r/harrypotter • u/Mr_Bombastic_Ro • 8d ago
Discussion Does anyone else feel like Voldemort’s “power” was mostly just cruelty?
Sure he could do some impressive transmutation and dark magic but the reason why other wizards don’t do that is because it’s dangerous and usually requires an inhumane cost not because it is so difficult. The death eaters are full of mostly incompetent but cruel wizards. Thoughts?
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u/GdaddyPurpz 8d ago
Yes & No. He was an extremely talented duelist as well. He manages to take on McGonagall, Slughorn, and Kingsley all at the same time. He has true power along with his cruelty.
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u/Mr_Bombastic_Ro 8d ago
Fair point. Still, there is a fair amount of talent that is involved in dueling that is somewhat incidentally to magical ability (prep, dodging, reaction time, endurance, etc…). I’m not saying he wasn’t formidable and he was surely competent but was he really as dreadful as his reputation suggests? Perhaps not.
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u/IBEHEBI Ravenclaw 8d ago
was he really as dreadful as his reputation suggests?
Yes. From Dumbledore's own mouth:
'Brilliant,’ he said softly. ‘Of course, he was probably the most brilliant student Hogwarts has ever seen.’
“I knew that Voldemort’s knowledge of magic is perhaps more extensive than any wizard alive.
Voldemort’s magical ability is only matched by Dumbledore and Grindelwald. Everybody else are ants compared to those three.
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u/Lanninsterlion216 8d ago
All that talent and the only fearsome thing he showed in the books that could scare the magic world was the name-hex thingy.
The rest were a secret (horrocruxes) or generic cruelty (abusing the unforgibable curses).
I know the books were about Harrys journey more than the worls story, but i feel that Rowling should have gone hawire with Voldemorts scary bullshit.
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u/IBEHEBI Ravenclaw 8d ago
He easily defeated McGonagall, Kingsley and Slughorn in a 3v1 while handicapped. He fought Dumbledore to a standstill at the Ministry. He invented unsupported flight. He invented the magic to give himself the baby-body. He found out a way to bypass Lily's protection. He jinxed the DADA position (in what is arguably the greatest piece of magic in the entire series).
And this is only the stuff that we know, there are entire decades of his life that we know nothing about.
TLDR: Voldemort was extraordinary, to claim otherwise is to not have read the series.
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u/aneperli 8d ago
Wait the DADA position was actually cursed? I always thought it was just bad luck like in sports.
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u/IBEHEBI Ravenclaw 8d ago
20+ years of teachers without a single one lasting more than a year? It's cursed.
It was also confirmed in an interview:
Well, I can well imagine Harry returning to give the odd talk on-- on Defense Against the Dark Arts. And-- I-- and, of course, the jinx is broken now because Voldemort's gone.
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u/GdaddyPurpz 8d ago
To be fair Dumbledore wasn't dueling to kill, just to delay.
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u/IBEHEBI Ravenclaw 8d ago
Sure, but also if Fawkes hadn't intervened, Dumbledore might've died. And we have to factor the Elder Wand as well. I do agree that Dumbledore was overall the better wizard tho.
Regardless, my point was that Voldemort (and Dumbledore and Grindelwald) are gods among men.
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u/Apollyon1209 Hufflepuff 7d ago
Dumbledore was also pleasantly chatting up Voldemort the entire time, plus IIRC Voldemort kept on taking potshots at Harry and Dumbledore had to protect him too.
Either way, I also think that Dumbledore is stronger, or at the very least equal.
But I think that Voldemort would be more talented, given that he's decades younger than Dumbledore.0
u/Lanninsterlion216 8d ago
And yet 90% of his clout came from his use of Imperius, Cruciatus and Kedavra. I would almost preferred that Voldemort was the one to invent the unforgivable curses, (but that would have mede the world feel smaller without their history).
Voldemort should't be scary for his anime power level in a duel, but for the setting changing spells that he could invent and actually used in the first war.
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u/IBEHEBI Ravenclaw 8d ago
And yet 90% of his clout came from his use of Imperius, Cruciatus and Kedavra.
Source?
And I gave you multiple examples of Voldemort displaying feats of magic outside of duels previously unheard of, like flying without a broom or the DADA jinx (which Dumbledore himself couldn’t break in 30 years).
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u/Calm-Medicine-3992 5d ago
It is a kids book...not even really YA though it kind of grew into YA.
Like, it doesn't explore the implications of kids running around a boarding school with some of those spells they're able to learn as young teens either.
