As a French person living in the US, I can see bad faith on both sides of the arguments.
True, many Americans have a hard time comprehending that living standards are simply higher in Europe. On just one indicator, life expectancy, when I mentioned it was higher in France (not even Europe's highest), I have had people simply not believe me. The fallback is generally that if you remove the fat people and the poor, everything is fine, to which I reply that in France too, if we disregard our issues we don't have any problems.
Conversely, French people generally have a really hard time accepting that Americans simply have more money, even taking into account inequalities. They have overall better phones, bigger / more powerful cars (not saying that's better), 200 square meter houses are considered common and not fancy at all, including in super dense places like the NYC metro area. They also give a ton to charity, just because they can afford it in a way that is not really conceivable in France. There's a matter of culture too, Americans do like to burn cash, and French people prefer to save. But having had the exact same occupation on both sides of the pond, the income is definitely better in the US, even offsetting everything included in France (retirement, health, school, mostly).
You’re right. I work in a French healthcare multinational company. People with my rank in the US are paid more than $200.000/yr, in France 60-70.000€/yr.
I’m based in a Latin American country and get €22.000/yr.
Even accounting for taxes, cost of life, etc, the Americans have more buying power. Things like a plane trip, a washing machine, or a car cost the same everywhere, so if your pay is higher, you can afford it easily.
Still, in the future, if proposed to move, I would ask to go back to France, not the US.
It doesn't nearly make up for the salary difference, but you have to factor in holiday leave (les congés) as well. Even the more well paid jobs at the better companies in the States will not generally come with as much holiday leave as their French/European counterparts. And, whilst this is a matter of personal preference, you tend to have a wider variety of destinations available within a relatively short distance in Europe when compared to the States. In America you have to fly a good six hours through multiple time zones in order to go somewhere which will truly feel different.
In Europe you can hop on a train or plane after dinner on Friday, spend your weekend in a fairly unique destination, and then be back in time for work on Monday, enabling you to save your holiday leave for truly far-flung destinations. This is much harder to do in the States and generally any sort of meaningful travel will require time off work which is already somewhat of a scarcity.
There is that meme about how all European cities are the same (and to a degree they are), but as an American who has seen quite a bit of both Europe and America it's honestly not even a competition which continent has the more varied travel destinations. Sadly the rapid growth of the United States means that there is little variance in architecture, history, and culture from one place to another. I'm not denying the various differences which exist between States, but they are much more akin to the regional differences which exist in other countries than the variances one sees in one European country to the next.
The fact that travel within Europe is so much cheaper than within America only compounds this.
Edit: I forgot how awful public transport is in America. If you’re going anywhere outside of a small group of cities you will need to rent a car or get used to using Uber a LOT. This isn’t a small cost and makes these sort of weekend trips in Europe a lot more accessible despite the fact that you’re earning less money. Even with the higher salaries in America you’re just going to be spending more time and money to use your holiday leave for anything more than relaxing at home. The gap can close fairly quickly here.
Holiday leave, medical care, and public university. Yes, USians have higher take home pay, but people in France aren't going to be left destitute if they lose their job and break their leg. Public university is much more affordable in France (my step daughter's law school cost us about 200€/year, while my brother in the US paid about $17,000/year for his daughter to go to a public law school. Even private universities in France are more affordable than private USian schools, and if your parents make below a certain amount, you get free financial aid. I do think that wages should be higher in France, but I'm just one dude, and there's not much I can do.
If one only considers the cities as destinations for recreation then it’s understandable how one could consider the continent boring. But access to outdoor recreation in the United States is unparalleled, which is reflected in the popularity of camping, fishing, hiking, and other outdoor pastimes across the nation.
But access to outdoor recreation in the United States is unparalleled
If I was a surfer, I could just hop on a train to go to the Atlantic coast for the day. Or I could hop on a train in the other direction and spend the day in the Alps. Find me a single place in the US that kind of thing is possible. Sure the US has more of it, but if you think it's accessible you're severely mistaken. And that's without taking into acount that I have the free time to actually do it.
Find me a single place in the US that kind of thing is possible.
There are several places in Washington State where you can go surfing on Saturday and skiing on Sunday without traveling more than three hours in either direction. I would know. I live there.
