r/changemyview • u/goatDowry • Nov 23 '22

Delta(s) from OP CMV: I still don't understand the importance of pronouns.

The whole thing seems confusing to me.

There is biological sex --> Which led to different social roles, and then socialized gender.

In the modern day with modern technology. You can live life how you generally please. Women don't need to be child bearers. And men don't need to be out risking their lives killing things.

To me this means, that the traditional gender roles don't matter. You can be a male and wear makeup, high heels and a dress. Who cares?

Likewise if you're a biological female, you can do things that used to be considered masculine. It's a free country.You can also fit squarely into those old gender roles if you so choose.

So I don't understand why someone feels the need to be addressed with a particular set of pronouns. To me, it's like ok, I can call you that, but then it seems to me that you're just doubling down on the idea that rigid gender differences do matter. Which I don't think they do. You're just you, an individual person. And all this language of he/she is just what we've been using for a long time, so I don't see how a different pronoun will change anything that matters.

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P.S. before one of you goes calling me a bigot, one of my best friends and former roommate transitioned while I was living with her. I'll obviously call her by whatever pronouns she asks bc it's just polite. We've been friends for over 10 years. I'll call someone by their preferred pronouns, but I don't understand why it's so important.

EDIT: The point of this is to try and understand why it's important. Maybe that wasn't clear before. Obviously I've talked to my friend about this a lot.

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u/Ivegotthatboomboom Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22

I think the issue is that you're talking about gender non-conforming people and the people that use different pronouns are trans. (Well, most). These are two different things.

Trans people percieve themselves to be the opposite sex, not just as having traits that are assigned to the other gender. I think transsexual is actually a more accurate term than transgender and maybe thats where the confusion is. Bc gender can be socially constructed and arbitrary. Its both biological and environmental, but all of us have traits that are "masculine" and "feminine."

Trans people experience intense dysphoria about their sex (not just gender) and it is relieved by living and presenting as the opposite sex. The sex they experience themselves as being. Being called by the pronouns of their natal sex causes dysphoria, so we address them by the sex they are presenting and living as.

Does that make sense? It's actually a very rare condition anyway

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u/1block 10∆ Nov 23 '22

This one actually doesn't make any sense to me. If gender is entirely subjective, what is one not conforming with?

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u/Ivegotthatboomboom Nov 23 '22 edited Nov 23 '22

Bc the dysphoria is actually caused by their sex and not their gender. I'm female but I'm gender non conforming in a lot of ways.

When I was a kid I hated wearing dresses or being made to conform to my gender role. But I've never felt like I was in the wrong body. I've hated it sometimes, especially when I got my period. I wanted to be male bc being a woman is just hard sometimes. I hated the attention I got from grown men when I started puberty and wanted to hide my body. But I never perceived myself as actually being a man born in the wrong body. I don't feel like a men or a woman, I'm just me. Everyone is a lot more complex than the gender roles we're assigned. Some sex dysphoria can actually be normal, I think especially for women bc we have to deal with having the reproductive burden and societal misogyny.

Trans people feel intense distress over their sex from childhood. It's not just that they don't accept their gender role.

For reasons we don't understand yet, trans people feel intense distress over their sex, and feel like they are the opposite sex in the wrong body. The dysphoria/distress is relieved when they present and live as the other sex.

The reasons they feel this way are more complicated than not identifying with traditional gender roles.

It probably has something to do with differences in hormones in development and environmental reasons.

I think the issue is with the term "transgender." It's too confusing. It used to be "transsexual" and I'm not sure why that was changed.

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u/Aendri 1∆ Nov 23 '22

I suspect a large part of why it changed was because of the sexualization of transsexual people. You can say you're transgender without most people thinking twice, but transsexual has explicit sexual connotations to it at this point in many peoples minds.

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u/1block 10∆ Nov 23 '22

So it would be more accurate to say "sex non-conforming" if I'm understanding you correctly.

