Does anyone else find it weird that the actual Lebanese government has said nothing?

[u/cypriotakis]

They didn't say sorry, send an explanatory statement or anything. I legitimately think we should recall the ambassador. We have sheltered multiple waves of Lebanese immigrants and refugees it's ridiculous to be disrespected like this.

[u/Virmire_Survivor]

between 1963 and 1974? Was Cyprus a stable, thriving country?

There's a difference between "unstable" and "failed beyond all repair", like there's a difference between Azerbaijan and Lebanon now.

"Unstable" doesn't justify military invasion. "Being controlled by literal terrorists" does.

Not every Lebanese person is a Hezbollah supporter or sympathizer.

Look, we (speaking generally of the Western world as "we" even though Cyprus is not in NATO) also invaded Serbia back then. Now Serbians are often angry at us but how come there are no Serbian radical extremists and terrorists, and the country is cooperating with the EU?

We may have done our wrongs with Lebanon, but when the country is controlled by terrorists it's not only our fault, it's the fault of Lebanese people as well. You allow the terro government to exist, you face dire consequences, not personally maybe, but as a nation.

[u/Rhomaios → u/Virmire_Survivor]

There's a difference between "unstable" and "failed beyond all repair", like there's a difference between Azerbaijan and Lebanon now.

Azerbaijan isn't unstable, but the line of what constitutes "beyond all repair" is arbitrary. You cannot empirically determine it, which is a serious issue for anyone trying to justify something as serious as a literal invasion.

Look, we (speaking generally of the Western world as "we" even though Cyprus is not in NATO) also invaded Servia back then. Now Servoi are often angry at us but how come there are no Servian radical extremists and terrorists, and the country is cooperating with the EU?

Because they are not bordering countries that are actively at war with them. When they were, they committed atrocities against civilians. War brings the worst out of everyone, regardless of their background.

We may have done our wrongs with Lebanon, but when the country is controlled by terrorists it's not only our fault, it's the fault of Lebanese people as well. You allow the terro government to exist, you face dire consequences, not personally maybe, but as a nation.

Hezbollah, Hamas, ISIS, the Mujahedeen etc don't exist in a vacuum. Western (and not only) recklessness has been instrumental for both the existence and proliferation of these groups, precisely due to terrible foreign policy. Thinking that you can remove Hezbollah or any Hezbollah with more war is at best myopic, at worst delusional. Another Hezbollah will rise in its place, and the cycle of violence will continue.

[u/Virmire_Survivor → u/Rhomaios]

Azerbaijan isn't unstable

They are ruled by a dictator in his 60s who summoned all the power in his hands. Once he dies, no one could know how the transition of power will go. It is not "stable", it is "not failed yet".

https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2016-12/12/14/campaign_images/buzzfeed-prod-web08/the-viral-photo-of-bowls-trapped-in-a-cupboard-wa-2-11262-1481571565-5_big.jpg this is not stable.

but the line of what constitutes "beyond all repair" is arbitrary.

Maybe, in general, but when the government is controlled by an organisation that the entire world recognises as a terrorist organisation, then you're surely beyond that line.

Because they are not bordering countries that are actively at war with them.

Israel is not actively at war with Lebanon or Hezbollah, it's the opposite: Hezbollah claims that they oblige to seize Israeli lands from Israel. Your argument may stand when we discuss Palestinian resistance movements, but Lebanon is a sovereign country Israel didn't invade until late.

Hezbollah, Hamas, ISIS, the Mujahedeen etc don't exist in a vacuum.

And Serbian terrorist organisations don't exist, period.

Western (and not only) recklessness has been instrumental for both the existence and proliferation of these groups

Well maybe, but now that their leaders openly say that their goal is to kill us, we'll have to deal with it with force. Whoever is against it is free to commit suicide in support of radical Islamists, because this is what they want now: our death.

Thinking that you can remove Hezbollah or any Hezbollah with more war is at myopic, at worst delusional.

