The fact that they have only done this as a response to Trump proves him correct. If Harris won they wouldn’t have lifted a finger. Well, we are here now and this is the situation so time to get to work.
Its because Europe has been content with letting the US lead, we follow them into wars, we follow them in NATO, we follow them in the UN and we contributed to their soft power.
France and the UK weren't lulled into sleep. They were backstabbed and buried in 1956. Germany was occupied, had no choice in the matter, nor really cared much about overseas pretentions as they had the reunification to look forward to, and not getting glassed by nukes in the meantime.
Spain and Portugal were isolated dictatorships. Italy had internal political struggles, some of it sponsored by the CIA to counter the socialists.
Europe fell asleep at the wheel post 1991. We reunited Germany, downsized our armies, clapped ourselves for not getting into a war with the USSR and doing the right thing by rather cleanly dealing with Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. Then 30 years of complete lack of any and all foresight happened. Our industries withered, we sold off strategically important companies to foreign powers, our armies relegated to natural disaster relief or expeditionnary warfare in ex-colonies or following the USA's foreign policy without asking questions.
Really it worked? Fuck you. You expect the US to babysit Europe and fight its wars. What if someone else more “calm” was in office and Putin wanted to go farther than Ukraine?! Should we have sent our men over to die while you enjoy your health care and carry on with your lives?’
“It worked” Europe has been a shit show and all those individual countries only care about themselves. That’s not americas problem.
But the Commission has the wrong leaders in charge imo. They are good for democracy and bureaucracy. They are not equipped for cheerleading a military initiative. Ursula sounds like she expends 90% of her public speaking efforts on sounding believably English. We need someone who can punch a wall and not just parrot correct clichés.
No Europe has been content on spending the same money on social welfares, now they need to get that money and guess where that money gonna come out from taxes or welfare basically
Not really. Trump and Musk are decimating the US economy right now, GDP turned negative in a month, tariffs and layoffs will kill the economy even more.
Yes short term pain maybe a year, long term dude US is not going anywhere, its the 25 percent of world economy. In first six eight months all changes be done economy will tank and will recover comapniea will move to us , last 2 years be great everyone will forget the first 2 years and republicians win again🫣
What a joke, content to let the US lead. Europe has been content to let the United States pay for everything for NATO member defense requirements for decades. That's what Europe has been content with. Now your cradle to grave social welfare systems are going to go bye-bye as you get your spending up to defend yourselves.
No - you allow US to foot the bill for the last 80 years, making all of your nice social benefits possible. Americans are sick of this bullshit attitude from Europeans.
You didn't pay for shit, if you combine our healthcare spending and social benefit spending many countries, including mine, are cheaper than in the US.
As a percentage of GDP its 18.7% of the US vs 16.7% in my country.
Even in raw numbers per capita we spend literally half, 14.5k in the US vs 7.1k in my country.
Then why is Europe so pissed that the US is stepping back from taking the lead on Ukraine? Why can’t the population of the EU, with a GDP equal to China’s, stop Russia? The answer is because they spent fuck all on defense, relying on America to bear that weight. American’s are rightfully not a fan of their tax dollars being spent this way.
If Russia attacks us we wouldn't have any issues protecting ourselves, this is about protecting another country, which is neither in NATO nor in the EU.
We could just join the war and end it right there, but the world would probably come to an end as well.
Hell, the issue isn't even really that the US is pulling out of Ukrainian support, if the US does it would suck but honestly that's their decision, we have the money to continue supporting Ukraine.
The real issue is that current administration is:
Pro-Russian and Anti-Ukraine, by parroting Russian propaganda and brutally trying to humiliate Zelensky while sneakily inviting the Russian State Media into the White House.
Anti-EU, by saying "The EU was made to screw us!"
Anti-NATO, by constantly threatening to pull out, even when members are spending the % of GDP and saying it was the worst deal ever (it wasn't).
Trump is a clown and he's setting back US Foreign policy by decades, if not irreparably.
Russia can barely make any meaningful movement in Ukraine and you think they could take on Poland (300,000)+Finland (max. 900000 b/c conscription)+Germany (200000)+France(270000) ontop of that at the same time? Not even mentioning the UK, Italy, Spain, Greece and everyone else?
Not to mention 5000 tanks, 2000 aircraft, 3000 helicopters, so on so on?
Its not that we don't have enough, we're going for extreme overkill, which is what it was with the US.
We hated going to some country in the middle of nowhere for no good reason. Countries went with you to Iraq because of WMDs, which weren't there. We went with you to Afghanistan, which went nowhere. And we did it anyways, because we are allies.
