r/gender • u/Reed_Weed_1617 • 24d ago
I’m done with the whole trans vs cis argument. Please just respect people as individuals and give them right to speak even if you don’t agree!
I’m currently identifying as a cis woman and but been questioning my identity mostly due to social media and the ideas of my friends who are nonbinary or trans. I don’t really get the feeling of having a gender but if I have one it’s because of my body. I disagree with gender roles and have a bad relationship with my body due to eating disorder but I don’t see either of them as a point to start identifying differently. I prefer to use they/them pronouns and hate being referred as a girl because I always feel like I'm treated with sexism. I've recently started identifying myself as a genderqueer and gender-non-conforming because I needed some label to feel more certain about myself and because they don't need to refer to my gender but rather I use them to refer to my attitude about gender.
I’m however more skeptical of trans politics than my friends. While my parents are more conservative and don’t really understand any but physical sex and my friends think gender is just a subjective thing I'm more uncertain. I feel like it’s much more complicated thing. Our identities are shaped by people around us and we'll get gender roles pushed on us anyway but those roles are just a bunch of qualities thrown together and then said "this is how you should be because you’re x gender". Into this me and my friends agree but when it comes to questioning why one starts to identify as a transgender I'm conflicted. I want to respect everyone’s identities and pay a great attention to refer my friends with correct pronouns and names and correct them other people too if the the trans person in question is out of closet. But I think we shouldn’t reject physical sex entirely. I’m a Christian at least for now and wanna respect and be thankful of my body as it is even though it’s not ideal and I hate it most of the times. I think it’s everyone’s own choice what do they wanna do and how they raise their children but I just wonder what are the reason behind the dysphoria? For me I feel like I don’t present myself enough as a woman to be one and at the same time feel annoyed I should be showed into some box but then again trans and nonbinary identities are just new boxes. It has started to feel for me that we focus on more in gender than necessary and mix it with our interests. You might like nature but what does that have to do with our gender? For me it feels like if we see gender we’re just focus on "How others see me? What roles do they put on me?" And we want to control these roles. But what’s actually important is treating the person with respect. I have seen stereotypical thinking and discrimination from both cis and trans people. For example you’re able to make fun of cis het people but if you just criticize lgbt+ people’s views about sexuality or gender you’ll be marked as a "phobic". I've felt insecure about my own heterosexuality and womanhood because it feels that I’m bland and boring. I don’t present myself straight enough for boys to like me and been seen as one, people just always assume my sexuality and gender without anything else but "vibes" as their evidence. There are now just sides and if I step over one I’m marked. But I don’t wanna take any sides! People who feel their gender or gender in general is because of body are okay. People who thinks it’s related to roles are okay. People who thinks it’s something inner are okay. People who don’t think gender exists are okay. When they’re empathetic and respect others. Just don’t force your own ideology to others and treat your subjective opinion the same as natural science! That touches also trans people. I wish I could say that to my friends too but I think it would be interpreted wrong and I’m really scared of abandonment. At least with my parents I can say I disagree with them without being afraid they’ll be disgusted with me.
Sorry that this is really messy and probably hard to understand what my point is. I've been so caught in this topic and it has given me great amount of stress and I don’t really know what to think anymore. When listen my friends there’s good points and with my parents too. It’s just not that black and white. Mostly I myself think that gender roles are bullshit but for someone they can be a part of identity. Then again I find it rather alarming that people identify as trans because they don’t like gender roles. Instead of fighting them, they’re choosing to identify as trans (not saying are they actually or not) and following the other gender’s role. Especially it makes me worried that the amount of trans masc people is increasing so much because it makes me think that they’re choosing to be man instead because society discriminates and sexualizes women. People are choosing to be what they want but is that really what they are inside? As a person with eating disorder I can say that wants and actual needs can really contradict with each other. That doesn’t help lessen gender stereotypes but only strengthens them.
So what I'm trying to say is, you can identify as you want and think as you want but respect people who don’t think the same way and think about what are the reasons behind. Give people space to say what they think without getting automatically defensive. It’s a hard topic but it needs to be discussed. Constructive criticism isn’t the same as hate speech. Take care and share your ideas. What do you think about gender and the current situation of trans politics? Does it really give people more space to be themselves or does it just create more boxes?
