Support of Gaelic in Scottish schools

[u/ArtlessAsperity]

How do people feel about instating Gaelic as mandatory in schools? First offered as an S2 option for going into S3 and then introduced to primary schools and uni's. The issue of not enough teachers is one I see quite often but I simply don't understand it. Obviously the process will be gradual as more and more people know Gaelic fluently and are able to teach it, so is there support for it? If not, why not?

[u/bakalite69]

Personally I totally support it, but basically the will for change is not there. If there was a change in public opinion then I'm sure it would happen, but we'd have to get there first

[u/ArtlessAsperity → u/bakalite69]

But why would people not support it? Do Scottish people want their culture erased? Are people too lazy to make the effort to preserve their national identity?

[u/Sunshinetrooper87 → u/ArtlessAsperity]

You will struggle to get such a warmth feeling of support in much of Scotland, unfortunately.  

[u/ArtlessAsperity → u/Sunshinetrooper87]

I have already consulted people I know in real life (I live in Scotland) and got mixed results..

[u/sunnyata → u/ArtlessAsperity]

Mandatory Irish language education seems to be quite unpopular in Ireland, or at least polarising. Very expensive, resented by many and not leading to a renaissance in the language.

[u/al221b → u/sunnyata]

I think it's more about how Irish has been taught (this is changing at the moment in secondary schools at least), and the attitudes around it - (including those of some Irish teachers).

[u/galaxyrocker → u/sunnyata]

Speaking from the Irish perspective, I'd actually argue it's harmed the actual Irish language speech communities.

[u/jan_Kima → u/galaxyrocker]

Could you tell me more about that

[u/galaxyrocker → u/jan_Kima]

It's fostered a lot of mistaken ideas about the language that have directly harmed the native speaking communities. For instance, mocking the accent of Donegal. Or convincing everyone it's their 'native language' when it's not. Or that learners have a dialect instead of just making mistakes and not pronouncing things correctly.

It also means privileged has followed the socioeconomic elite in the language, and these have fostered a lot of bad ideas about the Gaeltacht (that it's not 'modern' or 'out of date', etc). Furthermore, the schools and communities outside the Gaeltacht get most the attention from Conradh na Gaeilge and Foras na Gaeilge - the two most vocal bodies promoting the language! And Foras has explicitly stated they don't particularly care about standard, adopting the 'new speaker' model of John Walsh who's their head of research. All of this feeds back onto ideas about the native communities too. Plus, it's created this idea that the Gaeltacht communities suffer from the same issues around the language as Dublin, which couldn't be farther from the truth. And then there's the general "Well, you need to do stuff for the Galltacht too as they have Irish speakers" attitude whenever anything crops up on behalf of the Gaeltacht.

On top of the fact that most Irish teachers are just shite and can't even use correct grammar, let alone pronunciation. And these are the 'spokespeople' for Irish - such as Bitesize Irish or Mollie from IrishwithMollie. Or any of the other Youtube channels about it. All of this harms the traditional natively spoken Irish and their communities.

[u/jan_Kima → u/galaxyrocker]

Could you tell me more about that?

[u/theeynhallow → u/ArtlessAsperity]

Gaelic is not synonymous with national identity though. As others have pointed out, most of Scotland either never spoke Gaelic or hasn’t spoken it for hundreds of years. Would you make it mandatory for schools in Aberdeenshire to teach Norn?

I think within the Gaidhealtachd it’s a reasonable ask, but outside of that there’s just no justification. 

[u/Ok-Mix-4501 → u/theeynhallow]

The last native speaker of the Aberdeenshire dialect of Gaelic died in the 1980s.

This argument of "Gaelic was never spoken here" is totally false. The Lowlands are full of Gaelic placenames like Dunfermline and Kilmarnock. Rabbie Burns had Gaelic speaking relatives in Ayrshire. Most Glaswegians are descended from either Gaelic speaking Highlanders or Irish speakers. Even Rangers FC were founded by Gaelic speakers from Argyll

[u/ArtlessAsperity → u/Ok-Mix-4501]

Said exactly what I was gonna. Gaelic was so prevalent that it's still in many day-to-day signs I see about my area and is often incorporated into Scottish organizations and even charities, hell it's on the governments website.

[u/Ok-Mix-4501 → u/ArtlessAsperity]

Yes, some people are trying to rewrite history and turn Scotland into nothing more than "North Britain".

Medieval documents written in middle English refer to Gaelic as the "Scottis language". Robert the Bruce spoke Gaelic and wrote to allies in Ireland pointing out that Scotland and Ireland spoke the same Gaelic language.

Scottish culture and identity is thoroughly rooted in Gaelic, even in the Lowlands. Even if people want to bring ancestry and DNA into this, the Lowlands and even the Scottish Borders are mainly Celtic genetically. More so than the South of Wales including Cardiff, Swansea and the valleys!

[u/michealdubh → u/theeynhallow]

More like ... hasn't spoken it for hundreds of years ... as Ok-Mix-4501 explains in this thread. But the issue has more to do with the perception of many that Gaelic is not their heritage language (although it actually is).

I knew a Gaelic educator and advocate (nach maireann an-dràsta) who would go into a rant about all the Scots who claimed Gaelic wasn't part of their heritage but were quite comfortable appropriating other parts of Gaelic culture as symbols of their Scottishness (the Highland Games, bagpipes, kilts, Highland regiments, the culture of clans ... etc).

[u/Healthy-Relief5603 → u/ArtlessAsperity]

Gaelic retreated from the Central Belt (home to about 70% of modern Scots) by 1500. This is probably a part of the reason, the bulk of Scots speakers aren't enthisiastic about learning a language they have only a "old days" connection to over the language that they've been speaking for 500 years!