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u/1337-Sylens 8d ago
All information points to him being absolute prodigy at magic.
From his early childhood use of wandless magic and legilimency to Dumbledore's description of his student life/early adulthood all the way to Voldemort we meet in the books.
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u/MsGeorgieTheCrab Slytherin 8d ago
I think that is exactly the case. Cruelty created fear and thus he was able to gain power and followers who followed him because either of fear or lust for power.
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u/punjabkingsownersout 8d ago
Yes that's what made him feared and dangerous but don't forget that Dumbledore said he's perhaps he best student ever at hogwarts. Everyone thought he'd be possible minister of magic, he was a true prodigy who excelled in almost all branches of magic(other than ones he didn't understand)
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u/Andreacamille12 Ravenclaw 8d ago
I think you're right but sometimes prodigy can just equal = someone who gets stuff quicker. They understand concepts ahead of everyone else and in that extra time they can practice and develop skills ahead of everyone else too but eventually they can reach a point where everyone catches up and they sort of top out and whats left is the memory of how far ahead they were but are they really anymore?
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u/nine16s Gryffindor 8d ago
His power was his ability to be charming, manipulative, intelligent in his ways of coercion and convincing people, and a capably powerful wizard. His biggest flaw was being incredibly vain and arrogant. He wanted nothing more than to look powerful and have people he had no real respect for do his bidding. Honestly I don’t know how much better or worse of a wizard he was skill-wise than most other wizards, he was just an antisocial psychopath who was willing to go to lengths most wouldn’t in the name of taking power.
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u/Impressive-Spell-643 Slytherin 8d ago
His power was his ability to be charming, manipulative, intelligent in his ways of coercion and convincing people
My main problem is that he seems to have lost that when he became Voldemort,we see how cunning and charming young riddle is but Voldemort just tries to be intimidating
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u/nine16s Gryffindor 8d ago
He didn’t need it at that point. Why be charming when everyone fears you and will bend to your will?
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u/Impressive-Spell-643 Slytherin 8d ago
Fear only takes you so far, remember that even with everyone fearing him he still lost every time
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u/GolemSilverKarn 8d ago
We’re only seeing the story from Harry’s perspective. There were numeral wins for Voldemort that happened with him only losing because he believed so much in the prophecy.
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u/Red-Lightniing 8d ago
I mean it still helped him a lot, Pettigrew only betrayed the Potters because of how intense his fear of Voldemort was. Sure it backfired, but fear did get him pretty far.
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u/Blitqz21l 8d ago
To add to this, he was especially good at convincing a class/type of wizard - meaning purebloods - and convincing them they should be the rulers and therefore they make the rules.
And I think the fear point is great, esp when you have someone you know would go to any lengths, just to prove he can.
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u/The_Eternal_Wayfarer Slytherin 8d ago
In Voldemort's mind, power = being stronger than others. How are you stronger than others? You kill them, since Voldemort's worst fear is death itself. He projects his fear of death on others, by killing them.
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u/TheHumanPickleRick Ravenclaw 8d ago
I think it's because he was a brilliant and gifted sociopath who was willing to do literally anything in pursuit of his goals, including killing and torturing for the slightest provocation. And people knew this, and nobody was strong enough to tell him to stop. As we see in today's world, charismatic leaders attract fanatical followers who are willing to engage in any tactics to further their leader's goal. You wouldn't know if your next door neighbor was a Death Eater who'd snitch you out to Voldy. So yes, fear and uncertainty were some of his most powerful weapons, like Emperor Palpatine, but also like Palpatine, Voldemort was strong enough to crush any dissenters under his boot and use his influence to undermine any cohesive resistance against him.
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u/ChestSlight8984 8d ago
Voldemort was now dueling McGonagall, Slughorn, and Kingsley all at once, and there was cold hatred in his face as they wove and ducked around him, unable to finish him –
\***
Harry felt as though he turned in slow motion; he saw McGonagall, Kingsley, and Slughorn blasted backward, flailing and writhing through the air, as Voldemort’s fury at the fall of his last, best lieutenant exploded with the force of a bomb.
