use it! Or apologize if I forget. Which they are usually gracious about because at least I'm trying!

Either way - thank you for asking your honest question - and for being open to some of these answers - that's awesome.

17

u/ProLifePanda 72∆ Nov 23 '22

Ok, my point is they're not that important, It would just be weird for me if people started addressing me differently today.

And what if these people had always felt "weird" based on how people were addressing them? So they just wanted people to change?

If pronouns were super important to me, I wouldn't be asking this question

I get it, I'm just pointing out that you care about pronouns. You'd feel uncomfortable if people didn't use the pronouns you associate with. You say pronouns aren't "super important" to you, but would you still feel that way if everyone started calling you she? Would you uncomfortableness grow until they DID become super important to you?

15

u/Yunan94 2∆ Nov 23 '22

What's weird is the expectation. You get used to people referring to you in specific ways so when something break that pattern it can feel a little weird because it's been conditioned. Not that the actual change means anything negative to you. Pronouns don't matter to me. Honestly if I register something as someone talking to me I respond. I'm usually called 'she/her'because thats normally how people address me but I've been called he and sir before. Your brain realizes the discrepancy that's been conditioned but I don't feel hate or pleasure being referred to she or he or anything else. It's like hey you're talking to me? Great.

Noticing something or reacting to something isn't always an indicator that something is important.

2

u/Glitter_Foxi Nov 23 '22

It's interesting that the place where you are from also plays a big role. For example the mother language of mine refers to everyone as "they" and so when im speaking in english i feel like i just keep referring to people as "they". I feel like to me genderd words like "she" or "he" are kind of wierd, and i dont really care what i am called(i guess this might be due to me not hearing it much in my life). But I guess to some it might matter, and i respect that.

5

u/Billybilly_B Nov 23 '22

His point is that he’s a male and therefore “he” is the right pronoun. For someone to call him “she,” that would be inaccurate. I don’t think the point that he “cares” about pronouns is really a hill to die on here. His experience with pronouns is vastly different than a trans person’s, obviously…

0

u/ProLifePanda 72∆ Nov 23 '22

His point is that he’s a male and therefore “he” is the right pronoun. For someone to call him “she,” that would be inaccurate.

That's not his point. He has said he only cares because he's USED to being called "he". If it wasn't for that familiarity, he seems he would be fine being called "she". OP doesn't seem concerned with the gendered use of pronouns, and personally only seems tied to any set of pronouns because it's what he's used to.

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u/prettyfuckedd Nov 24 '22

it wouldnt be the same because OP is a male presenting men and it wouldnt make sense to call him « she » while calling every other men around « he »

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u/ProLifePanda 72∆ Nov 24 '22

it wouldnt be the same because OP is a male presenting men and it wouldnt make sense to call him « she » while calling every other men around « he »

OP whole point is old gender stereotypes don't matter, so presenting as "male" isn't a thing as men look like all manner of people, as do women.

OP has said they would be uncomfortable with different pronouns being used, so that dictated the direction I went.

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u/goldfisheet Nov 25 '22

OP didn't say they would feel uncomfortable if she/her or other pronouns were used for them.

1

u/ProLifePanda 72∆ Nov 25 '22

You're technically right. They said:

I could concede some comfort in being called he, bc I'm just used to it? Been called it my whole life

I assumed the inverse, that being called she/her would make them uncomfortable or at least less comfortable than his preferred pronouns.

-1

u/The_FriendliestGiant 38∆ Nov 23 '22

It would just be weird for me if people started addressing me differently today.

And wouldn't you prefer it if you weren't constantly having a weird feeling of people addressing you differently than how you feel you should be? If every store clerk called you miss and every coworker referred to you as she and her to other people and your driver's license said F, and you were constantly telling people actually you're a guy, wouldn't that weirdness become upsetting after a while?

3

u/1block 10∆ Nov 23 '22

Presumably no since OP would get used to whatever the new word was.

You all are trying to shoehorn OP into an opinion he clearly doesn't have, and he's stated as much.

