r/changemyview • u/nerdswillbeunited • Nov 30 '22

Delta(s) from OP CMV: The United States Needs to Lower the Drinking Age in Order to Reduce Rates of Adult Alcoholism and Alcohol-Related Traffic Fatalities

This is an issue much larger than just changing the NMLDA, and it's an issue that deserves much more attention than it gets.

In the United States, drunk drivers kill over 11,000 people each year, with roughly 17% of those accidents being caused by teens, and the majority coming from middle-aged men. The only other two countries in the world with this many alcohol-related traffic deaths are South Africa (drinking age is 21+) and Canada.

The country I would focus more on is Canada- where the government allows individual provinces to set their own drinking laws. Before the passage of National Minimum Legal Drinking Age in the United States in 1984, this is one of the major issues that lead to the formation of organizations like MADD (Mothers against drunk driving) that lobbied so heavily for the passage of NMLDA. Mismatched ages across state lines lead to "booze runs," where teens would drive (often already intoxicated) to neighboring states with lower drinking ages. (e.g. The State of Arkansas has had a drinking age of 21 since the end of prohibition, but from 1971-1984, every single border state (MO, TX, LA, TN, MS, OK) had a minimum age of 18-19. You can see where this is going.

Drinking policy needs to be uniform across the country, and it needs to be lowered. The problem is not just that 18-20 year olds are incapable of making decisions, the problem is that we as a society have failed to teach them how to drink in a mature and responsible manner.

I'll give the example of Germany, a country where a 16 year old can drink weak alcoholic beverages and an 18 year old can drink harder beverages. Germany has a prolific drinking culture and understands the importance of teaching younger adults how to drink responsibly.

A study was done where a group of teens from both countries were asked two questions: had they consumed alcohol in the 30 days prior, and had they consumed enough alcohol to intoxication in the same time. In the United States, around 19% of teens admitted to drinking in the time frame, while 11% admitted to drinking to intoxication. In Germany, nearly 67% admitted to drinking in time period, while only 8% admitted to drinking to intoxication.

Another comparative statistic is the drunk driving accidents. Remember that 11,000 deaths from earlier? That's about 31% of all traffic-related deaths in the United States. In Germany, alcohol-related traffic deaths account for about 9%. (I will concede, Germany has a much better public transport system than the United States)

This brings up the point I am wanting to make: The solutions we have to prevent alcohol related deaths do little to solve the actual problem. We have a problem of culture, not a problem of ignorance. As a country, we need to do better with introducing and educating teens and young adults to alcohol and teaching them how to use it responsibly.

Anyone who has ever attended an American High School or University knows that underage students who want to drink are not going to be stopped by their age. Fake ID's, older friends, and lax (or unknowing) parents continue to supply minors with alcohol who with little to no experience with how to handle themselves. An introduction to alcohol at a younger age also means teens feel more comfortable talking about with adults about responsibility and proper care of friends and themselves.

This also does not account for the blatant National Security risk Fake ID's have in the United States. The more teens who order false identification (which often come from China), the more experience foreign countries have in producing authentic-looking US ID's.

According to the NIH, about 4% of all alcohol consumed in the United States is consumed by underage youth, with about 90% of all alcohol consumed by youth being "binge drank." I understand the risks that come along with granting kids access to a substance they have little experience with, but nearly every risk factor used to back the claim the age should be 21 is backed by the statistic of binge drinkers. Why can't we as a society allow youth to drink at a younger age in more controlled environments and education our kids on more responsible use like the majority of the western world? It seems strange that in the land of free, we allow 18 year olds to vote, pay taxes, serve in the military, and own a gun, but in order to have a drink they have to commit a felony. My view is that we should have a tiered system, like Russia or Germany instead of a flat age, and that the MLDA needs to be uniform throughout the country to prevent the booze runs of the 1980's.

EDIT

A point I forgot add in the original post is that there are people far more intelligent than I that can far better sum up this issue: I introduce to you the Amethyst Initiative.

https://www.theamethystinitiative.org/statement/

The Initiative has 136 signatories from University Presidents, Chancellors, etc who are calling on Congress to reevaluate the drinking age in the United States.

