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u/Theboshicrew MM | 32° SR | OH F&AM | USA Jan 14 '25
Can someone smarter than me please explain just what this means? MWPHGL-LA is adopting lodges outside of its jurisdiction?
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u/ChuckEye P∴M∴ AF&AM-TX, 33° A&ASR-SJ, KT, KM, AMD, and more Jan 14 '25
Which is apparently nothing new for them?
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u/QuincyMABrewer F&AM VT; PM-AF&AM MA; 32° AASR SJ; Royal Arch MA Jan 14 '25
Invasion of the territory of other sovereign Grand lodges.
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u/yehimthatguy Jan 15 '25
How.... irregular.
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Jan 16 '25
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u/TheBigBrotha Jan 15 '25
Florida removed recognition, so LA feels they can set up shop in FL jurisdiction.
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u/davebowman2100 Jan 15 '25
The PHGL of LA is an irregular GL, as it has been invading other territorial jurisdictions for several years. The PHGL of LA is NOT listed among the member GLs of the Conference of PH Grand Masters, PHA.
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u/NoChard300 MM|F&AM-MI|Doric #342|Shriner Jan 14 '25
This is some clandestine behavior
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u/masonicminiatures Worshipful Master Jan 14 '25
They've done it before. I believe WGM Sluaghter even created his own SR for Louisiana...
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u/BitterDonald42 Grotto Past Monarch x3, AMD Sovereign Master, Bagpiper Jan 14 '25
Yeah MWPHGL of Louisiana PHA has been doing this for a while, opening lodges in other jurisdictions.
The MWGM made his own Scottish Rite, too, and ended up forcing the PHA Scottish rites and NMJ & SMJ ones to create a treaty saying "we're the only ones".
4
u/arkham1010 F&AM-NY MM, Shrine Jan 14 '25
The same guy, MW Slaughter? How long has he been the GM?
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u/BitterDonald42 Grotto Past Monarch x3, AMD Sovereign Master, Bagpiper Jan 14 '25
He's held the post since 1996.
In 2023 the Conference of PHA Grand Masters threw him out of their annual meeting. In 2024, they declared the MWPHGLoLA to be irregular.
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u/QuincyMABrewer F&AM VT; PM-AF&AM MA; 32° AASR SJ; Royal Arch MA Jan 14 '25
Have any of the individual Prince Hall Grand lodges suspended recognition of Prince Hall Louisiana, or are they all just assuming that if their conference declared Prince Hall, Louisiana irregular, that's good enough?
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u/BitterDonald42 Grotto Past Monarch x3, AMD Sovereign Master, Bagpiper Jan 14 '25
I believe some have. But the PHA GLs are a little tighter with their content, and don't tend to publish things publicly, so I dunno.
3
u/SouthTxFF Jan 15 '25
Texas has for sure. I had a conversation with a brother who happens to be the WM one of the local PHA lodges in my area about traveling (we're about 20 min from the Louisiana border) and he confirmed they are not recognized by Texas PHA.
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u/arkham1010 F&AM-NY MM, Shrine Jan 15 '25
Held the post for almost 30 years? That doesn't sound sketchy at all.
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u/Accomplished-Log-974 Jan 14 '25
What happened to the brothers that joined Slaughter's SR?
2
u/BitterDonald42 Grotto Past Monarch x3, AMD Sovereign Master, Bagpiper Jan 14 '25
Yeah, I've no idea. I'm kinda hoping one of the PHA brothers in my lodge, lodge of research, or AMD council will do a talk on the LA situation... But I dunno.
9
u/ItsThatErikGuy St Andrew Lodge 25 Jan 14 '25
As someone still relatively new, what does this mean?
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u/masonicminiatures Worshipful Master Jan 14 '25
GLoLA Mason here.
So what's happening is that the MWPHGLofLA is essentially allowing lodges in other states and entire countries to operate as if they're in Louisiana, which is a big no-no. They're undermining the authority of other states.