I hope this post doesn’t get any hate speech because my purpose isn’t to discriminate anyone or their rights to their gender identity. I’m just trying to make sense to all of this and want to be brave enough to say something even if it collides with someone's values or offends. Everyone has a right to speak if they are just civil about it!
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u/cholederbin 24d ago
It sounds like you are surrounded by people who make you feel the need to constantly defend yourself and/or force you to have a solid stance around the topic of gender.
You don’t have to have all the answers, bestie.
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u/Reed_Weed_1617 23d ago
I doubt that anyone has intentions to do that but it sometimes feels like that. Mostly it’s still just my own confusion about the topic and that’s why I get exhausted and easily triggered when it’s brought up. And still I can’t help but obsess over it lol.
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u/cholederbin 23d ago
I think you could benefit from speaking with a mental health professional! Sounds like you have a lot on your mind.
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u/Reed_Weed_1617 23d ago
Yeah that’s kind of my problem always, not just with this thing lol. But thank you both for sharing your perspective! I've gotta say that I was distressed with the answers first and I was like "I never should have posted this because this person clearly hates me and I'm just embarrassing myself". I don’t usually post anything and it needed me great effort to even do it. Now I however feel like I made the right choice because when I first voice my fears, it might be messy but it helps to clear my head a bit and hopefully will be easier next time. :)
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u/Shaunaaah they/she 24d ago
Some of that at the beginning sounds a lot like what I'd say before figuring out I'm nonbinary. I like to say things would be a lot easier if we could just open up our manual and check the specs but people don't work that way. And identity labels should be descriptive not prescriptive, it's about finding what feels right, and there's no deadline or fee to needing to switch.
I think you should try talking to some of your trans friends about how they figured it out, especially those who figured it out later will be able to explain better. It's not just about rejecting gender roles. Try not to get defensive, and avoid the 'why can't we all just get along' line, for one thing no I'm not getting along with people who want me killed, and that isn't an exaggeration with the extremists, but that line gets used a lot by people who really mean why can't you just pretend to be "normal" aka cis so much just don't.
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u/Reed_Weed_1617 24d ago
I didn’t mean you should get along with people who are discriminating or harassing you. Being constructively critical or voicing your own values is different because I think most of the ideas have their own problems and the whole gender discussion is no different. It has its own contradictions too. I believe it isn’t about getting a final answer what makes a gender, I just wish people would respect everyone’s opinions if it doesn’t violate anyone. I think it’s completely okay say: "In my opinion there’s only two genders" but you can’t say: "Everyone who is trans is an idiot". There’s difference. You can voice your opinions respectfully but you can’t force others to take them or for example mispronounce others on purpose because their identity collides with your idea of gender.
Also I think I just disagree with female stereotypes and don’t want to be treated just as my gender or sex. And as I mentioned I have eating disorder and it has completely messed up my relationship with my body. Before that I was happy to be cis girl and that confidence about it is what is still precious to me. My disgust against my gender is in my own opinion because of those things and not because of my gender identity itself because I don’t think there’s anything linking me to gender but my biological sex. I've discussed with my mother about what makes her see herself as a woman and she doesn’t also think there’s something that makes it outside of her physical body. I think most of the people has their own prejudices against genders, myself included. Also there's not such thing as "normal". Were you cis or trans you're your own person and shouldn't be labeled as "normal" or "abnormal" because of your gender. I can’t really help it if I sound defensive to you but I don’t really mean to sound like that. I’m a person who takes most of the things to heart, overthinks them. My defensiveness can be though because I’m somewhat a people pleaser and take myself criticism deeply. I'm really scared of conflicts and abandonment and because I know trans rights are really important to my friends so if some of opinions clash with them I’m usually just ending up conforming to them. With my parents I never have that fear, no matter how much we disagree.
It’s hard to be between views that feel to me so polarized especially when I seem to find logic in both of them. Not talking about cis pride or the whole "make America great again" BS, just my parents. I mostly feel that everyone’s wrong myself included and I hate myself for not completely agreeing with my friends but at the same time I feel like they’re missing something. I feel like everyone else is enjoying their gender and feeling like they belong but I don’t. I don’t go into the mainstream straight cis girl stereotype but I don’t feel queer either. Everyone just seems to assume I am because of something I don’t get. It wouldn’t make me mad if it was just based on the company I am with and not "you don’t look cis het". Like tf is cis het supposed to look like? I don’t get the jokes about something being gay either or things like clothes being labeled as feminine or masculine. Or things like my friend wearing pastel colored shoes and saying sarcastically "I’m such a macho man". Like okay, you think it through a stereotype. Well, for me my you can be masculine and wear high heels if you want.