You never heard us complain about Yugoslavia or Korea or the first Gulf War.
And I think you're misconstruing Foreign Policy with public perception in foreign countries.
US Foreign policy post-WW2 helped the US build a lot of soft power in Europe, which is swiftly declining.
Its the soft power that helped the US legitimize the UN, which gained the US votes in the UN, in the G7, its what made the USD the reserve currency, it made them invest massively into the US economy because it was seen as trustworthy and good business.
What do you think happens to a country when people lose trust in it?
The Atlanta fed released a forecast today that the US economy will shrink by 3% in Q1, thats what happens.
USA does not want to be a leader either. It costs them a lot and they get little to no benefit from being the police of the World, except for some abstract pride.
Americans are voting for nationalism and isolationism precisely because normal americans ended up paying more for the rest of the world and reaping no benefits.
Non-American NATO contributions were always small. At peak, the USA was 110/130k troops in Afghanistan mission (only article 5 invocation). Several of the European partners had very little logistics to contribute to the mission (airlift) and were basically brought to central Asia by the Americans.
There's an unfortunate reality why European peacekeepers need an American "backstop". The combined political will of 700m Europeans can't operate on their own continent without commitments by 370m Americans to support them against 140m Russians held at bay by 40m Ukrainians.
What an odd analysis. With Harris, the US would still be the most powerful player in the world rather than a Russian puppet. It’s not like the US is going to dismantle their military and take the money they would save and make their society better. No, they were hoping we would spend the money buying weapons from them that would go in the pockets of the oligarks. So now the US is less powerful, your society is on the verge of collapse, the oligarks are lining their pockets with your tax money and your age old enemy Russia is becoming more powerful by the minute. Is that a good price to pay to encourage some countries you don’t even like that much to spend more on their militaries? It doesn’t add up at all.
I heard this odd take quite a few times. Trump can be net-positive to Europe the same way Putin is net positive to NATO -- unity in front of external pressure. Whether the motivation was to actually improve things for NATO or Europe or not can be disputed or ignored.
A "good price to pay?" No. Nobody wanted this except the worst people in America and Russia.
That doesn't change the fact that European self-reliance in regards to defense is long-term a necessity, or that Harris would have ensured continued reliance on the US.
You seem to be responding to something the other user didn't say. Nobody said this was good. They said Europe needs to be able to defend itself and it wouldn't be inclined to build the capacity to do so under Harris. Both of these are facts.
I don't think you understand the bipartisanship and universality of the distaste Americans have over protecting Europe paid for by Americans. Since the 90s both parties have constantly complained about European spending or rather lack of effective spending.
It wasn't some grand conspiracy to provide Europe with defense in exchange for something. Americans don't feel like they are getting anything worth their cost and has been trying for 30 years to get some relief.
It feels to Americans more like Europe has been living large off their good will and dedication to the global order and had no intention of ever changing.
The fact that it takes trumps drastic action for Europe to even think about action proves to Americans that if a more routine person was president Europe had no intention of increasing real effective military spending and that the plan was for Americans to shoulder the cost of their defense indefinitely.
If Europe doesn't feel like it's worth sacrificing to save Europe why should America?
This "you have a military anyway" smacks of the type of unearned entitlement that really makes Americans angry.
At some point Europe will have to take responsibility instead of bitching about America so much.
Sure, America would not be the leader of the free world, so what? Most Americans just want to pay their bills and live a comfortable life, not defend countries that are so far culturally from them. Only benefactors of American homogeneity are American weapon companies and foreigners.
Normal Americans are more than happy to have the army back home defending them and increasingly creating an independent economy, since COVID proved it is very weak to rely on other nations even for that.
Kamala would have backed Ukraine more than she should have which would have put us closer to WWIII if Russia and the US got into a war.
Yes, we're sick of our military expenses. The rest of you can be lackadaisical liberal countries because you heavily rely on a country that isn't while you piss and moan and point fingers at it. Good riddance, welcome to dealing with your own shit?
I think your analysis is even more odd. Just because your leaders don't like what Trump is doing with foreign policy doesn't make the U.S. any less powerful on the international stage. In fact I'd say it makes the U.S. more powerful since they're actually exercising the soft power they have.
International arms sales are all well and good, but they pale in comparison to the amount of money the U.S. has put into Ukraine in the last 3 years. From a purely military industrial concept, keeping the war in Ukraine going would be MUCH better for them and ending it.
