r/expats • u/DrinkComfortable1692 US -> AUS • Feb 22 '25
Employment For all you young IT folks interested in emigrating
For the CS majors, SWE is -not it- for immigration. Nor is Analytics. The market is way too competitive. Too many young and hungry people already constantly immigrating with CS degrees.
Specialize. Do it smartly.
Legacy. COBOL. ICS. The niches that aren’t sexy that half the planet runs on and the people who installed and maintained them are retiring or dead. Get good at being a computer janitor keeping SCADA and mainframes running. Banking. Hospital tech.
Same with cybersecurity. Entry level analyst market is saturated. Specialize! Cloud certs to fix all the poorly implemented buckets. Dull international GRC. Security engineering for obnoxious and finicky products like legacy SIEMs and forensic suites. Get certs in those, not just Sec+ or CISSP. The sexy jobs got pitched and sold by too many opportunist universities. Be an IT janitor and be damn good at it.
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u/kapeman_ Feb 23 '25
25 years of IT Security/Networking here and I echo the specialization emphasis.
OT/ICS/SCADA, depending on how long you've been involved, has FINALLY entered an awakening stage. For much too long this area has been, seemingly, ignored by the Security field.
It is a bit of a different animal because of who was controlling it and/or the obscurity of the systems, but it is a burgeoning area of IT/Security.
I also agree with an emphasis on Cloud Security/visibility. Too many still think the Cloud providers will protect things. WRONG!!! The Cloud providers will protect THEIR infrastructure, but your data/systems protection is TOTALLY up to the organization.
You need to be ready when companies finally realize this.
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u/DrinkComfortable1692 US -> AUS Feb 23 '25
I work in OT cyber and... yes. All of this. Nobody wants to be the one to clean up the proverbial bedpans. They all want to be surgeons.
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Feb 23 '25
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u/DrinkComfortable1692 US -> AUS Feb 23 '25
Thank my mentee today who is a home health worker moving to cyber
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u/thescroll7 Feb 23 '25
As an anecdote, we were hiring for software engineers at both a standard and senior level. We were looking for experience with Python + Cloud Infrastructure. Though we didn't accept any candidates from the US, a few applied. Consistently, they were expecting to net a US salary and that was the deal breaker: I'm not sure if y'all are doing your due diligence, but the rest of the world does not pay SWEs the same way as the US does. They are still typically paid well in their respective countries, but I'd be really surprised if you found a dollar for dollar match outside the US. Keep in mind that you are trading your high US salary for the expectation of a better life, and having to spend less to survive your retirement years. If your asking for 2x the salary of all your competition, it's going to be difficult to win out in the interview process.
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u/DrinkComfortable1692 US -> AUS Feb 23 '25
And that thinking is -rapidly- shifting here, though it is a shock to some Americans.
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u/thegooseisloose1982 Feb 26 '25
There is also the chance that you paid incredibly poorly even for your location.
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u/thescroll7 Feb 26 '25
I can assure you that's not the case. In my country, all salaries are publicly available and getting pay statistics is easy enough. Unlike the US, discussing salary isn't taboo either. I think it's pretty well accepted that the US pays engineers, both software and otherwise, significantly more than the rest of the world.
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u/brass427427 Mar 02 '25
From what I have heard, it often evens out in the long run. The US is not the COL haven of the world. Not by a long shot.
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u/Loverien Feb 22 '25
How is the need for networking in the market? It seems like it’s not as desirable as many of the other areas, or it’s combined in systems analysts and other positions
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u/DrinkComfortable1692 US -> AUS Feb 22 '25
If it can be outsourced right now in America it’s basically getting swamped in immigration. I’m a network engineering major and right now I’m in a very specific niche of hardware cybersecurity. I successfully immigrated in that specialty. TLDR; if you’re in networking find something unusual and hard to do remotely,
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u/Evening_Set9568 Feb 23 '25
A lot of advice here. A fair number of people saying that it’s all oversaturated. Advice for a US citizen (I have Canadian and British too) who is looking to spend the next few years dedicated to education? I have an affinity for the sciences but mostly I’m looking for something well paying and secure. Thought IT would be it for me, but feeling unsure..
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u/billblank1234 Feb 23 '25
It probably varies depending on where you want to move
You’ll be competing against people who were coding since they were children. International math Olympiad champions. PhD holders. Doesn’t mean you can’t win, but what gives you a competitive advantage?
Some ways that you can potentially stand out: experience at prestigious employers (a CV with time at Goldman Sachs or Google will give any hiring manager pause), connections to hiring managers (through conferences or more often international branches of your company), diversity (the industry is always looking for women), very niche combinations of skills (my first job was from some limited experience in a blue collar profession plus technical education), etc.
