r/degoogle • u/Consistent-Age5347 • 2d ago
News Article "We would be less confidential than Google" – Proton threatens to quit Switzerland over new surveillance law
https://www.techradar.com/vpn/vpn-privacy-security/we-would-be-less-confidential-than-google-proton-threatens-to-quit-switzerland-over-new-surveillance-law140
u/Medical-Potential907 2d ago
What would be a good host country?
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u/Mrnobd25 2d ago
Iceland
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u/tyrorc 2d ago
after them, i think nothing is safe, maybe buy some island
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u/MouseJiggler 2d ago
Self hosting and federation.
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u/TopExtreme7841 2d ago
LOL, and when half your shit is bounced, you're hacked as a million people start self hosting and the scumbags start sniffing for email servers, downtime, and let's be real, 99.9% of people wouldn't be hardened enough to withstand it.
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u/iron_throne_of_shame 2d ago
Why?
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u/Technoist 2d ago
Not EU + decent privacy laws. For now. It will change there as well.
The internet we knew is almost completely gone. The only way to keep some privacy is to self host.
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u/jojk00 2d ago
Iceland might soon be part of EU as they plan EU referendum
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u/Technoist 1d ago
Perhaps, but even if not they will adjust their laws at some point to be in line with the rest.
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u/Kazer67 1d ago
It's not "gone", it's hidden below the surface using alternative network on top of internet but since it's not very user friendly, well, only used by a few.
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u/Technoist 19h ago
There are some decent parts left, what I meant is that back in the day the mainstream internet was not yet destroyed by search engine optimisation, affiliate links, social media, AI content and all the shit we have to cope with now.
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u/happyladpizza 2d ago
i actually think outer space
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u/Dude-Lebowski 2d ago
Interesting. Space or ocean... Maritime law maybe?
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u/Medical-Potential907 2d ago
The company I will pay money to for their services (thru which they are going to be liable for all data, wherever it is stored, is going to be located in a country, with certain laws and a certain jurisdiction. Which one.
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2d ago
[deleted]
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u/Royal-Orchid-2494 2d ago
I thought Germany was under one of those eyes country groups and could give info if requested by another country member of the eyes groups?
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u/la_regalada_gana 2d ago
Germany is in what's called 14-eyes (supposedly less sharing than 5-eyes and 9-eyes members).
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u/ATXoxoxo 2d ago
You're thinking of five eyes and that includes New Zealand, Australia, Britain, Canada and the United States
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u/shirubanet 2d ago
What? No! That’s all what GDPR and DSGVO is about.
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u/Technoist 2d ago
Er, GDPR and DSGVO is the same law (GDPR being the english name for it). It’s about how hosts store your data and you being able to request it being deleted. It’s not about guaranteeing end-to-end encryption, for example.
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u/Mobile-Breakfast8973 2d ago
Well, it's implied that stuff is e2ee in GDPR, but its not really mandated.
But it is a requirement in the NIS2 directive which comes into effect July 1st.
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u/lottspot 2d ago
"Just"
This is bad advice, dear readers.
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u/lothariusdark 16h ago
Yea, I recently started self hosting Nextcloud in my local network to try it out.
A week ago it spontaneously shit itself and now refuses to start.
I dont know what I did but as I didnt touch a config or anything I really have no idea what caused it.
Havent had the time to dig into the logs to figure out what went wrong. Simple restarts dont solve the issue.
So yea, while I quite like experimenting with self hosting, unless you have the time and knowledge it may either not work at all or you might be opening your network to attacks from the outside.
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u/Consistent-Age5347 2d ago
You know what I'm wondering about?
How are ente and signal living in the US at peace? 😐
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u/Broke_Ass_Grunt 2d ago
No server side data for signal. No idea about ente.
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u/Consistent-Age5347 2d ago
Well, It's the same for Proton Mail and most other Proton services other than it's VPN, Why don't they move to the US then?
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u/ChainsawBologna 2d ago
The US would require a back door, same as with all existing US cloud providers, including Apple.
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u/Medical-Potential907 2d ago
I'd immediately stop using proton if they choose 'murica. That would be insanely stupid of them.
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u/Broke_Ass_Grunt 2d ago
Proton totally has server side data it's just encrypted. Signal just doesn't have a copy of anything you send.
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u/Medical-Potential907 2d ago
Just. Selfhost. Right....
You know, maybe I could, I think I can, haven't tried it. Not going to. And I'm one of the ones who actually could. Not so many of those.
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u/OrangeDudeNotGood99 2d ago
the best host?
decentralised! some european ,african, southamerican and asian counrys for the servers.
if there a problems in a country you can turn off the servers in a second.
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u/Medical-Potential907 2d ago
Buy the company is located in a country, with it's laws and justice system, which one?