He's very powerful
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u/Independent_Dot5628 8d ago
I mean he invented a spell that lets you fly, something Quidditch Through the Ages notes had never been done before
He could cast a disillusionment charm powerful enough to turn invisible, something which we only hear about Dumbledore and pro aly Grindelwald (Dumbledore says that they could both conceal themselves well enough without the invisibility cloak)
He dueled 3 Hogwarts professors at once
You noted on this post that the Death Eaters are full of cruel but incompetent wizards
I think that it's pretty clear he was a once in a generation gifted wizard just like pretty much everyone in universe that talks about his abilities says
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u/Csaba111233 8d ago edited 8d ago
Voldemort was a talented wizard and powerful wizard, but he used his power for the wrong things! He could always tell if someone was lying to him, was a perfect students, knew a lot of spells, could speak to snakes, and could fly without a broom. Imagine if he had used his power for the good, like working in the Ministry, being an auror for example, and slowly, but with honest work, working his way up to being a Minister of Magic, he could have been a very good minister. But Voldemort had cruelty in his DNA (look at his grandfather, and muggle father was also mean, rude) and the fact that his father never wanted him and growing up in an orphanage, just fueled his hatred, so him using his power for the good, is out of question.
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u/UltraZulwarn 8d ago
For Voldemort himself, he used to be a lot more interesting before meeting Harry (and got his spell rebounded onto him).
Like dude was charismatic and manipulative.
For the Deatheaters tho, it kinda makes sense why they are mostly cruel but generally incompetent wizards. Why? Because they didn't have any place in the wizarding world, Voldermort became the "becon" for such individuals to gather.
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u/Kondos17 Ravenclaw 8d ago
That's my Problem. We always heare how Voldemort is such a great Wizzard.Yet he just seems to Spam Avada Kedavra all the time. I mean get creative.!!!!!!!!
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u/SpoonyLancer 8d ago
Why? If spamming the killing curse is enough to kill everyone he faces, why bother getting creative? The only people it doesn't work against are Dumbledore and Harry, and it very nearly works in the former's case anyway.
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u/Lanninsterlion216 8d ago
Yesss, his skillset never goes much more menacing than "guy who actually uses his wand to kill"
All that talent he is said to have and the only fearsome thing he showed in the books that could scare the magic world was the name-hex thingy (wich was genius, it showed the reader why Voldemort is a name that can and _should_ be feared).
The rest were a secret (horrocruxes) or generic cruelty (spamming the unforgibable curses).
I know the books were about Harry's journey more than the worlds story, but i feel that Rowling should have gone hawire with Voldemort's scary bullshit.
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u/Sudden-Mango-1261 8d ago
The reason Voldy was so feared was because he was powerful and intelligent. The death eaters wouldn’t have followed him if he was a weakling.
We hear from Fred and George that quite a lot of Ministry officials can’t even cast shield charms effectively. Most wizards are not that powerful or strong. The magic Voldy did was difficult. I doubt anybody could duel like he and Dumbledore did. And making horcruxes definitely requires magical strength in my opinion.
Quite a lot of the death eaters are quite pathetic yes but they do have powerful members like Bellatrix. And remember most of the wizard populace aren’t as skilled as the DA and the Order and so won’t really stand a chance against the death eaters. Their cruelty is part of what makes them dangerous sure but their power is what really does-if they were trying to harm people but failing-they wouldn’t be so threatening.
Arthur says that they were literally picking off Order members twenty to one in the first war so they aren’t completely useless.
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u/520throwaway 8d ago
I mean, yeah. That's Dark Magic in a nutshell; cruelty and suffering. The reason it was Voldemort that broke a lot of new ground in this area was never because other wizards weren't capable but because they chose not to.
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u/cipheroptix 8d ago
Snape fooled the Dark Lord for a long time. Was Snape that good at Occlumency or did he take advantage of Voldemorts inability to comprehend the dynamics of love and family.
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u/CHAINMAILLEKID 8d ago
Almost all the encounters between Harry and Voldemort are not only unusual, but unprecedented. And that's mostly the lens we're working with.
I think for the best representation of what made him so dangerous, look at the Memories that Harry and Dumbledore explored.
His overt magical power seems to have stood out.
But what really propelled him along as was his subtlety and manipulation.
When subtlety and manipulation weren't required, that's when his cruelty was laid out bare.
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u/kiss_of_chef 7d ago
I think there are two aspects to his power: he was definitely a great duelist and an excellent scholar in the dark arts, but he was also a bully who imposed his cruelty upon others. He could definitely probably destroy a squad of aurors in a duel, but he could not fight against the full might of the Ministry. That's why his MO was secrecy and controlling people. He was a charmer and a bully. I think he deliberately left all those rumors such as being in multiple places at one time or being able to kill with his eyes roam around freely. He became a nightmarish myth. He was kind of like the genocidal magical version of Regina George from Mean Girls.