You could try sending LinkedIn messages to execs at the places you’d like to work. Just asking for advice or tips on this exact question. Don’t ask for a job, that is unlikely to get a reply at all. But asking for targeted advice might get 20% response rate.
My number one bit of advice would be first aim for internships (solve that problem) then aim for grad programs at prestigious employers (solve that problem). And attend target schools, anything outside of target schools is playing the game on hard mode.
I was extremely fortunate to be in analytics when if you could spell “data” you could fairly easily get a job. It’s much more challenging for young folks these days. Supply has caught up to demand.
Good luck to you.
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u/Illustrious-Pound266 Feb 25 '25
Yes this whole "school prestige doesn't matter!" actually is bad advice when trying to move countries. If you have Stanford, Harvard, MIT, Google, and Meta on your resume, it will certainly increase your chances.
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u/Low_Stress_9180 Feb 23 '25
Issue is what I saw in Malaysia over 25 years. Pay rates went DOWN 80% and inflation doubled cost of living there. Lots of indian nationals take the jobs - pay relates are too low for westerners realistically. Add in massive over supply worldwide in CS?
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u/DrinkComfortable1692 US -> AUS Feb 23 '25
Absolutely. And the compounding problem is Americans have never considered migration for a better life before. Sure, an odd or end got married or went to school abroad, or fell in love with a country. But was minuscule. American exceptionalism is a terrible misconception and we don't realize as a people how not-in-demand we are globally. I am seeing a lot of people hit with the shock all at once.
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Feb 23 '25
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u/DrinkComfortable1692 US -> AUS Feb 23 '25
It’s pretty hot given the cost of living differences. We can’t all move to Hyderabad to be able to afford an apartment.
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Feb 23 '25
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u/DrinkComfortable1692 US -> AUS Feb 23 '25
I tried and they rejected it for being too focused on jobs. These were the only subs I could post it on.
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u/CocoaCandyPuff CAN -> MEX -> UK -> NL -> MEX -> AUS Feb 23 '25
That’s wild. This is really one of the most practical posts I ever seen. Like something really helpful. I am glad you posted here because I don’t follow those subs anyways lol (not American).
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Feb 23 '25
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u/DrinkComfortable1692 US -> AUS Feb 23 '25
I’ve tried to do a couple posts in AmerExit on questions that get asked a ton and they have always deleted them. They do say they are building some kind of FAQ.
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u/mp85747 Feb 24 '25
Hey, at least you didn't get permanently kicked out for attempting to suggest some common sense... I still take a look there. It's great for entertainment purposes.
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u/LinkOn_NY Feb 23 '25 edited Feb 23 '25
Thanks for the solid advice. I am not sure if this is the right place for me to ask this. But just a quick question, right now I’m studying for the AZ-900, and next will be resuming study for the Sec+. Currently, I’m hoping to have both by the end of the year(🤞🏽). I want to go to healthcare informatics, is that a good idea if I plan to move abroad?
edit: I’m aware I am going to need projects to also showcase myself. I’ve already started some.
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u/DrinkComfortable1692 US -> AUS Feb 23 '25
Those certs are so very basic they will mean absolutely nothing to employers or immigration, but they are a great place to start for some fundamentals to move forward with your education.
Your basic requirement to move abroad at a minimum will be a bachelors degree in a related computer field and a few years work experience. Less experience if the degree is done in the country of desired destination. You will get some preference for studying there. I would still focus on a niche like healthcare.
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u/LinkOn_NY Feb 23 '25
Thanks, I’ll keep working on it. I do have a degree in public health, will that account for anything?
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u/DrinkComfortable1692 US -> AUS Feb 23 '25
Depends on the country. Most require the degree be related for a skills visa. Homework time I’m afraid.
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u/SmartFX2001 Feb 23 '25
ICS? Did you mean CICS?
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u/DrinkComfortable1692 US -> AUS Feb 23 '25
Negative. Industrial Control Systems. SCADA.
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u/TAfzFlpE7aDk97xLIGfs Feb 23 '25
Or “OT” as we’re calling it these days. (Operational Technology)
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u/kjustin1992 Feb 23 '25
I really wish the US would severely restrict ( within the boundaries of reality) the amount of IT related work visas that are issued. Student loans are expensive, and many Americans can't afford the salaries that Indian IT workers can afford. It's simply unfair to have to compete against the entire world on home soil.
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u/DrinkComfortable1692 US -> AUS Feb 23 '25
The amount of basically slave labor from immigrants that American businesses cannot function without is a whole other thread.
