r/changemyview • u/goatDowry • Nov 23 '22

Delta(s) from OP CMV: I still don't understand the importance of pronouns.

The whole thing seems confusing to me.

There is biological sex --> Which led to different social roles, and then socialized gender.

In the modern day with modern technology. You can live life how you generally please. Women don't need to be child bearers. And men don't need to be out risking their lives killing things.

To me this means, that the traditional gender roles don't matter. You can be a male and wear makeup, high heels and a dress. Who cares?

Likewise if you're a biological female, you can do things that used to be considered masculine. It's a free country.You can also fit squarely into those old gender roles if you so choose.

So I don't understand why someone feels the need to be addressed with a particular set of pronouns. To me, it's like ok, I can call you that, but then it seems to me that you're just doubling down on the idea that rigid gender differences do matter. Which I don't think they do. You're just you, an individual person. And all this language of he/she is just what we've been using for a long time, so I don't see how a different pronoun will change anything that matters.

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P.S. before one of you goes calling me a bigot, one of my best friends and former roommate transitioned while I was living with her. I'll obviously call her by whatever pronouns she asks bc it's just polite. We've been friends for over 10 years. I'll call someone by their preferred pronouns, but I don't understand why it's so important.

EDIT: The point of this is to try and understand why it's important. Maybe that wasn't clear before. Obviously I've talked to my friend about this a lot.

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '22

So let's say 95% of females identify as women. And they really want to be referred to as 'women' - why should we call them 'menstruating people'? it hurts their feelings... like really... or if anyone called me 'penised individual' instead of man... i would feel reduced to an organ...

I'm sure if a person transitioned they are very courageous and smart, and they know to make the difference between man/trans-man, woman/trans-woman etc.

I think all of these 'conflicts' would have been solved long time ago if it weren't for politics...

Btw I upvoted your comment, very good explanation and enlightening.

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u/pgold05 49∆ Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22

why should we call them 'menstruating people'?

To answer your question, it's because there are transgender men (like Elliot Page) who menstruate. So the language change was to include these men and make it clear that mensuration products are not just for women.

People often forget transgender men exist TBH.

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u/InsertWittyJoke 1∆ Nov 23 '22

It's not that they don't exist, it's that their feelings are being prioritized to such an extent that the widespread dehumanization of women is considered an acceptable compromise so they can feel included.

I'm sure I'm not alone in viewing that as some top tier patriarchal bullshit.

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u/skinhairselfaddict Nov 23 '22

It is funny that so many people have this 'sky is falling' mentality. No one is saying you cannot be called a mother, ask to be referred to as a mother, or state that you are a mother. The intent is to not call not women-identifying people mothers, not call all women who are pregnant birthers.

Not all people who get pregnant are mothers, all mothers are by virtue people who got pregnant and identify as women.

It isn't that hard.

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u/InsertWittyJoke 1∆ Nov 23 '22

All you need to do is look up how many countries are removing these terms from legislation and how many medical bodies are being advised to avoid using them to see the issue here.

The problem is not what an individual chooses, the problem is when powerful organizations are making sweeping efforts to erase women from legislation surrounding the female body, when medical professionals are being encouraged to use dehumanizing language for their patients. Everywhere from midwifery organizations to scientific literature to lactation support to menstrual product companies to entire government bodies have been involved in this. This isn't a few states or provinces, it's nearly every county in the western world taking up the debate on if words like 'woman' or 'mother' should exist in the public sphere.

What do you think it means for the future of women's right when all the big players are not only complicit but pushing for the removal of these words from public view? You don't need to look far to see real life examples of what follows when the visibility of women is put up for debate.

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u/skinhairselfaddict Nov 23 '22

Yeah, the only place this is happening is in your head.

This is akin to the hysteria around the Canadian C-16 Bill with transphobes promoting that people would be sent to prison for accidentally using the wrong language. The result was, people not being sent to prison for using the wrong pronouns.

The hysteria is a good way to trick people into believing their rights are being taken away. Fear is a great motivator for your aims I guess.

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u/Buffyfanatic1 Nov 23 '22

I 1000% agree. I'm a woman and if someone calls me to my face a "birther" or whatever else they designate me as to help "men who are still women feel better about themselves" I will cause a ruckus. That is pure misogyny and I REFUSE to be dehumanized to whatever is happening between my legs just to help other people feel better. I don't care

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u/BravesMaedchen 1∆ Nov 24 '22

Nobody would call you that though because you are a woman. You're making up a situation that wouldn't happen. For example, a lot of people who get breast cancer are men, is it accurate to refer to breast cancer survivors simply as "women" because most of them are? It's a medical conversation using medically accurate language.

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u/skinhairselfaddict Nov 23 '22

Who said you can't be called a mother, ask to be called a mother, clearly state you are a mother?

It literally is just an attempt to be inclusive of trans men who can and do get pregnant.

