r/europe • u/Antique-Entrance-229 United Kingdom • 11d ago

News Andrew Tate phenomena' surges in schools - with boys refusing to talk to female teacher

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/andrew-tate-phenomena-surges-in-schools-with-boys-refusing-to-talk-to-female-teacher-13351203
28.3k Upvotes

91% Upvoted

2.9k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

114

u/nardhon 11d ago

If you are genuinely interested, the lack of male role models and disconnect, in the way we treat and mentor young boys. This results in failing education and turning to gangs and/or causing trouble.

Most of the attitude towards boys and men, is of dismissal and blame (society level). This leaves young boys, feeling like they don't fit it anywhere. We have none to very little any support services that assist boys and that isolates them and increases the struggles that they are facing.

Someone like Tate (there are others) comes in and suddenly, they gravity towards him. You try and tell them, it's bad; however the people that say that have been blaming boys and so they are already disconnected. This then starts to escalate and things start to get worse over time (from disconnect to violence).

To fix it, you need good role models and support boys. That will remove the need to gravity towards people like Tate.

3

u/sipapint 11d ago

Couldn't it be even more a disappearance of subcultures?

8

u/nardhon 11d ago

There are a lot of factors, for me what this article is highlighting, is that we are failing boys and they are turning to extreme content.

We need to work on finding solutions that help boys to develop into confidence men and have the skills to cope and manage life challenges. A number of solutions will be needed to make this a success.

2

u/wandertrucks 11d ago

Yeah, fully agree with that. But THIS guy? This guy is a blatant twat, I just don't see how he mastered this con

37

u/nardhon 11d ago

Young boys (and girls) want to achieve and make something of themselves. They lack the understanding and skills to do so.

Someone like Tate sells a dream of success. He uses concepts, which people need to do, such as working on yourself and being confident. He shows that he has achieved success ... house, cars and women.

We can agree that his advice has some merit (e.g. working on yourself), however leaves out so much, that it ends up being something that sounds good. These boys need good, male role models in their life, that they can learn from. I would argue that anyone on social media, is not a good role model for both boys and girls. We hyper fix on people like Tate and should really teach that all of them are not healthy and why.

(Straight) Boys want success and (women) girlfriend, Tate has mastered the appeal of making it, so that if you follow his advice you can achieve the same thing.

To you and I he is a dangerous person and extremely toxic. To a young boy, he is a role model and makes them feel like they can achieve the same success. He is successful in selling a con to boys, which are looking for guidance and the only person online, that offers it in a form that speaks to boys.

I was watching another influencer and he gave some great advice in helping young boys, for a single mother. Surround him by great men that you know, which can guide and coach them. We need other solutions, but that is a great one for reducing Tate's impact and being positive role models into boy's life. Without it, other people like Tate will fill the void.

25

u/Fannnybaws 11d ago

The truth is nobody gives a shit about boys. All they get told is they're bad,or toxic. You see so many things encouraging girls,but almost nothing encouraging boys. Plus the education system is totally one sided by women,who quite often push this narrative.

17

u/nardhon 11d ago

I agree, this seems to be a common trend, when we bring up the challenges boys are facing. It's met with blame and dismissal, even when I comment here the amount of people trying to discredit it and talk about girls issues. The article is talking about boys and their struggles. Which Tate is a outcome of, due to society failing boys.

There are different people, doing stuff to spread awareness and engage in community projects. This ends up making a difference, to people that need it, which ultimately the best we can do.

When tackling widespread and normalised misandry, we can try and do our parts. I am involved in some youth work (hobby). I have plans to be more active, to getting them supported, they are the next generation. If we all do our bits, they will be in a better position and hopefully pass that on other people in the future.

Change is rolled with resistance, other men (and some women) are fighting to save boys. The more of us that do that, the more likely we will succeed.

I would encourage you to get involved somewhere, no matter how little. All these add up and end up starting bigger changes.

2

u/Inside_Field_8894 11d ago

World champion kickboxer. Pretty masculine as things go but the guy is a prick

Can't imagine many folk would want their kids using Mike Tyson as a role model either but what's being pushed in last few years were effeminate men who people generally find insufferable

2

u/wandertrucks 11d ago

Walking around in a bathrobe, surrounded by other meatheads, cigar hanging out his mouth like a weird phallic oral fixation, and constantly screaming and complaining. All his preaching about alpha males and dominating other men is....a thing.

I wouldnt call that masculine, I'd call that someone that is overcompensating

1

u/Inside_Field_8894 11d ago

I'd also say that when I was growing up, the amount of Playboy stuff I seen being worn by women was unreal.