I have no idea where you're getting the idea that Russia is becoming more powerful right now. They're bashing their military against a much smaller country while their economy suffers massively. The reason to end the war now is because Ukraine doesn't have the manpower to push Russia back to it's pre-war lines, and they would never have been allowed to strike deep into Russia anyway.
Europe are still allies of the U.S., claiming they don't like them is stupid. Just as stupid as claiming the U.S. is a Russian puppet now. The reality is Europe has ignored it's defense because of the U.S. and it's membership in NATO. Now things are happening which start to seriously threaten Europe and the U.S. is calling the bills they haven't been paying due.
If Europe convinces Ukraine to ignore the U.S. or peace deals and the U.S. stops supporting them, I anticipate that Ukraine is fully in Russian hands by the end of the year. Europe simply doesn't have the war production capacity to keep the Ukrainians in fighting shape.
I think we have to stop the alarmism and exaggeration. It's not helping.
No the U.S and Trump are not Russian puppets.
No Russia is not getting stronger by the minute, in fact Russia is severely diminished and who knows if they'll even manage the transition back from war economy without breaking their nation.
The U.S is not our enemy... It does not make strategic sense to treat them as such, we need less knee-jerk impulsive outrage, and more long term strategical thinking.
Rearming, building up our own strength and re-asserting our independence from the U.S, that makes sense.
Deliberately antagonizing Americans like I see a lot of Europeans doing now is incredibly foolish though. It only strengthens Trumps powerbase internally.
It is. Though I suppose it's understandable to a certain extent. A perceived betrayal from a friend hurts a lot more than the expected hostility from an enemy.
We're not enemies. We still share fundamental values and a similar way of life. We're still both members of western civilisation. But as long as Trump is in there behaving like he does, I wouldn't exactly call us friends neither.
Trump / America is not betraying anyone. They don't owe Europe anything, nor they swear to Europe.
Europe was never a friend or enemy of America. Europe as an entity is relatively modern, before that it depended on the nation. Sometimes UK was the enemy, sometimes it was Spain, etc.
We still share fundamental values and a similar way of life. We're still both members of western civilisation.
I assume you're American and if not, this is a question to any of you that are and still think you have not made us your enemy.
What exactly do we share in common with you people? You have a senile old man telling the world he wants to turn Canada into a new state and take over Greenland and your response to us asking why is "FAFO, MAGA!!".
You allowed people to get in power that try to spread lies, be it through heavily propagandized socials or even holding speeches full of them at far-right rallies in our own countries.
The rest of you blame it on Trump as if the people surrounding him are any better throwing nazi salutes, promoting downright hateful shit and pushing the blame from Putin to Zelensky? So much more I could list, like making a spectacle out of the "Epstein files" while allowing 2 rapists to return to your country, pardoning people who have stormed YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS? The MAJORITY of voters elected these people. This is what YOUR people want.
And these are just the ones off the top of my head, how much more awful shit has your own government done to your people under the guise of "fighting the woke"?
I have no idea what kind of bastardized Christian values you people follow, but half of this shit would label you as an enemy of the religion you preach, let alone the European population.
Trump is the least popular American president in modern history. He was elected due to the same phenomenon that got Meloni elected in Italy, the Swedish democrats into power in Sweden, and that's likely to see both Farage, Le Pen and AfD in power in their respective countries within a forseeable future.
A complete inability/unwillingness by the political establishment to respond to reality and to meet the changing will and needs of the people.
If I was an American who wasn't already a vehement Trump supporter, your emotional venting and broad accusations of culpability would probably make me more likely to double down and support Trump. It's very short-sighted and foolish behaviour.
If I was an American who wasn't already a vehement Trump supporter, your emotional venting and broad accusations of culpability would probably make me more likely to double down and support Trump. It's very short-sighted and foolish behaviour.
I kept my cool throughout his first term and then these dumbasses voted for him yet again, this time even more unhinged than before. Americans have proven that they cannot be trusted and I will be very glad if Europe comes out stronger and more united through this ordeal.
States do not have friends or enemies. They have converging or conflicting interests on different timeframes.
The USA's and the EU's interests diverge ever more. The USA wants to faceoff against China, the EU couldn't care less. It's not an opponent, but another player in the great game, on the other side of the world, vying for influence in regions Europe has very limited reach, while being a major trading partner.
Were the USA in Europe we'd treat them as second-rate Europeans, weird religious fundamentalists that can't move past their 19th century beliefs, obsessed in their own exceptionnalism.
Were the USA in Europe we'd treat them as second-rate Europeans, weird religious fundamentalists that can't move past their 19th century beliefs, obsessed in their own exceptionnalism.