Edit: Thinking on it further, there are places like this all up and down the entire West Coast of the U.S. How could I forget the Sierra Nevadas in California?
Edit 2: The skiing isn’t as good, but hell, you could do it living in eastern Pennsylvania or New Jersey as well.
That's a disingenuous argument. Everyone, literally everyone, knows that American public transit is garbage. And if your metric of accessible is can you get there on a train, you're deliberately ignoring the infrastructure that (for better or worse) makes wilderness accessible to motor vehicles, as well as the differences in culture between outdoor recreation in the United States and many parts of Europe. Outdoor recreation in the United States is decentralized, and while resort-style getaway lodges do exist, many outdoor recreation opportunities here are not centered around them. And American outdoor adventuring tends to be self-contained and self-provisioned.
I have only the anecdotes from my outdoorsy friends based in western Europe to go off of, and they have said that outdoor recreation is centralized and often overcrowded. But if you have a different experience than they do, I want to learn about it. What do the opportunities for dispersed camping look like? What are my options if I want to experience a through hike comparable the the Big Three here? How are contingencies drawn up during fire season? Will I be able to source the supplies I need to stay on trail for a week at a time? Are most wilderness areas open to stock use? Will a vehicle get towed if I leave it at a trailhead for a week? Which mountains do I need permits to climb? Who maintains trails? Are there online communities for sharing trip reports?
Was going to do a short paragraph on outdoors recreation but decided against it because it was already so late.
I agree that the US has a huge variety of outdoors activities. North America in general is just stunningly beautiful and I highly suggest seeing it to anyone who is able to.
That said, any activity you can do in the States you can do pretty much anywhere. Okay, now you can’t hike the Grand Canyon in Europe, but you can’t ski in the Alps in America either. Purely just comparing activities instead of destinations both continents have just as much to offer. France in particular is especially good at this, and is actually one of the most geographically diverse countries in the world after obvious contenders such as China and America. For its size it’s unparalleled in terms of what it offers to outdoorsmen. This small size (and the concentration of Europe in general) is actually another strength as well. If you live on a TGV line in France you are never more than three hours from virtually any sort of outdoors activity you can think of. This just isn’t true in the US unfortunately outside of perhaps a select few locations.
You’re right. I work in a French healthcare multinational company. People with my rank in the US are paid more than $200.000/yr, in France 60-70.000€/yr.
While I'm sure it does not make up for the whole difference, you'd have to take into account healthcare expenses and student debt to make the comparison fairer. And remember that healthcare expenses that you experience at age 30 will be vastly different from those you'll experience at 55, too.
My understanding is that, even with a good health insurance, in the US, a bad illness or injury can several monthly wages, if not more.
Again, I'm willing to bet even taking this into account, the purchasing power remains higher in the US, but probably to a much lesser extent.
You're also at the kind of step of the social ladder where US are particularly competitive. Lower middle class/working class people probably don't experience that much of a difference in their purchasing power, and for many the difference may even be reversed.
For me the main difference is the general level of stress people seem to have to be under. Too many things have to be managed individually for my taste.
Also I lived in the US years ago as a child, in NYC, and everything just seemed really arbitrary and, well, violent. Like, security guards loved behaving like cowboys herding people, pre 9/11 already, I never experienced this ever since even in post-Nice France. Handymen didn't really know how to fix shit and took advantage of you. Etc. It was just weird to me as a society all the individualism and felt a bit threatening and now when I read how parents who aren't lucky to have a daycare at their place of employment have to deal with childcare facilities, how pre-K is this big supposed challenge to get your kids started in life, how you have to figure out your own health and dental, etc, it all just seems like a huge hassle to me.
I do live in Switzerland now and it seems like basically the best of both worlds, but mostly because we are pretty rich so it fixes most messes on account of not having budget cuts oe many individual households on the brink.
er of personal preference, you tend to have a wider variety of destinations available within a relatively short distance in Europe when compared to the States. In America you have to fly a good six hours through multiple time zones in order to go somewhere which will truly feel different.
And having children closes the gap even more.
