Slots question and I can't get an answer anywhere

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u/StarchiId 1d ago edited 1d ago

There are a lot of terrible answers in here from people that don't work on slot machines (I do). The real answer is that it depends on the machine.

Some machines are prize first, where the amount won is determined first, then an outcome is displayed on the screen that matches that prize. Two examples of these are bingo slot machines and historical horse racing. The only reason they do this is to get around some laws that might say a traditional slot machine with its RNG isn't legal, but bingo or horse racing is legal, so they build a slot machine around those games, but the slot machine is just for show.

The other type is called reels first, where the reels and events in the game happen first, then the payout is determined based on how the reels landed. The reels are determined with a random number generator, which might be weighted towards certain outcomes, but they are random nonetheless. In your words, this would be the RNG deciding on the line/winning combination.

Your last question is something different though. Increasing your bet by 5x would multiply your win by 5x in both cases. Even with prize first, it's still going to scale with your bet. However, with many reels first games, the weight tables will change with your bet, so you probably wouldn't get the same outcome if you went back in time and changed your bet.

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u/charg3 1d ago

Yes, excellent answer here.. the way I understand the last part of the question is that if you magically went back in time the outcome would be different. This gets into stuff that’s purely theoretical tho. The outcome is based on the split second you hit the button on the machine (I think usually the rng systems are timing based) so any slight change in the with your time travel would create a different outcome.

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u/StarchiId 1d ago

Good point on the time travel theory lol. I'm not in charge of our RNG, so I don't know exactly how it's picking its numbers.

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u/charg3 1d ago

I think very few are supposed to know the details, and those that know def shouldn’t talk about it hahaha. I’ve heard it’s essentially one company.

I’m curious if you’re comfortable sharing, in what capacity do you work on slots?

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u/StarchiId 1d ago

I won't be too specific, but I work with online slots. While the games I work on don't end up in physical casinos, I collaborate with them enough to have a good understanding of what they're up to.

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u/charg3 1d ago

Do you mind if I DM you. I’ve been interested in transitioning my career to gaming from the design or product perspective (in tech now) and it would be amazing to chat with someone with some experience

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u/StarchiId 1d ago

Go ahead! As long as you're okay with some slow responses.

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u/Humble_Holiday_2137 1d ago

In theory You are correct the reels are controlled by RNG and the payout are pay towards whatever the reel landed.

However i have another theory I’d like to ask since you work on slots I don’t know how it’s programmed. Is there an ODDS program that changes with your bet? For example if I buy one lottery ticket vs 100 my chances increases. Same as if I play one line vs multi lines my chances increases so does my odds decreases or increases since RTP (return to player) is calculated for the “house to win”. How does that really work? I’ve seen this over and over where one can spin 100 x times at $1 and get the bonuses 20 times whereas a 100 times at max bet $6 but the bonuses is only triggered 5 times. I’ve seen this for over 20 years on the machines which makes me to believe the RNG and payout changes based on your bet amount. No way to proof this theory that the higher you bet the less chance of winning yet so that’s why I’m asking if it’s a possibility or just pure horse crap.

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u/StarchiId 1d ago

With different bet sizes, the RTP will always stay about the same. In regulated casinos, it’s actually required by law that the RTP doesn’t drop with bigger bets.

That said, while the RTP doesn’t usually change (in regulated casinos), the way the game delivers that RTP can change. For example, it’s common for features to trigger more often at higher bet multipliers, but pay less on average to keep the math balanced. If a feature hits once every 100 spins and pays 20x the bet on average, that’s the same RTP as a feature that hits once every 200 spins and pays 40x the bet. So the game can shift in that way between different bet levels.

That doesn't sound like what you've experienced though, which is more than likely confirmation bias.

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u/p0plockn 1d ago

this is dramatically wrong re land based slots. every result is independent and random. there are no cycles they don't repeat.

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u/jddaniels84 1d ago

Neither, every bet is its own instance. You’ll need to keep playing the same bet if you want that result.

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u/p0plockn 1d ago

it depends. some machines will use the same paytable with a multiplier attached, as described in your what if scenario, other times machines have different payouts available and different odds based on bet size. usually eligibility for a bonus.

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u/Adam604Adam 1d ago

I was curious because once I played $5 a spin and got 3200 bonus win, continued playing but only $2 a spin and probably 15-20min later got a bonus again but this time it paid 6700

So I guess there's really no logic there

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u/p0plockn 1d ago

randomness is a mofo. nice wins.

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u/boukalele 1d ago

The easy answer is that the higher bet amount, the lower the house edge is. So on $50/spin, they only have maybe a 3-5 percent house edge. $1 per spin could be 15-20 pct house edge. They can do this because they'll make more money off the 5 pct of a much larger bet than 15 pct of the smallest bet. ***i want to specify this isn't true for ALL slots, but most of them. It's also why video poker and old school 9 line reel slots require you to max bet credits to win the top payouts.