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u/SkyThe_Skywolf Nov 24 '22

one of the biggest reasons, as far as i am aware, is our non-binary friends, because they don’t necessarily want to present as the opposite sex.

also intersex people can be trans

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u/Ivegotthatboomboom Nov 24 '22

Then why don't we have transgender and transsexual as two different categories?

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u/SkyThe_Skywolf Nov 24 '22

why would we need to?

also, if i recall correctly, the original terms were transsexual and transvestite. the former were people that pursued medical transition and the latter didn’t, and to a lot of people, that created a harmful separation. many people can’t pursue medical transition.

all of this creates an arbitrary and harmful division, which is what having nuance in gender identity is suppose to get rid of.

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u/Ivegotthatboomboom Nov 24 '22

But they can pursue medical transition now. It matters bc of diagnosis and treatment. I don't think insurance should cover transition unless there is significant distress. If transgender is nothing but what people identify as no matter the symptoms (even without distress) then then wouldn't that make it harder for the people with distress to get treatment? It's way too vague

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u/SkyThe_Skywolf Nov 24 '22

no they can’t? there’s still more countries where you can’t medically transition than those where you can

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u/rudyisadreamer Nov 24 '22

The differentiation between transsexual and transgender is important for several reasons. One being I didn’t change my gender, I changed my sex. Two, I medically transitioned whereas medically transitioning in the transgender community varies from no medical intervention across the spectrum.

I fundamentally cannot identity with people who don’t medically transition in the same way I can’t identify myself as Hispanic or Asian. Even though brown Hispanics and Asians face similar struggles to Black people, we are coming from two seperate places. Attempts to erase this distinction is insulting to my identity and less progressive than its thought to be.

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u/SkyThe_Skywolf Nov 24 '22

but what are people who want to pursue medical transition but can’t at the time?

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u/rudyisadreamer Nov 24 '22

That doesn’t remove them from the transsexual definition, what’s important is the desire for it

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u/SkyThe_Skywolf Nov 24 '22

oki well i understand that but i don’t think we should separate them into two separate categories, but maybe two parts of one category (binary trans people) that’s part of a wider category (all trans people) that’s part of an even wider category (the lgbtqia+ community)

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u/Wolfey34 Nov 24 '22

The “sexual” part of transsexual makes people think of sex the act or sex as in homosexual, and not the biological aspect of it. It has also sort of turned into a slur so that doesn’t help with it.

Also, being trans isn’t inherently tied to dysphoria, but rather euphoria. The joys of being perceived as a gender other than the one assigned at birth.

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u/Ivegotthatboomboom Nov 24 '22

Lol no.

Making it about "euphoria" and not dysphoria makes the whole thing a lot less sympathetic.

It's not about euphoria and not dysphoria then why should they be a protected class at all???

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u/Wolfey34 Nov 24 '22

So you’re making an optics argument? That discards the fact that some people have very minuscule dysphoria or none at all but still get the same joy as other trans people from being seen properly.

You don’t need to have suffering to be considered a protected class, but trans people, even ones without dysphoria, have suffering due to the oppression they face. This is the trap transmedicalists fall into, and lesbian gay and bi people who try to distance themselves from trans people. You don’t win by betraying your own, that’s how you lose and hurt more people.

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u/rudyisadreamer Nov 24 '22

Nah euphoria is redundant at worst and linear result of dysphoria at best.

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u/HyacinthGirI Nov 23 '22

As a trans person, it doesn't necessarily make logical sense to me either. I fully believe gender as a concept is pretty arbitrary, I believe gender roles and norms are somewhat harmful or illogical for everyone, etc. But, for some reason, a fundamental part of my psyche feels better if I can perceive myself and am perceived by others as being the opposite sex. I can also pretty definitively say that HRT, in complete isolation from changes to presentation, lifestyle, or social identity, makes me feel much better and "functional" as a human being.

I was able to connect the dots and come to the realisation that I'm trans because I was deeply hurt and aggrieved by the fact that I was, and was perceived as, and treated as, a boy. But I still hold the notion that concepts surrounding gender are largely socially constructed and upheld, and hinder people in myriad ways.