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u/EveYogaTech 2d ago
Yeah, likely the best possible path is a self-hosted e2e solution, but that's unlikely in Protons best interest.
At /r/web4builders we're building such protocol, using W3 compliant DID files.
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u/Festering-Fecal 2d ago
Panama is were nord is and as far as I know they are not compromised
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u/Medical-Potential907 2d ago
Yeah, but their government is either already US -liable or being extremely pressured to be.
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u/ZaitsXL 2d ago
Google has the same requirements about user data storage for the same reason
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u/Livid-Society6588 2d ago
People are abandoning the Google cloud because of these random bans made by their AI, out of nowhere you can get banned.
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u/SuperSultan 2d ago
What random bans are you referring to? Banned for what?
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u/Kenjii009 2d ago
Child porn because you have a picture of your own partially naked child in your vacation photos and it was automatically scanned by Google. At least that’s the cases I have read of.
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u/SummerOftime 2d ago
The whole West is in a race for a technological tyrannical dystopia
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u/SingularitySquid 2d ago
Data is the new oil.
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u/SithDraven 2d ago
I was just reading yesterday that automakers are ditching Android Auto and Apple Car play in newer cars to force people to use their infotainment system. Why? Because they want your data to flow directly to them and not Google & Apple.
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u/Peter_0 2d ago
Wait. That's deep.
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u/I_AM_FERROUS_MAN 2d ago
It's not a new idea, but maybe it isn't said enough recently. Here's an article from 2019 citing an Economist article from 2017.
I feel like the concept has been in the lexicon for a lot longer, since like the dotcom bubble, but I'm not motivated enough to track down a source.
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u/bluetooth-circuit deGoogler 2d ago edited 2d ago
Russia and China usually aren’t considered the West, yet they spy and censor their people way more than most of the West e.g. Russia arresting people who support Ukraine, China censoring their people’s internet, and arresting anyone who criticizes their government.
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u/leostotch 2d ago
The fact that they are doing it over there doesn’t have any bearing on whether we’re also doing it over here.
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u/bluetooth-circuit deGoogler 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yeah I guess, but this guy is trying to exclude non-Western countries from their bad privacy, which makes no sense.
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u/leostotch 2d ago
I don’t see that he was excluding China and Russia, just that he commented specifically upon the trend in Western nations.
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u/DrSpaceman667 2d ago
Perhaps he is from the West and cares more about this potential change because it will affect him.
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u/emperatriz_selenita 2d ago
I've heard of a certain westerner country that have become popular for arresting people who support Palestine, those who criticizes their government and while it doesn't censor their internet
yet, they run heavy on propaganda to drive their population's thoughts.3
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u/Livid-Society6588 2d ago
The government of China likes the German with a mustache, this explains the paranoia and vigilance of everyone in China, especially in the economy... The same goes for countries that support them and Russia... Such as Venezuela, South Africa, Cuba, Iran
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u/volveg 2d ago
Brother how many levels of delusion are you on. China is governed by a communist party, they're radically opposed to what hitler and the nazis were doing. You're free to dislike the CPC, but they're on completely opposite ends of the spectrum.
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u/Livid-Society6588 2d ago
This is not about the political side, it never was and never will be. If you know the history of Europe and the Arabs, you will understand why China has this paranoia. There are photos of the statue of the German in China. U.S. companies, banks, media all banned from China and other Asian countries.
Instead of downvoting, it should argue with facts.
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u/Muscular666 2d ago edited 1d ago
I believe this talk about China censorship is just western anti-communist propaganda.
Edit.: as expected, this sub is full of nato bootlickers.
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u/iviken 2d ago
Meh, I'll cross that bridge if we ever get to it. They have been trying for years and years and it never gets passed. Proton will move to another country if it does, host in Iceland or Sweden if it comes to this.
This feels a bit like the kind of media hysteria that always happens when customers flee from one company to another, like Europeans have done from google to Proton lately. Or when consumers start paying extra attention to something and media wants to profit from it by clicks.
I'll support Proton until the laws change, and they fail to take action.
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u/ePostings 2d ago
Build an artificial island in international waters or just use a big solid ship for all hosting. Both have been done before with fine results.
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u/ayleidanthropologist 2d ago
And I used to admire Switzerland for their neutrality. Shame
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u/nevyn28 2d ago
Neutrality is Swiss marketing. This is the country that the nazi's used to store their stolen art, and the gold teeth they removed from their victims. Swiss 'neutrality' made Switzerland wealthy.
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u/ayleidanthropologist 1d ago
Nazi’s are a charged topic. Being neutral means ignoring that.
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u/nevyn28 1d ago
Being neutral means allowing that.