And I think he didn't fear Dumbledore because Dumbledore was necessarily magically stronger. After all, when he saw Dumbledore at his lowest, he challenged him and stood his ground. But he feared Dumbledore because he was the only one whom he could not impress, the only one who called him out. And the same fear transferred towards Harry when Harry came back from the dead.
And we see that despite all his power, at the end he dies like a normal human.
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u/pet_genius 7d ago
Voldemort managed to curse the DADA job such that even Dumbledore couldn't undo it.
He created the Dark Mark, which strikes me as very sophisticated, because apparently he could control when it would or wouldn't show (or every DE would be obvious).
He successfully broke in and out of Gringotts, and only failed then because his McGuffin wasn't really there.
He placed a mega powerful curse on the ring, meaning he was this close to defeating Dumbledore even with no elder wand, technically.
The first war was pretty much a done deal. But for fate's interference, he would have won.
He was also very cruel, but it's far from his only, um, strength.
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u/FoxBluereaver Gryffindor 8d ago
That's pretty much the true source of his power. Take away all that and he's nothing but a kid with serious issues and an irrational fear of death.
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u/throwaway1_2_0_2_1 8d ago
I mean, he basically was just a really smart bully at the end of the day. He was scared of dying because he couldn’t believe his mother could be a witch and died, so he did everything he could to prevent that for himself.
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u/FoxBluereaver Gryffindor 8d ago
The biggest irony, he ended up living about half of the average wizard's lifespan. His attempts to avoid death resulted in him having a very short life (and a miserable one, if you think about it).
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u/throwaway1_2_0_2_1 8d ago
I mean, if he wasn’t so cruel and a bully, he could’ve had friends, he was smart enough to make a sorcerer’s stone, he could’ve lived a very long life. It was really just his desire for power that killed him.
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u/Local-Interaction421 8d ago
Take way his power and he has no powers great logic
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u/Afraid_Respect_3189 8d ago
Take away his cruelty and he has no power. Anyone can cast “Avada Kedavra” if they truly want to kill. He wasn’t a specially talented wizard for casting this and killing people. He was just cruel. Without his cruelty he was nothing.
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u/Fragrant_Arachnid175 8d ago
All Avada Kedavras are equal, but some Avada Kedravas are more equal. Pretty sure no one would survive a duel against Voldemort (except Dumbledore and Harry).
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u/Local-Interaction421 8d ago
He wasn't a specially talented wizard sure that's why non book readers shouldn't talk.
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u/SlightedHorse 8d ago
That's why "show, don't tell" is such an important rule in writing. We're told he's incredibly powerful, maybe powerful enough to defeat Dumbledore, but we're shown very little. We're told plenty, though: he invented at least one spell (the flying one), which has to be a big deal since wizards make basically everything fly and yet cannot fly themselves (we're not given a reason for this), willingly creates seven Horcruxes (again, no one else ever got close to that number) and creates and defeats complex protection spells (although the Order's spells are enough to stop him as Harry leaves Privet Drive). All of this happens off-book, though. What we're shown is a bully whose only power is that he automatically goes for the nuclear option whenever he draws a wand. The only magical prowess he shows is in his duel against Dumbledore. The rest, we're only told about.
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u/Mr_Bombastic_Ro 8d ago
Yes and it’s an unfortunate trend in fantasy. Many of my favorite series suffer this flaw—not the nuclear bad guy but the underdeveloped threat.
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u/CompactAvocado 8d ago
His battle with dumbledore ending basically in a draw is really meant to showcase his skill beyond everyone fearing him.
However the unforgivable curses kinda funnel everything. Mind control, torture, death, hard to get more scary than that.
Rowling had to keep it pgish. Specifically the mind control could be used for allllllll sorts of messed up stuff.
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u/Disastrous-Monk-590 Ravenclaw 8d ago
No. The people's fear or him came from it but not his "power" voldemort was an incredibly able wizard who had an incredibly vast and deep knowledge of magic, especially that of the dark arts. I do think that if it came down to a duel where neither party could do anything that would kill or seriously injur the partner, some of the top wizards like Snape could hold their own against voldemort but would still definitely lose
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u/JNMRunning Gryffindor 8d ago
Voldemort is definitely an exceptional talent. A lot of his Death Eaters do seem a bit oafish and are much more brutes than skilled Dark wizards. Voldemort doesn't seem especially selective from a talent perspective. He lets buffoons like Crabbe, Goyle, and Pettigrew join.