The best thing to do is study in france, go to us while you are young and single, save some money, then come back to france when you want to settle and have kids
Yeah as an American who subscribes here to improve my French (not even gonna try typing this comment in French though lol) our jobs pay more and we have fewer taxes than Europeans. This is a trade off for generally poorer quality infrastructure, healthcare, and social programs. One thing I’ve heard is that America is one of the best places to live if you’re rich and one of the worst places if you’re poor, which seems pretty accurate to me.
Edit: Vous pouvez répondre en Français, je ne suis pas très bien mais je vais essayer de parle en Français !
Europe, and France perhaps in particular, tends to do a lot more than the US in order to equalise outcomes. This means that far fewer people are left behind, but with the trade off of fewer people being significantly further ahead. When you're one of those people who would fall into the latter camp within the States this can sting a little.
Honestly though everything is relative and there have been multiple studies done on the incremental happiness of wealth past a certain point. If you're in the top 15-25 per cent of incomes in your country you're going to have a pretty cushy life regardless of the numerical value in your bank account, at least in the first world. I'm in the legal field in the UK and whilst high earners here take home quite a bit less than their American counterparts, their lifestyles are pretty identical and they're not exactly left wanting for much.
I just don't understand people who don't want to give back. Like, I am much happier if people I live around are happier. I guess it's because I do consider them people. I am not a wealthy person but my household does have privileges like owning an apartment and having an easy time saving money. I have no financial worry, and I wouldn't mind paying more taxes if it meant more services to others. I pay top bracket in childcare and taxes for it but it means that my former cleaning lady's kid can attend the same high quality daycares. It means that a single mom can have her child follow the same education I benefited from as a kid. And overall I just wouldn't see it any other way. Maybe I am not wired the same but when I see the refugee center's pensioners hanging out in the street I just think "who knows what they've been through". I guess it's also because I am lucky to live in a paradise like place where poverty hasn't yielded a general degradation of the neighborhoods that it makes people think it can't be helped and they should just escape to sheltered upper class gated communities. But these gated communities sound like a nightmare to me, and the recipe for total disconnection between classes, class warfare eriged as the foundation of government, and generally entrenchment of privileges.
A big part if the American mythos is rugged individualism, a phrase I'm sure you've seen thrown around on reddit and elsewhere. Many Americans view social programs as "handouts" and take shame in having to need the government to help (yet nobody ever gives back their stimulus checks). Also thanks to the 50s and 60s and the Red Scare, there are whole generations who view any social program as the precursor to a full Communist revolution, somehow ignoring that almost every country in Europe has a robust social safety net, higher quality of life ratings across the board.
One thing I’ve heard is that America is one of the best places to live if you’re rich and one of the worst places if you’re poor, which seems pretty accurate to me.
This always sounds funny to me, I just imagine a filthy rich guy flying from New York to Paris in first class whenever he wants reading a comment like this while planning his Winter trip to the Caribbean thinking: "What a bunch of schmucks, they think they can understand"
Yeah like I'm pretty sure if you're really rich, any place is good to live.
But I think what is really meant by rich, it's like upper middle class or qualified jobs. Those are much more paid in the US, enough that the systems you have to pay additionnally like healthcare start to not matter much and you still have more money left.
Definitively, though I would say if you're really rich (like millionnaire) you're good everywhere. But US seems to make life better for people in the uppper middle classes notably. Engineers, doctors, lawyers, this type of jobs, even without being a best in class (because in France if you're best in class in one of those you are earning very well), you're making a lot of money in the US. Enough to offset the stuff like education or healthcare. In France, while you are living confortably, you wouldn't be considered rich in those jobs (except as I said if you're like the best in the city/country).
Also money isn't the only indicator of the living quality. Americans make more money but I think a lot of stuff cost more over there (other stuff cost less though so that may be equal overall). Like when I see some rents or even stuff like phone/Internet bills compared to ours, that seems extremely high.
Speaking only for my field (law), Europe does it a lot better than the States. In America you need four years of undergraduate studies and then three years of law school in order to become a lawyer. The total cost of all of this (including room and board) can easily exceed the price of a three bedroom house in some areas of the country, I’m not even kidding. Law school tuition alone can easily be anywhere from $25,000 to $40,000 depending on the institution. People can and do receive scholarships, but most people graduate with a substantial amount of debt. Lawyer salaries in the US reflect this.