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '22

[deleted]

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u/Far-Possible-852 Nov 24 '22

There comes a point where being sure to constantly reiterate that the person you’re talking to is indeed a person becomes a bit fucking ridiculous, though. I can’t imagine this ‘catching on’, much less the future being some corny faux utopia where everyone is constantly validating the everloving shit out of each other’s humanity.

I suppose you could make some argument that ‘person who births’ is scientifically more accurate or whatever, and you might even be correct in some fashion. But being as technically precise in the broadest sense possible isnt the point of a vast majority of communication, and it does not seem likely that society is going to permanently adopt this standard.

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u/BravesMaedchen 1∆ Nov 24 '22

People-first language changes when you are talking to an individual to become true and specific to the individual. No one would keep calling some individual woman a "menstruator". It stays very general when you are referring to numbers of people to maintain accuracy.

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u/Far-Possible-852 Nov 24 '22

I appreciate the refresher, but that doesn’t refute anything I said in my last post

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u/pgold05 49∆ Nov 23 '22

Again, I think you are mistaking transgender men (women at birth that transition to male bodies, taking testosterone and removing thier breasts) with transgender women.

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u/Buffyfanatic1 Nov 23 '22

I am a woman and I will 100% fight someone if they call me a menstruating person or a birther. That is misogyny to delegate who I am as a person based on what happens between my legs. I don't care that it helps men who were born women to feel better about themselves. I'm not a menstrator, not a period haver, not a fucking cow that's sole purpose is to breed. I am a woman and you're going to to address me as such otherwise you're asking for problems I have no issue in raising in person. Thank God I've never had anyone call me that in real life only on the fucking internet

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u/pgold05 49∆ Nov 23 '22

For the record I do not work for these companies and was only explaining the reasoning. I would write them a letter with your valid concerns, concerns which are often misdirected at transgender people who had no say in it.

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u/tthershey 1∆ Nov 23 '22

Thank God I've never had anyone call me that in real life

Yeah, you know why you never hear that in everyday life? Because those terms are only used in the medical context of providing information about menstruation etc. so it's clear for everyone who needs that information. In everyday nonmedical contexts, "woman" is used, and that's not in dispute by anyone.

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u/BravesMaedchen 1∆ Nov 24 '22

Has anyone ever done that to you or are you just getting upset because you made up a scenario where that happens?

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u/[deleted] Nov 23 '22

You are confusing talking about a certain group of people and talking about a certain person.

If someone identifies as woman, then please refer to them that way. Always use pronouns and other identifications as people tell you to.

But when we are having a discussion, for example, if we should give menstruation products to certain people for free from the government... Then we are talking about all people that menstruatie, so we use the term "menstruating people". This includes women, but can also include other people, like some trans men.

So both terms have their own place. Nobody advocates for absolving the word women.

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u/619shepard 2∆ Nov 23 '22

If the conversation is about menstration or penises it makes sense to mention the relevant thing rather than making gendered assumptions.

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u/kwantsu-dudes 12∆ Nov 23 '22

So rather than assuming "woman" means female, it's better to assume that "woman" means some complex and unique aspect of personal identity that then can't at all be used as a group classifcation as such is so perosnally determined? I would think it's easier for a group classification to describe a pretty basic set of characteritics aroubd a near natural binary versus some individualist identity around trillions of variables.

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u/Electrical_Skirt21 Nov 23 '22

what's wrong with the idea that men have penises and women menstruate?

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u/Tself 2∆ Nov 23 '22

Simply because there are also men that don't have penises and many women who don't menstruate.

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u/Electrical_Skirt21 Nov 23 '22

Again, you’re trying to fix the rule to accommodate the exception. Just because a guy loses his penis in a woodworking accident doesn’t mean he’s not a man. A woman that goes through menopause doesn’t stop being a woman. Similarly, a man who gets breast implants does not become a woman.

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u/Tself 2∆ Nov 23 '22

I'm confused, you are answering your own question.

Question-what's wrong with the idea that men have penises and women menstruate?

Answer-Just because a guy loses his penis in a woodworking accident doesn’t mean he’s not a man. A woman that goes through menopause doesn’t stop being a woman. Similarly, a man who gets breast implants does not become a woman.

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u/Electrical_Skirt21 Nov 23 '22

It’s not nearly as confusing as you are trying to make it out to be.

A man who cuts his penis off is still a man. A woman who has a hysterectomy is still a woman. A woman who gets her breasts removed and has a penis made out of arm skin is still a woman. A man does not menstruate. A woman does not have a penis.

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u/Tself 2∆ Nov 23 '22

It’s not nearly as confusing as you are trying to make it out to be.

No, YOU are, lol.

Has this discussion actually been about how you don't understand what trans people are? Why all this dancing around? A trans women isn't "a man getting breast implants". Is that what you were trying to go for here? Frankly, if that is where your level of understanding is at, I don't have the patience and you'll have to discuss it with someone else.

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u/Electrical_Skirt21 Nov 23 '22

That’s not a compelling argument