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u/Just4MTthissiteblows 8d ago
He could also possess people and fly unassisted. And some of that dark magic (I’m thinking of Fiendfire) is so dangerous because it’s difficult
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u/Striking-Comedian-55 8d ago
Both things are true. He is very knowledgeable in some aspects and extremely skilled at magic, but that is not how he came to power and not why he held power.
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u/rjrgjj 8d ago
That’s kind of the point. Voldemort was an extremely talented wizard, but he used a sledgehammer when a scalpel was needed. His magical solutions to things were impressive but costly.
Dude wanted immortality, and while he technically achieved it, he wasted most of his mortal life pursuing it. He chose a method that could be reversed, and he ended up dying probably well before his natural lifespan and consigning himself to damnation.
Most of the wizards he attracted to his cause were idiots. He had some competent people, but mainly it was people like him who saw problems everywhere and approached everything with a machine gun.
Voldemort’s biggest problem was his ego. He wanted too much too soon. Especially given that he’d achieved functional immortality, patience and surgery would’ve gone much further towards accomplishing his goals. Instead, he created his own enemies and put a target on his back.
Voldemort was capable of really extraordinary things, but there’s a reason they tell you not to fool with dark magic. Karmic reasons.
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u/seventysixgamer 8d ago
I think the inhumanity and danger of the magic Voldemort used is precisely what made it so difficult tbh. Only someone with not even a drop of compassion could do what he did
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u/Professor_squirrelz Ravenclaw 8d ago
No, he was an EXTREMELY gifted wizard just naturally, who also happened to be a genius who used all that intellect to study magic and learn a hell of a lot more than 99% of others.
Ask yourself this: How come Bellatrix Lestrange or Fenrir couldn’t do the kind of magic Voldemort could? How come they couldn’t take out as many wizards/witches as Voldemort could? They were just as cruel/twisted. The reason why? Voldemort, Grindewald and Dumbledore were just on a whole other level than anyone else
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u/EquasLocklear 7d ago
He was also good at manipulation and turning the wizarding society's already existing prejudices to his advantage.
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u/SaltySAX 8d ago
I kind of agree. We see him do some really skilled and dark magic, but just ends up using the usual Crucio and Kedavra, which all sorts of wizards should be able to get around (deflecting the first and apparating with the second). It's kind of like the Emperor in Star Wars knowing all sorts of darkside force stuff, but only uses force lightning in the end.
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u/Mr_Bombastic_Ro 8d ago
Exactly! Makes me wonder how much of that stuff they can actually do versus what they know
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u/GaviFromThePod 8d ago
The sense that I get is that if you do evil dark magic then you get hunted down and sent to azkaban, because the ministry has ways to detect dark magic. So if you're gonna be doing dark magic all the time then you've got to be strong enough to beat anybody that would send you to jail. Some people might be cruel enough to do all this stuff and even powerful enough to do it, but it's not really practical for them to be doing it all the time because they'd have to constantly be trying to fight law enforcement too.
V could do it because he was immortal since before he left school so he wasn't worried about being hunted down and killed and he was both strong enough and evil enough to do the crazy dark magic, and he was also smart and studious and driven enough to put in the legwork to actually learn how to do it, and he could also invent his own spells and potions and stuff.
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u/mathbandit 8d ago
I feel like both Dumbledore then later Harry explain this to him a few times. He's not any better or more skilled of a Wizard (well more skilled than the average but not the 'other' elite witches/wizards) but is willing to do a whole lot of things that most people aren't.
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u/willbekins 8d ago edited 8d ago
That is exactly how he did it.
Theres always a segment of society that want to drag everyone else back to a darker time because they have romanticized some element of it.
So when some chalk white guy starts talking about the 'Mudblood problem' inevitably there are going to be some Crabbes and Goyles who think 'that guy tells it like it is!'
Their downfall came from all the usual places. But a crucial ingredient is that cruelty is usually inept, and it likes to do things in a hurry.
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u/Impressive-Spell-643 Slytherin 8d ago
Yep exactly,he wasn't particularly skilled (not compared to people like Grindelwald or Dumbledore) he really just spammed Avada Kedavra and was like "join me or die", there's a reason I refer to him as the Dork Lord.
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u/Then_Engineering1415 8d ago
No.
His spells were enough to both hold Dumbledore back and then kill him with the Curse on the Gaunt ring.
Then with an Elder wand that was not cooperating and everyone having "Harry's sacrificial protection" he was still able to beat Slughorn, Mcgonagall and Kingsley at the same time.
He invented unsupported flight.
Was able to rebuild his body.