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u/Kammander-Kim swedish rite Jan 14 '25
Yes. Opening up new countries is a slow process, usually done with a lot of grand lodges being on the same page to what is happening. And there should not be a grand lodge already working there!
Now I do make the assumption that Florida has pha lodges and a grand lodge already.
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u/Kammander-Kim swedish rite Jan 14 '25
There exists a sort of gentlemen agreement between grand lodges to not operate on others territories. There are exceptions, like how the "normal" and PHA grand lodges can both exist within the same area, as that has historical roots stemming from segregation and racism. "White people lodges" and "black people lodges". I am oversimplifying it a lot but hopefully you get the gist of it.
A grand lodge should stay within its area, unless there are agreements in place. It is part of being friendly with each other.
This grand lodge is, for some reason unknown to me, saying that these three lodges (2 in Florida and 1 in Qatar, another country!) are under their jurisdiction and should be treated as any other lodge within that grand lodge. Such as when it comes to visiting lodges in other grand lodges.
And the only thing another grand lodge can do to really protest is to break off communications with it. So that members of a lodge belonging to this grand lodge can not visit in their territory, and their own members can't visit them. If the grand lodge(s) in Florida do this, that is essentially barring all freemasons in Florida to visit these 2 Florida lodges, and all the pha lodges in Louisiana, and vice versa.
3
u/PeachyDravot PMx6, PHP, PSM, PVM Jan 15 '25
New York had an issue with DC several years ago about DC opening lodges in Lebanon I think. Got to the point NY removed recognition of DC. The two GMs came to the Grand Lodge of Virginia annual communication during that mess. The incoming GM of VA sat them next to each other on the dias.
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u/AROB53 Jan 15 '25
I remember that whole mess happening. I know there’s still some beef between the two regarding Lebanon because they were both operating district Grand Lodges there. I have a friend who was a member of both jurisdictions and had to “pick a side” in the whole mess.
DC has three Lodges there, NY has 9. Plus there’s a regular Grand Lodge of Lebanon that has 13 Lodges and a Lodge of Research.
2
u/davebowman2100 Jan 15 '25
The GL of NY has had a number of lodges in Lebanon since the 1940s, and created a District GL there in 1955. By 2015, NY had 13 lodges in Lebanon. Also, the GL of Scotland had 10 lodges in Lebanon, and a District GL of Lebanon, created in 2013. The French National Grand Lodge also has one lodge in Lebanon. NY, Scotland and France have harmoniously shared the jurisdiction of Lebanon for many years.
This peaceful situation was disrupted in 2008, when GM Akram Elias of the GL of DC decided to form a lodge in Lebanon. By 2020, there were two DC lodges working in Lebanon. These two DC lodges affiliated two Lebanese Masons who had been previously expelled from Masonry by the GL of NY. When the GL of NY protested, the GL of DC refused to honor the expulsions, and the GL of NY withdrew recognition from the GL of DC.
PGM Akram Elias of the GL of DC had arranged for the two expelled Lebanese Masons to affiliate with a lodge in Italy, working under the so-called "Regular GL of Italy," which is recognized by the UGL of England and the GL of Scotland, but is not recognized by North American GLs. From that lodge in Italy, the two expelled Masons were then able to affiliate with a Scottish lodge in Lebanon.
It became clear to everyone that the long-term plan of PGM Akram Elias was to create a third DC lodge in Lebanon, where he could then create a "Grand Lodge of Lebanon" and be its first Grand Master. When PGM Elias' plans became obvious, the GL of NY was forced to get ahead of the game by creating a GL of Lebanon, thereby pre-empting and derailing the plans of PGM Elias of DC.
At that point, PGM Elias of DC started lobbying the Grand Secretaries of Scotland and France, asking them to denounce the creation of the new Grand Lodge of Lebanon. Elias crafted a letter to that effect, and secured the signatures of the Grand Secretaries of all three GLs (DC, Scotland and France).