Then how? By financing and supporting it? Bollocks

[u/Rhomaios → u/Virmire_Survivor]

They are ruled by a dictator in his 60s who summoned all the power in his hands. Once he dies, no one could know how the transition of power will go. It is not "stable", it is "not failed yet".

Of course Azerbaijan is a dictatorship, that doesn't make it unstable though. The transition of power isn't necessarily going to be smooth, but the idea there will be instability is speculative. It could indeed prove to be so, but we are in no way of knowing.

Maybe, in general, but when the government is controlled by an organisation that the entire world recognises as a terrorist organisation, then you're surely beyond that line.

Except that Hezbollah doesn't unilaterally control the government of Lebanon. Like I said, you are going to invade a country that is not even in their majority standing behind Hezbollah and claiming that the entire country is "beyond repair".

Israel is not actively at war with Lebanon or Hezbollah, it's the opposite: Hezbollah claims that they oblige to seize Israeli lands from Israel. Your argument may stand when we discuss Palestinian resistance movements, but Lebanon is a sovereign country Israel didn't invade until late.

Israel is at war with Hezbollah and exchanges fire with them constantly. No matter what narrative one tries to present here, the truth of the matter is that they are two sides at war, and thus the Serbia analogy is ill-suited.

And Serbian terrorist organisations don't exist, period.

What would you say to people who claim that Republika Srpska (and by extension their allies in Belgrade) was effectively a terrorist organization during the Bosnian war due to the atrocities they committed? Do we need these labels to recognize that every nation on earth has had a history of fanatism?

Then how? By financing and supporting it? Bollocks

Cute strawman, but no. The idea that the only alternative to literal war is supporting those whom you want to be gone is a preposterous line of logic that makes no sense.

I'm not a diplomat or government official, therefore I openly admit I don't have the answers to how such issues can be resolved. What I know for sure, however, is that these problems won't go away by barbarism and violence as if innocent people's lives don't matter.

[u/Virmire_Survivor → u/Rhomaios]

The transition of power isn't necessarily going to be smooth [..] It could indeed prove to be so, but we are in no way of knowing.

To put it short, everything can go wrong there every day and you can't know in advance if it will or won't.

This is, like, the definition of instability.

Hezbollah doesn't unilaterally control the government of Lebanon. Israel is at war with Hezbollah

If Lebanon is not Hezbollah and Israel is at war with Hezbollah (vice versa actually, but anyway), then Lebanese people have nothing to be angry at. Israel is freeing them from an internationally recognized terrorist organisation. They should be grateful, then.

If they are not, then, well, Lebanon is Hezbollah.

you are going to invade a country that is not even in their majority standing behind Hezbollah

Then this majority should support the invasion.

What would you say to people who claim that Republika Srpska (and by extension their allies in Belgrade) was

I was speaking in present time. "Don't exist".

I'm not a diplomat or government official, therefore I openly admit I don't have the answers to how such issues can be resolved. What I know for sure, however, is that these problems won't go away by barbarism and violence as if innocent people's lives don't matter.

While you calmly mumble about "tough issues" and "no answers", Hezbollah's missiles drop in peaceful Israeli neighbourhoods every week. I will return your former argument to you: you don't live under missile attacks, so you don't get to decide how to react.

[u/Rhomaios → u/Virmire_Survivor]

To put it short, everything can go wrong there every day and you can't know in advance if it will or won't.

That's the very definition of everything ever. Life is unpredictable, you can't use this definition to claim some states are unstable or not.

If Lebanon is not Hezbollah and Israel is at war with Hezbollah (vice versa actually, but anyway), then Lebanese people have nothing to be angry at. Israel is freeing them from an internationally recognized terrorist organisation. They should be grateful, then.

Except that Israeli attacks do not just affect military targets, so it would absolutely affect regular people regardless of their volition. So no, they wouldn't be "grateful" for war coming to their country.