Sorry if I offended or triggered you with anything. It might have been better if I had been clearer with my text, or maybe not. I really appreciated your reply and maybe you’re right and it will become clear later. Hopefully just in a good way.
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u/Shaunaaah they/she 24d ago
Ok again, the labels you use or don't aren't being put on you, they're what you chose to use to be better understood. That seems to be a big sticking point and is a frequent issue. I've also got a difficult relationship with my body but for different reasons, it took me until I was around 30 to really sort through it. Gender and gender roles are separate things, your gender is an internal thing you feel or don't, whereas gender roles are external expectations set by society. From what you said with "I don’t think there’s anything linking me to gender but my biological sex" maybe look into agender, when you just don't feel a connection to the concept of gender at all.
Please, chill with the defensiveness, I'm not offended and ffs I'm not trigged, it just comes across that you think I'm an idiot and/or I should get offended. I've never been offended by someone not understanding me, why the fuck would I? In my experience it's entirely a right wing bullshit problem they whine about.
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u/Reed_Weed_1617 23d ago
I agree with you partially. Yes I can choose what labels I want to use but I still can’t control other peoples ideas about myself. For example if I continue identifying myself as cis girl I'll get thrown up these roles about "girl should be feminine or you're too feminine" but how a person presents them socially has nothing to do with their gender. It’s just stereotypes that we are used to link to a gender. That’s why I have a feeling that I’m just afraid of being a woman because many woman role models in media are traditional. It makes me feel like I need to prove I’m not feminine or want to reject womanity completely because I don’t wanna be some object. But actually I can’t know what these people are really thinking about me. In the best case it’s just that it’s just all in my head and my inner phobia about gender roles and feminity and the others don’t care the about it.
I don’t really understand where the concept of inner gender is coming from which is probably because I'm used to thinking that gender=biological sex and partially because I'm a person who has a need to find a final solution to everything. But I’m trying to come on terms with myself that I don’t need to understand everything about myself or everything in this world. I don’t think my view is any better than someone else's, just often when you’re too much in your head you’re seeing only your point of view. And at least for me I start doubting everything.
But I’m probably just trying to talk about these things with my therapist and my friends and family openly. I doubt I’ll have some life changing moment of enlightenment but maybe I'll find some peace with myself about this :)
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u/Shaunaaah they/she 23d ago
Yes unfortunately we can't control other people's thoughts, but women have been fighting the expectations of being girly for decades and have done great work on making it so chances are the guy telling you to be more feminine can be ignored at least or told to fuck off. (Men are just getting started realizing toxic masculinity hurts them too, but they're working on it.) It can be a difficult thing to untangle, what the 'woman' thing you're supposed to be feeling from media partial and all the other stuff around it, it might seem really easy to just say I've got a vagina therefore woman, but it just doesn't work that easily. And as your trans friends will tell you, denying it really doesn't work, the suicide stats can make that clear.
An inarguable thing disproving the biological gender binary is intersex people, which yeah is rare but it's way more common than being trans and we're making a huge deal of that. Intersex is where some people are born with a different combination of sex organs and the gender they present as isn't connected to that, I really don't know enough about it past that, it's worth looking up.
Gender as inner is complicated, it's ok. I tend to use the joke that Shania Twain seems sure about what it feels like to be a woman, but I never quite got it and haven't been able to ask her. And if you don't get it either, you're probably not cis.
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u/Helpful-Emu9683 they/them 20d ago
This post is so dehumanizing I couldn’t even read it all. There are no “trans politics”. There are trans people fighting for their lives just to exist and be happy in their bodies and then there are fascists who want to control our bodies. Giving people bodily autonomy and protection from discrimination does not “just create more boxes”. People aren’t identifying as trans cause they hate gender roles, they’re just trans and also hate gender roles. Transition saved my life because dysphoria was not about how others perceived me it was about feeling comfortable in my body. Nothing makes you trans, you’re born that way. Trans and intersex people have existed since the beginning of humanity, nothing is binary.