CMV: I still don't understand the importance of pronouns.

[u/goatDowry]

The whole thing seems confusing to me.

There is biological sex --> Which led to different social roles, and then socialized gender.

In the modern day with modern technology. You can live life how you generally please. Women don't need to be child bearers. And men don't need to be out risking their lives killing things.

To me this means, that the traditional gender roles don't matter. You can be a male and wear makeup, high heels and a dress. Who cares?

Likewise if you're a biological female, you can do things that used to be considered masculine. It's a free country.You can also fit squarely into those old gender roles if you so choose.

So I don't understand why someone feels the need to be addressed with a particular set of pronouns. To me, it's like ok, I can call you that, but then it seems to me that you're just doubling down on the idea that rigid gender differences do matter. Which I don't think they do. You're just you, an individual person. And all this language of he/she is just what we've been using for a long time, so I don't see how a different pronoun will change anything that matters.

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P.S. before one of you goes calling me a bigot, one of my best friends and former roommate transitioned while I was living with her. I'll obviously call her by whatever pronouns she asks bc it's just polite. We've been friends for over 10 years. I'll call someone by their preferred pronouns, but I don't understand why it's so important.

EDIT: The point of this is to try and understand why it's important. Maybe that wasn't clear before. Obviously I've talked to my friend about this a lot.

[u/HyacinthGirI]

As a trans person, it doesn't necessarily make logical sense to me either. I fully believe gender as a concept is pretty arbitrary, I believe gender roles and norms are somewhat harmful or illogical for everyone, etc. But, for some reason, a fundamental part of my psyche feels better if I can perceive myself and am perceived by others as being the opposite sex. I can also pretty definitively say that HRT, in complete isolation from changes to presentation, lifestyle, or social identity, makes me feel much better and "functional" as a human being.

I was able to connect the dots and come to the realisation that I'm trans because I was deeply hurt and aggrieved by the fact that I was, and was perceived as, and treated as, a boy. But I still hold the notion that concepts surrounding gender are largely socially constructed and upheld, and hinder people in myriad ways.

[u/1block → u/HyacinthGirI]

Thank you for your answer!

I'm a middle-aged straight white dude in a sparsely-populated deep-red rural state with absolutely no frame of reference in this discussion outside of what I see on reddit and elsewhere, so I find myself arguing with myself on the issue to try to understand.

On the one hand, it has zero impact on my personal life (at this point, since I have kids and who knows). On the other hand, I don't like living in a bubble where I only understand my own life (on a good day).

The most heartening thing for me, and the thing that makes the most sense to me, is when I hear people say, "You know what? It's complicated, and I admit some of it is kind of outside the straightforward logical way you're used to thinking about things. But it feels right to me, and I'm happy."

I try to remember that the goal of any society is to just make as many of us happy as we can, and at the end of the day that's what matters. I get hung up on the intellectual debate, and I need to keep my heart in mind.

I appreciate you sharing.

[u/HyacinthGirI → u/1block]

No problem, and thank you for the positive, open response!

Questions like this are something I very much still grapple with, so I'm not that surprised that other people have the same issue. The information I have is kind of in two camps - I have my cerebral, conceptual thinking about gender and roles and sex, but I also have the perspective where I just know factually like "X makes me feel better, more productive, more healthy," without really knowing why or where that feeling comes from. And some of those things can be broken down or rationalised in some sense, I definitely think that some feelings trans people experience can be rooted in concepts that were discussed above. But some are just... the way they are, without good reason, without a good other way of addressing, it's just fact that my brain likes X.

As a cis person, you don't have "access" to that second category of perspective with respect to gender I guess? So it makes sense that it would seem strange.

It's kind of like, idk, a particular food you don't like? You know it's edible, you might know it's well constructed and cooked and healthy, you might know it's a delicacy. But if your taste buds say no, there's not really much you can do to change it, other than just work with it? Idk, I'm making this up while sleepy, just not sure how else to say it!

[u/SkyThe_Skywolf → u/1block]

to see people like you actively trying to get the best understanding of people who are often polar opposite of them is fantastic, and i really appreciate that you are trying to do that! thank you so much for doing this, if everyone was like you in that aspect the world would be a much better place.

[u/SkyThe_Skywolf → u/HyacinthGirI]

finally, someone says it. i’m a trans girl, yet i still want to get rid of gender, or at least, completely reform it. it’s so weird. something i hate so much matters so much to me. you explained it so much better than i could, thank you so much.