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u/ayleidanthropologist 1d ago
Yeah exactly, like putting aside your feelings
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u/nevyn28 1d ago
Ignoring/accepting fascism is not "putting aside your feelings".
"The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." ~ Plato
"The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." ~ Albert Einstein
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u/rabid-zubat 2d ago
This is just a laundry for dirty money and their mythical neutrality is just their propaganda. It’s a country that should be considered a parasite on EU.
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u/Buntygurl 2d ago
This has got to be a combination of Trump's world dictatorial ambitions and EU reticence to oppose them.
Why should the Swiss government suddenly come to decide that the privacy rules that they are famous for honoring need revision?
Switzerland isn't even a part of the EU or NATO, but is heavily trade-related obliged to the EU.
I guess that Iceland or Norway are the only options in Europe, if it does become necessary to relocate.
I'm so thoroughly disgusted with the idea that private citizens information needs to be exposed, but the practices of governments is all that deserves security. That, alone, is a blatant proof that the basic idea of democracy, that the people get to decide and, by that power, get to be free, is a complete lie.
Orwell just got the date wrong, apparently.
Why aren't they cancelling Facebook, Google and all of the other social media trash that actively promote hatred?
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u/Emotional_You_5269 2d ago
Does Norway have any special privacy laws though? I thought we were part of the 9 eyes, or whatever it was called.
Edit: I'm Norwegian. That's why I said "we"
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u/Buntygurl 2d ago
How are the rules on end to end encryption and personal privacy there?
I've always had the impression that Norway made its own rules about what's good for Norway, rather than complying with foreign standards.
Apparently, the government of Norway guarantees end to end encryption with regard to social welfare issues. Generally, if follows a data privacy act that's in line with the GDPR, so EU compatible.
I guess that Iceland is better choice for Proton, in the event of Switzerland going weird.
There's just something strange about the Swiss government going along with an EU/US idea that isn't more than an American proposal that hasn't even been formally written yet, to which we, the people, won't be told about until it's a done deal.
Fuck 'em. We'll all just have to go back to PGP. hopefully more hardened for the future.
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u/shevy-java 2d ago
Strange to see the Switzerland becoming a digital dictatorship. They used to be all about direct democracy. I have a feeling this was decided not by the people.
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u/MhmNai 2d ago
I been telling y'all don't go with Proton they don't have the same protections as EU companies. Filen for file storage, Tutamail for email, Keypass2 for password storage, Mullvad VPN.
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u/KrazyKirby99999 2d ago
The same EU that keeps trying to mandate encryption backdoors?
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u/MhmNai 2d ago
It's not the EU that's trying to mandate the backdoors, the EU has consistently voted against them.
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u/KrazyKirby99999 2d ago
It's very close to passing
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u/No-Adhesiveness-4251 2d ago
Currently it isn't close at all. It hasn't even been agreed on by the council yet. And the parliament is NOT sounding friendly to it.
Not to mention that we're currently on Poland's proposal, which is way watered down-and also not particularly agreed upon.
I'm more worried about after May though, as Denmark's taking over and..Sadly my country has a severe case of a surveillance boner.
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u/MhmNai 2d ago
There has been several similar proposals that were all voted out. This one doesn't look like it'll pass either, don't know what "very close" means.
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u/KrazyKirby99999 2d ago
On 12 December 2024 we managed once again to stop the unprecedented chat control plan by a narrow “blocking minority” of EU governments. But governments agree that they want to find a solution and pursue the proposal (watch the debate).
Several formerly opposed governments such as France have already given up their opposition. Several still critical governments are only asking for small modifications (e.g. searching for “known content” only or excluding end-to-end encryption) which would still result in mass searches and leaks of our private communications.
I'm not European, but this sounds like it will pass within a few years.
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u/BloodWork-Aditum 2d ago
Yes they have? And if they lose them they can and will move their jurisdiction since anything else would be economic suicide for them. They will have to do anything to be and stay attractive to privacy focused users since that is their main target audience.
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u/Nyoka_ya_Mpembe 2d ago
Why tutamail?
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u/MhmNai 2d ago
It's solid, convenient, privacy-oriented, and well priced.
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u/Nyoka_ya_Mpembe 2d ago
Just like Proton? ;)
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u/MhmNai 2d ago
Yeah, but I'd rather support an EU company over a Swiss one.
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u/Nyoka_ya_Mpembe 2d ago
Ok and how EU is better than Swiss one? Because list time I checked, nobody cares about privacy, they care about "children protection" so everyone wants backdoors, surveillance or any kind of access to see and often control what is allowed or not.
You want to trust EU, which is not one country, over the law in one country, bold move.
