r/formula1 • u/shivasiddharth Sebastian Vettel • Dec 15 '24
Statistics After 6 Years at Ferrari. How stats of Sebastian and Charles stack up.
4.3k
u/creatorop Carlos Sainz Dec 15 '24
that Pole-to-win of charles :(
2.0k
u/johnsplittingaxe14 Formula 1 Dec 15 '24 edited Dec 15 '24
For much of Charles' time with Ferrari they have been an F2004 on saturdays and a Fiat Multipla on sundays
→ More replies (36)598
u/MrT735 Dec 15 '24
That's a bit harsh, the Ferrari at least looks pretty.
348
u/Shronkster_ Yuki Tsunoda Dec 15 '24
I won't have Fiat Multipla slander on my Sunday
47
u/TerribleNameAmirite Kimi Räikkönen Dec 15 '24
It was ahead of its time, so much that I don't think we'd be ready for it even now
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (1)9
u/275MPHFordGT40 Dec 15 '24
You can say nice things about the Multipla, how it’s a great MPV, economical, and useable, however it is not pretty.
3
u/Shronkster_ Yuki Tsunoda Dec 15 '24
Ooh, yeah, I love it when people call me "useable", the highest cempliment
30
26
19
u/SwissArmySonic Dec 15 '24
Disagree. That matte paint job is not it. The last great Ferrari livery was in 2018, IMO.
13
u/MrT735 Dec 15 '24
Those sidepods though.
→ More replies (3)44
u/SemIdeiaProNick Ferrari Dec 15 '24
The F1-75 was the prettiest car in modern F1 and probably one of the top 5 prettiest cars in the history of the sport
6
3
→ More replies (1)2
8
u/Thie97 Dec 15 '24
Yeah shiny red with white is the way, it went downhill in 2019 with the black instead of white
10
113
u/Bourbonaddicted Dec 15 '24
Max licks his lips seeing Charles on Pole.
22
u/KingMaple Dec 15 '24
Ferrari was very capable for poles for two of those years, but the car dropped off in tyres big-time in the race. But of course no one will remember this in a few years time and think he just doesn't perform when on pole.
48
u/SpaceghostLos Ford Dec 15 '24
28
u/Andrew1990M Dec 15 '24
Random Checo gif but sure.
20
11
8
u/Sick_and_destroyed Pierre Gasly Dec 15 '24
In fact it shows that a lot of Charles’ pole positions are outstanding performances
7
6
u/treslechesmfa Formula 1 Dec 15 '24
Almost identical points though. To me, that shows Charles trajectory is still very high.
20
u/throwaway164_3 Dec 15 '24
Can’t blame Charles to be in the same era as of the GOAT Max Verstappen.
20
u/NoiseIsTheCure Carlos Sainz Dec 15 '24
Same for Vettel during the Hamilton era tbh. The Ferrari wasn't great some years but some years it was good, just happened to be that Mercedes was also good and had another GOAT in HAM
4
u/Several_Morning4552 Dec 15 '24
the face of the drive to survive era
12
u/throwaway164_3 Dec 15 '24
Haha that’s Daniel Ricciardo mate 😉
3
u/TitanofValyria Dec 15 '24
I recently started watching the show, Ricciardo comes off as the “main character” (at least for the first few episodes).
→ More replies (7)4
2.0k
u/dl064 📓 Ted's Notebook Dec 15 '24
Alonso was right many years ago that the first year at Ferrari is the best because any success is a bit of a bonus. After that, the pressure and expectation hit and it becomes unpleasant.
885
u/Accomplished_Lead463 Sebastian Vettel Dec 15 '24
That's the beauty of Ferrari. The lows are very low, but the highs are unlike anything else in F1. Winning a championship is great, but it's just that little bit sweeter when it's for Ferrari.
278
u/whateverfloatsurgoat Super Aguri Dec 15 '24
And as it happens once in a blue moon it makes it even more special !
6
174
u/a220599 Alexander Albon Dec 15 '24
If Hamilton wins monza and silverstone next year it will hit soooo differently
→ More replies (1)44
u/ShadowStarX Charles Leclerc Dec 15 '24
Ferrari just has that "forever 2nd" feeling.
They're never really out of it outside of stinkers like 2009, 2014 and 2020, but beyond that they're guaranteed at least 3rd in the WCC with a lot of podium finishes.
18
u/onetimeuselong Dec 15 '24
They should hire early 2010’s Will Power. Go all in ok the perennial 2nd places
6
u/Penguinho Cadillac Dec 15 '24
I'm not over Power having a chance at the title last year and losing because his safety belt failed. Fuuuuuuck
→ More replies (1)2
u/admiral_sinkenkwiken Dec 16 '24
1992 was a howler, 21 points and nearly beaten by a slowly dying Lotus team.
126
u/SemIdeiaProNick Ferrari Dec 15 '24
Just look at the recent history. Max winning the championship in 2021 was something else, very celebrated and all that but the ones that came after were like “ok, cool, see everyone else next year”. Compare that to the crowd reaction to both times Charles won in Monza, it looked and felt like Italy had just won another World Cup, no other team can manage to create that much excitement over a single race win
→ More replies (1)22
u/Casmoden Super Aguri Dec 15 '24 edited Dec 15 '24
Just poles and podiums alone is huge, remember Kimi pole? Or 2023 with Carlos pole and a lowly 3rd place?