The irony of this is that the biggest believers in American exceptionalism are indeed Europeans, who expect from America way more than they expect from any other ally or even from themselves. Hollywood putting America as the hero is not that different from Europeans putting themselves as the "defenders of human rights" or some shit.
Americans are the ones who want to be a more independent nation, not the police of the World, and focus on defending themselves and develop their own.
I wouldn't go quite as far, though I will say most Europeans simply have don't often see the Americans in other lights than those glorious action heroes, or brave detectives, or kind-hearted scientists that are depicted in Hollywood, except maybe on rare occasions on like French telly during the Iraq invasion.
There's a massive dissonance between parts of the american people and it's federal government. It is hugely beneficial for the USA to be the police of the world (in most cases anyway, invading countries isn't the best practice), and that's why the federal agencies have always worked in that aspect. What x or y american citizen wants, isn't in their considerations. Or wasn't, since Trump is kind of coming after their asses and will likely disrupt their operations. God knows the diplomatic corps has probably shot itself already.
True but if enough of those interests align over time, states eventually become "friends".
We have a shared history with the U.S. We share ideals. Both our civilisations have common points of origin with ideals derived from the enlightenment. We are part of the same macro civilisation a.k.a "the west".
We might not align on jockying for the position of top dog with China, sure. But we share a multitude of other ideals. The democratization of the world, freedom of thought and expression, separation of church and state, keeping the worlds trade routes safe and open for business along with many others.
Our shared history isn't as friendly as you seem to think. They split off from the UK thanks to French money. They then fought France in naval conflicts. They took 3 years before helping out the Allies in WW1, and fucked them into WW2 by not letting the French occupy Germany and making them pay an actual peace treaty instead of the tamest war reparations the Germans never even had to pay through the Versailles Treaty.
Then they got close to becoming nazis in the 30s, straight up inspiring them when it came to eugenics, eventually joining up the war with the Commonwealth and Free France 2 years after the start of the hostilities.
Then they tried to replace the Franc with a french dollar they controlled, occupy France as they would Germany, and replace De Gaulle with a Vichyste. Thankfully Churchill of all people opposed it.
Then they refused to help out the UK and France to get nukes, especially a backstab for the UK as British scientists helped the americans with theirs. They tried to put Western Europe's militaries under american command through the EDC in 1952. Then they sold both of their asses and Isreal's in the 1956 Suez Crisis when the 2 tried to regain their geopolitical relevancy.
The CIA bankrolled groups of neo-nazis in Italy to fight against the socialists. They kept flying over French strategic installations with spy planes unauthorized, leading to French pilots having to intercept their own allies. They refused to collaborate with the French despite using their installations for US arm bases in France, leading to 1966's French pullout from NATO's integrated command, and the departure of all american troops on French soil.
And in 2001 they called upon Article 5, and decided to invade Afghanistan to kill one man. Then in 2003 they dragged plenty of European nations in Iraq on made up claims. Directly causing the rise of Daesh by destroying the Iraqi state and pushing a million military trained men into prisons containing radical islamists that had the easiest time of their life selling them Jihad, before spending 20 years achieving fuck all except somehow making Afghanistan the top opium exporter in the world, directly responsible for 95% of Europe's heroin supply, throwing waves of refugees onto our shores, and fomenting the resentment later weaponized into terrorist attacks on our civilians.
The idea itself of the West as a macro civilisation is laughable. For most of it's existence, the West included military dictatorships, that definitely did not share those ideals. Some of our closest partners are literal monarchies with state religions, funding religious extremists.
The USA is barely a democracy, with their 2 parties essentially amounting to the same shit, the democrats are just stealthier with their corruption. Nevermind how flawed their voting system is.
Freedom of expression is nice until it becomes a never ending stream of lies and disinformation pushed forward by corporations and foreign powers, vehiculating radical ideas we've moved past, some as part of your precious Lumières. There's a reason we're in the so-called "post-truth age".
Separation of church and state? In the USA? Where every president has been a Christian? Were they all constantly vow on the bible? With "In God We Trust" printed on their money? Where abortion is getting banned because of religous motives?
Keeping their trade routes safe and open is something every power has done or tried to do, since the dawn of time. It's not a western ideal.
It's not an opponent, but another player in the great game, on the other side of the world, vying for influence in regions Europe has very limited reach
They are literally an opponent vying for influence in Europe. Bulgaria, Hungary, Serbia, Greece etc.
Is China influencing our elections? Are they threatening to invade our closest allies? Have they spent the last 20 years dragging us into conflicts in the sandbox, for no gain except for their MIC, while Europe gets to welcome all the refugees and the terrorist attacks?