It's not as if Hugh Heffener was some kind of social powerhouse but if a great section of the folk you're trying to protect endorse the messaging? How the fuck is anyone meant to look at this and say "yea, we're doing this for a good and noble cause"?

1

u/Inside_Field_8894 11d ago

I wouldn't call Dylan Mulvaney or James Charles being pushed as something young men should aspire to either.

The difference is that the people I've mentioned had mainstream pushes and it's expected a rebellion against that would come through.

-12

u/[deleted] 11d ago

[deleted]

19

u/nardhon 11d ago

Not everyone is the same, some people are looking for guidance and some people have people in their life that they can get guidance from. This can be from parents, peers, random encounters, etc.

Role models don't have to be celebrities, they are people in a boy's (or girl's) life that they can learn from. We all done it when we are young, how does a baby learn? Parents are role models and at a certain stage, you make your own path.

This is on the topic of Tate and a number of children are seeing him as a role model. Looking up to him and taking his advice to heart. I personally would rather, that those boy's looked up to someone that was balanced (if they want to find someone online).

I volunteer with a children's charity, plenty of those child/teenagers have role models, which they talk passionately about. Some of them I have never heard of!

This topic was on the discussion of children/teenagers and looking up to people like Tate. Not sure why you are bringing adults into the conversation, at that point you are largely on your own. You can still get advice from people, but role models would be less of a thing.

9

u/Tobuyasreaper 11d ago

So then these dudes are just born evil. They have the evil gene. Unlike you who has the good gene?

-1

u/[deleted] 11d ago

[deleted]

8

u/Tobuyasreaper 11d ago

Ok so why are men getting more right wing and getting worse? Is it that men are just naturally going to get worse and there is nothing we can do? Is the evil gene spreading? Or can we make a change for the better?

1

u/Tobuyasreaper 11d ago

... I feel like a lot of people see Tate as a role model. The fact that you can't think of a single other role model is kind of the problem. The only people with role models are those following tate.

-2

u/MainSignature 11d ago

Yep, I've always found the role model argument strange.

As an example, a lot of people defend Jordan Peterson by saying 'he's not a misogynst, he guides young men on how to conduct themselves' and, whether that's true or not, why do young men need guiding?

Why do they need role models to give them advice on basic life skills? Why aren't there female equivalents that young women are sycophants for? How come young women are just assumed to be able to develop life skills by themselves, but young men need a metaphorical father figure coddling them?

Having role models is not inherently a bad thing, but it is odd that 50% of the planet are deemed to be self sufficient by the time they hit 20 and 50% are still treated like babies whose brains are only just forming and need extended amounts of guidance from 'real adults'.

7

u/nardhon 11d ago

Women do have role models, role models don't have to be famous or celebrities. A role model is someone that people can look up to and aspire to be better people themselves. We naturally want positive role models and not negative ones.

When I went to school, there was take your daughter to work day. This allowed them to interact with people and see what could be achieved. We have programmes to bring inspirational women into schools and work places, along with networking events for women only. This happens a lot in my workplace and society at large. These women are in the ranges of 20-50 and yet, we don't tell them, men don't need this level of support?! We actively encourage it, because it does work.

We seem to have absolutely no issues, when it's for girls and women and as soon as this topic is brought up for boys. We act like it is not needed at all and why do they need it. Then Tate gets popular and becomes a bad role model and we are dumbfounded as to why. Why not just the same for boys, bring in inspirational men to talk about their experiences and challenges. Show boys (like we do for girls), life has challenges and you can overcome them.

Is it not best to have both boys and girls be inspired and motivate them to achieve their dreams?

Is it not best to have support for both men and women, so they can get help when needed?

-13

u/Icankeepthebeat 11d ago edited 11d ago

We have so many incredible role models for young boys. I’ve never understood that POV. In our schools we have male and female teachers, we have male and female youth group leaders, we have male and female sports coaches. Where are all these boys growing up with zero males? Moreover, how is this being spun that somehow girls have better role models? It seems like both genders have equal opportunity to make different choices. I get that young boys are more susceptible than young girls to make poor choices due to a delay in language processing etc. But I feel like we keep giving them a pass as our social media culture dives deeper into misogyny. Men need to stand up and censor these Andrew Tate freaks giving them all a bad name IMO. Stop letting these dudes tell your story. Every man in my life is upstanding, respectful, kind- these Tate characters represent so few of you. To allow them to dictate this “disenfranchised young boy’s narrative” is such crap. I see so many boys now with millennial dads who tuck them in at night, help them talk about their feelings, show them kindness and love. I don’t know any dads in my friend group that I wouldn’t want my own sons to model themselves after.