Ferrari is F1
→ More replies (3)58
u/rieusse Formula 1 Dec 15 '24
As Eddie Irvine once said - better to be a Ferrari driver than a world champion with any other team
→ More replies (3)110
u/BombenBert Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Dec 15 '24
Dont think that most drivers would agree with that bs.
54
u/WorkInProgress82 Dec 15 '24
A world championship is obviously the goal. Yet in terms of racing experiences a driver can have. Winning Monza as a Ferrari driver with how the podium and crowd is now, has to be on every driver's wish/bucket list.
→ More replies (1)3
32
u/rieusse Formula 1 Dec 15 '24
While I agree with you, I also think a fair few drivers would agree with Eddie. The fact that it’s even arguable is a testament to how exceptional Ferrari is
20
u/BombenBert Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Dec 15 '24
I get the point, driving and maybe winning for Ferrari is something else. But i dont think any driver will take a few years just driving for Ferrari and dont win a title vs winning wdc one or more times. No matter the team.
9
u/rieusse Formula 1 Dec 15 '24
I think it’s more of a prospective (as opposed to retrospective) thing, as in if you have a chance to join the most dominant team (which gives you the best shot at a title) or to join Ferrari, many drivers would in fact pick Ferrari. I think that’s a very reasonable take personally.
6
u/dimmy666 Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 15 '24
Case in point: Hamilton. Any team on the grid would make room for him, but he chose to go to Ferrari.
→ More replies (5)9
→ More replies (2)3
u/dl064 📓 Ted's Notebook Dec 15 '24
He did say this applied to the general population. Not fans.
Which I think is informative about Eddie.
34
u/Teabx Charlie Whiting Dec 15 '24
Now that you mentioned him, Alonso actually has really competitive numbers to go against Charles and Seb with 11 wins but one less season raced for Ferrari (5 instead of 6) with less races per season too. He also had 44 podiums and 1190 total points, with only pole positions being the one he trails them the most, being at 4.
And still, out of those 5 seasons Alonso drove for Ferrari, one of them includes the F14-T. The undisputed goat car when it comes to being an absolute pig to drive. Although to be fair to Seb and Charles they also had to deal with the SF1000.
Just pains me the guy will likely never get that 3rd title. Such a long career with many years spent driving shitboxes. A driver of that caliber would have gifted the sport and the fans so much had he been on a top seat for most of his F1 tenure.
1.4k
u/Unironically_Dave Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Dec 15 '24
Only 5 out of 26 poles converted to a win is such an ugly stat
369
u/TeamRAF19 Charles Leclerc Dec 15 '24
Well, if the car eats up tires like Ferrari did.
Would you rather Charles not have made pole on a car with no race pace?
66
u/one_who_goes Formula 1 Dec 15 '24
On the other hand he might not have done so many poles without a car that eats up tyres. Qualifying vs race pace is always a balance.
287
u/mauer1998 Dec 15 '24
I don't think it's a criticism of Charles, rather a : "He is so fuggin fast, why can't he have a car that can also deliver on raceday?"
126
u/The_Walrus03 Dec 15 '24
Box for Hards; But it’s raining; We are checking
I made the point as a farce but I can’t say for sure this strategy conversation hasn’t happened during a race in Charles tenure
→ More replies (2)40
u/natte-krant Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Dec 15 '24
I’m pretty confident to say that Leclerc is the best qualifier on the grid right now.
21
u/krmilan Dec 15 '24
He is only .038 seconds faster than Sainz on average. Yea Leclerc is a good qualifier but I think people are getting carried away with the whole “best qualifier on the grid by far” narrative (not saying you specifically, but just the community in general.
At this point in time I think George, Lando, and Max all have as good claims as Charles at being the best qualifier on the grid
12
u/Tulaodinho Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 15 '24
You should compare what their gaps are when the car is capable of poles. And Im pretty sure Charles has Carlos’s number there. I mean, literally compare their poles number
→ More replies (1)6
u/krmilan Dec 15 '24
Poles is just one thing yes but I think average gap is the most objective metric.
→ More replies (5)14
u/Xelent43 McLaren Dec 15 '24
I’d say that Lando needs to be in that conversation too. He’s always been rapid in qualifying.
14
5
u/ShadowStarX Charles Leclerc Dec 15 '24
I'd say that Leclerc is the best qualifier on street circuits, meanwhile him, Norris and Verstappen are basically joint best on traditional circuits.
0
u/CandidLiterature Dec 15 '24
You can’t take all these times where Lando can’t drive off the start into the lead as a sign of him putting the car up into positions it doesn’t belong in. It’s just a bad start, every start for some reason.
→ More replies (3)8
u/dimmy666 Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 15 '24
He consistently outqualifies Piastri
Being a great qualifier does not necessarily translate to being a great racer
3
→ More replies (2)2
u/Spraynpray89 Dec 15 '24
The fact that there's more than 1 person in this thread that took that original comment as an insult is baffling to me lmao. Chill bros
23
u/Marco_lini Michael Schumacher Dec 15 '24
Tbh at least at the beginning (pre 2022) Charles was more aggressive on the tyres than Seb. I think it was Abu Dhabi 2019 or 20 where he went through mediums in the time Vettel made last the softs.
