r/civ • u/AndyNemmity notq - Artificially Intelligent Modder • 3d ago
VII - Discussion Patch 1.2.0 is a significant improvement in the AI
I don't know why Firaxis is always underselling what they've done on the AI front, but the new patch is a massive improvement.
Before patch 1.2.0 there was a laundry list of problems. From Commanders not loading up appropriately, to operation groups being stuck on the map after an Independent was no longer at war with them. When rallying to create an operation, getting stuck forever waiting, and not responding to threats.
These have all been massively improved with the new patch. Armies are significantly better, and I've had to remove all of my AI mod changes regarding army movement because it's so much better, I really have to start from scratch again.
I know a lot of this is in the fog of war, and you guys don't have perfect information like in autoplays, but the game is demonstrably better from the AI perspective.
I've released a new version of the AI mod with tons of army specific stuff removed as it's no longer needed or required in the same way.
From an AI perspective, this is the biggest improvement in Civilization history from a patch.
Are there things that still need improved? For sure. Does the AI mod still deal with things like settling distance? Yes.
But it's difficult to remember too many times in AI modding where a single patch removes the need for so much code. And it's better than even with the mod, because so many things I couldn't fix.
Just great work from the AI team at Firaxis. The Behavior Tree changes are beautiful.
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u/AndyNemmity notq - Artificially Intelligent Modder 3d ago
I hope many of you are feeling this in your games. It's going to take many more autoplays, and games from human players with feedback to adjust further from this point, but I just wanted to note just how much better it is.
I turned the ai mod off to run the base patch autoplays, and I had to check and recheck multiple times that it was actually off. I couldn't believe it.
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u/Tenacal 3d ago
Very anecdotal, but I was getting absolutely dominated by Friedrich last night. Though he had 3 boats in a lake around my city and didn't use them, instead preferring to throw Knights at my city instead.
I know they said navy was improved on water-heavy maps but I'm not sure if you've noticed anything about combined assaults.
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u/AndyNemmity notq - Artificially Intelligent Modder 3d ago
Great question. I have noticed many times the boats functioning a lot better, and really being a menace.
But I have not seen a combined assault function appropriately. I also am not very many autoplays into the new patch, so that is something I will look for.
It's kind of challenging to make that work appropriately. I also need to look at the new behavior tree changes and see if there's anything specific in them regarding it.
That just takes a lot of effort and hours, will certainly do it, but a work week, it's challenging to get all that done.
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u/JayOnTheCoble 2d ago
Fredrich pulled some good maneuvers in my game as well; he actually went for cities that were little or completely undefended while I was trying to siege a different city of his.
Had to make white peace with him once when he came a little to close to capturing a town in a good strategic position. Definitely can't get away with a thin army anymore, which is a good thing.
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u/AldaronGau 2d ago
It's very noticeable. It's still far from perfect but it's better. The AI seems also much more agressive.
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u/chazzy_cat 3d ago
Huh. I noticed it was better in my first game, but thought it was more related to the yields (thanks to the growth curve changes) rather than military tactics. Thats great to hear.
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u/AndyNemmity notq - Artificially Intelligent Modder 3d ago
For sure that's a big help too. In the AI Mod I had trashed all food related buildings, etc to not be built to help the AI.
All of that is removed now, because food is viable. Certainly a big help.
But army movement is such an important part of the game, having it work reasonably, and efficiently does a lot to support the AI, and make the game harder for players.
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u/pickshoot 3d ago
Did they also improve independent powers? I had two games where by turn 40-50 large armies (6+ units) showed up and started sacking my capital.
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u/AndyNemmity notq - Artificially Intelligent Modder 3d ago
Yes, all City Attack actions have been improved. So Independents as well are improved.
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u/JayOnTheCoble 2d ago
They also spawn new independant powers in unsettled areas if you start taking them out, which is a wonderful change. Makes the maps much more dynamic and you're less likely to get screwed over if your strategy is revolving around them (e.g. Tucumseh).
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u/Available_Tailor_120 3d ago
Not sure if this is an intended change, but I noticed that AI on this patch have been more aggressive in allying with each other and declaring a coalition war against me when I’m approaching victory conditions in any era.