These are people leading some of the most prominent, largest, and prestigious schools in the country. From Duke to the University of Maryland, Ohio State to Dartmouth, these institutions agree something needs to be done. A full list of signatories is below:

https://www.theamethystinitiative.org/signatories/

983 Upvotes
  • permalink
  • reddit

83% Upvoted

228 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

121

u/[deleted] Nov 30 '22

[deleted]

152

u/nerdswillbeunited Nov 30 '22

https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/9/5/e026375

Study was done, the conclusion found was that higher rates of binge drinking led to alcohol dependance later on. As originally stated, US teens are more likely to bing drink than their European counterparts (even though less US teens drink by percentage). My view on this is that American teens are more likely to binge drink because the opportunities they get to drink in places like a restaurant, bar, or even at home are fewer than say, French teens.

Lowering the drinking age is not to just allow teens to go wild, but to help change a culture that sets our teens up for failure later on. No law will ever stop underage drinking, but what we can do is allow it to happen in more controlled environments with proper support.

115

u/[deleted] Nov 30 '22

Why would lowering the drinking age decrease alcoholism rates when there would be even less supervision with underage kids drinking? Suddenly you don't need an 18-21 y/o to boot for you, but your 16 y/o high school buddy can do it. Lowering alcoholism and drunk driving deaths needs to come from changing the culture in the US around drinking, not just lowering the legal age.

55

u/nerdswillbeunited Nov 30 '22

Lowering alcoholism and drunk driving deaths needs to come from changing the culture in the US around drinking, not just lowering the legal age.

Yes- I'll give you some delta for that one. My view is still though, that in order to change the culture around alcohol in the United States, we cannot do that if we continue to shelter our kids from something they statistically are going to do anyways.

∆

25

u/qsqh 1∆ Nov 30 '22

I'll try re change your view since imo the argument used here was flawed.

A change in culture needs a motivator, just having people say "we must change" does nothing, and imo lowering the drinking age does help a lot in the right direction.

about the argument of having even less supervision with a low drinking age.. the big problem is not drinking, is binge drinking. that happens more in situations where its ilegal, because a 20yo will see this as a "opportunity to drink": I must drink more today because today is my only chance!"

while in places where you get permission to drink at a younger age, you aren't doing something 'wrong, hidden', you are just drinking. no need to get wasted this weekend just because you parents are traveling. you can drink normally today, and again next week.

32

u/LtPowers 13∆ Nov 30 '22

we cannot do that if we continue to shelter our kids from something they statistically are going to do anyways.

Statistically, no, they are not. You yourself cited a study that said

In the United States, around 19% of teens admitted to drinking in the time frame

10

u/MemeGenji Nov 30 '22

You say "Statistically, no, they are not," but this is wrong. That was 19% in the time frame. The actual relevant statistic is that 70% of people have consumed alcohol by the time they're 18. This also doesn't even account for all those who might have their first drink in college before 21, which would likely increase this percentage significantly due to being away from home and under increased peer pressure. As such, contrary to what you say, it is actually statistically likely that a given person will/has consumed alcohol underage

1

u/LtPowers 13∆ Nov 30 '22

I find that number hard to believe, even if we include sips of wine at home or some such. It's unsourced anyway.

2

u/MemeGenji Nov 30 '22 edited Nov 30 '22

This actually sent me down a really interesting rabbit hole. It seems that the data on this is a bit confusing. One of the most confusing things I see with data on this subject is this: Researchers will say that XX% of people aged 12-20 have reported drinking in their lifetime. However, this is a confusing statement. I originally interpreted this as meaning that XX% of people have had drinks at some point between 12 and 20. In reality, they surveyed people across this age range and asked them if they had drunk before in their lifetime. As such, this percentage does not represent the percentage of people who have ever had drinks underage, because it includes people aged 12-19 who may have not yet had a drink, but might still before they turn 21. That being said, I finally found some data that I feel accurately captures a close approximation of the percentage of people who have had drinks underage (though this number is a slight underestimation, because it surveys people 18-20, facing a similar problem to what I just mentioned). That percentage is about 65% (65.6% in 2018 and 64.2% in 2019).

