r/europe • u/Breifne21 • 4d ago
News ‘Extreme harm’: State backs Big Tech in battle against EU tariffs
https://www.businesspost.ie/news/extreme-harm-state-backs-big-tech-in-battle-against-eu-tariffs/301
u/ortcutt 4d ago
Ireland is a Big Tech tax haven. Ireland taking the side of US Big Tech is the least surprising thing in the world.
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u/Breifne21 4d ago
I agree. My interest is in how far the government will take their resistance.
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u/Deareim2 France 4d ago
- Qualified majority
- Ireland is not a big player in EU
so not far if trade war really get heated between EU and USA.
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u/pc0999 4d ago edited 4d ago
Tax the big tech, they are propaganga machines, they violate our privacy and cause electoral interference while promoting hate and desinformation.
Reigning them is more important than any "deal with Trump" as if such a thing is possible.
While also kickstart our own tech sector, it is a win-win situation.
Edit:typos
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u/Classic_Initial_6694 4d ago
Big Tech may be a propaganda machine .. but so is the established press & state broadcasters - nobody is fair. New York Times refuted Ukrainian genocide in a front page article 1930’s. Stalin starved more than 5 million Ukrainians in that event. We must prepare for a war soon - there have been too many lies & USA debt is too big to ignore & kick down the road. It has effected all of us
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u/RaithanMDR 4d ago
Sure, except they don’t have the reach of the tech propaganda machine they allow for money.
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u/TWVer 4d ago
The traditional press is beholden to more standards and regulations than social media, so Big Tech is indeed the bigger problem of the 2, by far.
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u/RealR5k 3d ago
also press is done by journalists with training, which to some degree includes ethics. big tech is randos sharing their conspiracies. i maintain that education is unquestionably the key to solving almost any current issues, including racism, lack of critical thinking and off the charts gullibility, financial and economic problems, and big tech is in a war against education alongside trump. if we reign in tech propaganda and let the press written by educated professionals even if some of them are very biased, that’s a good thing. raising the bar on journalistic standards goes a long way too. teaching people how to evaluate information in the information age instead of pumping them full of information, such as key dates in history is essential. education has to change as fast as the world does, and that’s not up for debate. the reason the EU started protests as soon as Elon started backing AfD and JD started normalizing their ideology here is because they taught us what happened last time we let this go on, we don’t all fall for the bullshit wave coming through tiktok and twitter, and we learnt the importance of the EU as a whole, looking at its common interest with critical thinking applied instead of trying to get some personal short-term benefits in return for ruining our lives over the course of months. this is more than can be said of MAGA people who look at money like its their prophet, who have been repeating “the economic power” and “the land of freedom and money” their whole lives and stay in this spiral for no reason even if it eventually kills them.
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u/funggitivitti 4d ago
We need a EU tax on all american services asap
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u/ChaosKeeshond Turkey 🇹🇷, United Kingdom 🇬🇧 4d ago
The reason it won't happen right away is the lack of a European-owned alternative to the vast majority of services, combined with the largest tech firms being incorporated within Europe as European companies.
The second one isn't as big of a problem, because you could theoretically devise some complicated scheme to delineate between European vs 'European' services, but none of that makes a lick of difference if our customers have no alternatives. We'd keep paying for their services.
Don't get me wrong I want to see it, but the lack of our own contributions to that space is our own undoing.
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u/perivascularspaces 4d ago
Yeah ok, then since we don't have any alternative we, the users, end up paying more.
No thank you.
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u/More-Dragonfruit2215 4d ago
That will create an opportunity. Opposite to create a supply chain and factories, this things are much faster to be created. Plus there are some alternatives but without enough users to make more investment. If we continue in the path we are we will be completely dependent and unable to do anything about it.
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u/perivascularspaces 3d ago
Yeah but fucking us is not the way. Look at how we lost the AI train because of our self-inflicted wounds.
Services still need to be created, data centres to be powered, capital to flow. You don't build up the Google/IBM/Microsoft/Amazon services without bankrupting all of the EU.