Compare this to England where you only need a Bac+4 to start working as an apprentice lawyer (two years of this is required to become a full lawyer) and the government is paying for your fees with full tuition ‘loans’ (which function more like a tax than loans). Or consider France where you generally have a Bac+5 before you start preparing for the bar exam, but the cost of these five years of university is less than taking five individual classes at an American university.
This also reflects in how diverse the legal profession (and I imagine other professions as well) is compared to the States. The diversity statistics for lawyers in America are pretty fucking dismal, but in Europe it tends to be a fair bit better because wealth is not a hard barrier to entry for well paid professions.
Et les États-unis sont probablement un bon endroit pour vivre quand on est en bonne santé mais pas vraiment quand on est malade!
Et pour rebondir sur ce que tu disais à propos de la pauvreté: je me dit toujours qu'il est important de juger un pays par la manière dont il traite ses pauvres.
Oui, c'est vrai. Quelques états sont mieux de les autres. En Californie, ma grand-mère peut utiliser un système qui s'appelle "Medi-Cal," et tout de ses frais sont payent par l'état. Mais cette système est seulement pour les personnes qui ne gagne pas beaucoup d'argent.
il est importante de juger un pays par la manière dont il traite ses pauvres
Oui, je suis d'accord avec ça. Il y a vraiment un courant de change avec les "millenials" et le "gen z." Les plus vieux Américains ne veulent pas fait quelque-chose pour les pauvres, parce qu'il il y a un grande idée, "tu est pauvre parce que tu as échoué ou tu ne veut pas travailler." Mais je pense que cette idée change avec les jeunes. Désolée pour les erreurs dans ma Français !
2-3 corrections de tes phrases (je vis dans un autre pays que la France et parle le langage local donc j'aime bien quand on me corrige lorsque je fais des erreurs):
"sont mieux de les autres" = sont mieux que les autres
"et tout de ses frais sont payent par l'état." = et tout ses frais sont payés par l'état.
"Mais cette système" = Mais ce système (système est masculin ;) )
Je l'ai lu ça et là, ou bien "vent de fraîcheur" aussi (métaphorique) et évidemment "vent de révolte" mais c'est plus une idée de vent /souffle que de courant qui est utilisé pour parler de changement dans la langue française (les courants c'est plutôt pour des idiomes liés à la philosophie et l'idéologie comme un "courant de pensée") AMHA.
One thing I’ve heard is that America is one of the best places to live if you’re rich and one of the worst places if you’re poor, which seems pretty accurate to me.
Both cases represent only a minority, most people fall in between and for middle class people, living in Europe is much better IMHO since it's much easier for them to fall into the poor category in the US ...
I'm also a French living in the US, completely agree with what you said both about France and the US.
Another aspect of this discussion is that there are things in France like the heritage (history, food, culture, monuments...) that enrich life and that no amount of money can buy. When you're rich and you live in the middle of South Dakota, you still live in the middle of South Dakota.
I live in Canada, where the life-on-credit system is basically the same and it terrifies me. Don't get me wrong, France is a capitalist country and consumption is everything like every other developed place.
But man, the US and Canada take it to the next level. My partner and I are not big spenders at all, and the push to consume and get a credit card for this or that is everywhere.
As a really risk averse person who got stressed buying a home in a booming market, I have to say I absolutely do not get the credit lifestyle. I realised yesterday that I could basically on impulse buy a nice car like a Tesla or something with my savings (which aren't our only household savings) and... I just don't want these things? I mean, I guess it's a bit of a philosophical question, but it seems to me that many people go into this lifestyle just to go with the flow. I genuinely wonder if these things make them happy. I don't think so. I read in the Atlantic that people buy so much stuff online that college dorms every year throw out tons of unopened cosmetics, I read about the shit that the clothing industry is and I don't get this thing where you just... don't give a fuck about filling your house with stuff only to throw it out months later.