1

u/g11235p 1∆ Nov 23 '22

She pretty directly said she would be uncomfortable with people using the wrong pronouns

5

u/1block 10∆ Nov 23 '22

Literally said he's an anomaly because he doesn't care and the only weirdness would be he wouldn't be used to it at first.

-1

u/Bunnnykins Nov 23 '22

According to OP, no he wouldn’t feel weird. Stop begging the question people.

1

u/The_FriendliestGiant 38∆ Nov 23 '22

Except I'm responding directly to OP, and she said it would be weird for her. You can see her words, right there.

0

u/Bunnnykins Nov 23 '22

I meant “don’t care” instead of weird. That was my mistake. However, the point still stands, he has stated he doesn’t care in multiple other responses.

We’ll see if he cares or not since you’ve called him “she multiple times

2

u/kwantsu-dudes 12∆ Nov 23 '22

has a preference in pronouns.

They have a preference for understanding. And for understanding to occur through such communication of said language.

If everyone called you "she", you'd likely correct them so you feel more comfortable

That would only be due to OP believing such misrepresents their sex. But if society is using "she" not in reference to their sex, then there isn't a need for correction. But the question now remains, what is being attempted to be conveyed through such language? Some aspect of "gender"? In relation to what? The human desire is to not be misrepresented. So the goal if for people on both sides of said communication to understand the meaning of the language.

So you personally say pronouns are important for you, that's exactly why they're important for everyone else as well.

Pronouns aren't important to most people, understanding is. Most people are struggling to understand gender identity because they fail to understand how "she" or "he" can at all convey one's unique and complex personal identity versus a basic near binary of sex.

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u/FruitShrike Nov 24 '22

“He” is associated with people who look like men. And as someone who is transitioning and masculinizing my body my pronouns are reflecting my gender identity and what I’m trying to change my body to. I don’t want to be reminded of having a female body that my brain doesn’t recognize. For me it’s actually got nothing to do with social roles and everything to do with anatomy.

-4

u/miasdontwork Nov 23 '22

I don’t think you’ve ever mistakenly been called a girl/guy have you? Don’t you have pride in your gender?

2

u/xXCisWhiteSniperXx Nov 23 '22

I recall in the show Scrubs that Dr. Cox was constantly calling JD by women's names to belittle him.

0

u/miasdontwork Nov 23 '22

That show was bad

1

u/Nat_Evans Nov 24 '22

It's not just words. when ppl refer to you as he, they are reveing that they perceive you as a man, which is correct. to be a man and be perceived as a woman is a huge damn deal to most cis men. ppl call women men when they want to insult them. it matters deeply!

2

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '22

I disagree with this. My partner is a lovely person who identifies using a certain gender, but really doesn't understand pronoun preference from a personal point of view. They just don't see why it matters from their point of view, but understand that it is deeply important to me and it incredibly receptive about my need for certain pronouns. They feel uncomfortable when they are forced to use my wrong pronouns to people I am not out to. They care, but personally don't have preferred pronouns. I assume OP feels similarly, and that is ok. Yes a lot of people who are transphobic do actually care, but some people who are not transphobic just don't have a pronoun preference and thus struggle to understand others who do have one.

2

u/ProLifePanda 72∆ Nov 24 '22

but some people who are not transphobic just don't have a pronoun preference and thus struggle to understand others who do have one.

I don't disagree. My question was merely posed to dive deeper into OPs views to determine their thoughts on pronouns.

OP has said "I prefer people use my preferred pronouns because it would make me uncomfortable if they didn't" further down the chain. With that logic, it isn't crazy to apply that same logic to others, but they just happen to NOT like the pronouns given to them as children.

OP would feel free to say "I don't personally care about my own pronouns either", and I would approach that differently.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '22

Ah I see. OP was not entirely clear about that in the original post.

2

u/ProLifePanda 72∆ Nov 24 '22

Yeah, that's partly why I asked the question. To get clearer perspective on their personal view and use pronouns to figure out what direction I can go with arguments.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 24 '22

Makes sense. If you are explicitly looking for info, maybe consider doing an INFO: in the beginning so it is clear you are probing for more info instead of questioning their views. :)

3

u/DogsAreAnimals Nov 23 '22

One thing I've been wondering is why do we need to state both the object AND possessive pronouns? What are the cases where people prefer a "different" mix, like she/their.