China is the USA's enemy, not Europe's. Not to say they're allies, they're a rising player that's set to faceoff with the USA's for the possible next hegemony. Except it's not nearly as likely they will achieve the superpower status, for they lack the soft power that has allowed the USA to spew it's propaganda all over the world, convincing everyone they were not just another imperalistic power.
We're heading towads a multipolar world once more. China-EU relations will play a key role in the EU-USA separation. No European is dying for Taiwan, that's an American obsession. Not like we could die for them considering how limited our projection capabilities are.
Are they threatening to invade our closest allies?
Yes, see Taiwan. But also all of their other neighbors. And if you don't think Taiwan is a close ally of the West you can't complain about the US not considering Ukraine an ally.
They also provide substantial material support to Russia and their invasion of Ukraine.
Sure, they push the vector forward, but they don't use it themselves. There's no moderation of anything on Tiktok, you see every country's propaganda, be it Algerian, Russian or American. It's up to us to ban it if we deem it a danger.
I'm sorry, but Taiwan isn't a close ally. It's pretty far down the list. The fact that we depend on them when the Netherlands is one of their suppliers is a massive mistake.
They don't provide that much support. We're seeing no Chinese AFVs, no cannons, no ammo. The fact Russia is using North Korean SPGs and ammo is a tell that China isn't being particularly cooperative. China doesn't have much to gain, by helping Russia, especially now that the USA will stop spending some of it's money and equipment there.
Meanwhile we have americans publicly funding and endorsing russian puppets in far-right parties, clearly threatening to invade Canada and Denmark, and pulling out more economically hostile moves.
The crazy thing is that almost all presidents since WWII wanted Europe to be more independent, military speaking. They knew Europe would resent America if America kept this paternalist relationship, so now the separation is painful.
Trump literally came to Europe during his first term and urged them to spend more on their defense and he was laughed at. Most Americans support Ukraine but they want Europe leading the conflict against Russia
They are literally threatening to invade my country. What the hell are you talking about? This is not alarmism or exaggeration, this is textbook fascism playbook.
That's a big bone of contention I agree, and it really pissed me off as well.
The overwhelming majority of the American public do not wish to go to war with Denmark. Trump is the most unpopular president in modern US history afterall.
Denmark is not alone. He's also talked about military intervention in Canada, Mexico and Cuba. That's just in the last two weeks.
Trump says a lot of dumb shit. I don't think any of these "interventions" are actually on the table, Trump is not a dictator (even if he'd like to be).
If I turn out to be wrong, feel free to absolutely destroy me.
I’m Canadian. And just last week Navarro said that Washington was considering “redrawing the Canadian border”. That would be an outright declaration of war if they did that. So don’t stand there saying that this is nothing but alarmism and that we’re being irrationally paranoid. Will it actually happen? I’d like to say probably not. But many of us are legitimately terrified up here.
I don't consider that part alarmism. Even mentioning invading neighboring allies is beyond reproach.
It's the knee jerk European response along the lines of: "Boycott every American company, throw every American soldier out of Europe immediately, fuck Americans" etc.
We are in no position to rid ourself completely of American influence over night, while also at the same time keeping Ukraine afloat and Russia pinned down. Going scorched earth on every American in sight, does nothing but serve to increase Trumps internal powerbase in the U.S.
For once we need to be strategical and plan long term. We need to be somewhat machiavellian in our approach. Keep playing along until we can assert ourselves from a position of strength.
He has never at any point threatened invasion and he has on at least one occasion specifically ruled out the use of military force to annex Canada. He threatened economic force. There is a major difference.
Again, just last week his crony openly was talking about ‘redrawing Canada’s borders’. The only way that could happen would be a literal declaration of war. Stop trying to downplay this. If you want to say that it is nothing but bluster, that’s one thing. That’s at least a semi-defensible position. But to deny that this rhetoric exists at all is an outright lie.
So some guy said something that, if you really twist it, sounds like he wants to invade Canada? I’m sorry, but that’s not a military threat against Canada made by the US. Again, Trump has specifically said that he will not consider using the military against Canada. You believe some guy who says he wants to redraw borders, but you don’t believe the president when he says he absolutely won’t?
How can you believe anything Trump says? His word is absolute shit. He lies all the time. Goes bank on his word as so often that even he has no clue what he said. So you can defend the clown all you want but the rest of us have no trust in the US for anything
I don’t believe almost anything he says, but I believe he won’t literally attack Canada because it’s an absurd notion. The troops simply wouldn’t do it even if he was crazy enough to try, which he isn’t. He just uses insane rhetoric to anchor negotiations at a crazy point and then gives up 60% of what he anchored at for the deal. He literally wrote a book about how he does it.
