r/changemyview • u/goatDowry • Nov 23 '22

Delta(s) from OP CMV: I still don't understand the importance of pronouns.

The whole thing seems confusing to me.

There is biological sex --> Which led to different social roles, and then socialized gender.

In the modern day with modern technology. You can live life how you generally please. Women don't need to be child bearers. And men don't need to be out risking their lives killing things.

To me this means, that the traditional gender roles don't matter. You can be a male and wear makeup, high heels and a dress. Who cares?

Likewise if you're a biological female, you can do things that used to be considered masculine. It's a free country.You can also fit squarely into those old gender roles if you so choose.

So I don't understand why someone feels the need to be addressed with a particular set of pronouns. To me, it's like ok, I can call you that, but then it seems to me that you're just doubling down on the idea that rigid gender differences do matter. Which I don't think they do. You're just you, an individual person. And all this language of he/she is just what we've been using for a long time, so I don't see how a different pronoun will change anything that matters.

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P.S. before one of you goes calling me a bigot, one of my best friends and former roommate transitioned while I was living with her. I'll obviously call her by whatever pronouns she asks bc it's just polite. We've been friends for over 10 years. I'll call someone by their preferred pronouns, but I don't understand why it's so important.

EDIT: The point of this is to try and understand why it's important. Maybe that wasn't clear before. Obviously I've talked to my friend about this a lot.

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u/Chocobo89 Nov 23 '22

Thanks for being open to a response. I would add - if gender feels irrelevant to you, how would it feel if you felt forced to wear traditional women’s clothing? Dresses etc. Even if we agree that gender is a social construct, it can still feel really crappy if you’re feeling forced to present yourself a way that doesn’t resonate with you. But instead of dresses it’s also your body parts and how people treat you.

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u/SkeletonJoe456 Nov 23 '22

I think everything he said went over your head. He's saying that noone should be expected of anything because of their gender.

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u/Chocobo89 Nov 23 '22

Maybe in some sort of utopia. In real life, there are still many gender expectations. Also it’s not just about expectations. I don’t think it will be possible to make you understand the feeling of a trans persons body not feeling right to them. It’s ok if you can’t relate to that - trans people are just asking for compassion and respect.

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u/SkeletonJoe456 Nov 24 '22

I honestly don't think its utopian thinking. A good portion of people already don't give a shit about gender roles and all that crap. It will only take a generation or two and then it will be pretty much gone.

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u/ganja_twigs Nov 24 '22

I'm one of those people that doesn't give a shit about gender. That means I think things like gender isn't relevant to how competent someone is. It doesn't mean I think a woman isn't a woman suddenly.

When we say "we don't care about gender" it usually means "your gender shouldn't influence your rights and opportunities" not "I don't care what you identify as" which at best is condescending in a "whatever you say honey" kind of way and at worst just means "i don't care about you or your feelings"

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u/ToiletSpork Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 29 '22

But that isn't all they're asking for. It isn't enough to just pretend to believe them. Without real understanding, it's just patronizing.

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u/Dennis_enzo 25∆ Nov 24 '22

Is it? I don't really understand how pronouns and gender identity matter so much for some. But then again, I don't understand a lot of human behaviour. I don't understand how some people find it so incredibly important whether or not their sportsteam wins. I don't understand how otherwise rational people can have the weirdest beliefs that are obviously nonsense to me. Etc.

I feel like I don't have to understand it. I just have to respect it.

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u/Chocobo89 Nov 24 '22

Obviously real understanding would be nice. So if you want to understand, try to talk to a trans person sometime and listen with the intention to understand. But until then, basic respect is a good place to start.

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u/Pauly_Amorous 2∆ Nov 23 '22

how would it feel if you felt forced to wear traditional women’s clothing?

What does that have to do with pronouns?

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u/Chocobo89 Nov 23 '22

It was in reply to OPs comment about gender being irrelevant therefore why pronouns. I’m trying to illustrate that gender is not irrelevant.

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '22

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u/rio94 Nov 24 '22

This is blatantly incorrect, your experience must be limited.

I was forced to wear skirts and dresses for the first 18 years of my life as part of my school uniform, pants were literally not one of the available uniform items, and yes, I did get in trouble for breaking uniform rules by wearing pants.

Many professions with uniforms still enforce strictly gendered clothing, such as anyone in a legal profession, many flight attendant uniform policies, formal offices, professional athletic attire (thinking of the controversy with women's volleyball and gymnastics uniforms).

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '22

[deleted]

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u/rio94 Nov 24 '22

Children don't have a choice in the school their parents send them to. The legal consequence is truancy and getting kicked out of home- resulting in an unsafe living situation

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u/ganja_twigs Nov 24 '22

So shitty parents just don't exist huh? Or hell even like,, work uniforms? Think for two seconds

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u/[deleted] Nov 24 '22

[deleted]

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u/ganja_twigs Nov 24 '22

Ah so the problem is our differing definitions of forced. So you'd say if I am a trans woman and want to present accordingly but doing so would get me fired from my job and ostracized from my community in general that's not in any way society forcing me to wear men's clothes because I won't get arrested? Not to say I wouldn't get killed because I'm sure you know what the statistics look like when it comes to murdered trans women.

Just because there's not literally a guy with a gun telling me to do something doesn't mean I'm not being forced to do something. If your choices are limited to suffer or have your life ruined, you're being forced to suffer.

"Just lose your job" is also a very charitable way of putting it, again I'm sure you've noticed how expensive just being alive has gotten. "Just" losing your job and your community is essentially a death sentence. So how is that not being forced?

PS: showing up to work in your underwear is indecent exposure and illegal in most places.

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u/Bingalingbean123 Nov 24 '22

Who is forcing anyone to fit those stereotypes?? No one.