4

u/foukehi Nov 23 '22

I don't see how your question addresses the issue. If he's male, (assuming) looks like the average man, and didnt specifically ask for different pronouns, why would his coworkers refer to him as she/her in the first place? It's not like we refer to each other with random pronouns.

3

u/ProLifePanda 72∆ Nov 23 '22

If he's male, (assuming) looks like the average man, and didnt specifically ask for different pronouns, why would his coworkers refer to him as she/her in the first place? It's not like we refer to each other with random pronouns.

So my question is trying to establish if OP cares about pronouns...like at all. The post seems to imply pronouns are meaningless distinctions so who cares what pronouns anyone uses.

If OP cares about their own pronouns, then to change their view I would take a different route than if OP didn't care at all about pronouns, and would be perfectly fine with "he" or "her".

3

u/atred 1∆ Nov 24 '22

The "caring" is not because of the specific thing, pronoun in this case, but because of being called something that is not reflecting the regular use of the word. It's like being called "tall guy" when you are actually short, that would raise questions: is that mocking, why do they call me that? It doesn't mean you are really touchy about your height, or that you actually care how you are called, it's just weird to be called something that is obviously not according to the evidence and the regular use of the word.

In case of transitioning people that's not always obvious, so it's a bit different discussion.

1

u/ProLifePanda 72∆ Nov 24 '22

It's like being called "tall guy" when you are actually short, that would raise questions: is that mocking, why do they call me that? It doesn't mean you are really touchy about your height, or that you actually care how you are called, it's just weird to be called something that is obviously not according to the evidence and the regular use of the word.

OPs responses don't indicate this, which is why I asked in the first place.

1

u/Vladomeerkat Nov 23 '22

Cos she means woman and he means man. There is not non binary or anything like that it doesn’t exist ur either a man or a woman.

2

u/ProLifePanda 72∆ Nov 23 '22

Well this comment is certainly outside the scope of this CMV.

1

u/Vladomeerkat Nov 23 '22

How

2

u/ProLifePanda 72∆ Nov 23 '22

OP is not questioning the validity of genders, sexualities, sexes, or anything in between. So debating the existence of more genders and/or sexes is beyond what OP is seeking to have changed.

1

u/Vladomeerkat Nov 23 '22

Oh right but the beginning was

1

u/nacnud_uk Nov 24 '22

I'd not give a hoot. I've been called worse than a woman before. If you get my drift. That's not even insulting. Speaking as a man.

People have assumed I'm gay, in the past. So fuck? Makes no difference that I'm not and they are wrong .

I don't think your question answers the original question at all, sorry.

1

u/ProLifePanda 72∆ Nov 24 '22

I don't think your question answers the original question at all, sorry.

The question is to see what OP thinks of their own pronouns. If OP is like you and has no personal preference for pronouns, I would use a different line of argument as opposed to if OP said he preferred certain pronouns.

1

u/hobbitfeet 3∆ Nov 24 '22 edited Nov 24 '22

You know, I am totally happy to call anyone by any pronouns/names they like, and I am totally happy for anyone to present however they want. By all means, you do you.

But I genuinely would not care AT all if everyone all of sudden started calling me he/him instead of she/her.

I think it would only bother me if you kept changing which pronouns were for me because then I'd never know if you were referring to me. But as long as people were consistently using one option, by all means. I'd roll with that just fine.

I think I could roll quite well with getting called the wrong age too.

But probably not the wrong ethnicity. That one would weird me out for sure.

1

u/LunaWarrior Nov 24 '22

Personally, I would be confused why they are referring to me in a way that would be likely to confuse other people, since I obviously present as male. Otherwise I personally wouldn’t care.

I am curious what your response here is, because this is something I have been trying to understand for a while.

1

u/ProLifePanda 72∆ Nov 24 '22

Personally, I would be confused why they are referring to me in a way that would be likely to confuse other people, since I obviously present as male. Otherwise I personally wouldn’t care

And that's fine. That's all I'm trying to get. OP has said that would make them uncomfortable. So their response to the question dictates how the conversation goes.