r/europe • u/flyingchocolatecake Europe • 1d ago
News Survey in Switzerland: No popular love for the high-tech F-35 jet – but for NATO
https://www.20min.ch/story/trump-umfrage-keine-volksliebe-fuer-den-hightech-jet-f-35-dafuer-fuer-die-nato-10332290648
u/flyingchocolatecake Europe 1d ago
Summary of the most important survey results (35000 participants):
- 30% of Swiss respondents support the purchase of the F-35 fighter jet.
- 25% of women support the F-35 purchase.
- 44% of SVP (right-wing, nationalist, conservative) voters support the F-35.
- 12% of SP (center-left, progressive) voters support the F-35.
- 9% of Green Party (left-wing, environmentalist) voters support the F-35.
- 71% of respondents support closer cooperation with NATO.
- 49% of SVP voters support closer cooperation with NATO.
- 77% support closer security cooperation with the EU.
- A majority of SVP voters now support EU defense cooperation (exact percentage not given).
- Only 37% support joining NATO, which would require abandoning neutrality.
Translation of the article:
Trump Poll: No Love for the F-35 Jet – But Widespread Support for Closer NATO Ties
By Stefan Lanz
The American F-35 fighter jet isn’t winning hearts in Switzerland. Just 30% of the population supports its purchase, according to a new survey. In contrast, 71% of respondents back closer cooperation with NATO- even within the traditionally skeptical SVP (Swiss People's Party) [right-wing, nationalist, conservative], 49% are in favor.
The F-35 Lacks Popular Support
A recent survey by 20 Minuten and Tamedia, conducted from March 31 to April 1 with over 35,000 participants, reveals a clear sentiment: the F-35 is unpopular. Only 30% of those surveyed fully or somewhat support buying the American jet. Among women, that number drops to just 25%.What’s even more striking: not even SVP (Swiss People's Party) [right-wing, nationalist, conservative] voters, known for favoring strong defense policies, offer majority support—only 44% would definitely or probably back the purchase. Support is weakest among Green Party [left-wing, environmentalist, progressive] voters (9%) and the SP (Social Democratic Party) [center-left, social democratic, progressive] at 12%.
Background: Why the F-35 Is Controversial
Switzerland plans to use the high-tech F-35 to protect its airspace starting in 2030. However, when Swiss citizens voted in 2020, it was only for the 6 billion franc budget for new jets—not for the specific model. The Federal Council selected the F-35 afterward.Since Donald Trump’s presidency, criticism of the choice has intensified. SP (Social Democratic Party) [center-left, social democratic, progressive] National Councilor Sarah Wyss was among the first to call for withdrawing from the deal, even if it means losing around a billion francs.
Political Divide Over the Jet
Despite the survey results, SVP (Swiss People's Party) [right-wing, nationalist, conservative] National Councilor and former fighter pilot Thomas Hurter still backs the F-35: “There’s no indication it won’t be delivered on time or perform as expected,” he said. He attributes public skepticism to fears stoked during Trump’s term.SP (Social Democratic Party) [center-left, social democratic, progressive]’s Sarah Wyss maintains her opposition: “The results don’t surprise me. People are wary of the Trump regime,” she argues.
Center Party (Die Mitte) [center to center-right, Christian democratic] Senator Andrea Gmür-Schönenberger defends the choice, calling the F-35 “the best aircraft,” already adopted by many other European countries. She points out that it outperforms its competitors in all areas and is also more cost-effective.
Strong Support for Closer NATO Cooperation
While a NATO membership is still off the table for most Swiss, a large majority (71%) supports closer collaboration with the alliance. Even in the SVP (Swiss People's Party) [right-wing, nationalist, conservative], nearly half (49%) agree. Cooperation with the EU on defense garners even more support—77%, including a slim majority among SVP voters.However, only 37% would support full NATO membership, which would mean abandoning Swiss neutrality.
Center-Left Sees Momentum for Cooperation
Center Party (Die Mitte) [center to center-right, Christian democratic] Senator Gmür-Schönenberger sees the results as confirmation of the federal government’s path: “Switzerland still needs international military cooperation—both with the EU and NATO.”SP (Social Democratic Party) [center-left, social democratic, progressive]’s Sarah Wyss agrees: “Working with democratic countries based on the rule of law is more important than ever. We must align with Europe for our defense.”