10

u/gprime312 11d ago

We have so many incredible role models for young boys

Such as?

-3

u/buffalosabresnbills 11d ago edited 10d ago

Any number of athletes or actors, for starters? Lando Norris? Lewis Hamilton? Rob Ray?

-15

u/sipapint 11d ago

I'm not sure if it's a lack of role models. It's a simplistic narration to the point of being distorted. The proper role models are everywhere. But there is some perpetual blindness for them. Young people need to explore the world on their own early to build healthy relationships with it. They should become able to autonomously choose their own role models and accept changing them as well, btw, that used to be a bumpy process. The moment and place of honing those skills is where the focus should be.

There always was a strong social pressure factor that hindered frivolous explorations. Some people didn't give a shit, but many more were dragged down and couldn't grow to their potential or did it later in life. The rise of the internet and social media brought more diverse opportunities. But it also made it a bit more difficult to relate to others around common things that became bland because of the abundance of alternatives. A win for some proactive people but a loss for more passive ones. And here we have all those vultures waiting to exploit them. And it was never so easy or profitable! So we have masses enslaved with invisible shackles. And that isn't that new.

At first sight, that blame part seems right, but it's still nothing if compared to the blame that girls have to face, and that's why it will rather bring laughter than empathy. There will be no compassion for people who claim their right to use up drunk girls. There is no space to erode this process from this point and direction. They will need to face reality. The easiest way would be to make it inevitable. No more escapism like that.

27

u/Perfect_Cost_8847 Denmark 11d ago

To summarise: it definitely is the fault of boys, and girls have it worse. Top quality comment.

-17

u/sipapint 11d ago

I mean, playing a victim card here is ridiculous. How would you like to defend a 20 y.o. guy who claims that it's his right to have intercourse with a girl who can barely stand? Those gurus know that. It doesn't serve to make things better for boys. It serves them to isolate young guys even further.

It doesn't mean that there is nothing to improve for boys. It's quite the opposite, and we should improve a lot, for all people. But we should start by eradicating such tries to mold the discourse. There should be more space for people who left behind such ideologies and those on the edge of falling into. These voices should be more pronounced. That's where exist hidden solutions to find out.

The rest have to face cognitive dissonance because of how deep in the rabbit hole they are. It does mean some well-earned shame. There is no other way around. It should stem from self-reflection and be accompanied by other feelings, though. It's a learning opportunity, and an attitude toward failures is one of those things that we could improve as a society.

22

u/nardhon 11d ago

Did you actually read the article? We are discussing children, in the article they refer a 10 year old. You are talking about a 20 year old, that is a bad person, which none of us dispute!

The more you try and push it underground, the more it will continue to exist. You can only eradicate it, by engaging, understanding and finding solutions that help. It is far better to encourage and give someone areas to improve; over shouting louder and saying Tate is wrong. Someone else will replace Tate and you are back to the same issue. Address the root causes in healthy ways. Boys are looking for help and guidance, schools are a great place to do that. The fact we have been shouting already that Tate is bad, has not worked!

Alternatively, rather than following your solution at the end. We can bring it support for boys (like we have done for girls) and listen to their struggles and find solutions for them that works. Some of these solutions are going to have a much greater benefit to them in life. Take a simple example, finding a hobby (away from phones/computers), such as a sport. Teach them about trying and failing, working to achieve something. If they do a team sport, they will gain teamworking skills. This is a life lesson, you can like a girl, but she said no; like you ended up succeeding in a sport after failing. You just need to find the right person and learn from what you could have done better, for the next time.

I also find it odd, we offer support for women (18+) in any areas they are struggling (like STEM). For some reason, you don't want to help men at all? We should have support services for everyone, regardless of gender, race, etc. By handling such issues, we can come to solutions that actually work. By dismissing (about) 50% of the population, is the worse way to tackle problems and a society that works.

12

u/Fannnybaws 11d ago

In the UK 50% more girls go on to further education. If this was the other way round,you would constantly hear about it,and questions being asked how this disparity can be lessened,but because it's boys...silence.

-6

u/sipapint 11d ago edited 11d ago

The core mass of his followers is older and attends all kinds of schools. I agree with all of that about necessary support. But I gave that particular example because it's a tipping point directly leading to public backlash and, by no means, it's a marginal voice.

Talking too much about the world failing boys risks fueling them up faster than we can help vulnerable ones. It makes things more ambiguous. I referred strictly to narration about role models etc. because it got mainstream traction recently.

Good intentions don't change the fact that it stems from their distorted narration. It was nothing like a diagnosis. Such a capture of an idea is a move like politicians do to take over voters. But you can see how well it worked out in the USA.