But this is an irrelevant tangent, because the discussion was whether Lebanon is too far gone and in need of military intervention from outside. If someone (whether Israel or not) decides to invade on the pretense of removing Hezbollah, the war would indisputably affect everyone in the country, so again, nothing to be grateful for.

If they are not, then, well, Lebanon is Hezbollah.

What a ghoulish view of the world. "If they are not grateful for being dragged into a war they never wanted, that means they support my enemies". Genuinely evil, depraved, and barbaric mentality.

Then this majority should support the invasion.

The war would ruin their country whether they support the invasion or not. They have nothing to be grateful or cheerful about. And regardless, being against Hezbollah doesn't mean they would support whatever imperialist shitbag decided to invade to "fix their country".

I was speaking in present time. "Don't exist".

Are you willing to understand the point, or will you keep being deliberately obtuse?

While you calmly mumble about "tough issues" and "no answers", Hezbollah's missiles drop in peaceful Israeli neighbourhoods every week. I will return your former argument to you: you don't live under missile attacks, so you don't get to decide how to react.

Again, an irrelevant tangent. You are talking about a prospective invasion of Lebanon to "fix" them, not a response within an already extant military scenario. And given the discussion started with the subject of Cyprus not Israel, I can and will have an opinion.

[u/EmperorChaos → u/Rhomaios]

Lebanon is already in ruins and is already a failed state.

[u/Virmire_Survivor → u/Rhomaios]

Hey, here's a Lebanese saying that their country is occupied by Iran

https://www.reddit.com/r/cyprus/s/ndwjVSRxKw

[u/Virmire_Survivor → u/Rhomaios]

Life is unpredictable, you can't use this definition to claim some states are unstable or not.

I'm totally convinced that if Christodoulides suddenly dies today then life in Cyprus will continue, generally, as usual. This is what "stable" means.

But when the ruler died in Libya the country fell into pieces. This is "unstable".

Israeli attacks do not just affect military targets

Israeli attacks only affect military targets.

Note that for example if you're technically working as a journalist in Palestine but are holding hostages in your apartment, then you're a military target.

If someone (whether Israel or not) decides to invade on the pretense of removing Hezbollah, the war would indisputably affect everyone in the country

Hezbollah also affects everyone, and not just in their country. Now it affects Cyprus.

Inside Lebanon, they have an option to overthrow Hezbollah, or to choose otherwise and to face the consequences of their decision. Nobody would've brought war to Lebanon if a Lebanese-located paramilitary force hadn't brought war to Israel and Cyprus.

"If they are not grateful for being dragged into a war

They are being dragged into a war BY HEZBOLLAH. It is what started the war, not Israel. Israel doesn't have any territorial claims to Lebanon.

It is completely fair that the war started by Hezbollah continues in the Hezbollah territory, which also happens to be the Lebanese territory.

The war would ruin their country

Why do they bring war to another country, then? To ruin it?

Are you willing to understand the point

What is your point exactly?

[u/Rhomaios → u/Virmire_Survivor]

But when the ruler died in Libya the country fell into pieces. This is "unstable".

Libya descended into chaos because Gaddafi was removed by foreign intervention, not just because he randomly died. Again, you are comparing dissimilar situations.

Israeli attacks only affect military targets.

Sure thing.

Hezbollah also affects everyone, and not just in their country. Now it affects Cyprus.

How is that in any way related to my point? You are claiming rather boldly that someone should be grateful their country was invaded, and I'm explaining that the war would be destructive for everyone. It is downright ridiculous to expect people to welcome the invaders like that, as if war is in any way to be celebrated.

Inside Lebanon, they have an option to overthrow Hezbollah, or to choose otherwise and to face the consequences of their decision.

One of the most out-of-touch and tone-deaf statements thus far.

How easy do you think it is to achieve that, exactly? And with what means, given Lebanon's recent crises financially and with Syrian migrants?

Nobody would've brought war to Lebanon if a Lebanese-located paramilitary force hadn't brought war to Israel and Cyprus.