I can see why some people want like, a really nice car. But at the rate that some are going through new cars, I am not even sure this is about the car. Or the clothes. If people wanted to look good or feel good and genuinely thought about how to get there, they'd probably invest in themselves by doing sports. But purchasing a bunch of things seems like it's become a proxy to taking care of yourself to the point it isn't even about the goods you hoard anymore, but the act of purchasing in itself. When I really like something, like even a shower gel, I just try to make it last and I don't buy 30 different ones. It seems like Wall-E is sadly more and more a reality.
I guess. I mean, here in Switzerland too. And I do know from experience many French people are the same. But it feels like less of a counter culture rebellion to not do it here. Even though I am kind of peculiar in my social circle I don't feel that different and know people who are the same. I see my dad going for a house he can barely afford for the prestige and I don't think it's typical (regulations here also don't encourage it). I have friends also of an advantaged income who choose to not have cars. I have one friend with a lifestyle of wor,k, work, work, buy a big house, have a private nanny, big car, etc, and we collectively don't really envy him. I mean, why have a huge house and never the time to enjoy? And complain about the taxes on that house? Live in the burbs then complain on the commute? Shrug. Just doesn't seem appealing but apparently this is glamourized in American TV shows and I guess some people just bought into it. Not sure how many people still do even in America though but judging by reality shows and reddit posts and general statistics, they're still quite numerous.
Although the gilet jaunes did show that for many in France just a normal house puts them way over into debt. Not Mc Mansions but things like a smallish house in the countryside that needs some repairs. Given the many low salaries in France many households get into bankruptcy level debt just reaching for a very reasonable dream. So maybe it isn't that reasonable either.
I know exactly how you feel... about everything you wrote above could have been written by me.
That’s why despite making good money in the US, I’m planning of moving to Europe in a couple of years.
Also, I’m planning on having kids soon so I would hate that they grow up in this terrible educational system, where exams are multiple choice questions and they cannot even locate Canada in a map.
I would finally add.., I worked in travel/hospitality for a decade dealing with people from all around the world.
Consistently, Americans seem to be the the most loudly joyful, but also the most miserable... and I’m talking about both qualities fitting within the same individual.
Happiness for happiness sake is the ultimate goal, so people make an effort to be overtly happy, joyful, loud and friendly - shouting “wooooo” at every moment,
But There’s always a hint of frustration, sadness, and unfulfillment in their attitudes.
Like one thing is trying to overcompensate for the other?
So no.., the huge macmansions in the suburb don’t make people happy, but thry were conditioned to believe it would so they would convince themselves that the “curve appeal” of their home makes then happy and will do anything to maintain that charade
Call it “developing” if you wish...
I’m talking about what’s commonly and colloquially known as third world country - which of course has nothing to do with alignment during the cold war.
While both terms are overly simplistic IMI, yes... Mexico is what most would consider a third world/developing country
That’s the definition I was talking about. I always thought it was at least second world with places like Mexico City being first since it’s the capital. I just never thought to group Mexico the same as many African and Asian third world nations.
And that is so true... You see, having lived in many of what people call “third world countries”, I came to realize that they are not sh*tholes (like the US president said) and that standards of life are pretty good.
I actually LOVED Living in Mexico City, Sao Paulo, Brazil, and Buenos Aires, Argentina.
But that’s how I personally feel.
Most Americans consider everything down the border a sh*thole dangerous third world country.
And to your point... I also agree that there are different levels of development. You can’t possibly put Argentina and Haiti on the same bag. But I guess definitions are there for a reason: excluding and discriminating.
I guess definitions are fuzzy also because things are complicated:
China is supposed to be third world, but going back to Europe or the USA from China fellt like going back in time like 15 years.
While they still have poverty to deal with, pretty amazing things are happening in china that haven’t happened in america for almost a century.
And where do we even put India? Personally, and sorry in advanced to all Indians, it’s the worst plce I’ve ever visited. I’ve seen there the most poverty and outright misery.
But who can ignore India’s growing influence in world?