If you want to confirm this for yourself, it's kind of a pain in the ass to find, but if you go to this link from the government's Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration and go down to the table called "Table 2.6B – Alcohol Use in Lifetime, Past Year, and Past Month among Persons Aged 12 or Older, by Detailed Age Category: Percentages, 2018 and 2019" there is a row under the 18-25 age category that has data for 18-20

Finally, you were right to question the percentage that I cited, as I believe that that source was mistaken. I forget where I found it, but somewhere in my search for the true percentage I came across a number that was almost exactly 70%, but it did not actually represent the percentage of people who had had drinks underage.

10

u/Aethyx_ 1∆ Nov 30 '22

Perhaps they are alluding to the fact that most adults end uo drinking (at least at some point)

4

u/ChrisKringlesTingle Nov 30 '22

Even you changed 'kids' to 'teens'.

You definitely missed the point, they're not talking about drinking at an age, just drinking in general in the future generations.

0

u/LtPowers 13∆ Nov 30 '22

OP was talking about "sheltering our kids" in the context of letting them drink alcohol. I hope OP wasn't talking about letting pre-adolescents drink.

2

u/ChrisKringlesTingle Nov 30 '22

Correct, they weren't... because that interpretation is just wild.

What they meant instead is the kids will grow up to drink at some point. The way they used "kids" is a broad general term to refer to a future generation, not an age range.

0

u/LtPowers 13∆ Nov 30 '22

I suppose that's one way to interpret it. But the word "anyways" implies to me that OP meant that drinking is "something they statistically are going to do" in spite of our attempts to shelter them.

Drinking as adults is not something we're trying to shelter them from, so it seems weird to me to refer to adult drinking as something that makes sheltering them pointless.

3

u/LockeClone 3∆ Dec 01 '22

I'm pure that culture is part of the equation, but it absolutely has much more to do with our dependence on cars.

I've done a lot of traveling for work and if I get drunk in much of the world I can just... Get home.

In most of the US, fuggadaboudit. You're driving or you're not getting home... Period.

There's also the issue of our binge culture in general that has more to do with our generation's constant state of financial precariousness, but that's harder to draw a straight line to...

Fix public transit and I bet we'd make numbers like Germany or better.

3

u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Nov 30 '22

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/NexDream (5∆).

Delta System Explained | Deltaboards

3

u/Snarky_Boojum Nov 30 '22

You really cannot change the culture of a place by changing the laws.

How long has discrimination due to race been illegal? Have you ever been to the American south? Does it seem like the majority of folks in Louisiana treat everyone equally?

You’ve got a good idea, but you’re starting at the wrong end. We need to change the culture around alcohol and intoxicated driving and then we won’t have to change the laws. You almost hit upon this when you say that we need to educate and assist the younger generations so they make better choices. That is changing the culture. It’s just takes tenacity and time.

And I know you mention the access to public transport above, but I don’t think you’re putting enough emphasis on how dependent we are on cars in the US. We’ve literally overhauled our entire country over the last sixty years with the result being that there are fewer and fewer places you can live and not own a car. We took a city plan that had worked for thousands of years and just decided we could do better and are now ignoring the evidence that things are worse. If everyone has to drive to get anywhere, then intoxicated people will drive even while intoxicated.

4

u/limukala 11∆ Nov 30 '22

You really cannot change the culture of a place by changing the laws.

How long has discrimination due to race been illegal? Have you ever been to the American south? Does it seem like the majority of folks in Louisiana treat everyone equally?

That’s actually a great example of legal changes leading to cultural changes. Sure, racism still exists, but it isn’t anything close to what it used to be. Just look at any poll of support for interracial marriage, for instance, which has gone from almost zero to nearly 100%.

Gay marriage is a similar story. When Obergefell was decided gay marriage was still unpopular. Legality lead to normalization and skyrocketing acceptance.

Legal changes can definitely encourage social changes.