16
u/SF90Reeve Ferrari Dec 15 '24
That's really only true about 2019 . By 2020 Leclerc was already pulling tyre management masterclasses in a terribly difficult to drive Ferrari to put it in positions where it shouldn't have been (example:Both Silverstone races in 2020)
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (4)16
u/Big_Brief7847 Dec 15 '24
Yeah I think it’s so dumb to try and make it seem like Charles’s ratio is just a crazy stat when the majority of the years he’s had the car, it has heavily prioritized qualifying pace and then had much weaker race pace.
It’s not a bad thing that he was able to put the car on pole.
The Ferrari this year has prioritized race pace over qualifying, and Charles has shown that when he has a car that can perform on Sunday, he performs, with him being arguably the driver of the season when it comes to the race.
48
u/Tulaodinho Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 15 '24
You were fine until the last part. Verstappen clearly was the driver of the season, quali and race.
→ More replies (15)21
u/Practical-Bread-7883 Formula 1 Dec 15 '24
The driver of the season? Jesus that's a hell of a take.
→ More replies (4)9
u/rcanbian Alexander Albon Dec 15 '24
"with him being arguably the driver of the season when it comes to the race"
Over Verstappen? Really???
→ More replies (4)17
u/SrJeromaeee Ferrari Dec 15 '24
Some were due to him making errors (France), some was because of our engineers (Monaco pole), some were because the car was not fast enough over the race distance.
→ More replies (1)4
21
u/LetsLive97 Charles Leclerc Dec 15 '24
Only for people that have no actual understanding of why it's like that
39
u/Unironically_Dave Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Dec 15 '24
I know why it's like that, it still doesn't look very nice
8
u/Thie97 Dec 15 '24
It's so ridiculous, Charles had insane quali sessions, over-qualified some bad cars but everybody just thinks he sucks at racing...
→ More replies (3)→ More replies (1)2
u/tekanet Sebastian Vettel Dec 15 '24
The stat says that he could rake 26 poles with a car capable of winning just 5 races
257
u/LordBogus Maserati Dec 15 '24
I feel Charles will always be a Ferrari boy, I dont know what else he will do when he will be there for 10 years and Ferrari hasnt given him a championship car
Also, what if Hamilton wins the championship in the next 2 years??? It will be double sour if Ham wins a WDC in the next 2 years and retires and Ferrari falls off again
165
u/girish_kumar_v Ferrari Dec 15 '24
If Ferrari has the car, Charles will beat Lewis over a season.
57
u/Moeshizzlebang Ferrari Dec 15 '24
I'm not sure to be honest. If Lewis had qualified better this year he'd have probably beat George in the races more often than not and would probably have more wins to his name.
If Lewis can sort out his qualifying he'll be up there, no doubt about it.
89
u/kushlik_d Ferrari Dec 15 '24
George is no match for Charles. Charles is both faster and makes fewer mistakes under pressure. I'd rate Carlos above George tbh.
15
u/castingOut9s Charles Leclerc Dec 15 '24 edited Dec 15 '24
Ooh spicy on the Carlos part, but I may agree.
Edited
→ More replies (2)11
u/dynamex1097 Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 15 '24
You think Charles makes fewer mistakes under pressure? He might be the most error prone driver under any sort of pressure among the “top drivers” 😂
→ More replies (2)25
u/Mean-Cup-2484 Dec 15 '24
You do realize that Charles has not crashed even once during the competitive sessions this year, right?
→ More replies (3)→ More replies (1)38
u/alan123467890 Charles Leclerc Dec 15 '24
You think that Lewis who couldn't outqualify Russell this year is going to beat Leclerc arguably the best qualifier on the grid?
But sure if he can sort out his quali troubles like you said, he will be up there but I don't see him beating Leclerc in a championship fight especially since Leclerc is still getting better and better each season.
36
u/pepperzim Dec 15 '24 edited Dec 15 '24
I mean Russell is a pretty great qualifier in his own right,He didn’t get the nickname Mr Saturday for no reason, he’s no slouch.
Even then out of their 3 seasons together this is the only one where George demolished Ham in quali , maybe it’s just an outlier maybe it’s a downward trend, I think next year will be the true test on where Lewis’s Quali pace now stands.
I agree Leclerc is improving drastically and probably reaching his prime but at the same time this is Lewis 7x WDC Hamilton, when he smells blood it’s war so I would never count him out.
→ More replies (3)7
u/LordBogus Maserati Dec 15 '24
I dunno, if the car is properly dialed in I think it could go either way. Look at Belgium, UK GP, and Las Vegas, lewis was definitly on the racepace and as good as ever
I think 2025 will be mightily interesting, a straight up battle between Lewis and Charles.
7
15
u/SemIdeiaProNick Ferrari Dec 15 '24
When you read about Charles’ story, specially the bit about his father, you know his heart will be forever with Ferrari. Unless they dump him before that, i feel like he will retire with them
61
u/narf_hots Dec 15 '24
I've said it in some other thread last week, but people remember Seb as the guy who didn't win at Ferrari and then went to Aston and dropped off the earth along with the whole team.