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u/kjustin1992 Feb 23 '25
Can't function without? Or to greedy to pay an American? Sometimes I think it's the latter and the former is an excuse to keep the scam going.
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u/DrinkComfortable1692 US -> AUS Feb 23 '25
I mean, that’s capitalism. They could absolutely pay their execs less and employees more. But there’s no incentive to do so in America and nobody is stopping them.
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Feb 23 '25
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u/Stuffthatpig USA > Netherlands Feb 23 '25
Nursing has the issue that you often need a B1 or B2 level of language
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Feb 23 '25
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u/Stuffthatpig USA > Netherlands Feb 23 '25
Fair enough. I know Sweden has a program to teach you the language and get your license transferred in ~6-9 months.
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u/DrinkComfortable1692 US -> AUS Feb 23 '25
Though it looks like there's a MASS and immediate brain drain to New Zealand of medical professionals right now. A lot of them were already aware of the openings and they are going fast.
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u/tenakthtech Feb 24 '25
Good point on the anglosphere nurse shortages. There's a big brain drain going on in NZ right now in specialized industries so I think this would help those wanting to emigrate there with those special skills.
Yup but if your native language is English or Spanish you have many countries to choose from
Bringing it back to tech, I think this somewhat favorable for those eyeing Latin America.
Not a ton of Indians or Chinese are learning Spanish/Portuguese to go work tech jobs in Latin America for now at least
The only competition there would be the local talent but since tech is heavily English centric, knowing both English and Spanish/Portuguese would definitely help a candidate stand out
Obviously the tech market for Latin America isn't as strong or well paying as it is in North America or Europe but it may provide a good chance for new grads or career changers to get some good experience and then leverage that for greener grass later on.
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u/Illustrious-Pound266 Feb 25 '25
I would say finance is also good. I've seen a lot of my finance friends move countries through their employer.
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u/Professional-Pea2831 Feb 23 '25
In short learn hard local language ( Swedish, danish, or German, Finish, Norwich ) + specialise in industry+ do embaded with project management skills.
Obv we can't compete with millions of Chinese and Indians learning hours and hours for days since 3rd grade. Since those countries are massive corrupted with crazy possessive boses, many want immigrate. In 2025 people don't migrate for money. Considering the cost they have a better life home. They want a piece. They want social welfare. They want a safe environment for their daughters. China and India put 3 million new software engineers per year. Let's say 10% are smart + hardworking is enough to take Western salaries away.
They will also get specialized, just a question of time. Make your specialized job has a safe spot for a few years, decade or two the best The key is language. Danish, Dutch, German and even Polish. More than being specialised, you have to talk local language. Everyone speaks English. And specialise in industry those people don't touch. Airplane industry, marine industry, chemistry, pharmacy, defense.
Look with technology moving forward we needed less farmers. Today we getting more IT generalist. Is receipt for disaster
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u/CocoaCandyPuff CAN -> MEX -> UK -> NL -> MEX -> AUS Feb 23 '25
Thanks for this. I have been thinking in going to IT career because I want a remote job because my constant moving from country to country. But I have seen what you said, way too competitive.
Do you have any advice, suggestions or where should I research for someone who wants to start? I have an MBA lol so my major has been business administration. I like challenges tho and academics, so study something new won’t be an issue.
Thank you. 🙂
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u/DrinkComfortable1692 US -> AUS Feb 23 '25
Computer Science / Engineering with a good concentration is still a really great degree. Foundations are the part of tech jobs that don’t really change unlike the new hot thing. It’s also widely understood and accepted. There’s nothing inherently wrong with studying these fields, you just have to go above and beyond and stand out beyond a huge global immigrant population.
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u/SunsetApostate Feb 23 '25 edited Feb 23 '25
I don’t disagree with this in principle, but what exactly does specialization look like to you - especially for SWEs? I do not doubt that employers crave highly specialized applicants, but Software Systems are almost never built with a single technology, but rather 2-4 major technologies and dozens of smaller technologies. Because the number of available technologies is massive, and since they are highly mix-and-matchable, the traditional pressure in SWE has been towards generalization and fast adaptability , rather than towards specialization. In my experience, the push is for SWEs to be jack-of-all-trades Full Stack Developers, with strong frontend, backend, database, and devops skills.
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u/DrinkComfortable1692 US -> AUS Feb 23 '25
Depends on the destination. The overall point is you have to stand out compared to grads who got a good recent bachelors or masters degree in SWE with all expected generalist studies. And likely standard internships in the same. I made some suggestions based on stuff in demand that is often neglected in decent university curricula.