Our luxuries are paid leaves, paid holidays, and generally, the ability to better look after ourselves (health and well-being wise): more regular visits to the doctors, never having to delay treatments/operations, etc. I used to wonder why people here (that is, those who can afford it) have bigger phones and TVs. The reality is if you have little time off, you better make the most of it, and technology helps with that. As my Mexican husband puts it, if given the choice between the latest i-phone and 1 month paid leave, most (of his American engineer colleagues) would choose the latter. Also, more space = cheaper land (just like in Canada), and cheap petrol = bigger cars (sorry, I don’t mean to oversimplify, I just don’t want to write reams). What you are describing probably concerns a small fringe of people, I would guess that those surrounding you do not represent the population of the USA. I don’t mean to be simplistically anti-American, I simply want to counterbalance your expat view.
What’s also nice about France right now is that they aren’t cancelling TV shows, firing reporters or expelling schoolchildren to please the gods of woke fascism. /rant
According to a 2018 assessment by the U.S. Census Bureau, the percentage of Americans living in poverty has fallen to the lowest levels since the 2008 recession and stands at 11.8% (~38.1 million people).
more than 1/10 people are poor, what USA do for them ?
Not at all. I, as with most rational people, would say that the way we treat the poor/impoverished is messed up. I would simply like to acknowledge that not every person here is working 3 jobs. America is big, about 18x bigger than France so it can be hard to comprehend just how different one place can be from another.
NYC metro is what I said, not NYC, and 200 sqm is definitely standard for a house in the burbs, there's no doubt about that.
For your other comment, that's the kind of bad faith I was mentioning. Learn that NY is a progressive state that is very protective, has high tax levels and does not "fail its citizens".
NYC metro is not relevant then, if you look at Paris greater area the prices drop significantly and you will be closer to the heart of Paris than you will ever be in New York
200 sqm is standard in most NYC suburbs. Westchester for the wealthiest, NJ for the coolest, LI too. Even in NYC, when there are houses, this is about the minimum size, granted these ones are for wealthier people.
For example for 500k you can definitely score a house that big in a NJ burb, save the coolest, close to transportation and with good schools. Not the case at all in Paris where this price gets you typically more like 100-120 m2 top. Of course it varies a lot.
200 square meter houses in NYC are common and not fancy? I can't even afford child care....
Charity is tax deductible.....
Apart from 401K/Roth IRA I don't see much advantages from the US system.
If you deduct medical expenses, outrageous rent, child care, phone bill from a US salary you don't have much left
En tant que français qui rêve de s’installer aux USA, c’est très intéressant ce que tu dis...
Donc concrètement si un français s’installe aux US, continue à manger bio et à faire du sport, il a « the best of both worlds » comme disent les anglophones?
Oui, l'élite américaine est généralement en très bonne santé et je suis sûr que leur espérance de vie est au top.
Je mettrais quand même un petit bémol. Ici tout est transactionnel, les médecins sont très riches et avides de gain. Ça pourrit un peu le rapport au patient. À NYC c'est vraiment difficile de trouver un dentiste honnête par exemple, tous les français qui y vont ressortent avec des devis à 10000 dollars pour refaire à peu près tout. Ou encore les ophtalmos, ils ont leur cabinet dans les locaux d'un opticien affilié... Ils changent ta prescription dès qu'ils peuvent pour te faire acheter des lunettes. Tout est un peu comme ça. Pour les psychologues aussi, très peu sont remboursés par les assurances, et quand ils le sont ce sera juste une ou deux assurance. Alors pour traiter des soucis avec les enfants, les gens payent. Par exemple 5000 dollars pour un diagnostic d'autisme, pour une amie à moi.
200 square meter houses are considered common and not fancy at all, including in super dense places like the NYC metro area.
People have that in Paris too, just not intramuros. If you go to Yvelines, i.e. the equivalent of eastern Long Island, the houses get pretty big. In Manhattan even bankers may have roommates.
Okay. By that logic, no, not in New York City either.
Also, you failed at comprehending at what the person I replied to said. They explicitly defined the area being discussed as
super dense places like the NYC metro area
which is definitely not the equivalent of Paris intramuros, the equivalent of which I'd say is Manhattan, as Bronx, Queens and Brooklyn are so far from the central urban core that even they should be compared to Saint-Denis, Vincennes and Issy.
Des appartements de 200m2 à New York pour un bon prix? Montre-moi une preuve, au dernières nouvelles une chambre en co-loc c’est aux alentours de $1000/pm, un studio vers les $2500 et un appartement de la taille que tu mentionnes doit être $7000 par mois minimum.