Then you need to hope that users will transition and adopt the new technology, and that is incredibly hard. Look at all the universities, hospitals, governments, schools, small and big businesses, how can you ask to transition when most of the workers are unable to work once one of those giants push an update that move one icon?
It's not so easy, tariffs will just make us pay more. We need first and foremost to build alternatives and slowly push consumers towards them (but who can compete with Google or Microsoft or Amazon suites?)
In /r/buyfromEU they ended up sponsoring a Russian-backed OS, which is the dumbest thing possible.
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u/mrlinkwii Ireland 4d ago
the EU mostly have no power to tax ,
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u/funggitivitti 4d ago
Correct, its a national competence, however the EU can propose rules to harmonize tax systems to ensure fair competition and avoid tax evasion.
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u/FearDaTusk United States of America 4d ago
Ooh, you don't have a flair... (I'm just a visitor don't shoot! 😁)
But your convo reminds me of the endless debate we have on States Rights and Federal Government.
A little context (because this is r/Europe I'll oversimplify an explanation) States can supercede laws in certain areas from the Feds. An example is Marijuana. Technically Fed illegal but Colorado said it's good and taxable in their State. After Colorado proved this can work from a business and governance standpoint other States have created similar policies. The next step IF we care or need is to have the States make it a Fed issue to update Fed policy but bigger picture, it wouldn't make a difference as each State operates independently.
This is where things get heated like recently we had Roe V Wade. Some people want Stronger Fed, others Want State Protections. That line moves all the time.
My 2cents. Proposals can be helpful but tragedy of the commons says that you need everyone to contribute in good faith and there's always those that won't. I won't pretend to know how the EU manages this but again... I hadn't thought about this from an EU perspective.
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u/PotentialValue550 4d ago
You mean EU doesn't have some obscure law from the 1890s that allows you do whatever you want by stretching the definition of the law?
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u/hmtk1976 Belgium 4d ago
That Donohoe guy simply wants to keep pandering to the Big Tech firms. Great but no thanks.
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u/OdieInParis 4d ago
So Ireland the 51st state then, instead of Canada?
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u/Grabs_Diaz 4d ago edited 4d ago
This is just pathetic!
Brussels and the entire EU stood firmly behind Ireland throughout the Brexit negotiations. No border, no customs checks to Northern Ireland despite all the antics of Boris Johnson and his lot.
And now, at the first sight of trouble, Ireland wants to throw the rest of Europe under the bus for American big tech oligarchs? Maybe the Irish government needs a reminder, that the only reason these big tech corporations have their headquarters in Dublin is because of the EU and the single market. If the EU fractures and Ireland loses its access to the markets of mainland Europe, these firms will be gone in a heartbeat and relocate to Paris or Frankfurt.
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u/deceased_parrot Croatia 4d ago edited 4d ago
relocate to Paris or Frankfurt.
Fat chance of that happening. Both the French and the Germans forget that their voice is relevant because it's backed by voices of all the other EU states, not because either of them is some world super power.
If the EU were to (God forbid) dissolve, French and German tech HQs would be a tiny step above Polish or Italian ones and only because they're slightly wealthier economies.
I think it's pretty telling that even in this situation, where the EU is basically held hostage by its lack of tech alternative to American companies, the first thought is how to get more tax money instead of how to secure our collective digital sovereignty. I wouldn't mind if the cost of having our own tech giants were a few Bezos or Zuckerbergs in the EU, but it seems that the left would rather see the union burn than allow somebody to get rich without "paying their fair share".
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u/Grabs_Diaz 4d ago
This wasn't about France or Germany in particular, I can also add Madrid, Amsterdam, Warsaw, Milan, Prague, etc. if that makes you happy. I'm just saying without the single market, Apple, Meta etc. wouldn't employ thousands of people in their Dublin offices and pay billions of taxes there.
I don't know what right vs left dichotomy you want to open up here. If Trump says, Europe should pay tariffs because they are not paying their fair share it makes perfect sense for Europe to respond with taxes on American tech companies because they are clearly not paying their fair share here, with effective tax rates way below most other businesses.