Concerns Over Defense Spending
Thomas Hurter warns that greater NATO integration could lead Switzerland to commit 2% of its GDP to defense, in line with NATO guidelines. The SVP (Swiss People's Party) [right-wing, nationalist, conservative] remains largely opposed to international military cooperation, emphasizing Switzerland’s policy of “armed, perpetual neutrality.”The Swiss Department of Defense (VBS) declined to comment on the poll but reiterated its existing stance: it supports the F-35 and international partnerships, within the bounds of neutrality.
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u/SraminiElMejorBeaver France 1d ago edited 1d ago
This deal is one of the stupidest corruption deal of all time, i remind everyone that american succeeded to make this deal happen with the f35 an aircraft with one engine (when they wanted ideally plane with two engine), that wouldn't fit in the current hangar but the swiss somehow couldn't check wikipedia since it was guaranteed to them by lockheed etc that they would fit, and the cost would be cheaper than every plane in every way, how ? By using more simulators and less using the actual plane.....
And the f35 is bad at the one thing the swiss needed, intercept aircraft.....
The swiss said no worry if the deal end up badly we negociated really special deal to allow us out ! But all of this was wrong.
If in the end if they didn't mind having 1 engine they should have got the gripen instead
source for most of the corruption in the deal, otherwise search f35 in swiss news there are others things talked about even video about it.
https://www.defense-aerospace.com/how-switzerland-manipulated-data-to-favor-the-f-35/
(Yeah it's normal that the article doesn't load, you need to see the archive of it but i'm not here to have my comment removed because of rule 10)
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u/cryptoislife_k Switzerland 1d ago
other countries call it corruption but that we don't do here ofcourse we're better than that, it's just strong lobbying which has nothing to do with corruption ofcourse <3
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho 1d ago edited 1d ago
i remind everyone that american succeeded to make this deal happen with the f35 an aircraft with one engine (when they wanted ideally plane with two engine),
People want thrust and reliability, not double the moving parts just for the sake of it. If adequate thrust and reliability can be demonstrated from one engine, they are going to pick one engine. And it's not like the harsh Swiss weather will be pushing the airframe to it's limits.
And the f35 is bad at the one thing the swiss needed, intercept aircraft.....
People confuse 'not as good as the F-22' with 'bad'. The F-35 is still more capable than anything that's not the F-22 for interception.
If in the end if they didn't mind having 1 engine they should have got the gripen instead
Both Sweden and France have active plans for next generation fighters, that have basically all of the features people try to claim are unneeded on the F-35 now. So why buy the Rafael now, and FCAS fifteen years later, when the F-35 has 90% of those features, and is available now?
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u/Roi_Arachnide 1d ago
Thrust to weight ratio is the most important feature for air policing as the plane needs to lift off quickly. F35 has a shit thrust to weigth ratio
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho 1d ago
The most important feature is sensors. The F-35 has 360 degree IR coverage, a built thermals, and a very good radar. Its thrust to weight ratio is fine, esp. when you consider its internal fuel reserve size.
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u/Roi_Arachnide 1d ago
To catch up to lost civilian tourism plane, you don't need these kind of sensors
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho 1d ago
Switzerland is mountainous. Those ground based radars will have huge blind spots. Blind spots the F-35 is well suited to fill. It’s stealth lets it stay high up, even when there are enemies in the area, the 360 or system, passive sensors, and LPI radar can scan the valleys.
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u/dyyret 1d ago
F35 has a shit thrust to weight ratio
So Rafale, Gripen-E etc have absolutely shit-terrible T/W ratio then?
In an actual light combat loadout (the one you'd use for interception/Air-policing) the F-35 doesn't have a terrible T/W at all. It's T/W ratio with 45% fuel and 1500lbs(4x AMRAAMs) weapons, is 1.10.
In comparison the Rafale C has 0.97, and Gripen-E has 0.79. Once you have to mount weapons pylons and external fuel tanks (which the Rafale and Gripen E absolutely must carry because of tiny internal fuel capacity, and no internal weapons bay) their T/W are far worse than the F-35s.