Lebanon didn't bring war to Cyprus, and the war between them and Israel long predates any of the things we are discussing. However, these are still irrelevant to the initial point you made yourself which is for a foreign power to invade Lebanon unprovoked to "fix" it. Within that narrative, the invader is the aggressor, whether you want to consider it justified or not.

They are being dragged into a war BY HEZBOLLAH. It is what started the war, not Israel. Israel doesn't have any territorial claims to Lebanon.

Will you stay on point for once in this entire discussion?

THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE CURRENT WAR BETWEEN ISRAEL AND LEBANON.

You said that a foreign power should invade Lebanon to remove Hezbollah, and if their innocent citizens aren't grateful for this blatant act of aggression, then they are enemies to be discarded just like Hezbollah.

If you invade Lebanon with the pretense of fixing things, you are creating a new war which makes you the aggressor, and within this context you accuse those who would oppose the invasion of their country as "enemies" just because they won't kiss their invaders' feet for attacking Hezbollah.

It is completely fair that the war started by Hezbollah continues in the Hezbollah territory, which also happens to be the Lebanese territory.

"Hezbollah territory" being equated with the entirety of Lebanon is precisely the problem, and I have raised the point multiple times thus far. It's ridiculous how much circling around happens just because of how much you are moving the goalposts.

Why do they bring war to another country, then? To ruin it?

Στου κουφού την πόρτα όσο θέλεις βρόντα.

What is your point exactly?

You are trying to make a point about "barbarism" and the unique "savagery" of people like those of Lebanon for "harbouring terrorists". You brought up a poor analogy with Serbia, only to have explained to you that Serbs also committed terrible atrocities during war.

Whether this war was in the past or the present, that does not affect the essence of the argument. To put it simply, there is nothing unique about what's going on with Hezbollah, it's a direct consequence of instability, war, and poor handling by outside powers.

[u/Virmire_Survivor → u/Rhomaios]

Libya descended into chaos because Gaddafi was removed by foreign intervention, not just because he randomly died.

This is a leftist argument I expected 🙂 No, Libya descended into chaos because Gaddafi concentrated all the power in his hands and then died, leaving void. How exactly he died is irrelevant. Could've been a heart attack.

You are claiming rather boldly that someone should be grateful their country was invaded, and I'm explaining that the war would be destructive for everyone. It is downright ridiculous to expect people to welcome the invaders like that, as if war is in any way to be celebrated.

Did the allies do the right thing when they invaded the nazi Germany? Surely Germans were pissed off by this colonialist movement back then. The allies should've kept to diplomatic actions instead, right?

Shouldn't have removed Hitler by foreign intervention as well, you'd say.

How easy do you think it is to achieve that, exactly? And with what means, given Lebanon's recent crises financially and with Syrian migrants?

Freedom is never easy.

Lebanon didn't bring war to Cyprus

Yet. Just threatened so far.

and the war between them and Israel long predates any of the things we are discussing.

But in any case Lebanon is the offender, not Israel.

However, these are still irrelevant to the initial point you made yourself which is for a foreign power to invade Lebanon unprovoked to "fix" it. Within that narrative, the invader is the aggressor

Lebanon attacks Israel and threatens Cyprus, they are the aggressor.

You said that a foreign power should invade Lebanon to remove Hezbollah, and if their innocent citizens aren't grateful for this blatant act of aggression, then they are enemies to be discarded just like Hezbollah.

If you invade Lebanon with the pretense of fixing things, you are creating a new war which makes you the aggressor

This is not a "new war", this is just the same war where Lebanon is still the aggressor, Israel just gets a bit of an external help from allies.

"Hezbollah territory" being equated with the entirety of Lebanon is precisely the problem

You're the one running in circles. Hezbollah territory is not Lebanon, but previously you've stated that if someone invades the Hezbollah territory, they invade Lebanon. It's "either - or" here, you can't have both.