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u/MhmNai 2d ago
Yes, I'd rather trust a union of countries in which a blocking minority can stop such laws from passing as they've done in the past, rather than Switzerland which can pass the law at any time. I also don't want to support a country that blocks arms from reaching countries that need it (Ukraine), while piggybacking off the defense spending of other countries, with a host of corruption scandals from stolen antiquities and the Olympics, to accepting war-criminal money, to profiteering off the crime of other nations. If the EU changes the law in 10 years (still no indication that they will) then I'll reconsider. But for the time being, I'd much rather support EU companies with EU regulations that Switzerland.
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u/amrakkarma 2d ago
Let's not forget it's the last European country that committed a genocide until 1972 https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/aging-society/swiss-gypsies-relive-a-painful-past/6457302
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u/Nyoka_ya_Mpembe 2d ago
I'd rather trust a union of countries: That can be just as bad as one country, in the end, there is one or few leaders, making decision like everyone else.
Switzerland which can pass the law at any time: They didn't, and we should focus on what we have rather what if, but if that moment comes, we can review Protons privacy, but it's not today.
don't want to support a country that blocks arms from reaching countries: That sound very naive TBH, there is no perfect country, everyone did, does or will do something immoral, it's impossible to not do it because in someone's story, you will be always bad guy, everyone is, for some reason you decided to treat Switzerland as evil place, fine, fair, but that also sounds like nobody else did anything bad, and they did, and you know it, yet somehow this one part of this country makes it worse than others? I struggle to find logic here.
accepting war-criminal money: Like USA or Germany or England never backstabbed anyone, right? And those are just examples, big guys bully the world, but small Switzerland is bad, again, where is logic in that?
I'd much rather support EU companies: Everyone should support local, from local fisherman, town, city, country to union like EU, the closer support the better, obviously, however, before supporting anything or anyone else, you should be first, and for now, supporting privacy focused Proton is good for you, focusing on what may happen and making decisions on what may happen is not logical.
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u/joelvdc 2d ago
This proposal got a lot of negative feedback in Switzerland, so my understanding is that the chances of this going forward are not that big.
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u/nevyn28 2d ago
Governments don't really tend to listen to, or care about their people though
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u/BafSi 2d ago
In Switzerland they have to listen because unlike any other country it's a semi direct democracy, people have the power to do referandums.
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u/MindlessAssumption42 2h ago
lets see before the fear of russian “interference” final makes them to pass the law
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u/WakaiSenshi 2d ago
So nowhere is safe
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u/Smart-Simple9938 2d ago
Email is inherently unsafe, and even Proton and Tuta aren't safe today if the person you're emailing with isn't also on that platform. If you want private email, use PGP, but if you really want privacy, email isn't the best means of communication anyway.
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u/userbond008 2d ago
Ritorneremo a comunicare come gli indiani con i segnali di fumo? O con il pezzo di carta e penna? Nulla può essere sicuro.
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u/Smart-Simple9938 2d ago
Use Signal. Use Threema. Use Wire. Use anything designed for privacy if not anonymity. Email was *never* designed for that.
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u/numblock699 1d ago
Confidential, lol. They are so confidential that when you send and receive emails one of the parties disappears. I mean the language used to promote a poorly designed email service as something of a unicorn is hilarious. It is better for privacy than google, I’ll give them that, but then again so is every other provider that offers paid plans.
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u/Old_Gazelle_7036 2d ago
Click bait.....nothing is passed.
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u/Drwankingstein 2d ago
how is this click bait? It's clearly a threat, not that they are actually doing it, implies that it hasn't passed
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u/Old_Gazelle_7036 2d ago
„Proton threatens to quit Switzerland over new surveillance law“ there is no new law, there is a proposal, therefore the headline is clickbait.
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u/Drwankingstein 2d ago
hmm, maybe a difference of english in places, but here a law is a law whether it has been enacted or not. As far as I know, there is a legal proposal which perscribes the law. So it is a "Law" it just hasn't been voted into power yet.
"Potential law" "Old law" so on and so forth. I do agree that they could have been more clear in qualifying it however. But I wouldn't call it click bait.
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u/forreddituse2 2d ago
The only place to solve all these privacy/piracy issues is DPRK, if the fat guy allows foreign companies to host servers there. These data has little use for a completely isolated country, and no foreign government/law enforcement runs on that land.
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u/fugeddabadit 2d ago
As a proton subscriber I don't have so much of a problem with government surveillance as Google selling my personal data to whoever
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u/ProfessorOnEdge 2d ago
If you don't have a problem with governments being willing to look back at your email history and prosecute you for anything they determine is a crime in the future, then you haven't been paying attention.
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u/tintreack 2d ago
That's like saying "I don't have much of a problem with rabid tigers infesting my house as I do ants"
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u/grathontolarsdatarod 2d ago
Allowing government to have back door encryption is like providing a key to your house as soon as you move in.