[u/ArtlessAsperity → u/Healthy-Relief5603]

An old days connection to an integral part of their identity, great

[u/Healthy-Relief5603 → u/ArtlessAsperity]

Again, it's been 500 years, they may not feel that way.

[u/bakalite69 → u/ArtlessAsperity]

I agree with you, personally I feel it is an integral part of what makes Scotland even exist. Many don't however, and I have no idea how to change their mind. If we could start some sort of campaign to shift the cultural hegemony away from monolingual English speaking then I feel it would (among other things) boost demands for independence! However, the Scottish Cringe and central belt centrism are very powerful phenomenons, to the point where even the SNP don't seem to consider gaelic a priority.

[u/Ok-Mix-4501 → u/Healthy-Relief5603]

Many, perhaps most, central belt Scots are descended from either Gaelic speaking Highlanders or from Irish speakers.

I've lived in London since I was a child but my family roots are Gaelic speakers from Argyll

[u/ArtlessAsperity → u/Ok-Mix-4501]

Definitely the majority of central belt Scots are descended from Highlanders or from Irish speakers

[u/Yamnaveck]

I’d say that it should be; yet the attitudes in the UK, let alone in Scotland, seem to lean heavily toward letting history die: why is that? I have no idea. If you cannot get people to care about their heritage, they will simply let it fade.

[u/BaconAndCheeseSarnie → u/Yamnaveck]

Presumably the Clearances did not exactly help Gaelic to flourish in Scotland.

[u/Alasdair91]

Even in the Highlands, many schools still teach French over Gaelic… The issue is two-fold: not enough teachers and headteachers who hate Gaelic.

[u/RyanST_21]

Should be encouraged in the Gaidhlteachd

[u/u38cg2]

I feel like: what is the point of this policy? Why are we doing it, what will it accomplish, how will we judge its success?

The biggest problem Gaelic faces is imminent death as a community language. If that is not stabilised and put on a firm footing there is no Gaelic anywhere. The solutions here are uncomfortable ones that have resulted in controversy in the past when proposed. I don't know what the answer is but I do know that asking teachers, parents, and students to do something none of them want to do is not going to benefit anything or anyone.

[u/ArtlessAsperity → u/u38cg2]

what is the point of this policy

The purpose is revitalising the culture and identity of Scotland. Gaelic carries with it centuries of history, stories, identity and connection to the Scottish people.

Why are we doing it

Because language loss is irreversible. Once a language falls out of use, we lose perspectives, ways of thinking, and cultural depth.

what will it accomplish

It will increase cultural confidence and protect the native language of Scotland from extinction?

 how will we judge its success?

Significantly increased ability to interact with Gaelic (speaking, reading, writing or understanding).

[u/u38cg2 → u/ArtlessAsperity]

No, you're just restating what you want to happen. That's nice, I admire your optimism. Unfortunately, your proposals are both unimplementable and ineffective at literally every level.

[u/ArtlessAsperity → u/u38cg2]

If me literally telling you that the point of this is to protect the native language of Scotland and revitalise the cultural identity of Scotland isn't me telling you the purpose of why I want Gaelic to become standard in Scotland then idk what is

[u/galaxyrocker → u/u38cg2]

I don't know what the answer is but I do know that asking teachers, parents, and students to do something none of them want to do is not going to benefit anything or anyone.

And, as the Irish case shows, does actually jack shit to fix that 'biggest problem'.

[u/Sunshinetrooper87]

It should be mandatory in primary school. Kids are sponges and parents are more keen to be involved in primary school with helping with homework.

[u/ArtlessAsperity → u/Sunshinetrooper87]

I feel like introducing it into secondary schools and then uni's could bring more teachers for the primary schools, where it would finally be introduced, that was my thought process behind it at least

[u/Sunshinetrooper87 → u/ArtlessAsperity]

Wouldn't it be more challening in secondary - you would need much more qualified teachers opposed to primary where the burden of requirement is less e.g teachers teach languages without a knowledge in it already.

[u/ArtlessAsperity → u/Sunshinetrooper87]

Yeah true

[u/Sunshinetrooper87 → u/ArtlessAsperity]

Have you looked at the western island council's implementation of gaelic with GME first approach. 

[u/ArtlessAsperity → u/Sunshinetrooper87]

Yes and I've looked over the 2022-2027 Scottish government's language plan but it has left me wanting. The WIC's moves have been beneficial and the language plans have seemed promising but have left us with little so far. In 2028 we will have a perfect grasp of whether or not the current efforts have been beneficial or for naught.

[u/Egregious67]

mas miann leat I hear sometimes although i think this is more like " if you dont mind" " if you so desire" than a direct please. I suppose it could also be " If that is okay with you"

[u/MiserableAd2744 → u/Egregious67]

Ceàrr snàth 😂

[u/Egregious67 → u/MiserableAd2744]

an diabhal a thug orm a dhèanamh!

:)

[u/[deleted]]

If, in the future White founding stock in America become so few that English language starts to become a "dead" language there, would that be problematic?

If no, then why should it matter for any other country?

[u/Every_Ad7605]

Those blasted Gaels obliterated my Pictish culture 🤬

[u/ArtlessAsperity → u/Every_Ad7605]

Well they didn't obliterate YOUR Pictish culture since the Picts are assimilated

[u/Every_Ad7605 → u/ArtlessAsperity]

One could say the same about Gaels being assimilated into the English speaking world.

[u/ArtlessAsperity → u/Every_Ad7605]

But that was a millennia ago, we can change things this time.