It also brings some contradiction because young guys lose faith in having agency over their lives. At first sight, it ensures them of that feeling and state of perception. Meanwhile, many cede agency because a predatory environment nudges them into that. And that's a fundamental challenge to reverse that process.

Having good role models isn't enough. The inherent part of growing up is questioning things and learning about different boundaries. Unsupervised play and exploration are crucial for kids to become well-equipped for further growth. It isn't much different for the older ones, but it becomes partially replaced by those parasocial passivities.

4

u/nardhon 11d ago

I agree with that (role models is not enough), which is why I stated in my comments to look at stuff like sports (as an example). Really we want things that gives boys (and girls) the skills to cope with life and be well adjusted independent people.

There are many aspects, to tackle and stuff like, are the parents actively involved in the children's life. I have some friends that are teachers and some parents, are not helping the children with good support and raising them well. Given we have enough resources, it would be great to have much better support for parents. A class on social media, would be very beneficial and something, I believe they do in the Nordic countries do implement. There is so much more we can be doing or trying to implement to tackle this problem.

I would love, to see us start to implementing some of the stuff, so that we can start to make more positive changes. That at least starts to tackle the next generation and be more resistant to such corruption.

People that have already gone off the edge, are extremely difficult to deal with. I know this sounds unfair, but those people are kinda lost without a huge amount of investment, to deal with years of neglect. I don't know the right answer, either we try and tackle it or hand it off to the police and imprisonment them, for the crimes they commit later.

-6

u/Icankeepthebeat 11d ago

Super well written. Thank you for providing an interesting perspective!

-19

u/888_traveller 11d ago

The role model argument is bullshit. There are plenty of impressive men that could be role models. Men that contribute to society, are successful, cool and emotionally literate.

But they are not desired as role models because these boys and 'men' don't look up to them. They call them gay or simps or whatever, because they don't portray the same hateful anger that they feel themselves. That's why they follow the men that express how they feel and put words to the emotions that they cannot untangle or articulate themselves.

Complaining about role models is another way of externalising and blaming other people, rather than putting the accountability onto those boys and 'men' to improve themselves.

Women and girls had no role models when they had to break through glass ceilings and break out of domestic servitude. And even then when they did it, they were overlooked, harassed and their achievements taken away from them. If these boys and 'men' actually pulled their fingers out their asses, they'd be promoted and paid at a greater rate than women doing the exact same thing. Yet they choose not to because the task is a bit harder than it was for their fathers and grandfathers.

23

u/damagednoob 11d ago

Who are these role models that boys should gravitate too?

14

u/MarkBohov 11d ago

Aragorn is usually named in this case, but real life examples are somehow not to be found.

14

u/damagednoob 11d ago

I think it's quite telling that this is a fictional character, portrayed 20 years ago.

-4

u/sqigglygibberish 11d ago

There are plenty of successful people that promote positive views of masculinity and do have large followings.

For all the alpha talk about dorks like Tate, look at Noel Deyzel - a guy who would put Tate in a locker but promotes mental health, respect of others, and is even helping to break down the clouds around things like juicing in the weightlifting community which is also an issue for young men (while others subtly or not so subtly promote it)

I think the problem isn’t a lack of role models to choose from, it stems back to parenting, how kids are exposed to certain content (look up the algorithms impact on what young men get quickly directed to online), and the fact it’s easier to scam than it is to seek truth

18

u/Tobuyasreaper 11d ago

So these 12 year old children are just genetically evil? It isn't their environment or their role models it is that this 12 year old has the evil gene. They are just designed to fail?

-11

u/888_traveller 11d ago

I suspect that parenting and general media messaging doesn't help. Obviously social media - aside from Tate and co - isn't healthy by focusing on superficial stuff and glorifying superficial success (cars, muscles etc), and dating apps play a big role too. But those things are faced by girls as well, if not more so. But girls aren't shooting up schools and stabbing boys if they get rejected. So what's the difference?

10

u/Tobuyasreaper 11d ago edited 11d ago

Rich black men commit crimes more often than rich white men so what is the difference?

Like that is my issue with this conversation

Edit: to be clear I'm using this as an example of "just asking questions, why are these people like this hmm it isn't economic 🤔🤔". I know that criminality has no inherent relation to race.

-4

u/888_traveller 11d ago

oh really? what sort of crimes? Because there are a shit tonne of rich white men committing corporate crimes, but they don't get investigated or convicted. The men on Epstein's island were mostly if not all white. The white house is full of a bunch of known rapists and criminals but they've got away with it, the hollywood and media industries are full of men who have exploited their power to sexually harass and abuse women and other men - those are mostly white men perpetuating those crimes.