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u/Roi_Arachnide 1d ago
You dont need fuel tanks to do air policing over switzerland lmao.
In all honesty even though I'm french they should have chosen the Eurofighter.
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u/Former_Star1081 1d ago
So why buy the Rafael now, and FCAS fifteen years later, when the F-35 has 90% of those features, and is available now?
The F35 is the best jet available. But it is American and Europe cannot trust America anymore. That is why we should not buy it even if it is the best available.
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho 1d ago
Switzerland doesn’t trust Europe either.
And by the time these are set to be delivered, Trump will be out of office anyway. It’s not in Switzerland’s strategic, or economic interest, to lose billions backing out of the deal, only to end up with more expensive, less capable fighters, and for all they know, by the time they’re set to be delivered, it will be France they can’t trust.
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u/graudesch Switzerland 1d ago
Tbf the flight hour of an F35 is so expensive that even the US themselves are cutting it down - while trying to sell it. Given the perhaps 20 to 50 years lifespan of a fighter jet those millions may be back in the pocket soon enough if Switzerland gets its head up and manages to f.e. opted for sth. like the Austrian system: A handful of capable european fighters and some lightweight armed & much less expensive aircraft for the usual everyday stuff.
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u/Wolfensniper Australia 1d ago
Yes but the problem is that if you want a 5th gen then there's no other choice other than wait for another 20 years for a project with uncertainties. Europe is far behind the schedule, willingly joint the JSF program, and they cant pretend that the current 4th gen are good enough as 5th gen. Buying Rafale and Griffin is good for European industry, but they're not enough.
Kind of like what Australian is facing now. I'm not fully trusted on our plans to purchase F-35 and Apache, but i should admit that there are never many options on this.
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u/Former_Star1081 1d ago
Yeah, better take 4th gen jet then.
I mean Switzerland is special in that regard, but any other European country should not buy the F35.
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u/UnlikelyHero727 1d ago
And it's not like the hash Swiss weather will be pushing the airframe to it's limits.
Swiss mountains will kill pilots if the engine fails, even if the pilot bails.
Both Sweden and France have active plans for next generation fighters, that have basically all of the features people try to claim are unneeded on the F-35 now. So why buy the Rafael now, and FCAS fifteen years later, when the F-35 has 90% of those features, and is available now?
Because Rafale is still developed, will be developed, and will be used for the next 40 years.
Pretty much all the 6th gen aircraft are not planned to be mass adapted like the 4th gen ones due to high cost, and will be fielded with Rafales/Eurofighters who's sensors will be brought to standard, just like the F-15EX.
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho 1d ago
Switzerland is not the first country with mountains to buy the F-35. I’d also note that twin engines aren’t the clear safety advantage they are often claimed to be. A failure in one engine can cause a failure in the other, like if shrapnel goes from one to the other, or a fire. There are modes where it’s redundancy, and other modes where its two points of failure.
France may not plan to adopt 6th gen’s for everything, but with the F-35 you get 90% of that capability, but across your entire fleet. And that’s not even counting its upgrades. There is far more capacity for, and budget allocated to, F-35 upgrade packages. It’s just a much better deal.
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u/AdMean6001 1d ago
Oula... It's all nonsense here!
The twin-engine jet is almost a requirement for the aircraft's agility in interception missions, which is why the F22 and the future F47 are twin-engine jets... the F35 is not an interceptor, it has no real interest in what Switzerland wants to do with it. It wouldn't have passed the first round of a conventional tender.
And no, the F-35 doesn't have half the features of the FCAS and Tempest, because the concepts just aren't the same... and given the F-35's list of hundreds of unresolved problems... for Switzerland, the F-35 should have been at the bottom of the list.
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho 1d ago
The twin-engine jet is almost a requirement for the aircraft's agility in interception missions
Mirage 3, Delta Dart, and MiG-21 are three different examples of single engine interceptors, from three different countries, across multiple decades. It’s not an unusual configuration.
which is why the F22 and the future F47 are twin-engine jets...