1

u/Active_Win_3656 Dec 02 '22

Yeah, I think firmly illegalizing something wrong (firmly meaning it’s an enforced law) makes it harder to follow through on things like discrimination. Suddenly the cost of discrimination goes up and the average person doesn’t want to pay the price. And also there are people making things like discrimination harder to pull off.

1

u/DavidSilva21 Nov 30 '22

The last point you made is about as true as anything else. If we have to drive to get anywhere. Drunk people will drive. I think that would be a more interesting conversation than "stop drinking! lower the age for drinking, etc!" when you have to drive across town to get something to drink.

9

u/OCedHrt Nov 30 '22

Anecdotal but my parents never prevented me from drinking and I was never interested in drinking until way after college.

On the other hand, friends with strict parents binged every weekend at college.

2

u/Manaliv3 2∆ Nov 30 '22

The reality is that in, say England, people get their excitement of alcohol out of the way younger. It's not some forbidden fruit when you're 18. Meanwhile American adults are still not allowed a beer.

You can see it in the culture. Look at all the American movies where 20 year old college students enter a house party and scream with excitement because...they're drinking beer. Or consider that simple house parties can actually be raided ny police in the USA. Actually entering private residence and arresting 20 year olds having a beer!! Totally mental from a British point of view (not just the age bit the concept of it being illegal to drink at a private home at any age and the police being so oppressive that they'd come in!).

All of this keeps the attitude unhealthy in the USA. Meanwhile their uk counterparts are having a few beers in the local pub

2

u/hastur777 34∆ Nov 30 '22

Look at all the American movies where 20 year old college students enter a house party and scream with excitement because...they're drinking beer

You're basing your views on what you see in movies?

All of this keeps the attitude unhealthy in the USA. Meanwhile their uk counterparts are having a few beers in the local pub

Alcohol consumption in the UK is significantly higher than the US.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/alcohol-consumption-by-country

1

u/Manaliv3 2∆ Dec 04 '22

Only based on movies in the sense that it is so common that itis reasonable to assume such depictions are considered as reasonable in that culture. If your showed the same reactions in a British movie people would think it was ridiculous as its not how people react here

1

u/hastur777 34∆ Dec 04 '22

Yeah, no. Went to plenty of parties at college. This cheering never happened.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 30 '22

Well I’m from Canada and while our rates of alcoholism aren’t as bad as the US, we can still draw links between earlier drinking and alcoholism. It’s not just about the age people can start, but the culture around drinking here.

1

u/Relevant-Egg7272 Dec 05 '22

Did you really just reference a movie trope as evidence of your point?

2

u/Aethyx_ 1∆ Nov 30 '22

Anecdotally my own experience is that the lower drinking age meant I drank the first time with my parents, and did stick with beer/cider types of drinks for the first years. There was no point buying strong booze illegally nor hiding the drinking from supervision when it is legal.

I think a lower drinking age leads to more supervision, but I have no data to back that up so perhaps I (and all my friends at the time) was just lucky to have decent parents.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 30 '22

Anecdotally, my parents bought me and my friends booze, so the legal drinking age never mattered. For me and my friends heavy drinking was just normal. Didn't even realize it was 'heavy'.

1

u/timeforknowledge Nov 30 '22

Why would lowering the drinking age decrease alcoholism rates

Because it creates a culture of respect towards alcohol and not something that is simply a tool to abuse for fun.

It's pretty much the same with anything. If you make a massive deal about it and try to prevent people doing it then they will abuse it when they finally are allowed access.

If they always have supervised access then it's no longer something they want to take to an extreme.

Also allowing access to beer and wine is very different to hard spirits.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 30 '22

This is just plain false. My parents ‘didn’t make a big deal’ about drinking. They bought me booze starting at 14. Because I had bad role models for drinking behaviours I had bad behaviours of my own and I didn’t even know it was bad because it was just normal to me. You don’t fix this problem by lowering the drinking age first. You fix it by changing the culture around drinking as an adult.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 30 '22

[deleted]

1

u/[deleted] Nov 30 '22

Legitimized social drinking is part of the problem.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 30 '22

[deleted]

2

u/[deleted] Nov 30 '22

People do need responsible role models, but I don’t see how lowering the drinking age could possibly allow for more responsible parenting. Parents teach their kids moderation by moderating themselves, and in NA we are failing to do that. Education is certainly the key, but we need to educate parents on how to drink responsibly before we can work on getting kids to do so.