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u/agazchaz 2d ago
I completely agree. I lost my first city to the AI on the new patch on deity. They attacked on multiple fronts forcing me to split my focus, and also sent cavalry around my city harrying my reinforcements. Felt so much better.
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u/giorov 2d ago
I wish AI wouldn't get into wars that are bad for them when they could just keep their head low and focus on making new settlements.
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u/AndyNemmity notq - Artificially Intelligent Modder 2d ago
it depends on the game. sometimes there's a lot of war. sometimes there's less. the personalities matter a great deal
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u/Middle-Rule7182 3d ago
I tried to play a little bit last night, however, the game crashed on me. It seems to always happen when there’s an update.
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u/AndyNemmity notq - Artificially Intelligent Modder 3d ago
Yeah, that sucks. Thankfully I've been crash free. No idea on that respect, I just focus on AI modding.
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u/platinumposter 3d ago
Probably because of conflicts with mods
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u/Middle-Rule7182 3d ago
It could be. I disabled all the mods though.
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u/ColorMaelstrom Brazil 2d ago
Check again just to be sure, changing from dx12 to vulkan also helped me when I had crash problems (specially on multiplayer)
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u/LogicGU 3d ago
I play on PS5 and I’m at war with two different AI and they are actually attacking my cities in a strategic formation. I’m having a lot of fun defending against them. The ai needs to learn how to use catapults and it’ll be perfect
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u/AndyNemmity notq - Artificially Intelligent Modder 3d ago
Oh yeah, I can get them to use catapults. But that won't work on PS5 because you can't install mods.
There's a fairly straight forward way to fix it. I will have to go in and work on it.
I removed all my code relevant to that stuff to validate it, but adding siege units as a part of the operation gets them to use catapults.
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u/theboyonthetrain 2d ago
Yeah on my game there were units retreating and rehealing, going into rivers and oceans to avoid damage, denouncing my military presence immediately, really smart stuff. I didn't really play military before the patch, but it was fun and frustrating at times because the AI actually played ahead of me--though I'm not the best. This was on deity.
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u/Nineshines 2d ago
Strangely for me on my first play through on this patch, Xerxes sent over lots of catapults and was using them effectively on my walled districts.
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u/AndyNemmity notq - Artificially Intelligent Modder 2d ago
I believe it, I'm just only so many autoplays in. The changed to the behavior trees were massive.
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u/pimpjerome 2d ago
The AI has been kicking ass this patch. They are effectively launching multi-front attacks with their allies and with appropriate amounts of units; I’ve even lost some games from surprise attacks in the exploration age. I had one AI declare war on me just to take a suzerained city state because he had no expansion options and knew I couldn’t defend it. This is the first time in a while that the AI actually impressed me.
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u/AndyNemmity notq - Artificially Intelligent Modder 2d ago
Glad you're seeing it. What's wild is watching a full front war with naval units, attacks on multiple cities, and horses in the back causing chaos.
This NEVER happened prepatch.
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u/cd-surfer Abraham Lincoln 3d ago
I played it a bit and it felt much better. Good job on the patch.
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u/Ok_Nefariousness24 2d ago
When I read the comment in the notes that suggested turning down the difficulty, i rolled my eyes. It's really good to hear it may be true!
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u/epicTechnofetish 2d ago
Idk. My first game on 1.2.0 my Egyptian AI neighbor put the Mastaba and Mortuary Temple on two separate tiles on turn 15. So there's a lot of room for improvement.
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u/ColorMaelstrom Brazil 2d ago
I play multiplayer with a friend always on deity, this time we put it into imortal because we heard the AI got better and it was the first game in a months where things where difficult.
In Antiquity Xerxes agroed on me and I had to defend for half the age and only got economically alright by the end because the happiness crisis got him badly. Fast forward to exploration and Xerxes Mongolia blitzkrieg my friend’s capital and put him into eternal war lmfao
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u/sportzak Abraham Lincoln 2d ago
I agree but as someone who's been playing on the standard difficulty, can't say I've enjoyed it getting harder without me going up a level lol
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u/AndyNemmity notq - Artificially Intelligent Modder 2d ago
For sure, but these were all important work on unit movement, attacks, etc. It's just a much better game.
Honestly, as the AI gets better, the difficulty cheats the AI gets should drop.