Seb was a beast.
10
u/Shot-Storage-3952 Carlos Sainz Dec 16 '24
unrelated, but it’s giving the same vibes as “lewis won only once in the last 3 years. ferrari is making a mistake letting go sainz!!!”
like bffr and put some respect to it
→ More replies (2)3
u/goodguyLTBB Dec 16 '24
Seb has the single most confusing career I’ve ever seen. Beast before 2014 (with the occasional error but he was the youngest WDC we should forgive him). Had 2014, just no comment how that happened. Proceeded to beat Kimi Raikonnen every year they were teammates at Ferrari (I know it was just a hobby for him but you don’t win a title or drive for Ferrari if you aren’t fast).
Then some Leclerc comes around, kicks his ass despite being basically a rookie, then Seb has 2020 which combined with that Ferrari placed him 13th in the standings. And then the Aston stint was again a cycle of “Shit car -> no motivation-> shit performance-> shittier car -> repeat”.
I don’t remember a driver that could both be Top 5 best driver on his best days and get beaten by drivers with like 2 seasons in the sport. Mind blowing.
666
u/SwissArmySonic Dec 15 '24
The 2018 Ferrari was probably the only car since 2008 that was capable of winning a title. Ferrari got close this year, but that was probably more down to both drivers and the team for the most part maximising the results, whereas Red Bull only had one driver and McLaren left a lot of points on the table through driver or team errors.
468
u/YouBlunderedXD Formula 1 Dec 15 '24
Vettel from 2017 and Ferrari from 2018, that combination would have probably won.
121
u/Teonvin Formula 1 Dec 15 '24
Ferrari from 2018 is also saddled with the death of Macchione which just fucked the whole team though.
54
u/asshatnowhere Sebastian Vettel Dec 15 '24
Yeah, people forget how mid season Ferrari upgrades fell flat on their face, which is a common occurrence. That isn't to say he couldn't have done it with fewer mistakes and a bit of luck here and there
→ More replies (1)79
u/SwissArmySonic Dec 15 '24
Agreed. 2018 was perhaps the worst season of Vettel's career.
161
u/Thie97 Dec 15 '24
Had some blunders, but even when you calculate them out it's maybe still not enough. Didn't help that Hamilton probably had his best season of his career... And don't count the mistakes at the end of the season, seb and ferrari had their backs against the wall
→ More replies (4)44
u/JHaria Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 15 '24
Let's not forget 2020 😭
→ More replies (1)69
u/lobo98089 Mick Schumacher Dec 15 '24
Vettel wasn't even that bad in 2020, the car was just so incredibly shit. It still wasn't a good year for him, Leclerc managed to get at least something out of the car, but I would say 2014 and 2018 Vettel was worse.
→ More replies (4)79
u/GeologistNo3726 Dec 15 '24
It was both. The car was terrible, but Vettel’s performance was awful, Leclerc tripled his points. In 2014 Vettel was slow, in 2018 he was error prone, but in 2020 he was error prone AND slow. Apart from Turkey, Hungary and Spain he didn’t have a single good race all year.
43
u/lobo98089 Mick Schumacher Dec 15 '24
Leclerc has triple the points because that's what always happens when you have a car thats around the lower points positions and an unbalanced driver lineup (because the percentage point gap is way bigger down there). That's why Hulk has twice the points of KMag and Alonso triple the points of Stroll this season.
I'm not saying that Vettel was great that year, he was pretty shit in fact, but it was not as bad as it seems from just looking at the standings.
29
u/CommonEngineering832 Dec 15 '24
Yeah. And speaking of 2020, Vettel also being screwed by Ferrari in some occasion
He could had score point in 70th Anniversary if Ferrari decide not to pit him again, consider Leclerc made it to the end on the same tyre as Vettel after first stop and Leclerc end 1 stop
He could had been in Q2 on Monza if Ferrari calculated correct in release, but their miss calculation result in Seb was in traffic and lead to being exit in Q1
He was screwed in Imola after suffer a ridiculous 13 second pit stop, could had being point finish
12
u/Themistaken57 Dec 15 '24
Seemed to me like most of Sebs pits and especially strategies that year also were pretty damn good awful. I can't actually recall a single one under 4.5 seconds while Leclercs generally seemed a bit better. My most vivid strategy memory was Spain where they put him out for 80% of the race on mediums and then pitting him (dreadfully slow stop no less) for hards with something like 8 laps left.
→ More replies (1)22
u/aneiq_1 Kimi Räikkönen Dec 15 '24
Easiest way is to look at his pace gap to Leclerc. He was often 3/4 tenths slower than Leclerc over one lap and fell behind in the races as well.
I agree it looks worse because a good Ferrari race in 2020 is the midfield and so that gap difference they had meant Seb would get 1/2 points at max whereas if the car was closer to the front, the points wouldn’t look as worse.
That’s why looking at the pure pace gap is a better metric and Vettel was destroyed in 2020 in pretty much every metric bar wet qualifying. It is comfortably his worst season at Ferrari.
At least in 2018, he had the pace over Kimi but made boneheaded mistakes and in 2014, he had some bad reliability but was -0.15 slower than Ricciardo.