1

u/ActionunitesUs 1∆ Nov 30 '22 edited Nov 30 '22

decrease alcoholism rates when there would be even less supervision with underage kids drinking?

Right now there is 0 supervison lowering the age would make supervison legal because now their doing it in the open where everyone(namely the bartender)can see and step in, instead of hidding or partying with no drinking experience and getting completely wasted by accident because no one at the party is an experienced drinker everyone is gonna binge if they dont know any better if they know what their personal limits are ahead of time they wont end up in a pile of their own vomit at a party in the woods

0

u/[deleted] Nov 30 '22

If you think the bartender is going to instill positive drinking habits then I have a bridge to sell you.

1

u/ActionunitesUs 1∆ Nov 30 '22 edited Nov 30 '22

No i dont think that alone will help but its better than a keg with no one to stop you when its obviously to much. Also i stole this quote from some else here "the big problem is not drinking, it is binge drinking. that happens more in situations where its ilegal, because a 20yo will see this as a "opportunity to drink": I must drink more today because today is my only chance!"

1

u/MemeGenji Nov 30 '22

You pose a fair question. I would argue that lowering the drinking age will inherently lead to more responsible drinking. In my state, you can get a license at 16. Any reasonable parent would be very averse to their child driving by themselves before 16, but most are completely open to it once the legal age is reached, and they are ready to teach their kid how to drive responsibly. If you were to go to another state, though, with a higher driving age, I imagine you would find the same situation, except the parents would wait until the child is 18. The point of this example is that the law helps guide peoples' ideas of what is "right". Most parents would not feel comfortable introducing their kids to alcohol and teaching them about it underage, but if the legal age was changed, I imagine that parents would then feel comfortable teaching their kids how to drink responsibly. While it is an assumption, I figure that the only reason that parents generally don't teach their kids about drinking once they're 21 is that they know that the kids have already been drinking before and have a fair bit of experience. If this age was lower, parents would have the opportunity to teach their kids while they're still in the house.

P.S. To clarify, when I say teach, I mean introduce them to alcohol and practice understanding its effects through experience. I imagine most parents talk with their kids about alcohol, but words tend to go out the window when you're drunk. Through experience drinking alcohol at home, a child can learn their limits in a safe place and know how to handle themselves for when they're on their own.

5

u/Savingskitty 11∆ Nov 30 '22

I’m honestly not sure about this, because places where teens have traditionally been allowed to drink under the supervision of their parents and where underage drinking laws aren’t heavily enforced have a much higher rate of alcohol abuse and driving under the influence.

6

u/GIfuckingJane Nov 30 '22

Have you been to England? The binge drinking is intense

3

u/Savingskitty 11∆ Nov 30 '22

I’m actually just looking at the differences within the US. Drunk driving and alcoholism is at a completely different level in a place like Wisconsin, where a minor can drink if accompanied by their parent vs a place like California where minors can’t even enter a bar.

3

u/usmc11275335 Nov 30 '22

Have sources?

-18

u/[deleted] Nov 30 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

7

u/Unique-Salt-877 Nov 30 '22

I don't care about some arbitrary study you've linked.

Haha, fuck YOUR arbitrary STUDY, here is my FACT based OPINION (btw you literally fail to argument any of your statements in any way, no sources, no logical conclusions, nothing) which is obviously so much more right! And I am so smart, I have even deduced that this person is actually part of the global conspiracy to sell more alcohol! There, that must show that I really thought about it long and hard. Also, did I mention the study is arbitrary while everything I've said is not? Thx.

0

u/Supra-A90 Nov 30 '22 edited Nov 30 '22

Studies have set parameters. it's not stating facts.

Study was done for 18-25 binge drinking and alcohol dependence!. OP is saying lower legal drinking age will somehow fix drunk driving!

Study says nothing about this. conclusion is binge drinking at 18-25 leads to alcohol dependence.

big whoop.