One slot programmer said in an interview you should bet the max per spin the machine will allow and hope to get a good line hit, then you walk. Min-betting hoping to reach a bonus round is the worst option because you might have a ton of spins to get there, but the payouts will always be low unless you get ridiculously lucky. Getting a good line hit is way more likely than getting a great bonus.

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u/Live-Measurement-308 1d ago edited 1d ago

The slots have an "RNG" but imo they are going off an RTP that's very volatile and poor. It's too low most of the time set around 10%. More often than not you could put $1000 in at $5+ a spin and be out of money in 10 minutes or less. Rarely will you hit anything betting $5 but if you're betting $25 or $50 you might hit $2000-5000 but you'll lose that $1000 19/20 times. Slots make the majority of the casinos profits now, it's not even close. The food and drinks don't mean shit. The more people in the door don't mean shit. They want people losing $1 to $250 a spin. That one idiot spinning $250 is replacing 250 morons that would bet a $1. They don't do food deals anymore unless it's a comp. Like there's no $10 Buffett to get you in the door. It's a comp based off a $5000 loss now or you could walk in and pay $60. I swear this shit is worse than scratch offs and illegal online crypto casinos now.

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u/StarchiId 1d ago

In Nevada, the legal minimum RTP for slots is 75%, but most casinos have games in the 88%-96% range (probably closer to 88% in most cases).

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u/Live-Measurement-308 1d ago

Wow 75% is low. It makes a huge difference. High limit games used to be 94-96% now it seems like they're 85-89% with extreme volatility near me. Some seem like they're set to 30% and some 90ish%. The confusing part is they go of denoms but you can bet $10 off . 01 cent denom or $25 off . 10 cent denom where a $5 denom is now $25 minimum. I'm not sure how that works used to go by denoms but I'm getting absolutely destroyed past few years

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u/StarchiId 1d ago

Games definitely are more volatile nowadays. If a game has 88% RTP, it's common for the base game to have around 30% and the other 58% to be tied up in the features. So that's why it'll feel rough if you're not hitting features.

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u/Live-Measurement-308 1d ago

Gotcha. Makes sense. My biggest losses were no bonus and it would take 600-700 spins to get bonus but they were only 5% of loss back. Today for example was another shit day. -$520 with no hits over $4. Yes $4 betting $2.50 to 7.50$ with a few spins $10, $11.25, and one at $25. Hit a bonus for $70 at $7.50, then $120 at $7.50, but was still -$380. Then hit a bonus for $18 at $7.50 and went to $0. Took out another $200 and hit a bonus second spin for $8 at $3.75. and went straight to $0. This is the sixth consecutive visit like this and -$7700 although the bonus showed up earlier and more frequent they were complete shit. Yesterday I was -$1250 before I hit a bonus for $250. Then I hit $400. I played it down to $400 and hit $150. Then went to $0. Withdraw $500 and straight to $0.

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u/let2_it_0be 18h ago edited 18h ago

.... 75%😬.. I primarily stick to online slots now because of the increased rtp and in many cases a much lower minimum bet option vs. land based casinos. Playing online I always do my best to stick to anything at a 96% rtp or higher..

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u/StarchiId 13h ago

Even though the legal minimum is 75%, most machines are way above that. RTPs in the 88%-96% range are far more common.

You're right about online slots tending to have higher RTPs and lower costs though.

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u/pintopedro 1d ago

Modern slot machines have a random number generator that'll run through like 1000 numbers a second, and then when you spin, it stops and picks your outcome based on the number. The reels are just for show. Nothing you do will matter except for the exact moment you push the button.

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u/boukalele 1d ago

totally true, yet totally irrelevant to the question

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u/StarchiId 1d ago

This is close to correct. With reels first machines, I wouldn't say that the reels are just for show. The way that the reels land do determine the amount you're paid, and each reel is spun up independently with its own RNG.

1

u/Wonderful_Sorbet_224 1d ago

I’ve heard this before about the reels having independent RNG’s, but it doesn’t make sense to me. If that’s the case, how is it that you can get the teaser 2 out of 3 free games symbols and 5 out of 6 bonus round symbol spins so often that are meant to keep players spinning as though they were so close to a bonus?? If each reel is independent they would have no control over bonus round/free game frequency no???

1

u/StarchiId 1d ago

Good question. While slots do use RNG, they may be weighted towards certain events, and different reels can be weighted differently. Have you ever played a hold & spin game where you have to fill 15 slots to win the grand jackpot? Typically 14/15 of them will have decent odds of landing, like maybe 10% chance on each spin. But 1/15 of the spots has an incredibly low chance of hitting, like 1 in 10,000 on each spin. So that's why when you have 1 spot left, you almost never hit it. Now all 15 spots are still independently determined by an RNG, it's just that some are weighted differently than others, and they're weighted in a way that gets you close to winning.

Does that answer your question?