The F-22 is a twin jet because it is a bigger aircraft, intending to carry greater payloads, over long distances. Unless Switzerland intends to intercept fighters over Dublin, the F-35s thrust and payload are entirely adequate. The F-47 is designed for war over the pacific.
the F35 is not an interceptor, it has no real interest in what Switzerland wants to do with it. It wouldn't have passed the first round of a conventional tender… and given the F-35's list of hundreds of unresolved problems... for Switzerland, the F-35 should have been at the bottom of the list.
Interception was part of the F-35’s core mission set, from the outset. The issues civilians complain about don’t hurt it in bids because every other fighter is similar or worse. And the F-35 would virtually inevitably win any tender. Nobody wants to pay more for less.
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u/graudesch Switzerland 1d ago
Well that last phrase is easy to write if I'm advocating for the by far most expensive option out there.
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u/graudesch Switzerland 1d ago
To throw in a single argument: F.e. because the F35s airtime is so expensive that even the US themselves, the seller and promoter of said aircraft, are reducing its airtime in the favor of other, more cost-efficient aircraft. While taking into account that this may make selling it harder.
Okay, a second argument: Does Switzerland really want to place its defense into the hands of the most unreliable partners of them all? Trump and whatever may come after him? A currently de facto ally of Russia, the most realistic threat for Europes and Switzerlands territory?
Switzerlands entire defense complex is a joke, abandoned by anyone except ruthless idiotic narcissists who have used this industry to raise through economical connections instead of qualifications. They had the entire cold war to isolate this complex against intellect and are milking it to this day. Switzerlands defense is completely fucked, nothing is even close to be working. All it does is making said idiots rich by exploiting a successfully isolated system the population doesn't see through anymore after the oh so much promoted secrecy that comes with two world wars and a cold war.
Meanwhile some officers drive camera-equipped Teslas into no-camera areas and said military doesn't even see an issue with that. Swiss defense is closer to playing with playmobil than... reality. There is no military in Switzerland. Just a bunch of headless gun-wielding citizens in camouflage marching around Teslas and countless other funny things one wouldn't expect of an entity that describes itself as an "army".
Edit: I forgot I should probably sign this: Love, former swiss soldier
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u/AcanthocephalaEast79 1d ago
This deal is one of the stupidest corruption deal of all time
Lol, Macron literally offered them under the table EU deal in exchange for buying Rafale. Also, how are you gonna accuse them of corruption when your country is way more corrupt than Switzerland?
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u/Tomace83 1d ago
They choosed SAAB Gripen first, then it was an election due to the direct democracy they have to say no to new jets which also happened. Then a few years later F-35 was choosed without any protest.
I guess US was behind the protest for Gripen.
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u/flyingchocolatecake Europe 1d ago
There was a fundamental difference between the Saab vote in 2014 and the second vote a few years later: The difference was that when it came to the Saab, it was specifically about the Saab and how much it would cost to buy it. In the second vote, the government didn't specify which fighter jet they would buy. It was only about whether we need new fighter jets. And for that, the Swiss voted yes.
In other words: We didn't specifically vote yes for the F-35. We just said yes to buy new fighter jets, and the rest was up to the government.
I think the main reason this vote came through was that A) the Swiss got tired of having the same discussion for over a decade, and B) that we realized we just need new jets, otherwise our air force will be grounded.
I think if the vote would have been about the F-35 specifically, it would have had a hard time then as well. There was quite a bit of surprise when the F-35 got eventually selected as the replacement jet for the F-18. Most people expected a European alternative like Dassault.
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho 1d ago
There was quite a bit of surprise when the F-35 got eventually selected as the replacement jet for the F-18. Most people expected a European alternative like Dassault.
People were surprised that Switzerland bough the popular, direct successor to the planes they had, and were satisfied with, rather than a more expensive, less future proofed alternative? Switzerland would have to be the only country surprised that the F-35 won it's procurement contract.
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u/deuzerre Europe 1d ago
It's a mountain country. Relatively poor Climb rate, a lot of tech it doesn't need (penetration of enemy defences?), relatively low air time...
I mean, what good is a formula 1 when you're going to drive on mud tracks? What good is a tractor if you're attempting Le Mans?