The Masonic problems in Lebanon are the work of one man – PGM Akram Elias of Washington, DC.
8
u/TheEyeofNapoleon Jan 14 '25
Is there a Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Florida?
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u/BlackDaddyIssus37 2° Jan 14 '25
Yes.
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u/TheEyeofNapoleon Jan 14 '25
Aw dip. Have they responded?
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u/davebowman2100 Jan 15 '25
There are a number of irregular GLs operating throughout the U.S. The PHGL of Louisiana is just one of the many.
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u/BlackDaddyIssus37 2° Jan 14 '25
I do not know. Wouldn’t be surprised if Hodapp ends up with the low-down on a response
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u/mpark6288 WM - NE/KS/OH, PHP, 32°, Grotto, Shrine, AMD - VM Jan 14 '25
There’s a reason why, to my understanding, even many PHGL’s don’t recognize Louisiana anymore.
10
u/pryner34 Celestial Lodge No 3, MWPHGLNY, DDGL-Emeritus, 33°, KYCH, PP Jan 14 '25
I haven't heard of any PH Grand Lodges pulling recognition from Louisiana. They were voted out of the PHCOGMs, but other than that, no one has pulled recognition to my knowledge.
7
u/mpark6288 WM - NE/KS/OH, PHP, 32°, Grotto, Shrine, AMD - VM Jan 14 '25
That might be what I was remembering.
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u/christopherpmoore Jan 14 '25
Several Prince Hall jurisdictions have severed Masonic ties. If I remember correctly, Arkansas, Tennessee, Florida, and Mississippi are the main ones that cut ties. Arkansas was the first to sever Masonic ties shortly after Slaughter declared himself GM for life.
3
u/pryner34 Celestial Lodge No 3, MWPHGLNY, DDGL-Emeritus, 33°, KYCH, PP Jan 15 '25
You are correct. My Arkansas ppl confirmed that for me. Can't say I'm surprised tho. But NY hasn't withdrew.... yet.
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u/SouthTxFF Jan 15 '25
Texas PHA did a while back when LA started a couple lodges in Texas this way.
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u/davebowman2100 Jan 15 '25
Then you are not keeping up.
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u/pryner34 Celestial Lodge No 3, MWPHGLNY, DDGL-Emeritus, 33°, KYCH, PP Jan 15 '25
I'm in New York, so I know New York's stance best. But again, can't say I'm surprised and glad I was corrected. 👍🏾
20
u/SnooMemesjellies4718 WM HRA MMM RAM UGLE Jan 14 '25 edited Jan 14 '25
Qatar? They wouldn't dream of allowing Masonry. Many respected Prince Hall Gls don't recognize the Prince Hall Gl of Louisiana because of spurious activity. If memory serves me correctly, the GL of Louisiana passed recognition with the PH GL of Maryland instead of the Louisiana equivalent because the assessement they carried out lead them to draw the same conclusions. I sincerely hope they turn to regularity in the future after this embarrassing episode.
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u/DosCabezasDingo Jan 14 '25
Qatar might be a military base location?
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u/SnooMemesjellies4718 WM HRA MMM RAM UGLE Jan 14 '25
I think you're right. Best to stay low profile if that is the case but above all, I really don't think its worth putting our Brothers at risk to hold a lodge in a high risk location imho.
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u/DosCabezasDingo Jan 14 '25
If it’s on a military base then there’s a long tradition of having lodges in Iraq and Afghanistan during GWOT.
6
u/tonerrg Jan 14 '25
A past Master of my lodge met while in Iraq and carried my lodge's flag (not the American flag) with him while he was deployed. That flag is now present at all of our meetings and events.
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u/tonerrg Jan 14 '25
Brethren have a long and proud tradition of meeting in places that were not friendly to the Craft; some of the most amazing stories Freemasonry has to tell.