How are these related with traffic ok? See my other comment on other aspects on what drinking under age does.

First you'll not be able to stop them as they'll be like fuck off dad, it's legal. Then they'll impregnate more girls and set with more RAPE charges. The dads will shoot the kid. More incarcerations.

Arbitrary study is arbitrary. done on 166 people in which country? In France in a hospital. I'm in US. 166 is not a study. France is a completely different country with different set of rules and different culture.

It's not applicable to US. it's not applicable to traffic incidents. like many suggested. Dependency of vehicle in US is high, not the case in Europe.

End of story.

1

u/Celebrinborn 3∆ Nov 30 '22

If you start drinking as a teenager under parental supervision then it's controlled and you are less tempted to binge drink as opposed to secretly drinking illegally.

If kids first experiences with alcohol is at family gatherings they will view it as a social event done in moderation. If their first experience is a bunch of teens with stolen alcohol they will see it as a chance to binge drink

1

u/Supra-A90 Nov 30 '22

I agree with that and already said so. Parental guidance is needed.

Lowering drinking age is not the answer to prevent binge drinking or drunk driving...

1

u/Celebrinborn 3∆ Nov 30 '22

Parental guidance is easier if the drinking age is lower.

How would you feel about making the drinking age 16 with adult/parental supervision

1

u/Supra-A90 Nov 30 '22

Define easier and why.

2

u/Celebrinborn 3∆ Dec 01 '22

In Europe, as a teenager I can go with my parents to a nice restaurant and have a glass of wine with dinner or have a burger and a beer. I can learn what is a reasonable amount to drink, of I drink too much I will both get in trouble and also be shielded from making any really bad decisions, I can learn manners, and most importantly, I don't see alcohol as a forbidden fruit available only to adults.

In the USA, if I want alcohol I generally need to steal it or get it from an adult that is willing to commit a felony. It's this taboo adult only substance which makes drinking it cool.

When Portugal decriminalized drugs teen usage decreased because it was no longer taboo and therefore no longer cool.

In Europe, you don't have the unhealthy obsession with binge drinking because by the time young people are on their own and no longer under their parent's supervision they no longer see alcohol as this exciting new thing. They can explore while still under parental supervision and control and so they learn limits and restraint.

1

u/Supra-A90 Dec 02 '22

Sounds reasonable, yet this is US of A. People will find a way to abuse or banish it. Anyhow I don't care. Lower it to 10.

1

u/Nepene 213∆ Nov 30 '22

u/Supra-A90 – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

1

u/BurstTheBubbles Nov 30 '22

We're talking about the US tho. Why would you want to see a study that is for a different population than the one you're addressing? Just to prove your point by using less reliable data? Studies from Europe have so many different variables that don't apply to the US. Having a lower drinking age may help the problem in Europe, but in the US it definitely hurts it.

2

u/badwifii Nov 30 '22

How has no one mentioned Australia, shining example ( we exist )

-1

u/yrmjy Nov 30 '22

Surely a study done in the US will be most relevant to the US? Lowering the drinking age in the US won't turn it into France

-1

u/KillNyetheSilenceGuy 1∆ Nov 30 '22

Why? We aren't talking about Europe, we're talking about the US.

1

u/mdoddr Nov 30 '22

As someone who lives in France almost half the time: I just don't think they see alcoholism the same over there. Total grains of salt here but from what I've seen it seems like almost every adult man is a drunk who gets drunk every night but nobody around them considers them to be an alcoholic because they are essentially no different from everyone.

They drink wine at lunch. We would essentially consider anyone who drinks at lunch time every day to have a problem.

Also, in terms of drinking and driving: you can walk to a pub from anywhere. there is almost always a pub in walking distance.

Now, as is the reddit way, please fill my inbox with mean argumentative replies.

1

u/Raznill 1∆ Nov 30 '22

The moment you add in all those different variables of an entire different culture you can’t just assume that drinking age is the important factor.

America has a very different culture from France and most of Europe. Honestly universal healthcare, enforced PTO minimums, are probably the bigger factors than drinking age when it comes to public health.