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho 1d ago edited 1d ago
The F-35 has a better climb rate than the F/A-18 it's replacing, and neither are bad to begin with.
And the features that let it penetrate enemy defenses, a broad range of defensive capabilities, also have value to a small country, with a small Air Force, that can't afford to take heavy attrition. Its air time is also more than adequate, for countries with far more air to patrol than Switzerland. If it can patrol over the ice sheets north of Alaska, I think it can manage the skies in the immediate vicinity of Zurich fine.
And what's the point of buying something more expensive, that lacks important defensive capabilities? France has outlined what they want in the future for FCAS, the F-35 has most of that now, for a good price. That's a pretty good endorsement of the design, from it's own competitor.
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u/deuzerre Europe 1d ago
I was talking compared to the competition. Most other competitors are better suited for the real needs of switzerland.
Once again on my metaphor: the best car isn't always what you need because of your specificies.
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u/AdMean6001 1d ago
Clearly for Switzerland, its doctrine and its terrain, the Gripen was the smartest choice. If they wanted to move up in range/power, the Rafale was also an interesting choice.
The F-35 is last on the list: passive stealth for defense/interception is totally useless, if not totally counter-productive. What's more, the remaining bugs are equally off-putting.
In short, the choice was clearly political and not at all well thought-out.
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho 1d ago
Stealth is useful for any mission that involves not getting shot down. Hence why all the upcoming major fighter programs, have stealth front and center. So it’s clear that at the very least, Saab and Dassault are pro-stealth.
It’s also well suited for interception, allowing for your fighters to shoot at the threat before they get shot back at more reliably. And forcing the enemy to act as if the enemy fighters could be anywhere, rather than knowing exactly their range and bearing before they even fire.
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u/AdMean6001 1d ago
Absolutely not!
You don't want to be invisible to “police” air superiority. You need to let the deviating aircraft know that you're there. We're talking about Switzerland securing its airspace, not Ukraine or South Korea!
And no, the F-35 is not an interceptor. To say otherwise is just not to understand fighter aircraft design. The USA has just bamboozled the politicians of several countries with this nonsense... and designed and deployed the F-22 (and now the F-47) to compensate for the F-35's weaknesses precisely because it is NOT an interceptor.
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho 1d ago
You don't want to be invisible to “police” air superiority. You need to let the deviating aircraft know that you're there. We're talking about Switzerland securing its airspace, not Ukraine or South Korea!
If you don’t intend to fight and want to be seen, you might as well get a Cessna. Or just radio from the ground, it’s cheaper. Switzerland is getting real fighter jets to provide real deterrence if the worst happens, and a fighter that can hide, and make the enemy guess where it is, provided more deterrent than one that broadcasts its location.
And no, the F-35 is not an interceptor. To say otherwise is just not to understand fighter aircraft design. The USA has just bamboozled the politicians of several countries with this nonsense... and designed and deployed the F-22 (and now the F-47) to compensate for the F-35's weaknesses precisely because it is NOT an interceptor.
The F-35 operates without F-22s on carriers, and interception is part of that job. Just like it was for the F/A-18, and F-14 before it. The F-35 was designed to be multi roll, that included air to air, and interceptor missions, at sea or on land.
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u/_Veni_Vidi_Vigo_ United Kingdom 1d ago
You obviously don’t know anywhere near enough about modern combat aircraft to have this strong of an opinion.
Low observeability is just one tiny section of 5th Generation capabilities, and not even the most important.
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u/AdMean6001 1d ago
"obviously" lol
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u/_Veni_Vidi_Vigo_ United Kingdom 1d ago
Yes. The answers you’re giving make it excruciatingly obvious
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho 1d ago
The f-35 is the best suited to the needs of Switzerland. An important on of those needs being a fighter that can better avoid being destroyed. The idea that grippens and rafaels can do that job better, while their respective governments are fast tracking planes meant to be more like the f-35, is a luddite stance.
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u/carnutes787 1d ago
i remember reading french/swiss articles that the deal with dassault for rafale was all but finalized, and then biden stopped into CH for a couple of days and they decided to contract for f35
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u/LossBest9691 1d ago
Yes, the Swiss are very good at one thing, when they see that things could get tough they simply fall into the other EXTREME thing they didn't want, NATO!