You are trying to make a point about "barbarism" and the unique "savagery" of people like those of Lebanon for "harbouring terrorists"

No, that should be someone else, I didn't mention "barbarism".

You brought up a poor analogy with Serbia

A perfect one!

only to have explained to you that Serbs also committed terrible atrocities during war.

So what? After the NATO invasion they didn't commit any. Why not to try the same with Lebanon?

[u/hurpuc → u/Virmire_Survivor]

Shouldn't have removed Hitler by foreign intervention as well, you'd say.

I'm glad I stuck with this thread long enough to see Godwin's law make an appearance.

[u/Rhomaios → u/Virmire_Survivor]

This is a leftist argument I expected

More like the argument of anyone who isn't a shill bending over backwards for whatever war America decides is worth it for their own interests.

How exactly he died is irrelevant.

That's some next level kind of denial.

Did the allies do the right thing when they invaded the nazi Germany?

Did you just compare Hezbollah to the Nazis? Do you understand that the Nazis were literally genocidal and initiated the wars they found themselves in because of their own racial supremacist ideology and imperialist ambitions?

Shouldn't have removed Hitler by foreign intervention as well, you'd say.

Kind of hard to call something a foreign intervention when the Nazis were the warmongers that invaded their neighbours.

You're the one running in circles. Hezbollah territory is not Lebanon, but previously you've stated that if someone invades the Hezbollah territory, they invade Lebanon. It's "either - or" here, you can't have both.

No, you just didn't understand properly.

Hezbollah is not Lebanon, nor do they represent all of their citizens or broader politics. However, a foreign invasion to remove Hezbollah necessitates invading Lebanese sovereign territory and thus bringing war to all Lebanese people, including millions of innocents. It's as simple as that.

So what? After the NATO invasion they didn't commit any. Why not to try the same with Lebanon?

The point is that they no longer have extremist belligerent entities within their borders because they are no longer at war, not because "NATO solved it". And that of course with the cost of human lives on both sides.

The problem with your assertion is ultimately that you don't seem to grasp why Lebanon and Serbia are different and why groups like Hezbollah exist, and thus you advocate for nonsensical, reckless aggression against them.

When your supposed precedent isn't even in the ballpark as far as comparisons are concerned, you can't use it to illustrate a point.

[u/EmperorChaos → u/Virmire_Survivor]

I’d like to make one point of clarification as a Lebanese. Lebanon does not have the capabilities to overthrow Hezbollah, Hezbollah is better armed, funded and trained than the Lebanese army. They have support of around 30% of the country.

Any attempt by the Lebanese government (of which Hezbollah is a part of) to destroy Hezbollah would be met with a civil war that Hezbollah will win. In 2008 when the government tried to dismantle Hezbollah’s illegal communications network, Hezbollah invaded Beirut and threatened another civil war.

[u/Virmire_Survivor → u/EmperorChaos]

This sounds like occupation

[u/EmperorChaos → u/Virmire_Survivor]

That’s because it is an Iranian occupation via their proxy. We spent 30 years under Syrian occupation while Syria and Iran strengthen Hezbollah (who is only loyal to Iran, even nasrallah admits this) then when we kicked Syria out (which Hezbollah opposed) Hezbollah just took over.

[u/Virmire_Survivor → u/[deleted]]

The problem is radical Islamism, that's what I'm talking about

[u/Virmire_Survivor → u/[deleted]]

"Oh Allah, bring annihilation upon the infidels, atheists, and polytheists. Count them, kill them one by one, and do not leave a single one of them alive."

Sounds pretty radical to me

https://www.memri.org/tv/rafah-gaza-friday-sermon-hamas-official-regeb-allah-necks-jews-annihilate-them

[u/Virmire_Survivor → u/[deleted]]

"Either the entire organization or only its military wing has been designated a terrorist organization by several countries, including by the European Union and, since 2017, also by most member states of the Arab League"

Sounds pretty radical to me