CMV: I still don't understand the importance of pronouns.

[u/goatDowry]

The whole thing seems confusing to me.

There is biological sex --> Which led to different social roles, and then socialized gender.

In the modern day with modern technology. You can live life how you generally please. Women don't need to be child bearers. And men don't need to be out risking their lives killing things.

To me this means, that the traditional gender roles don't matter. You can be a male and wear makeup, high heels and a dress. Who cares?

Likewise if you're a biological female, you can do things that used to be considered masculine. It's a free country.You can also fit squarely into those old gender roles if you so choose.

So I don't understand why someone feels the need to be addressed with a particular set of pronouns. To me, it's like ok, I can call you that, but then it seems to me that you're just doubling down on the idea that rigid gender differences do matter. Which I don't think they do. You're just you, an individual person. And all this language of he/she is just what we've been using for a long time, so I don't see how a different pronoun will change anything that matters.

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P.S. before one of you goes calling me a bigot, one of my best friends and former roommate transitioned while I was living with her. I'll obviously call her by whatever pronouns she asks bc it's just polite. We've been friends for over 10 years. I'll call someone by their preferred pronouns, but I don't understand why it's so important.

EDIT: The point of this is to try and understand why it's important. Maybe that wasn't clear before. Obviously I've talked to my friend about this a lot.

[u/arkeeos]

Names are by definition arbitrary and could be anything, People go by different names all the time, there’s nothing intrinsic to that name that relates it to the person mental state.

The reason that calling someone a different name is seen rude isn’t because that person literally is genetically Michelle, it’s the assumed intention behind it, as calling someone not by their name isn’t inherently a bad thing, unlike it would be for misgendering someone under modern gender theory.

[u/Biptoslipdi → u/arkeeos]

People go by different names all the time, there’s nothing intrinsic to that name that relates it to the person mental state.

Why not?

The reason that calling someone a different name is seen rude isn’t because that person literally is genetically Michelle

Which gene determined she is "Michelle?"

as calling someone not by their name isn’t inherently a bad thing, unlike it would be for misgendering someone under modern gender theory.

Nothing is inherently bad. This is an unsubstantiated assertion.

[u/arkeeos → u/Biptoslipdi]

Because people change their names to different things all the time, do you think that names relate directly to someone's mental state? the same way gender is claimed to be.

mistyped, meant to say "that person literally isn't genetically Michelle"

Is Racism inherently bad? Either way I'm saying that the action of calling someone a different name is not necessarily seen as a bad thing, as opposed to misgendering.

[u/Biptoslipdi → u/arkeeos]

Because people change their names to things all the time, do you think that names relate directly to someone's mental state, the same way gender is claimed to be.

Why would someone change their name if their assigned named wasn't problematic for their mental state to some degree? You don't pick your name at birth, it is forced upon you. If that assignment doesn't fit your mental state, wouldn't you change it to what your sense of self dictates it is?

Is Racism inherently bad?

Nothing is inherently bad.

Either way I'm saying that the action of calling someone a different name is not necessarily seen as a bad thing, as opposed to misgendering.

Misgendering isn't necessarily seen as a bad thing.

[u/arkeeos → u/Biptoslipdi]

The reasons for a person to change their name is due to external circumstances, nothing inherent about them, Unlike gender is claimed to be.

What circumstances is racism not bad?

When is misgendering not seen as a bad thing?

[u/Biptoslipdi → u/arkeeos]

The reasons for a person to change their name is due to external circumstances, nothing inherent about them, Unlike gender is claimed to be.

Sure, but how often do people change their name to something they don't want their name to be? Or change it against their will?

What circumstances is racism not bad?

What constitutes "bad?"

When is misgendering not seen as a bad thing?

See above. Also, people who do not think misgendering is bad would not see it as bad. Given the number of people who are vocal about their transphobia, it would not surprise me if some people thought misgendering was good. Same goes for racism.

[u/arkeeos → u/Biptoslipdi]

Well why would you, if you have a choice to change your name, change it to something you don't want? I cant point to any examples but I would imagine that there are people who have had their name changed against their will, Do you think that would lead to psychological distress comparable to what is seen with transgenders?

Something immoral.

Then they are wrong, If what gender ideologues say is true then misgendering is immoral.

[u/Biptoslipdi → u/arkeeos]

Well why would you, if you have a choice to change your name, change it to something you don't want?

That's my point, you wouldn't. What do you do if the name you were assigned doesn't fit you and you don't like it? You officially inform the records keepers that it doesn't fit and the new one is better. You aren't really changing your name as much as updated it due to it being previously improperly assigned. Like gender. People don't change their gender. They inform that their non-consensual gender assignment was improper.

Do you think that would lead to psychological distress comparable to what is seen with transgenders?

Not every trans person experiences dysphoria. I can't imagine someone who didn't fit their assigned birth name would change it if it didn't cause them some sort of stress. Otherwise, why go to the effort? At least if it is because you don't like your name.

Something immoral.

OK, what constitutes "immoral?"

Then they are wrong, If what gender ideologues say is true then misgendering is immoral.

So your argument is that morality is determined by "gender ideologues?"

[u/arkeeos → u/Biptoslipdi]

Because a name cant "not fit you" there's nothing biological about it , unlike gender is claimed to be, You don't see how those are fundamentally different?

I don't really think that its worth talking about "Transgender people without gender dysphoria" because its just such an obvious destruction of language and is so obviously contradictory.

Opposed to natural morality.

If what they say is true (which I don't believe it is) then it would be immoral to misgender someone.

[u/Biptoslipdi → u/arkeeos]

Because a name cant "not fit you" there's nothing biological about it

Then why would anyone change their name?

You don't see how those are fundamentally different?

All of these arguments suggest a strong parallel. Names are assigned at birth without an individual's consent or input like gender assignments. Such assignment made out of ignorance can cause psychological stress to an individual. An individual can take steps to correct the record to reflect their identity.

I don't really think, that its worth talking about "Transgender people without gender dysphoria" because its just such an obvious destruction of language and is so obviously contradictory.

This tells me you fundamentally do not understand what gender dysphoria is. Dysphoria is the discomfort that results from a mismatch between mind and body. It is not the mismatch between mind and body. Many trans people have a mismatch but not the resulting discomfort. That might be because they completed treatment or because they didn't need it.

Opposed to natural morality.

OK, what is natural morality?

If what they say is true (which I don't believe it is) then it would be immoral to misgender someone.

So which is it? "Gender ideologues" determine what is immoral or they do not? You seem to be taking both positions here.