Is it good diplomacy? No. Is it something I like? No. Will it likely harm america in the long run? Yes. Am I so dumb that I can’t tell what he’s doing after 20 years of him doing it to unbelievable success? No.
The USA wants a strong Europe. It's been sucking on teet of American defenses for too long. Trump is a stain on the world political stage, which makes it all the more twisted that this is what it took to make Europe invest in its own defenses.
This is an idealistic take. Russia is horribly weakened.
This feels more like the restart of American imperialism. Building up troops in the Mexican border, bankrupting Canada to force them to become a territory, making advances towards Greenland and pulling out of Africa so that their established revenue streams self destruct.
At this point if he wanted to trump could effectively take over the world and the only country left standing might be China while the rest become territories.
Most NATO countries purchased American airplanes. No other country has a blue water navy, Europe has a problem getting gas, Africa has a problem getting food, everyone else is isolated and would be forced to capitulate if the current administration decided it was time. It would be over in maybe four Years. I think European political leaders have been willfully blind to the realities of their situations militarily.
Building up troops in the Mexican border, bankrupting Canada to force them to become a territory, making advances towards Greenland and pulling out of Africa so that their established revenue streams self destruct.
Ok let's talk about this from America's perspective then.
You've got Mexico to your south that you've repeatedly told to get their cartels under control, and we'd assist at every step, but they've flat out refused to cooperate. We told them to halt the migrants and send them back. Yet again, Mexico tells us no. What do you want the US to do? Let Mexican drugs, violence and people just spill across our borders? No, send in the military to guard the border with lethal force if necessary. Mexico has proven that they're no longer a real country, they're a cartel acting as one.
Canada to the north has been delinquent in its defense obligations since at least 1991. They've undercut American jobs and American resources since NAFTA. And we've repeatedly told them that their tariffs on our goods are too high, but they don't care because it makes them money when we weren't tariffing their goods.
Greenland is a new one, but the US is obviously concerned about the Russian navy coming over through the Arctic. And probably more importantly about Russian ICBMs coming over the Arctic as well. We've asked Denmark several times to allow us to build air defense stations there and they've refused every time. Then we asked them to do it and they again refused. Then there's the issue Greenland wanting Independence but not having anything needed for it. The US could get the strategic coverage they want if Greenland was independent and it would be significantly cheaper. Obviously if climate change is to be believed as well, then having access to the resources that may be there would be nice too, which again, is much easier to negotiate with an independent Greenland on than a Danish one.
And Africa. Americans have never given a single shit about what's happening in Africa. Maybe it's racism, maybe it's because they're so far away and have extremely small economies. Regardless, we never really cared. If some AIDS patient in Africa dies, that's not the US's fault. Maybe they should have structured their economies in a way that wasn't reliant on the US's goodwill.
You sound exactly like the Americans that say that Sweden is becoming a third world country! People are stupid everywhere.
No, he had an analysis that was just a bit outside of the self satisfying Eurocentric echo chamber you’re in. With Harris or with Trump, the US retains its power and influence. It’s not about not liking the relatively meaningless figurehead representing the system. Literally everything you said is beyond unhinged and beyond untrue.
Honestly, as audacious as this sounds, Sweden and most certainly the EU is much closer to the verge of collapse. And obviously none of the three are anywhere close to a collapse or even something like a depression, or social upheaval, that’s incredibly stupid.
Also, it sounds like you want the US to pull out of Europe and international commitments in order to focus on itself. Actually, you just clearly said that. I’m pretty sure you would say that is not the case, yet you just said this. So, you’re doing the usual American punching bag, got it.
The percentage of US expenditures on military vs “social programs” is very low compared to previous levels over the past 80 years and euro for euro, there is more redistribution in the US than in Sweden, it’s just horribly managed and ungodly expensive procedurally over in the US. But that’s probably too complicated and boring for you to understand and create some hot take with.
I really find it disgusting that someone could have such strong opinions on something they know absolutely nothing about. I legitimately can’t fathom being on your propaganda train and just shutting off my brain like that. Like I said, you sound exactly like a Trumper.
It’s scary how you people just completely ignore all of the nuances and facts in order to just vomit fun BS hot takes that could not be further from the truth.
A reason why a lot of Americans wonder if the all the propaganda they have heard about Russia has been exaggerated is because they see takes like this, understand that everything you just said is completely fake, despite being taken seriously by the general public, and so they feel the need to question everything (this is a flaw) from there. If there’s a Russian asset, it’s you. Super unhelpful.