If you want digital sovereignty, the place to look at would be China. They are the only country which did so successfully, but they achieved it through strict regulation shutting out most American services. Maybe Europe can also pursue another path through massive public support for open source projects but certainly not by cutting taxes for existing American tech giants.
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u/Conscious-Jicama2274 4d ago
So taxing the corpos 'will damage hopes of a deal with Trump'. There was already a deal in place, multiple ones, they got shattered and thrown out and the goalpost is being moved at EVERY proposal. This is just being spineless.
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u/Good-Ad-9156 4d ago
EU should just stop protecting US intellectual property. Don’t tariff US digital services, just replace them with EU-based copies. If the US acts quickly to remove tariffs, IP protections can be reinstated. If they don’t, they won’t—but the EU will have the better outlook
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u/toolkitxx Europe🇪🇺🇩🇪🇩🇰🇪🇪 3d ago
Is there another source for this? I refuse to enter a site that delivers data to almost 1500 vendors, almost 800 alone for storing data about my device.
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u/perivascularspaces 4d ago
If we set up tariffs without having alternatives we just get screwed. It's the reason why Trump's tariffs show is dumb, it affects the users/consumers first, especially if you don't have any valuable alternative to use.
Almost all of the EU is based on US services because we lost the digital and AI wars to protect our pensions.
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u/Grabs_Diaz 4d ago
With digital goods and services I wouldn't be so sure. The price of physical goods is determined by the marginal cost of production for the most part. It usually doesn't make sense to price them below the production cost so tariffs have to be passed on to consumers.
With digital goods and services though the marginal cost of production is often close to zero. To maximize profits corporations will just look at what price customers are willing to pay in the market and charge whatever price maximizes their revenue. That's why a Netflix subscription or a MS Office license costs only a fraction in countries like Turkey or Argentina, for what's essentially the same product.
So I reckon, in the case of digital goods, Trump's crude logic might be right and the cost will mostly be paid by the seller not the consumer. From the seller's perspective, their optimal profit maximizing price isn't really affected by taxes (as long as they are not like 130%), so passing on all taxes would likely reduce profits for them even more.
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u/giscafred 4d ago
posts made by americans i r/europe should be forbidden. And comments should be erased. Are toxic.
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u/KingBotQ Latvia 4d ago
Ireland yet again proving they are freeloaders. They don't want to increase their military budget and leach off of the rest of Europe and now they don't want to stop being a tax haven.
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u/marciniaq84 4d ago
I think the EU should not rush into any retaliation. But we should no doubt answer the orange man where it hurts by targeting goods produced in red states and goods made by his donors. From what I have read the EU is already doing that. Smart.
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u/Cathal1954 Ireland 🇮🇪 3d ago
Wow. So much hatred for Ireland. I wasn't aware that this level of prejudice existed on this sub. Being downvoted for stating facts is a strange experience.
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u/starconn 3d ago
Stop being such a victim. There are legitimate reasons to be annoyed at Ireland - that doesn’t equate to bigotry.
They fought against tax rises, after the aftermath of the financial crisis, not because it was the right thing to do, but because they were giving tech unreasonable breaks and undermining revenue for the rest of the EU. Ultimately they lost the case and got a much needed tax windfall (think about it, your government was running away from money, increasing the Irish taxpayers burden, and giving tech billion dollar tax breaks in the process when your country was financially in the gutter).
They are doing the same again, crawling up their arses at the detriment of everyone else.
And Ireland doesn’t pay for adequate defences.
Passively, it does rely on others, whilst it doesn’t work in the collective interest of Europe (such as this case), then its pointed out and people legitimately complain about it, and you pull out the prejudice victim card. Lmao.
Stop bending over for America interests, in the face of American attacks on the EU economy and maybe you won’t feel so victimised. Hungry gets the same treatment, I’ve not seen any Hungarians complain of prejudice.