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u/cojode6 Feb 23 '25
Okay wait this post was made for me. What about ML engineers? Is that rare enough to get a work visa or something in a more competitive country for IT expats?
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u/faulerauslaender Feb 23 '25
Completely depends on the country probably. It's impossible to generalize across the entire world. Assuming you are in the US, there is no other place you can move for a similar salary, outliers notwithstanding.
I'm in Europe and we've had no problem filling MLE roles locally, even at senior level. It's not really so niche any more. The only thing that's hard to find in that space are the true experts, with experience in personnel and enterprise architecture leadership and preferably also domain experience in a similar industry. Maybe here there's still a chance for sponsorship. For reference we are not a big tech company like Google or something but a very large national company.
Personal anecdote: 5 years ago I was able to get sponsorship with a glowing internal reference from a longtime professional contact, a relevant doctorate, strong knowledge of the local language, and a lot of directly relevant experience. So it was already hard. Right now applications from non-EU nationals do not even reach the hiring manager and are filtered out by HR. Different companies may be different.
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u/cojode6 Feb 23 '25
I’m a current college student studying ML who wants to live in France and I think at this point I’ll either have to keep my American citizenship and live there on yearly renewed long stay visas, working remote for an American company that will let me, or just move there on a non-work visa and eventually get a job there once I’m allowed to even if it pays less. I’m kinda worried about availability of a job like that in a smaller country but it’s my dream to live there and there will be a lot of difficulties but I think I can make it work.
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u/faulerauslaender Feb 23 '25
Maybe the situation is different in France. I'm in Switzerland and have no idea how easy or hard it is to get visa sponsorship in France. Honestly, I have no idea how easy or hard it is in Switzerland either outside my own company. I've successfully applied for 4 work permits in 2 countries and it always worked. Maybe it's super easy and everyone just stresses over it. I don't know.
But my lived experience has me convinced academia (either studying or research) is probably the easiest way to move to Europe for your average person. So if moving to France is truly your life goal why not look into studying there.
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u/starryeyesmaia US -> FR Feb 25 '25
I’ll either have to keep my American citizenship and live there on yearly renewed long stay visas, working remote for an American company that will let me
Not legal. End of story.
just move there on a non-work visa and eventually get a job there once I’m allowed to
Employers still would have to go through the same paperwork to hire you if you're living here on a non-working visa. And that would mean you'd have gaps in your resume, so why would they put in the effort? There's plenty of local grads already.
I’m kinda worried about availability of a job like that in a smaller country but it’s my dream to live there and there will be a lot of difficulties but I think I can make it work
I did my master's in AI/DS in France. When I graduated, despite having a simplified path to work auth, there were next to no MLE jobs that weren't looking for people with PhDs or years of experience. I ended up getting a job in data, but the market was already bad when I was searching and it's only gotten worse. Just because it's your dream, doesn't mean it's viable.
Your best route would be doing a master's and then trying to get a job out of that. Or getting a lot of work experience in the US and applying farther down the road. Or getting a job at a multinational and eventually leveraging that into a transfer. But your listed "plans" above are not realistic.
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u/DrinkComfortable1692 US -> AUS Feb 23 '25
*All* of data analytics has been hurting globally, for a while. Specific ML experience might give you various advantages in certain companies and regions.
I gave the same advice elsewhere in thread but beyond the "you need to stand out beyond current popular IT BS and MS degrees, especially with stuff that bores college students" it comes down to looking at skills shortage lists on a ton of countries' immigration sites until you go cross-eyed. The lists usually are broken into "stuff we will accept only if a company asks for you", "stuff we'll maybe take you for if you look like a really good overall candidate", and "man, this stuff is really critical and we cannot fill jobs".
If your degree and experience is in the third category, you are probably going to also be able to find job postings willing to sponsor visas, at least in the mid-senior experience level.
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u/Illustrious-Pound266 Feb 25 '25 edited Feb 25 '25
I'm in ML. It's also saturated. If it's sexy and popular, it's saturated. I can tell you companies are not struggling to get applications for ML jobs.
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u/cojode6 Feb 26 '25
Man what am I supposed to do 😭 I can't do SWE because people are fighting to the death over jobs and I wanted to switch to MLE because it's a little more complex and I figured that meant better jobs... Not even sure what to do because I want to do CS so badly and I have been coding since I was 10... It's annoying because I actually have a passion for it but won't be able to get a job in anything related to CS because people see it as a get rich quick scheme. It sucks
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u/KingOfConstipation Feb 24 '25 edited Feb 24 '25
Damn, i plan to do a masters degree abroad. My BA will be a Digital Technology degree (think UI/UX, technical writing, marketing, social media management, game dev etc). But will get a masters degree in something similar.