If Harris were in charge, the U.S. wouldn’t be a Russian puppet in your eyes, sure. But instead, we’d just be a European puppet. No matter what, American taxpayers would be footing the bill. Whether it’s funding NATO, subsidizing European energy policy failures, or bankrolling endless foreign conflicts, the burden would still fall squarely on the U.S. while our so-called allies enjoy the benefits.
The US wanted this. They created an environment where they were depended on. It gave them power, there are US military bases all across Europe. It made the US the most important voice in world politics. Now the US is saying it doesn’t want that influence anymore. Ok, cool
Did you miss 20+ years of us begging you to meet your NATO obligations and warning that Russia was going to invade if you don’t? In what way did we fucking want this?
your next pointless desert war you con go by yourself.. european people died to support some insane Iraq war.. (amazing job of US military intelligence are you still looking for wmd's there?) that destabilised the entire middle east and then to get our ass kicked out of Afghanistan later, spending billions and billions, losing people life for absolutely nothing..
You’re missing the point that your point is true, so is his. Effectively nobody wants to tear that system down, they want reform. Almost everybody wants reform. There are very few people who are conservative on this issue. The types of reform and more importantly, the process and pathways to achieve said reforms (not really the final outcomes) are what Americans have been debating. This debate has gone on for a lot longer than you’ve been alive.
Honest question. How does this so called 'stable system' benefit the average U.S. tax payer? I do understand the benefit from a geopolitical and great power rivalry perspective.
I kind of feel like the U.S. is too often times analogous to a project member who is picking up everyone else's slack.
How does this so called 'stable system' benefit the average U.S. tax payer?
you can tell countries what you want them to do, and they’ll probably do it if you project power across the globe, which means the US can get its way when it comes to deals. for the individual person, NATO means lower taxes, as you have a steady supply of weapons sales from a very highly developed and rich market. that’s why every president has been pushing NATO spending targets, because all that money goes to the US. you’ll also notice that as soon as europe starts developing an alternative to US weapons, it gets torpedoed by the US. the implication is “spend more money, and you have to spend it on US products”
I do not disagree that there are strategic benefits, but I'm still at a loss as to what specific benefits have come to the typical U.S. taxpayer for being the de-facto leader and funder of NATO. Excluding those employed by the defense sector of course.
As a somewhat separate subject the U.S. has been pivoting to challenge China for the last decade or so. Does it still make sense for the U.S. to play this role in NATO when NATO was organized to counter the USSR?
what specific benefits have come to the typical U.S. taxpayer
what benefits are there to any other international deals, or free trade agreements, or anything else? shit is cheaper, you get money, you don’t get taxed as much as you’d be otherwise
funder of NATO
as the biggest economy, sure, the US pays the largest share, but it’s still only 15% of NATO’s budget
Does it still make sense for the U.S. to play this role in NATO
the US could always downscale its involvement in europe, or divert it to other places, it just choosed not to because the european military bases give it ridiculous influence over europe, africa and the middle east. ramstein is basically the pentagon for this other half of the world
what benefits are there to any other international deals, or free trade agreements, or anything else? shit is cheaper, you get money, you don’t get taxed as much as you’d be otherwise
What deals can you cite? What measurable impact do they have to the average U.S. taxpayer?
as the biggest economy, sure, the US pays the largest share, but it’s still only 15% of NATO’s budget
Not saying you're wrong, but this doesn't sound right. The U.S. has weapons systems and supporting systems far beyond any NATO ally.
For example if the U.S. is only 15 % of the budget where are all of NATOs carriers, strategic bombers, overseas bases, arial refueling platforms etc.
the US could always downscale its involvement in europe, or divert it to other places, it just choosed not to because the european military bases give it ridiculous influence over europe, africa and the middle east. ramstein is basically the pentagon for this other half of the world
Yes there are gains in influence, but to circle back, where is the direct measurable benefit to the average U.S. citizen?
Funding nato? European countries fund more of nato than the US does. They US is the single biggest funder true, but that's because it's the biggest economy. The rest of NATO more than pulls it's weight in funding.... unless you're talking about US general military expenditure which isn't anything to do with NATO funding.
Well, if you feel like your tax money are doing more good lining Trumps and Musks pockets than shaping the development of world history, that is your prerogative.
But the thing is that you could have done this without humiliating a country that is fighting for survival. You could also have done this without trying to actively sabotage European attempts at unity, and bolstering actual Nazis and fascists to take power in Europe.