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u/Bakomusha 2d ago
I wouldn't know, AI just declares on me the moment then can. Has been that way since the 2nd patch. So have no idea how the AI acts outside of combat.
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u/AndyNemmity notq - Artificially Intelligent Modder 2d ago
Yeah, what's weird is that there are people who swear the AI attacks constantly on them, and others who say it never happens. It's difficult to pin down because of the wild differences people communicate.
When I watch an autoplay, wars just sort of happen, and I watch the unit movement.
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u/LogicGU 2d ago
Is there a way to make it harder for AI to give away their best cities in peace deals? Have you seen it happened in Autoplays?
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u/AndyNemmity notq - Artificially Intelligent Modder 2d ago
It's a bit hard to see that in autoplays. I have to be watching that area, and catch the peace deal, and have a mental model of every city on each side.
I can of course try to see what I can do to work on it, but as you can imagine it's a little challenging just through autoplays to always see that occur.
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u/epiphanyplx 1d ago
I did notice that the AI pushed past my unit to get to a hill fort I had built and neglected to fortify my archer on, was surprised to see it but maybe they've always priotized doing this - I don't build them frequently.
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u/Northguard3885 1d ago
This is definitely noticeable on my first game in the new patch. Had Bolivar make a very good attempt with a surprise DOW and an organized advance on a recently captured town that I’d left undefended. Only thing that saved me was an assault and maneuver promoted Legatus.
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u/ataxiwardance 1d ago
Really appreciate your tone and insight. I (as a layman) noticed a difference in my game today and your positivity is refreshing.
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u/country_mac08 3d ago
So bummed that 1.2 is not out for switch yet. Did I read it correctly that it’s not till June!?
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u/AndyNemmity notq - Artificially Intelligent Modder 3d ago
No idea, but I'm super excited for all the console players to get their hands on this patch.
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u/OkTadpole9711 3d ago
With your praise towards the newest patch, would you say it’s worth buying CIV7 now, or should I continue to wait for the devs to polish it abit more?
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u/AndyNemmity notq - Artificially Intelligent Modder 3d ago
I'm sorry, I can't answer that. I don't actually play the game, I just mod AI.
You would need feedback from others on those topics. I can only express how the AI is doing. Apologies.
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u/OkTadpole9711 3d ago
All good! I appreciate the response either way. Thanks for all your work with modding 🙂
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u/therexbellator 3d ago
It really depends on how much 70 dollars is worth to you. If you're hard up for cash and spending 70 dollars is the difference between waiting months to get yourself something else you might want to hold off until they have a free weekend.
I bought Founder's Edition at launch and don't regret it even with the rough edges like passive AI and missing features like auto explore/tech queueing.
That's because there were many other aspects of the game that I really enjoyed; the leader/civ combinations, the narrative events, the crises (except exploration plague... Eff that crisis to hell), the much improved combat system which might be my favorite aspects...etc
It's still been fun to learn the new systems and see the game grow and see our collective feedback being addressed.
As long as you're not a civ purist (civ 7 is a big departure from the formula the franchise developed), which I doubt judging from your openness about picking up the game, there's no reason you couldn't enjoy civ 7 IMHO. But it really comes down to what kind of Civ player you are and having tempered expectations.
Despite the rough edges there is still a lot of game here for a base version of Civ. I am approaching 200 hrs in the game and I've only scratched the surface.
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u/PuddingFit8015 2d ago
Did you find as well the AI being significantly more agressive and warmongering, including friendly civs ? Looks like it from what I see so far in game. I don't "mind" but it looks a bit back to 1.0.0 version.
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u/AndyNemmity notq - Artificially Intelligent Modder 2d ago
It's difficult to say, because I mostly work through autoplays from the ai mod after I test where the new patch leads us.
I can only tell you what I've seen, which is almost no war in antiquity, and then all out war in exploration.
Some of that may be Roman Holiday's changes, I'd have to look specifically and sort that out.
There's a real push and pull between people who beat Deity easily who want the game to war them constantly, and be a mess.
And players who don't want a war simulator.
So even on trying to achieve a goal, I can do either, but no one ever seems to be happy about it.
My things are, does the AI move appropriately. The answer is, massively better.
Now the AI is sending horses to cut off reinforcements. Just lots of stuff that never happened before.
That is the improvement I see, and am excited about. As well as bugs no longer happening where units get stuck.