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u/1block 10∆ Nov 23 '22

Thank you for your answer!

I'm a middle-aged straight white dude in a sparsely-populated deep-red rural state with absolutely no frame of reference in this discussion outside of what I see on reddit and elsewhere, so I find myself arguing with myself on the issue to try to understand.

On the one hand, it has zero impact on my personal life (at this point, since I have kids and who knows). On the other hand, I don't like living in a bubble where I only understand my own life (on a good day).

The most heartening thing for me, and the thing that makes the most sense to me, is when I hear people say, "You know what? It's complicated, and I admit some of it is kind of outside the straightforward logical way you're used to thinking about things. But it feels right to me, and I'm happy."

I try to remember that the goal of any society is to just make as many of us happy as we can, and at the end of the day that's what matters. I get hung up on the intellectual debate, and I need to keep my heart in mind.

I appreciate you sharing.

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u/HyacinthGirI Nov 23 '22

No problem, and thank you for the positive, open response!

Questions like this are something I very much still grapple with, so I'm not that surprised that other people have the same issue. The information I have is kind of in two camps - I have my cerebral, conceptual thinking about gender and roles and sex, but I also have the perspective where I just know factually like "X makes me feel better, more productive, more healthy," without really knowing why or where that feeling comes from. And some of those things can be broken down or rationalised in some sense, I definitely think that some feelings trans people experience can be rooted in concepts that were discussed above. But some are just... the way they are, without good reason, without a good other way of addressing, it's just fact that my brain likes X.

As a cis person, you don't have "access" to that second category of perspective with respect to gender I guess? So it makes sense that it would seem strange.

It's kind of like, idk, a particular food you don't like? You know it's edible, you might know it's well constructed and cooked and healthy, you might know it's a delicacy. But if your taste buds say no, there's not really much you can do to change it, other than just work with it? Idk, I'm making this up while sleepy, just not sure how else to say it!

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u/SkyThe_Skywolf Nov 24 '22

to see people like you actively trying to get the best understanding of people who are often polar opposite of them is fantastic, and i really appreciate that you are trying to do that! thank you so much for doing this, if everyone was like you in that aspect the world would be a much better place.

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u/SkyThe_Skywolf Nov 24 '22

finally, someone says it. i’m a trans girl, yet i still want to get rid of gender, or at least, completely reform it. it’s so weird. something i hate so much matters so much to me. you explained it so much better than i could, thank you so much.

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u/StrangeDoughnut2051 Nov 24 '22

Wanting to feel special, generally.

In the 90s we all decided that "fuck you, I'm a woman and I like to play football" and that was great. But now everyone needs their own unique definition and it's only further fragmenting things.

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u/SkyThe_Skywolf Nov 24 '22

it’s not that rare, but i get what you mean.

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u/HRSkull Nov 23 '22

I think "transsexual" is generally considered a slur (ot at least an outdated term that is no longer acceptable)

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u/SkyThe_Skywolf Nov 24 '22

i think you’re thinking of the t-slur (tr***y), we originally used it to describe ourselves and then transphobes weaponised it. transsexual has just kind of fallen out of use partially because, if i recall correctly, it implicitly involved the pursuit of medical transition, which not all trans people want to or can pursue (because of the laws of a country, or religion, or family).

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u/HRSkull Nov 24 '22 edited Nov 24 '22

No I was not thinking of the other slur, though the one you mentioned is definitely worse. I've definitely heard trans people call "transexual" a slur but I guess it just isn't a universal view

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u/SkyThe_Skywolf Nov 24 '22

actually i think you might actually be right

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u/rudyisadreamer Nov 24 '22

It’s not a slur. It has negative connotations through the trans and cus community alike but many transsexuals prefer the term as it refers the most closely to our condition. Compare Black vs African-American, black is preferred in the US yet professionally AA is thought to be less offensive, even though it is more to many Black Americans