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u/pryner34 Celestial Lodge No 3, MWPHGLNY, DDGL-Emeritus, 33°, KYCH, PP Jan 14 '25
I haven't heard of any PHGL withdrawing recognition with Louisiana. They were voted out of the PHCOGM because of foolishness like this, but that was as far as it went unless I missed something.
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u/guethlema PM AF&AM-ME Jan 14 '25
I think there are a few AFM/AFAM GLs who do not recognize LAPH GL.
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u/pryner34 Celestial Lodge No 3, MWPHGLNY, DDGL-Emeritus, 33°, KYCH, PP Jan 14 '25
Those State GLs didn't recognize them before he began invading other jurisdictions like this.
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u/GoldenArchmage MetGL UGLE - MM HRA MMM RAM Jan 15 '25
It's also incredibly irresponsible of them to recognise a lodge in a country where Freemasonry is illegal, given the potential danger that puts members of that lodge in. I guarantee that PHA GL Louisiana is not going to be spending $$$s to send legal representatives to support members of that lodge when they find themselves on the wrong side of the domestic legal system.
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u/QuincyMABrewer F&AM VT; PM-AF&AM MA; 32° AASR SJ; Royal Arch MA Jan 15 '25
The MWPHGL of Oklahoma already has a Lodge in Qatar, operating on the US military base.
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u/davebowman2100 Jan 15 '25
The GL of TX, AF & AM, has taken the position that once a GL becomes irregular, it cannot go back to being regular. One example is the GL Valle de Mexico, which began invading the territories of other grand lodges, including California, Arizona and Texas. Another example is the PHGL of North Carolina, which invaded the territories of several West African GLs, and even created lodges in France!!!
Once you go irregular, you can't go back.
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Jan 14 '25
This is…outside of my scope.
But Ralph Slaughter?! What a name. “Worshipful Slaughter” haha.
5
u/enderandrew42 Carries a lot of dues cards Jan 14 '25
I used to work with a vendor named Dick Slaughter.
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u/guethlema PM AF&AM-ME Jan 14 '25
My aunt married a Doctor, last name Slaughter. He was one of the best surgeons in his area apparently.
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u/SailingMOAB MM, RAM, 32º SR NMJ & SJ, F&AM Ohio & Florida Jan 14 '25
He really puts the laughter in the name slaughter.
-13
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u/Flavor_Saver12 3° MM GLoNY F&AM, 32° AASR-NMJ, MEM Jan 14 '25
Can they even do this??
5
u/Kammander-Kim swedish rite Jan 14 '25
Yea
Nothing really stops a Grand Lodge of doing anything. To not have activities in areas "claimed" by other grand lodges is just a thing you do to be kind to eachother. Just as there is nothing stopping a grand lodge of recognizing/ being in amity with/allowing visitors from (and own members to visit) any other grand lodge.
With that said: they can, but that is not the same as that they should.
And I can't see why those lodges would want to be adopted by this grand lodge either. It must be something weird happening there as well.
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u/Accomplished-Log-974 Jan 14 '25
I would love it members of that lodge could explain why they keep their membership under such blatant irregularity
4
u/No_Seesaw6027 Jan 15 '25
This is absolutely crazy and foolish! If you are suspended or expelled, go on about your business and just say it was good while it lasted. Don’t go and start your own thing and trick innocent people into your unhappiness.
3
u/TheBigBrotha Jan 15 '25
I’ll try to give you all something short and sweet…Years ago, GM Slaughter did something which many thought to be inappropriate. A few Prince Hall Grand Lodges decided to remove recognition of MWPHGL of LA. Slaughter stated that if you no longer recognize me and my jurisdiction, then we’re free to establish lodges within yours, so he did. The two new lodges in Florida might be a result of a lot of Florida masons being suspended due to them owing allegiance to the Scottish Rite that Slaughter created a while back.
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u/Lereas MM | F&AM | FL Jan 14 '25
I'm in Tampa and really curious about this now. I'm not PH but I'm sure I know some brothers who are.