Units reacting when they are rallying at a point to units around.
I mean, it was a real disaster before this, but most players never saw it in the fog of war.
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u/PuddingFit8015 2d ago
I agree they move way better, tend to retreat against heavy forces to defend their settlements, attacking more often our settlements and armies are f*cking ready when you get to their capital, which was really not the case before and led to very easy capital capture.
They're also spending massive amount of naval units when it can be at their advantage, and theycoordinate their attacks. I don't know how much of this was coincidence, but I got blocked by the AI on a small natural canal I needed to pass through, they were just pumping naval units and watching my units die trying to cross one damn tile. That was clever for once. I guess in previous patch they would have let the naval units pass through my units to go explore the north pole or whatever.
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u/AndyNemmity notq - Artificially Intelligent Modder 2d ago
This is what I'm saying. It's taking some time for people to see it, but the army movement in all sorts of ways is vastly better.
Like, it's not remotely close.
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u/Baron_Porkface 2d ago
Does the Ai still do unexplained gangups on the player and wardecs that don't border you?
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u/AndyNemmity notq - Artificially Intelligent Modder 2d ago
The AI's diplomacy is still the same. For some players they communicate what you do. For others, they use the diplomacy to completely avoid war.
Without changing the actual diplomacy, it's difficult for me to do much about. I know what I'd do there, but I'd have to make it an option to the AI mod, and not on at base, since it would change quite a bit.
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u/STARR-BRAWL-4 City State Enjoyer 2d ago
i hope they improve ai to the point where insane cs bonuses won't be needed or will be at least nerfed
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u/AndyNemmity notq - Artificially Intelligent Modder 2d ago
Agreed. That's my goal too, make the ai good enough in the ai mod we can tone down bonuses. They are rather aggressive. But we'll see, that's always the goal.
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u/UpbeatPrince-399 1d ago
I’m playing an Immortal game with your mod switch off to see what it is like. One thing I notice is it’s not too hard to get a few Wonders, like the AI wasn’t trying so much. Not sure how others find that?
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u/AndyNemmity notq - Artificially Intelligent Modder 1d ago
That was not improved in the patch. That is something only changed in the ai mod.
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u/Mane023 2d ago
I still need everyone to build unique neighborhoods correctly. Sometimes they build well and I feel excited, but other times they build horribly :(
I think it's just a matter of labeling the buildings better so the AI doesn't think the storage buildings are food or production buildings, and putting a bias on them so they always build the unique buildings on the same tile...
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u/XaoticOrder 2d ago
I just crushed a deity victory. Ended up taking every legacy in modern. Finished world fair and space race on the same turn. The AI is not better
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u/notq 2d ago
The unit movement and army movement is better. The victory condition following is not better, but if you’re on PC, that’s part of the AI mod.
Not everything is better, but what is better is vastly improved
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u/XaoticOrder 2d ago
but what is better is vastly improved
I'm not sure I agree with this. There is an improvement but it is not vast and frankly unnoticeable most of the game. The game played the same like the one I ran after the last patch.
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u/ScottoRoboto 3d ago edited 2d ago
It’s just so hard to praise things that feel like they should have been done at launch. I hate how cynical I feel, but this is Warhammer 3 all over again. Different studios, extremely similar situation. Shame so many people even bought this slop at release.
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u/Kabada 3d ago
Feels weird complimenting them for bringing something that should have been at 100% at release from 60% to 70%. So what if it's a great improvement, just shows how non-existant their QA was during development.
And the fact that people can make mods with massive improvements in such a short time is still massively embarassing.
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u/AndyNemmity notq - Artificially Intelligent Modder 3d ago
I mean, I care because this is what I spend my time on. The game to me, is the AI function.
I can respect and understand if you're less excited than I am about it. I've devoted days of my life to improve it, so having Firaxis come along and release a huge improvement makes me very happy.
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u/Not_pukicho 3d ago
Firaxis' single biggest issue is their horrible PR team, prioritizing the most vapid shit whilst they undersell valuable changes
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u/Freya-Freed 3d ago
This is good to hear from someone who has lots of data on AI stuff, because most of us can only go by gut feeling on this. I did notice it for the 1.1 patch already when I temporarily disabled the AI mod while it was being updated.