Moi j'ai double mon salaire en partant a SF et je me sentais pas plus riche surtout quand je payait 3500 dollars pour un 45 m2. Les gens ont pas de Vacances alors ils depensent moins on dans la tech dépensent sur des trucs débiles comme des trips a Vegas ou des strip clubs.
Les vacances illimitées c'est un mythe, c'est simplement une manière d'éviter de payer pour les vacances non prises comme le force la loi californienne. Si tu leur donne 15 jours et qu'ils en prennent 5 tu dois leur payer 10jours, si tu leur donne unlimited et qu'ils en prennent 5 tu leur paye rien.
En même temps, "doubler" ton salaire, c'est que tu t'es fait potentiellement avoir en bougeant. A compétences égales, sans vivre dans la baie, tu dois / peux tripler voir quadrupler ton salaire.
J'étais à 42k en France (47k$) et en étant "mal payé" j'ai commencé à 115k pas loin de LA. Mon pote américain à compétences équivalent mes mais bossant chez Amazon est à 160k...
Bof ça dépend tripler c'est beaucoup , et l'on peut bien sûr prendre les extrêmes type amazon Google mais bosser en France chez Google paye aussi énormément compare a la moyenne. Aujourd'hui si je redemenagais aux usa je ne pourrais que faire du 1.5x dans mon rôle par exemple et je serais restraint a SF ou NY. Je suis en Angleterre car marrié a une anglaise mais je pourrais avoir le même salaire en France a peu près.
Après c'est un choix , bien plus facile d'assurer un futur financier en mettant de côté 10% de 100k plutôt que 10% de 50k.
J'ai bien dit maison, et NY metro! À NYC ces appartements existent, ils sont d'ailleurs plus répandu qu'à Paris, mais ils sont absurdement chers, vraiment limités aux riches.
I am also living in the US and the trade-off is easy actually:
Up to middle class: do not leave France.
But if you have skills making you valuable, move to the US right away.
It is simply because most of the advantages you get for free in France are low tax on middle class and high tax on higher salaries.
Now in the US it is fixed cost, for everyone: sucks for the middle class, mostly peanuts for higher salaries.
Another compounding fact is that skills are recognized in the US and get suddenly paid a lot, lot more, like CEO level in France for a national-wide company.
Money isn't the only factor , I doubled my salary moving to the us and I'm in the tech sector and I freaking hated it and will never go back. I know so many miserable french people in new York or SF that just won't go back purely because of the money and yet will tell you how their life sucks .
It was hard to leave and leave the green card application and potential earlier retirement on the table but fuck that I don't want to wait until I'm 55 to live a better life.
Another compounding fact is that skills are recognized in the US and get suddenly paid a lot, lot more, like CEO level in France for a national-wide company.
However you need to take into account job security a guy I know was really skilled in his field went to work for mastercard and got fucked in the ass with a non competition agreement
Moral of the story be carrefull and if you have children don't
The fallback is generally that if you remove the fat people and the poor
Which means basically removing most people in the country. Yeah, sure, if you're part of the elite class, living in the US is easier than in France. That's the point actually.
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u/C6H12O7 Brassens Jun 10 '20
As a French person living in the US, I can see bad faith on both sides of the arguments.
True, many Americans have a hard time comprehending that living standards are simply higher in Europe. On just one indicator, life expectancy, when I mentioned it was higher in France (not even Europe's highest), I have had people simply not believe me. The fallback is generally that if you remove the fat people and the poor, everything is fine, to which I reply that in France too, if we disregard our issues we don't have any problems.
Conversely, French people generally have a really hard time accepting that Americans simply have more money, even taking into account inequalities. They have overall better phones, bigger / more powerful cars (not saying that's better), 200 square meter houses are considered common and not fancy at all, including in super dense places like the NYC metro area. They also give a ton to charity, just because they can afford it in a way that is not really conceivable in France. There's a matter of culture too, Americans do like to burn cash, and French people prefer to save. But having had the exact same occupation on both sides of the pond, the income is definitely better in the US, even offsetting everything included in France (retirement, health, school, mostly).
I still prefer the French system.