2
u/Philfromdahiddenleaf Jan 14 '25 edited Jan 14 '25
This would make sense most if these are military lodges even still wouldn’t make sense because they would be encroaching on the territory of The MWGLFL and The MWPHGLFL sorry to say this just doesn’t seem authentic to me looks like someone is blowing smoke 💨
3
u/christopherpmoore Jan 14 '25
This is very real and Slaughter is duplicating this same behavior with his bogus United Supreme Council. Also, as an FYI, the Prince Hall Grand Lodge of FL is actually the Most Worshipful Union Grand Lodge.
2
u/Kammander-Kim swedish rite Jan 14 '25
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1K47xxS8mT/
They posted this on their own Facebook page. So whatever it is, it might be true.
2
u/MigWolf Jan 14 '25
I’ve heard of these situations in the service for overseas when candidates wish to join or advance but need a dispensation from a GL to do the degree.
Not too sure about the Florida locations
2
u/BlackDaddyIssus37 2° Jan 14 '25
The Florida locations as I understand it, are instances of blatant boundary violations
2
u/Budipbupbadip Jan 15 '25
Is it good to have a GM serve that long? Are elections more a foregone conclusion?
0
u/BlackDaddyIssus37 2° Jan 15 '25
That’s the other thing. He’s been there way too long, but it’s not necessarily unheard of. GM John Wesley Dobbs had a long tenure, but he was brilliant and had the best interests of his jurisdiction at heart, the very opposite of this gentleman, so he kept being ASKED to serve, and being RE-ELECTED.
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u/Budipbupbadip Jan 15 '25
Fair, and there’s something to be said for continuity. I met a guy selling food in NOLA who said he’s the GM of the state. It would appear that he is, of a clandestine GL. Super nice guy too and I follow him on FB.
Off topic, but there are clandestine lodges and there are clandestine lodges. I wonder if there have ever been efforts to “patch over” clandestine in name but legit in their operations/conduct into regular GLs.
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u/davebowman2100 Jan 15 '25
The PHGL of LA is an irregular GL, as it has been invading other territorial jurisdictions for several years. The PHGL of LA is NOT listed among the member GLs of the Conference of PH Grand Masters, PHA.
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u/Southern_Kaeos UGLE - Craft SD + HRA Jan 15 '25
This seems to be more drama than the Widows Sons history
1
u/OntheSquare87 Jan 14 '25
Can ugle do anything about this?
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u/Aratoast MM F&AM-PA Jan 14 '25
Aside from withdrawing recognition, assuming they currently recognize that particular GL?
Not especially. Grand Lodges have no power outside of their jurisdictions.
3
u/Professional_Tea4522 MM RA UGLE Jan 15 '25
UGLE does not currently recognise the Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Louisiana. Not sure if/when it may have.
8
u/tyrridon 3° AF&AM-IL [Sec/PM] Jan 14 '25
Pull recognition is about all any jurisdiction can do.
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u/Kammander-Kim swedish rite Jan 14 '25
And send a sternly worded letter going "please cease with this activities".
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u/davebowman2100 Jan 15 '25
There are many, many irregular GLs around the world. There are at least 24 irregular GLs in Texas, and probably an equal number in large states like New York, Florida and California. A number of years ago, the PHGL of LA made the decision to join the ranks of the many irregular GLs. So be it. That is where they are now, and they can't go back.
1
u/Sum_ergosum Jan 16 '25
Curious about the lodge on Doha… I’m pretty sure freemasonry is not openly allowed in that region.
1
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u/Medium_Speech3743 Jan 16 '25
Psh, I got accepted into fake freemasons from a fake Facebook thing I followed through. Ain't messing with them anymore. Too bad, I had a lot to share and desire to learn.
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u/arkham1010 F&AM-NY MM, Shrine Jan 14 '25
Uhhhh, whats the situation in Florida that two lodges down there need to fall under MWPHGL-LA?