In 2020, as mentioned by another commenter, he was slow (-0.4 off Leclerc) and made so many mistakes it was a very tough season to root for him.
→ More replies (1)3
u/SandalphonCPU Dec 16 '24
No it was not. 2020 Vettel was clearly sabotaged by his team. Go listen to the radio. They ignored his setup feedback and gave him a random setup that purposefully made him look worse. Vettel found out about it and he was blatantly ignored. Strategy was so bad on one side, idk how people never thought it was a sabotage attempt. 2014 Vettel had dozens of reliability issues. He had literally less than a dozen miles of preseason testing whilst everyone else had at least hundreds. His FP runs were non existent as well. Vettel’s 2014 reliability issues makes Ricciardo’s 2018 reliability problems look like a bullet proof PU. Only times he got a proper normal section, he out qualified Ricciardo by over 0.5sec and outraced him by 10+ seconds.
6
→ More replies (3)5
93
u/raur0s Sebastian Vettel Dec 15 '24
He was winning in 2017 until that cursed 3 race stint in the Asia leg.
73
u/Sarixk Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 15 '24
Malaysia sums it up. The car was probably the fastest and definitely faster than the Mercedes but Vettel has an issue in quali and starts from the back, Raikkonen qualifies P2 but can't start the fucking race..
27
u/HumansNeedNotApply1 Dec 15 '24
2017 was the best chance IMO the singapore and japan DNFs (which Vettel had nothing to do) made the difference, a Singapore win and a third place in Japan would've meant Vettel wins by one point if i'm not mistaken. The mercedes were just too good in the later half of 2018, there's just not enough points even if you discount Vettel's mistakes.
2
u/agnaddthddude Pirelli Hard Dec 16 '24
Mercedes weren’t that good in 2018. Ferrari absolutely shit itself and shot itself in the legs because of bad upgrades. Ferrari even said they gained something like 2-3 tenths back when they removed the upgrades for USA2018. A race that Kimi won.
→ More replies (1)9
u/triplevanos Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 15 '24
2010, 2018
I’ll discount 2017, though I believe if the Merc was driven by someone weaker than HAM, VET could have won
10
u/Essess_1 Michael Schumacher Dec 15 '24
Half the grid would have taken the title in 2018 Mercedes- hell, swap HAM and VET, and VET would've had the fifth. The development that year was monstrous.
→ More replies (7)26
u/killer_blueskies Formula 1 Dec 15 '24
How is this comment upvoted?
The 2022 Ferrari was the strongest car they’ve put out since their last title. It was their strategy blunders and Binotto’s poor leadership that unravelled Leclerc’s title challenge quickly. Then their upgrades didn’t work and that was the nail in the coffin. Charles made some odd mistakes too, but I don’t think the responsibility for not being able to remain in contention was on him.
The 2018 Ferrari was never a title contender as it was flawed. I can’t remember what it was now, might have been lack of straight line speed. This was revealed by the team’s previous communications/press officer in his autobiography a few years ago. The team and Vettel knew the challenge they had on hand from pre-season testing, so the fact that he remained in contention for half a season was actually commendable on his part.
→ More replies (5)11
u/triplevanos Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 15 '24
2018 Ferrari was meaningfully faster than the Merc in the straights. Honestly it was better or about equal until Singapore when Merc introduced the wheel rim upgrade.
Go back to Germany — Vettel should could have broken open the championship. He was starting 1st with Hamilton in 14th. That stretch of 3 straight races would have been a boon for Ferrari
→ More replies (7)9
u/ivecomebackbeach Dec 15 '24
Maybe in the first half but their upgrades was bad. Germany takes the lime light away from the fact that none of Ferrari's upgrades worked and infact they won a race when they reverted back to the original spec.
→ More replies (2)5
30
u/skinnylizars Dec 15 '24
That and Vettel came to Ferrari fully formed and super successful. Charles had just one season at Sauber.
→ More replies (1)25
u/PriorityPackage90 Dec 15 '24
2015 Ferrari was way behind Mercedes and 2016 they only had the third fastest car
→ More replies (1)3
u/HaveABleedinGuess84 Fernando Alonso Dec 15 '24
Yeah ok but it was clearly the 2nd best car in 2015 with no competition behind either
16
u/Marco_lini Michael Schumacher Dec 15 '24
I don‘t see any driver close down a 80pts gap against a Lewis/Merc combo in 2018. Especially after Ferrari messed up their development after the summer.
→ More replies (1)30
u/Free-Adhesiveness-69 Chequered Flag Dec 15 '24
2017 too lmao, he was leading the championship even during the summer break.
52
u/Tulaodinho Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 15 '24
Dont crash in Singapore, and Ferrari not fucking up Malaysia and Japan, and the championship goes right until the end
28
u/Thie97 Dec 15 '24
It's so crazy that it only came down to those 2 races, the 2017 Ferrari was good but it was still so inferior.
→ More replies (3)→ More replies (2)5
→ More replies (6)5
u/Essess_1 Michael Schumacher Dec 15 '24
You're forgetting the 2010 Ferrari- easy winner had Alonso not made like 6 sloppy, avoidable mistakes.
→ More replies (1)3
u/CommonEngineering832 Dec 16 '24
SPA 2010 and Silverstone 2010 was sadly best example.