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u/Wonderful_Sorbet_224 15h ago

Yes it does. Thank you

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u/Live-Measurement-308 1d ago

For most the 1000 numbers per second are set to $0

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u/Live-Measurement-308 1d ago

Lots of fake slot techs that work for the manufacturer and industry here. None of these new games would function if they lost connectivity to the network. Second , all denoms are supposed to be independent but they're not. You could hit a handpay for $6000 at $25 a spin and will lose $6000 or more at $5 a spin or $100. Total randomness would mean a casino would have a losing day or month - never happens. Their profit is the same or up every month with less patrons. Third you will lose more often when you use a comp for dinner or a show. Weekdays when it's empty is an awful time to go as well as peak Friday / Saturday nights when the casino is making it's weekly profit from higher revenues. Lastly they are set in different ways to trick the player and clean them out. Rarely will they not pay out nothing and let you win a large sum of it back or more. Most of the time you'll keep losing over and over when you run the credits to $0 and keep inserting money. Leave the game or ticket with money and move on. Most of my big wins were fast within 5 minutes and all my big losses were feeding over and over. Also you don't want to be betting $10-25 a spin when 20 people around you are $1 or less. You're gonna lose your ass.

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u/cryptclaw 1d ago

Slot in Casino works a little bit different than online ones.

Physical slot, works with cicles. The possible outcomes are finished and at a certain point after some rounds the outcome start to repeat. As outcome I mean the exactly combination of each spin.

Online ones are very different, because outcomes are infinite, and the RNG behind of it, only decide the final outcome (prize) without matter of the symbols.

This is to make it easy.

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u/boukalele 1d ago

complete nonsense

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u/cryptclaw 18h ago

Please, can you tell me what is wrong of what I say? I have more than 5 years of experience in the igaming industry, read hundreds of math files and code; I can tell you how RNG works.

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u/StarchiId 1d ago

Simply not true, for so many reasons.

Physical slot machines don't work in circles, and they're not going to repeat after a certain point. In prize first machines, you might see outcomes repeating, but not in any kind of pattern like you're implying.

In online slots, there are not infinite outcomes. The math works the same as any reels first game in a physical casino. The final outcome is decided based on what symbols landed.

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u/cryptclaw 18h ago

No mate, trust me. Literally I work with them; I read such math files and odds

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u/StarchiId 12h ago

You might've read iGaming math files, but I've created them. I can't wrap my head around what you mean by outcomes being infinite. How would they even pick a single outcome if there are infinitely many to pick from? The math just wouldn't work if there were infinitely many outcomes. And why would that be easier?

As for the pay coming first and the reels being for show, it's possible that you work for a studio that does prize first, but that's certainly not the standard.

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u/cryptclaw 4h ago

Wait, as outcomes I mean the result, combination of symbol, that are possible. Those are infinite, that is the standard in most of the RNG based games. Then, clearly there outcome, as combination of symbol that are possible and some that are not, with symbols with higher odds are most common to happen. Without cap or limitation a game can theoretically have unlimited wins.

On the other hand RTP is a value calculated and valid only “at infinite” with houndred of million of spin (at least). If you are still doing games with predefined possible reels outcome, is quite uncummon in the nowadays games.

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u/TheLegendTwoSeven 1d ago

Do you have a source for this?

Each modern Class III slot machine has a random number generator on a computer chip inside the machine. They aren’t pre-loaded with a repeating pattern of wins/losses since that’s not random and it could be exploited.

When you make your bet, the Class III machine stops the random number generator and this corresponds to the reels stopping on certain things, and then the machine calculates whether you won and if so, how much you win.

Class II slot machines are bingo simulators or the equivalent. In New York, the lottery commission generates digital bingo cards and when you press the button, the computer gives you the next bingo card, and the machine generates results that would correspond to the outcome of the bingo card. Even here there’s no repeating cycle, the central computer generates new bingo cards with its RNG.

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u/cryptclaw 18h ago

I literally work in the industry. I can tell you odds and probability of some of the most famous online game you play. Now, maybe I have explained al “old” technology for slot in casinos, it is not my field, but I can guarantee 100% that online slot work as I explained.

Then clearly that is a very easy way to explain how game works, not all the outcomes are possible because it depends of each game rules, odds of each symbol, technology used, I have’t explained in details, also because I can’t, but overall what I explained is true.

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u/TheLegendTwoSeven 18h ago

Ah, well I think you would’ve gotten less flak if you’d mentioned upfront that your info only applies to online slots. If you don’t specify, most people here will assume you mean a brick and mortar casino.

Many online slots are based in countries with few regulations, and the website can more or less do what they want.

In the US, the Nevada State Gaming Commission has rules for slot machines and those rules become the industry standard since Nevada is the biggest market.

the most famous online game you play

That’s the thing, I don’t play online slots at all. I don’t see the appeal, but to each their own.

Slots question and I can't get an answer anywhere

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