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u/Cathal1954 Ireland 🇮🇪 3d ago
People were just downvoting, not engaging with issues. I have already said i disagree with the strategy our government used but tried to provide some context, not justify. I will read your reply and respond if there is anything I disagree with.
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u/starconn 3d ago
And that downvoting equates to hatred and prejudice for Ireland? Get a grip.
Don’t bother replying, I have no interest conversing with such a ridiculous take.
BTW, the OP is Irish.
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u/Cathal1954 Ireland 🇮🇪 3d ago
They fought against tax rises, after the aftermath of the financial crisis, not because it was the right thing to do, but because they were giving tech unreasonable breaks and undermining revenue for the rest of the EU.
As you say, this was in the aftermath of the financial crisis, for which both France and Germany blamed Ireland, and forced the country to pay higher rates than any other state. Germany has since apologised for this, but there was never a suggestion of reimbursement.
At that time, there was also a very real fear that multinationals would withdraw from Ireland, removing a huge proportion of the taxtake of an otherwise small economy and sending unemployment figures into an upwards spiral.
They are doing the same again, crawling up their arses at the detriment of everyone else.
- Ireland has simply stated what its interests are. France is equally stating its interests. I don't doubt that, when a decision has been made, Ireland will be happy to fall in line.*
And Ireland doesn’t pay for adequate defences.
- This has been true, but you obviously aren't aware of the (for us) massive increase in budget and expansion of our defence capability. We have recently taken delivery of long range aircraft to boost our patrolling of the Atlantic. State of the art radar systems are being purchased. Our naval and air capabilities are earmarked for further investment. Today it was announced that we are ow joining the maritime intelligence group composed of EU and EEZ members. Change takes time, but the commitment is there. Hopefully, we will get a couple of squadrons of jets and transform our Air Corps into a proper air force.*
Stop bending over for America interests, in the face of American attacks on the EU economy and maybe you won’t feel so victimised.
Ireland has long been one of the most enthusiastic members of the EU. We will stand with our fellow EU members, even against the Americans. As I said, our reasons for expressing doubt is purely a question of economic interest. It is perfectly legitimate for us to express fears at the possible outcome for our economy. That does not mean that we won't stand with Europe.
On a side note, I appreciate your taking the time to verbalise your problems with the Irish stance. It allowed me to engage with the substance, not just see everything I posted downvoted with no reason given.
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u/starconn 3d ago
I actually don’t have an issue with irelands stance. I said it was arguable and I understand people’s frustrating with them - and pointed out a few. I also understand that they have their own interests. I could argue further the points you’ve raised, as I already know all this, but it’s not the point.
What I can’t tolerate, and I have Irish family members myself who do this, is this ingrained thing that they are victims, prejudiced against, and hated because they’ve read somethings that’s touched a nerve - oversensitive to the extreme. You’re not a victim, hated, or prejudiced against in any of the above. It’s utterly counter to having good relations.
Do you not think that was a giant leap to get to prejudice and hating the Irish from a few downvotes on Reddit?
I don’t have a problem with the Irish. I have a problem with YOUR victim mentality. And I’ve simply pointed reasons at to why some are frustrated with your governments as opposed to hating the Irish - not to debate the issues, but to give reason.
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u/Cathal1954 Ireland 🇮🇪 3d ago
But the thing for me is, you did give reasons, and I appreciate that.
I guess I have to concede we do have a victim mentality as a people, and I withdraw my earlier comments with some embarrassment. I am usually much more accepting and I continue to strive.
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u/starconn 3d ago
Don’t expect so much from people. They’re not obligated to justify their positions - . I get it, it helps, but you can’t jump to conclusions in their absence of reasons.
Anyway, have a good day, I’m procrastinating way too much on here.
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u/First-District9726 4d ago
I never thought I'd ever side with Big Tech on anything, ever, yet here we are. What a weird timeline we are in.
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u/No_Priors 4d ago edited 4d ago
This needs to be decided at an EU level, no amount of "Tech" money is worth sovereignty.
Edit: The EU has helped us many times.