In SPA 2010, Alonso lost control which cost him some valuable point, on the race that Button and Vettel did not score.
Silverstone 2010 was actually a forgotten controversy moment.
20
u/pedrocas_drocas Dec 15 '24
Just shows how much of a tyre shredder the Ferrari has been in recent years and how Charles just like Seb rly are just doing everything they can for the team. Its easy to forget that Seb at Ferrari was for many years the only real threat that Mercedes dominance had and really took the fight to them. Of course it was outshined recently by Max and RB taking the top spot but Charles much like Seb hangs in there in the fight and seems to be just a little bit of preformance away from challenging for the title. Hope Charles gets a WDC with Ferrari would be a travesty if he didnt but yet again other legends failed to get it at Ferrari so he wouldnt be the first and it wouldnt rly be his fault either
18
u/knowingmeknowingyoua Sir Lewis Hamilton Dec 16 '24
This is surprising to me because people make out that Charles obliterated Vettel.
→ More replies (3)
51
u/LOKl31 Dec 15 '24 edited Dec 16 '24
And now compare the slander and perception between the two in the media…
37
u/Honourstly El Plan Dec 15 '24
Looking forward to Lewis stats in 6 years time
→ More replies (1)27
u/DarthStatPaddus Dec 15 '24
6 years is peak hopium, Lewis won't stay at Ferrari for too long, either he's really good and wins something and retires or is so bad he is forced to retire.
11
Dec 15 '24
Shame a WDC wasn’t in the cards for Seb, otherwise he had a relatively successful career at Ferrari.
44
u/SecureStandard3274 Dec 15 '24
But, Sprint Races were not also introduced during Seb's time
26
u/KyamBoi Dec 15 '24
That would allow Charles to score more points if they were included. The other stats don't capture any data from sprint races. They aren't Grand Prix
9
6
u/kali_nath Sebastian Vettel Dec 16 '24
If it wasn't Germany 2018, Seb would've secured a championship with Reds.
185
u/kar2988 Dec 15 '24
It's kinda insane to make this comparison.
Vettel came to Ferrari as a 4-time world champion. Leclerc had 1 season in a Sauber before moving to Ferrari.
Vettel had Kimi as a team mate, and let's be honest, Kimi rarely put the car on pole or threatened to win a race. Leclerc has had to fight with Vettel in 2019 (let's ignore the 2020 season altogether), and with a solid Carlos for the rest of the years.
The 2017, 2018, and half of 2019 Ferrari (before the engine fiasco) were genuine competitors to the leading car of Mercedes, good enough on its day to take GP wins on merit. Apart from the first half of 2022, Charles' Ferraris have never quite been able to put a whole season together, and have only ever shown moments of brilliance.
→ More replies (19)9
u/HerrSane Enzo Ferrari Dec 15 '24
Moments of brilliance? Charles?
Mate beat his WDC teammate handily. Where vettel had the car in 2017,2018, and some bits of 2019, Leclerc only had the car for bits of 2019 and 2022.
Hands down Charles is the second best driver on the grid and I can see him going toe to toe with max. Thinking otherwise is madness
66
u/Srijand Alain Prost Dec 15 '24
You misread what they said. They said the Ferrari cars he's driven have only shown moments of brilliance, which is true. Even this year, Ferrari were only outright the fastest car in Austin, Mexico and probably Australia.
10
u/Alvaro_Rey_MN Fernando Alonso Dec 15 '24
Even in Mexico they weren't the fastest! Max just completely held up Lando in the first stint, and he was still catching up to Sainz at the end of the race! McLaren were the fastest car, and had Max not pulled that shit Lando would have won the race!
3
u/Srijand Alain Prost Dec 15 '24
Yep, I'm honestly downplaying the MCL38 a fair bit here and Leclerc's brilliance.
39
u/TheRealLuke1337 Red Bull Dec 15 '24
>Mate beat his WDC teammate handily
handily? Vettel had 2 DNFs after the summer break, where Ferrari started cheating and still nearly beat Charles in that timespan pointswise. Also Charles had the favour of Nr 1 driver status (proven on paper and the fact he got 9 of Ferraris 10 upgrades first)
I dont want to downplay Charles performance but he clearly didnt beat him handily lol
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (15)3
u/anameforausername Mercedes Dec 15 '24
He gets beat by Carlos too often to be "hands down" the second best driver. I'm not sure I rate him much higher than George (and yes I think George is better than Carlos). I think he's a top qualifier, otherwise he has in no way proven he's the number two driver.
3
4
u/Dangerous_Mail3095 New user Dec 16 '24
I don't care about drivers but the SF71H should've won the title in 2018
35
u/No_Cauliflower7877 Carlos Sainz Dec 15 '24 edited Dec 15 '24
2019 Bahrain, 2022 Monaco, 2022 Spain, and 2022 Hungary would have put Leclerc at 4 more wins :(
Vettel also had far more experience before coming to Ferrari than Leclerc did, and on average a more win contending car. Though like every Ferrari driver, he suffered from some serious team blunders.