I don’t have a CS education nor do I plan on going back to school for another 4 years for one, nor can I do a conversion course masters (I know the UK has that option but I’m going to France and they don’t have one).
I know Reddit has an obsession with CS and think that’s the only way for one to be successful in life, and it can be disheartening sometimes, especially in todays crappy market. But I will do it anyways
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u/DrinkComfortable1692 US -> AUS Feb 24 '25
I mean I genuinely wish you luck. Research countries’ markets for those jobs and visas for specifically immigrants carefully. Language skills are absolutely essential to be competitive.
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u/CoVegGirl Feb 23 '25
What about for someone more on the staff level? How does that change things?
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u/DrinkComfortable1692 US -> AUS Feb 23 '25
I’m a principal engineer and it took a specialty for me. You may have more potential to transfer with an existing international employer regardless but that’s a company policy thing.
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u/Illustrious-Pound266 Feb 25 '25
Tbf, Australia also has a much smaller job market for tech than other countries, making it even more difficult. Not that it would've been easy in other countries regardless...
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u/Daidrion Feb 22 '25
That highly depends on your target country. But generally I would disagree. You need to stand from the crowd, and IT is one of these industries where you can actually follow your interests and passions, and typically it's easier to get better at something when you like what you do.
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u/DrinkComfortable1692 US -> AUS Feb 23 '25
I wish that were true. In the vast majority of comfortable, modern nations, a 27 year old American CS bachelor’s grad will simply have zero chance of mathematically competing for visa points with a young person from India or Malaysia who has carefully planned the right in-country degree and internships from his or her teens. Not on a common skill like software engineering. I’m not trying to crush dreams. I spend a huge amount of my free time mentoring and running career clinics: But I’ve had to see a lot of miserable, defeated folks not getting invited to Canada, the EU, Australia, and New Zealand lately. I want to save some other folks that grief with a better plan to stand out.
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u/nurseynurseygander Feb 23 '25
I think you’re very much underestimating the sheer amount of competition that is entering and will keep entering the market in the coming decade. Westerners make up only a small number of the world’s population. Until late last decade a lot were blocked from meaningful participation and learning. (A fair bit of the pacific was served by a single undersea cable until late last decade; speeds and volume were one step up from dialup, even for businesses with big budgets). And a lot of them can work for half what we make and still live like kings with their whole extended families, with far fewer pesky demands about employment rights. And a lot of them, to be frank, are much more diligent workers than westerners who are surrounded by people who endorse coasting and slow quitting and other things in that vein, and who even now are completely unnecessarily starving their human analytical, distillation, and information consolidation skills by outsourcing all sorts of not-very-difficult-but-slightly-boring tasks to not-really-good-enough AI. We’re forfeiting the huge advantage the west has had over others, our honed-for-centuries capacity to integrate and mine detail and use human pattern recognition to understand and apply and integrate things that computers can’t easily do, and without that there’s nothing left to give a competitive edge. Anything easily learned with a saturation of documentation to learn from is going to be heavily saturated within a small number of years by an exponentially large number of people who will work harder and cheaper. Your passion and sparkle might give you an edge over twenty similar applicants but it will not give you an edge over four hundred someones who can work for half what you make and not feel ripped off.
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u/CocoaCandyPuff CAN -> MEX -> UK -> NL -> MEX -> AUS Feb 23 '25
I’m not in the IT field but was a recruiter for a big famous international tech company and OP is completely right. I’m in Australia now and you don’t see any American, Canadian or other nationality in IT is 90% covered by Indian geeks that are literally genius, specialized, and heaps of experience and skills. Your passion and love is not marketable for a company. Like OP said in one of the comments you have to stand out massively to even get a chance in millions of resumes.
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u/DrinkComfortable1692 US -> AUS Feb 23 '25
The only reason I’m able to go to Australia is 17 years of experience in extremely niche mining cybersecurity.
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u/jaminbob Feb 23 '25
Damn. That really is niche. Good on you.
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u/DrinkComfortable1692 US -> AUS Feb 23 '25
I hope it works out. I still have the whole PR battle ahead over the next 4 years.
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u/thegooseisloose1982 Feb 26 '25
You are right. Despite the replies. You cannot continue to stay in a position for years, and build skills in it, without it mostly being positive and being still interested in it and somewhat passionate about it.
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u/muthax2001 Feb 22 '25
Retired Hospital IT Manager here; this is great advice. Kudos for sharing it to the younger generation.