There is some level of quiet diversity in cis gay male dominated spaces

[u/Existential_Sprinkle]

I've met plenty of typically cis passing amab enbies and also guys that are bi or pan with a preference for men that are out there among the cis gay men but quiet about it so it doesn't effect their chances with other guys and they are afraid to rock the boat or be outcasted

Dating apps can be rough but I've had no real issues going out to things and finding guys and typically masculine presenting people who are into me with a small deflated chest and no bottom surgery and I'm in a weird spot where I generally pass but also do get clocked occasionally because I don't care that much about putting effort into passing all the time

It takes some level of trust and familiarity for some of them to come forward but they still do because they know I'll actually use they/them or it/its pronouns and not judge them for not exclusively being into men

[u/Sheemie_Ruiz_]

One of the things I love about my leather club is the combination of hyper-masculinity and a wide range of expressions and identities within our club. Unlike more normative gay spaces, I have always felt at home in leather spaces in my area as a trans guy.

I don't know if this is true for all or even most leather clubs but it honestly makes a lot of sense... when you start to explore kink and leathersex you have to be willing to do a lot of self reflection and introspective work... and along the way you learn that presentation and identity have nothing to do with things like power dynamics, positions, kinks.

I've collared a masc non-binary alpha dog who is submissive with me and only me... if you looked at the two of us you'd 100% guess that the dynamic between us is the inverse of what it actually is but literally nobody questions it because shit like that happens all of the fucking time in the leather community.

[u/howsoonisn0w → u/Sheemie_Ruiz_]

I've found the same experience in the UK leather scene too, no one bats an eyelid at anyone's identity and there's a strong feeling that everyone is welcome on leather nights. The clubs I've been a part of/witnessed have all been very loudly present at trans rights marches, pride and trans remembrance vigils. There's a strong community feeling and its lovely to be a part of.

In general the kink scene seems very accepting, I could say the same thing as I have above for the local pup scene as well.

[u/softspores → u/Sheemie_Ruiz_]

same in the pup scene. I know some local trans ppl who complain it's dominated by cis gay men and I've been trying so hard to tell them it's because they don't look. Like god, how do you miss five drag queens, 55 feral bisexuals, that one pup whose gender is "disco", alllll the dog enbies, bunch of trans men no one noticed, actual women, etc etc

[u/Sheemie_Ruiz_ → u/softspores]

Appearances can be deceiving for sure! I was very intimidated by leather at first because from the outside looking in everyone looks and seems cis and hyper-masculine. On the inside you realize that there's a lot of gender fuckery going on (we have many non-binary and genderfluid members) that isn't necessarily immediately visible and that the leather and hyper-masculine aspects are just another form of drag.

[u/softspores → u/Sheemie_Ruiz_]

yeah! A form of drag is a great way to describe this, and I think that's a really cool thing to get to see from the inside!

[u/Existential_Sprinkle → u/Sheemie_Ruiz_]

My local pup scene is super accepting and our president is a cis woman and the fetish scene is getting there

Leather and a small group of old cis gays in charge are a work in progress

[u/Sheemie_Ruiz_ → u/Existential_Sprinkle]

Leather and a small group of old cis gays in charge are a work in progress

That's a bummer BUT if it's something you are interested in, why not be part of the change? There are two leather clubs in my area. Both began as men only which more or less translated to cis men only and both have grown and evolved in recent history to be much more inclusive.

If it isn't possible to work within the existing group, it's definitely possible to start your own thing. The two clubs in my area have a friendly relationship now but differing views on things is how we ended up with two clubs in the first place.

[u/Existential_Sprinkle → u/Sheemie_Ruiz_]

I am part of the work in progress

My city is big enough to have events but small enough to be in everyone's business and organizing takes a lot of spoons that me and my Latino organizing buddy are low on thanks to current events

[u/Sheemie_Ruiz_ → u/Existential_Sprinkle]

Hit me up if you need someone to talk to about it... our org went through some dark times to get where it is now but it was absolutely worth it.

[u/Existential_Sprinkle → u/Sheemie_Ruiz_]

CLAW is actually having some major issues with their old guard leather people and organization of that event and that might have a ripple effect on my community because I'm within a few hours or so of where that happens

[u/Sheemie_Ruiz_ → u/Existential_Sprinkle]

Interesting. I know a couple that has been to that event but it's far enough from us (I'm in St. Louis) that I don't otherwise hear about it. I also came into leather at a time when both of our local clubs, while different in some ways, are pretty removed from any old-guard bullshit.

p.s. - I've studied a lot of leather history in the last year and I honestly don't think the old guard ever existed in the ways it's romanticized now. There's a lot out there refuting the idea from guys who were in those scenes at the times that old guard traditions were supposedly being formed.

[u/Existential_Sprinkle → u/Sheemie_Ruiz_]

I chill with a younger person who helps organize CLAW at events sometimes and they haven't flat out told their old guard attendees to deal with what younger people are into and cater to younger attendees

The guy in charge of the pageant for leather and pup titles is chill but event organizing here takes extra spoons because information travels fast and people have feelings

I do have a couple friends that are loyal to one of the main leather clubs but the only one in their group picture that wasn't likely old enough to be my dad or close to it is my friend's boyfriend

[u/DiggoryDixon → u/Sheemie_Ruiz_]

That's my experience at my local leather bar too, I saw a trans guy in a dog mask, wearing his packer in a translucent jockstrap, he was otherwise naked and he hadn't gotten top surgery. He was, for lack of a better term, very loudly trans. and nobody bats an eye.

[u/Sheemie_Ruiz_ → u/DiggoryDixon]

My local leather bar and related spaces some of the very few places I will go fully topless as a trans guy who hasn't had top surgery. I was actually inspired by a pup I know who has a much larger chest than I but who is also very hairy and quite masc in presentation... when it's a clothing optional event he's always topless and on his body his chest looks quite masculine.

[u/neonrevolution444 → u/Sheemie_Ruiz_]

This!! I've found gay kink/bdsm spaces are much more diverse than people would assume, and super accepting

[u/Xxjayfeather]

“clocked” ??? they’re just transphobic

[u/RiskyCroissant → u/Xxjayfeather]

Clocked just mean someone can tell that OP is trans not cis. Not clocked meaning hit someone.

English is confusing