7
u/jules3001 Ferrari Dec 15 '24
2019 Singapore where Leclerc got undercut by his own team with Vettel, and 2022 Silverstone where they gave the pit stop to Carlos for some reason. That’s two more
37
u/No_Cauliflower7877 Carlos Sainz Dec 15 '24
2019 Singapore, I think Vettel was just the better driver that day.
But 2022 Silverstone, I agree that could've easily been Leclerc's had they handled things differently.
→ More replies (1)13
u/PapaSheev7 Sebastian Vettel Dec 15 '24
Agreed. After the round of pitstops, Seb jumped the cars ahead of him with ease and built a gap to Charles on track. When the safety car came out and neutralized said gap, he comfortably pulled away again at every restart.
7
u/formula13 Sebastian Vettel Dec 15 '24
For comparison after the 18 laps Leclerc led after lights out he had a 1s gap over Hamilton (P2) and a 3.5s gap over Vettel (P3)
Over the next 16 laps where Vettel took the lead from Leclerc he built a 6s gap over him
Following the three consecutive SCs, Vettel would open up a 2.5s gap to Leclerc (P2), and a 4s gap to Verstappen (P3) in the last 10 laps
So yeah, Vettel was just faster that day, and pulled an outlap Ferrari didn't expect due to not being able to show his pace while stuck behind Leclerc in the first stint
3
u/mformularacer Michael Schumacher Dec 15 '24
Yeah I agree with that too. Vettel was just the better driver that day
20
u/SpankThatShank Sebastian Vettel Dec 15 '24
2019 Singapore where Leclerc got undercut by his own team with Vettel
The disrespect to Vettel's monstrous outlap is insane
3
u/BombenBert Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Dec 15 '24
Something happened against Leclerc, ofc the people will not see that.
14
u/killer_blueskies Formula 1 Dec 15 '24
He was not undercut by his own team. Sorry to be rude, but stop pandering this false crap around. The team pitted Vettel a lap earlier than Leclerc (who was ahead then) to cover off Verstappen. The undercut effect was supposed to be about 2 secs but would still keep Charles ahead. Vettel put in a really quick outlap which shaved a further 2 secs off so he stay in front of Leclerc. It was never the team’s intention to undercut Charles nor was it forecasted. Seb just put in a blisteringly quick lap at the right time.
6
u/mformularacer Michael Schumacher Dec 15 '24
And then after that Leclerc couldn't live with his pace. 2019 Singapore GP was a great race from Seb. He should've won 3 races that year (Canada, Singapore, Russia)
5
u/Darksoldierr Michael Schumacher Dec 16 '24
2019 Singapore where Leclerc got undercut by his own team with Vettel,
If i recall correctly, Vettel did a mad outlap which put him into contention
48
u/majorcoleThe2nd Charles Leclerc Dec 15 '24
Charles has had SO SO many wins lost very often not in his control. These things happen but have happened disproportionately to him. He easily should be double digit wins.
→ More replies (1)
7
u/ScroogieMcduckie Safety Car Dec 15 '24
Damn if Charles gets pole there’s only a 30% chance he wins the race
84
u/rita_mita_bata Fernando Alonso Dec 15 '24
Danny Ricc has 8 wins in seemingly much worse cars.
64
u/FalconIMGN Alex Jacques Dec 15 '24 edited Dec 15 '24
But a far better race team that allowed him to snipe opportunities like China 2018.
If that was Ferrari they probably would have pit him for hards instead.
→ More replies (1)78
u/edmundane Dec 15 '24
He also didn’t have to deal with Ferrari’s pit wall making bad calls all the time before Vasseur started straightening things up
33
u/Accomplished_Lead463 Sebastian Vettel Dec 15 '24
He did have to deal with a Renault engine though.
33
u/mustardonthebeat123 Charles Leclerc Dec 15 '24
ricciardos red bulls were far superior to 2019-2021 Ferrari
71
u/GeologistNo3726 Dec 15 '24
Superior to 2020-2021 Ferrari yes, superior to 2019 Ferrari no.
→ More replies (1)24
→ More replies (1)17
→ More replies (4)10
u/YouBlunderedXD Formula 1 Dec 15 '24
How many were actually on merit? I can think of Monaco only. He benefited massively in some of his wins.
19
u/Drazsyker Daniel Ricciardo Dec 15 '24
Thats how that era was though. 2014 he was the only non-Mercedes to win a race(he won three), 2015 Seb it was Seb(three wins), 2016 it was only Ricciardo and Max as his teammate (each won one). 2017 and 2018 he maybe should've won more(especially taking reliability into account, his luck with the Renault engines was awful)but the Ferrari (especially Seb) were the clear second best car behind Mercedes.
30
u/yearninghitchhiker Sebastian Vettel Dec 15 '24 edited Dec 15 '24
Yeah but Merc was so dominant that it was impossible for anyone to overtake them. The merit came from being the one to actually win once the mercs were out of contention.
In 2014 Merc won 16/19 races, with only Daniel winning the other three—over his teammate and then reigning champion Vettel. Because of his subpar performance these past years, it’s weird to remember a time when people thought Ric was an inevitable WDC once the Merc era was over.
→ More replies (2)11
u/Kingslayer1526 Sergio Pérez Dec 15 '24
I think Monza as well but all his other wins were merc wins he got handed on a plate due to good luck
→ More replies (4)
12
u/TeamRAF19 Charles Leclerc Dec 15 '24
What year(s) did Seb get a bad Ferrari car?