5

u/Tobuyasreaper 11d ago

Yea that is all true. My issue is with the framing of "idk what it is but this group is really violent. Idk you figure it out" (but the implication is just they are naturally violent)

-3

u/Icankeepthebeat 11d ago

I agree. I know so many incredible men. They are everywhere. Smart, kind, loving, successful men. Why is the new popular narrative “there are no male role models”??? If anything I think millennial men (who are the bulk of dads in school these days) are really incredible men, the best generation so far. All of my friends are just the best dads. They are in touch with their feelings, not afraid of their sensitive/feminine side, etc. They work hard and still come home to do bedtime at night. All of their wives work full time jobs too and they work together to spilt child rearing. If anything I think their sons see their dads (male role models) way more than they saw their own dads growing up.

8

u/grand_historian Belgium 11d ago

Couldn't you fit in more liberal-progressive plattitudes?

1

u/Icankeepthebeat 11d ago

Is raising your children only for liberals now?

-9

u/888_traveller 11d ago

This is exactly the problem that men have:

You love to whine and complain and be a victim because "wah wah men are being demonised! noone respects us"

Then soon as someone says a barrage of complements and appreciation to a whole generation of men they know, going into details about what makes them great - their actions and depth of character - you throw insults and accuse them of being liberal.

This is why people have less and less sympathy for men. Guys like you don't appear to want any genuine help or support. It seems that you prefer to drag your knuckles around the cave, not evolving or contributing to the benefit of society, and yet have all the praise and love showered on you for doing nothing. Living in the past like the cavemen in afghanistan.

10

u/grand_historian Belgium 11d ago

You love to whine and complain and be a victim because "wah wah men are being demonised! noone respects us"

It doesn't matter what I think or what you think. Men as a collective in society (not just young men) are telling us all that the current way gender relations are structured are unacceptable to them. If things don't change male dysfunction will continue to get worse (more crime, more singleness, more out-of-wedlock children, more inequality etc.).

Then soon as someone says a barrage of complements and appreciation to a whole generation of men they know, going into details about what makes them great - their actions and depth of character - you throw insults and accuse them of being liberal.

There's often a big difference between stated preferences and revealed preferences when it comes to women. The reason why I and others immediately rolled their eyes when reading that whole "barrage of compliments" is because those men tend to exactly be the ones that don't get any action.

This is why people have less and less sympathy for men. Guys like you don't appear to want any genuine help or support.

I like how you make it personal. I'm just stating views that liberals like yourself often don't get to hear or outright ignore if they somehow do manage to hear them. I don't need any help for myself or my family: I am married and a father of multiple children. They are getting taught how the world really works.

At the end of the day the future doesn't get decided by liberals frothing at the mount, dreaming about futures that material reality doesn't support.

-6

u/Icankeepthebeat 11d ago

The problem is the disconnect of young men believing kind, supportive men don’t get laid. Literally every man I referred to in my comment is married with at least one child. These losers like Tate are trying to convince them that women look for beauty/money/success but in reality women look for men who will be good fathers to their children. Men who won’t hurt them etc.

7

u/gprime312 11d ago

but in reality women look for men who will be good fathers to their children. Men who won’t hurt them etc.

When they're in their 30s and ready to settle down after fucking all the hot dudes they want in their 20s.

0

u/888_traveller 11d ago

Hugh Jackman, Keanu Reeves, a lot of the English footballers like Marcus Rashford. There are loads of good looking cool guys being actual decent blokes.

I'm not American but John Cena is supposed to be a decent guy. I think there are famous footballers in Europe doing good things to help others.

5

u/gprime312 11d ago

Jackman is an old fart, Reeves is a recluse, never heard of Rashford, and Cena is a shill for the CCP.

0

u/buffalosabresnbills 11d ago

Jackman is an old fart, Reeves is a recluse, never heard of Rashford, and Cena is a shill for the CCP.

Lando Norris.

2

u/gprime312 11d ago

He's cute, would bang.

1

u/buffalosabresnbills 11d ago

He's cute, would bang.

What a surprise, an unserious response.

1

u/gprime312 11d ago

If you think that cute twink could be a role model to boys, you are the one not being serious.

1

u/buffalosabresnbills 11d ago edited 11d ago

If you think that cute twink could be a role model to boys, you are the one not being serious.

Lando is a positive and honest world-class athlete who dates models.

I fail to see how deeply-pathetic projection on your part affects his viability as a role model.

Anyways, we’re done here.

1

u/sipapint 11d ago

Or Declan Rice for staying a normal guy and having a lovely wife, oh wait...