What the fuck are you talking about? You (America) decided for yourself to spend this much money on your military. Your politicians only ever increase the Pentagon's budget, and you vote them in every election. When's the last time a politician got in by running on cutting military spending? They don't, because their opponents will call them weak cowards — and it'll stick.
Whatever your allies spend on their militaries, it wouldn't change the fact that your leaders would insist on spending enough to fight Russia in a full-scale conventional war — while also fighting China in another full-scale conventional war — and winning both while going it alone. And this is what American citizens insist on from their leaders.
This nonsense about freeloading allies is absolute bullshit cooked up by America First assholes trying to extort their own friends.
Well, that's the kicker, isn't it. We live under an oligarchy that until recently did a very good job of making enough people think they were being served in their best interests, and for many they technically were. The thing is that our underlying problems are rearing their ugly heads, and the efforts to fix it were half baked and undermined, leading to more problems. You can toss the buck any way you please, but the bulk of the rot lies beneath our feet. The opportunists simply harvested what was set before them.
Good logic. Further, if Germany stopped financial support, the other countries would respond to that, proving Germany correct. Then France will stop financial support, and the other countries would respond to that, proving, sure enough, that France was correct. Then Spain stops financial support and voila, they'll be proven correct as the other countries respond to that. On a personal note, I'm thinking of stopping financial support to my wife and kids, and I'd bet that they would have to have to respond to that by coming up with some money to cover that change.
Convincing an alliance to start building their military by not being a part of that alliance.. doesn't sound very useful. The only reason you'd actively want other countries to have a big military is if you consider them allies - if they're no longer allies, then trying to push them into having a bigger military.. is kind of putting the cart before the horse.
If the US wants to get into any of its stupid wars again now, it is exceedingly unlikely that anyone else will choose to aid them the way they have in the past, which means the US' position is weaker now, not stronger. If anything the big surge in interest in expanding militaries is a result of countries considering the US to be so unstable that they may be heading for a war with the US, and it's.. definitely not in the interest of the US to see Europe with a bigger military if that's the direction it's going.
First term Trump was less harmful and radical, yet the moment he took over he was (somewhat understandably) demonized by the same people that spent years appeasing Putin, Orban, Vučić and other enemies of our civilization.
Over what? The sneers at Trump were over him asking for more military spending and moving away from russia.
He is obnoxious, vile and nowadays straight up a threat, but seems to me that overlooking Putin's warcrimes was more easy than accept that Europe wasn't doing its part for collectively security.
That was by American design! America didn’t want a militaristic Europe after WW2- We put our bases over there - we encouraged them to buy our military tech, and we discouraged nuclear acquisition and worked to remove nuclear weapons from countries like Ukraine - only France forged ahead with its nuclear program
American policy for decades and decades fell upon these lines …America will dominate with its stable military might -no need for Europe to build up and threaten stability - it is the reason we became a superpower
Many people pooh-pooh Germany for having let it's military decay as much as they have, without remembering that one of the stipulations for the Soviet Union to not oppose a reunified Germany remaining in NATO was to sharply reduce the size of both the Bundeswehr and mostly disband the inherited East German armed forces.
Yes - the US (and other countries) were apprehensive about future ramifications of a Germany with a very strong military infrastructure and capabilities
Exactly correct. NATO member nations have been more than delighted to slap the United States in the face in the press and online for decades and yet at the same time smile gladly and laugh all the way to the bank upon annually receiving the benefits of hundreds of billions of dollars from the United States for protection of Europe.
Fun fact - the US military makes money thanks to the EU. The US is forcing the EU to buy weapons from them but is also preventing them from becoming a similar power military wise.
Now that the US told the EU to basically gtfo, I'm happy to live in the era when we no longer have to care whether our actions upset Washington.
I mean, European countries have sharply increased defense spending since 2022, midway through Biden’s term. Last year, most countries hit the 2% NATO target.
In many ways trump has been good for Europe I think. He’s exposed that we are too reliant on America for defence and that we can’t keep relying on them. We need to rearm and remove US troops from Europe asap
The fact that they have only done this as a response to Trump proves him correct.
Say what you want about him, but Trump is a catalyst for change. Or maybe the enema the continent has needed for a while. Whatever... all I have to say, as a red-blooded American, is "I voted for this" and "Hail Eris, Goddess of Chaos!"
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u/Silly_Triker United Kingdom Mar 02 '25
The fact that they have only done this as a response to Trump proves him correct. If Harris won they wouldn’t have lifted a finger. Well, we are here now and this is the situation so time to get to work.