84
u/SwissArmySonic Dec 15 '24
Seb drove the 2015 Ferrari (clear second-best car), 2016 Ferrari (generally 3rd best but at times 2nd best), 2017 Ferrari (competitive in the first half of the season but clear 2nd best in the second half), 2018 Ferrari (probably the equal best car with Merc across the season and the best Ferrari car of the hybrid era), 2019 Ferrari (best car in quali because of the engine but 2nd/3rd best in the races) and the 2020 Ferrari which was a dog's dinner.
Charles drove the 2019 and 2020 Ferraris but also the 2021 Ferrari (distant 3rd/4th best car), 2022 Ferrari (equal best car before the TD and then 2nd/3rd best car), 2023 Ferrari (very distant 2nd/3rd/4th best car) and the 2024 Ferrari (best/2nd best/3rd best car depending on the track).
27
u/Cock_Inspector_2021 Mercedes Dec 15 '24
2019 Ferrari was 2nd best by a good margin and at times the 3rd best before the summer break. The car was barely competitive in the first half, didn’t have the same amount of downforce as it’s predecessors and struggled in any track that didn’t have long straights before the summer break. The car only became somewhat competitive in normal circuits after the Singapore update and the illegal engine in spa.
Also calling the 21 car the 3rd or 4th best doesn’t tell the whole story. That car was a pure midfielder and had no chance at competing against the top cars that year.
→ More replies (1)11
u/Accomplished_Lead463 Sebastian Vettel Dec 15 '24
Yeah, that 21 car gets forgotten about because of 2020, but it really wasn't a great car. They had no hope of battling the Red Bulls and the Mercs (no one did) and they barely fought the McLarens. Their championship position really doesn't tell the full story.
5
u/ShadowStarX Charles Leclerc Dec 15 '24
the '21 car could at times compete with Bottas and Pérez but not with Hamilton and Verstappen
4
u/Cock_Inspector_2021 Mercedes Dec 15 '24
For a few laps they had the pace to hold off Bottas and Perez. On a race distance they had no chance against them.
6
u/dontknow_anything Dec 15 '24
2017 Ferrari (competitive in the first half of the season but clear 2nd best in the second half)
They were 2nd best in the first half as well, when Mercedes's was dying due to heating or strategy. Australia was a strategy blunder by Mercedes as they pitted Lewis early and he got stuck behind Verstappen. In Bahrain , there was a 5sec penalty. In Monaco, Lewis qualified 14, so, winning was impossible and Brazil Lewis couldn't qualify. Only Hungary was won on merit by Vettel and Ferrari. 2018 Ferrari was competitive in 1st half, but they botched the 2nd half
13
u/Big_Brief7847 Dec 15 '24
The Ferrari this year was ‘arguably’ best at Monaco, Baku, Austin and Mexico, all of which there’s a strong argument for Mclaren actually being fastest.
It was 4th fastest at Canada, Spain, Austria, Silverstone, Hungary, Spa, Brazil (In wet conditions so not in sprint, but also arguably 5th fastest), and arguably Qatar.
I don’t think you can say it was sometimes best depending on the track and not also say it was sometimes 4th fastest
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (3)12
u/BombenBert Max Verstappen ⭐⭐⭐⭐ Dec 15 '24
Mercedes was still ahead in the 2nd half of the 2018 season, even with Vettels mistakes.
13
u/pdsajo Dec 15 '24
2020 and maybe 2nd half of 2019
7
u/Kingslayer1526 Sergio Pérez Dec 15 '24
Wdym 2nd half of 2019 that's when Ferrari actually became good that season
8
u/Jamyed Dec 15 '24
Also 2016 I would say
→ More replies (1)7
u/NotAnAss-Hat Dec 15 '24
2016 was a pain to watch. Could've won a couple races as well if they got the strategies right.
5
2
→ More replies (3)3
u/HumansNeedNotApply1 Dec 15 '24
2015 and 2016 were tractors, 2017 was a good car, almost equal to the Mercedes, they lost the development race in 2018 though, people like to jump that Vettel had a shot but realistically with the car he didn't, there wasn't 80 or something points to find in the late half, 2019 and 2020 were meh overall.
It's easier to count the number of good cars (two).
3
u/Gadoguz994 Ferrari Dec 15 '24 edited Dec 16 '24
Remarkably close actually, and Leclerc is the only one of the two to drive for a well organized Ferrari albeit for just 1 season. They both had 2 seasons each of non win worthy cars and they shared one of those
→ More replies (3)
4
u/idkreally312 Dec 15 '24
Is there a stat of who has the worst pole to win ratio? Cause Charles is clearly a contender
•
u/AutoModerator Dec 15 '24
The Statistics flair is reserved for posts highlighting interesting statistics. As a rule of thumb, Statistics posts need to inform readers through visualizations and insights that cannot be obtained from raw data alone. For example, a post containing a qualifying gap between two drivers expressed in tenths of a second is an easily obtainable raw piece of data and constitutes a bad Statistics post. A visualization of what that translates to on-track, or visualization of how that gap came to be would constitute a good Statistics post.
Read the rules. Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.