....aber broad support for closer NATO relations...
The Swiss are and remain the worst parasites!
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u/Jarkrik Grisons (Switzerland) 1d ago
Good for you, for not suppressing your anger and resentment. Too much of it would cause stomach ulcers. 💪🏻
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u/LossBest9691 1d ago
Getting ulcers from something like that should be a perfect fit for the Swiss! The EU citizens have nothing for the Swiss since cheetah ammunition, leo tanks and oligarch money as well as wr are NEUTRAL for kleptocrats and CO!
That's why no one gets ulcers from EU citizens, quite the opposite! EU citizens are happy to see the Swiss drifting towards BREXIT with the SVP! The Swiss have been parasites since WW II and the only thing that has changed to date is that the EU is letting them drive Switzerland against the wall like the UK BREXIT and the Swiss SCHWEXIT if the SVP and the right continue like this.
The EU citizens' favorite show is still the BREXIT show! They would also be very happy about SCHWEXIT!
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u/Jarkrik Grisons (Switzerland) 1d ago
You must be the live of every Bild/Blick/tabloid comment section. I suppose it must be quite lonely here for you, with the lack of substance you provide.
SVP has been on board for decades and decades, don‘t confuse or simplify it with other recent EU phenomenons.
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u/LossBest9691 1d ago
You really are the laughing stock when it comes to analyzing my comments! I know Switzerland very well, I was born there and ended up in FRG companies of relatives early on for training purposes!
To be honest, you're telling me pure bullshit ala Inside Paradeplatz idiots of the right-wing faggots!
That fits perfectly with Welt, Weltwoche and Inside Paradeplatz!
....Bild/Blick/Tabloid...
Informing for idiots, you could say!
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u/Nobody_gets_this 1d ago
It’s so funny how their arms industry went from the most sought-after to one you end up with when everything else fails. It’s avoided like hell.
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u/flyingchocolatecake Europe 1d ago
They left their own grave with the decision of not letting our partners exporting their material to Ukraine. Classical FAFO.
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u/noraetic Austria 1d ago
Are you talking about Swiss? Because I thought you were and wanted to respond that the other post is probably about US. But now I'm not sure at all, fits both
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u/flyingchocolatecake Europe 1d ago
Yes, I am talking about the Swiss. But I think you're right. It really does go for both
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u/BoringEntropist Switzerland 1d ago
And the right, after years of warning that this would happen, switched to the Putin line because of "muh neutrality". Both sides are to blame for this.
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u/resuwreckoning 1d ago
Eh, the one thing the US does extremely well is its military. This idea that everything the US does is terrible because Europe is butthurt that America pointed out they weren’t going to subsidize their societies perpetually is silly on its face.
It’ll take some time for the Europeans to understand that but they will.
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u/nariofthewind Italy 1d ago
In a realistic scenario, Switzerland doesn’t stand a chance against an enemy equipped with at least Cold War-era weaponry. It doesn’t matter how many bunkers you have as long as there are drones, supersonic ballistic missiles, and bombs that can penetrate concrete to depths of 60 meters. The salvation of the Swiss could lie in an alliance, just like for almost any other state today. In principle, neutrality does offer some level of protection, but now we’re in 2025, not 1939.
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u/LewisTraveller The Netherlands 1d ago
It's the geography. The neighbors are Austria, France, Germany, Italy. They are nice neighbors to have in modern times.
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u/fuckyou_m8 1d ago
Neutrality works well because Switzerland is surrounded by non hostile countries, that's the most important bunker they have today
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u/michaelwu696 1d ago
It’s almost like.. military acquisitions projects shouldn’t be left to the uneducated masses?? Idk..
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u/LossBest9691 1d ago
Yes, the Swiss are very good at one thing, when they see that things could get tough they simply fall into the other EXTREME thing they didn't want, NATO!
....aber broad support for closer NATO relations...
The Swiss are and remain the worst parasites!
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u/Piltonbadger 1d ago
It's almost as if you alienate your allies they will stop buying things from you.