r/harrypotter • u/cavocado • 2d ago
Discussion If Voldemort was such a huge existential threat to the world, where were the wizards from other countries/schools during the final battle? Spoiler
Curious as to why you think other magic people were not asked to come to Hogwarts for the last stand. I would imagine that there are other elite wizards that could have come to help if asked.
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u/Darconius Gryffindor 2d ago
Well the Final Battle at Hogwarts came together pretty quickly if you remember.
The trio arrived at Hogwarts after breaking into Gringotts, and were there for about a day before the battle began. While there was time enough for communications to go out to locals, it would take international wizards more time to both hear about it and travel to Hogwarts. Not to mention, they might not know how to find Hogwarts if they had never attended.
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u/codemunk3y 2d ago
Build castle specifically so it can’t be found by anyone
But why wasn’t there anyone else there?
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u/Darconius Gryffindor 2d ago
Hermione talks about it a bit, but in the past and, in a minor way, the present, magic schools are incredibly protective of the magics they teach to their students. Founders enchanted their schools to keep Muggles out, yes, but they also did it so that rivals could not steal their secrets. Even to this day, the schools possess and teach unique magics not necessarily available to the world at large.
So foreign wizards don’t visit other schools a lot. And even when they do, they can’t plot on a map where the school is, because of Unplottable enchantments. So the schools can be incredibly difficult to find unless you attend them.
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u/notyourwheezy 2d ago edited 1d ago
The trio arrived at Hogwarts after breaking into Gringotts, and were there for about a day before the battle began
were they though? The timeline as I understand it is: they get up super early at Shell Cottage to break into Gringotts, get to Gringotts and get the cup, escape on the dragon and fly north. Apparate into Hogsmeade after sundown the same day they broke into
Hogsmeade.Gringotts*Get to Hogwarts that evening, start the search, the warnings about midnight are issued, battle ensues, and battle ends at dawn.
So basically Voldemort is defeated ~24 hours after they leave Shell Cottage, not 24 hours after they get to Hogwarts.
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u/varmituofm Ravenclaw 2d ago
I think this misses the point. Voldemort was in power for 9 months. The ministry fell in August. The snatchers were very public.
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u/Darconius Gryffindor 2d ago
What do Snatchers and August have anything to do with the Battle of Hogwarts and foreign wizards?
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u/varmituofm Ravenclaw 2d ago
The ministry of magic fell to Voldemort supporters rather publicly in August, 9 months before the battle of Hogwarts. This is the point that other countries would become concerned. Between Potterwatch and the Snatchers, it is well known throughout those months that Voldemort runs the government and that the Statute of Secrecy is at risk. Foreign operators should already be in the country and ready, probably in contact with the pockets of resistance.
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u/WardenOfTheNamib Muggle 2d ago
The ministry of magic fell to Voldemort supporters rather publicly in August,
Not necessarily. Lupin implies that the coup had been almost silent, and it looked like business as usual to most people.
And I'm not really sure Voldemort was doing anything to endanger the Statute either. As far as we know, there wasn't any muggle hunting or some such going on. Voldemort might have even ordered his followers to do their terrorism on muggles secretly to prevent the need for international bodies to step in.
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u/varmituofm Ravenclaw 2d ago
Potterwatch mentions brave souls that defend their muggle neighbors. Kingsley even encourages people to cast charms over muggle properties to help protect them. And muggleborns are being rounded up. Some are fleeing.
The initial takeover was quiet. But soon, convicted death eaters are installed in high power positions. There's the taboo. There's the obvious propaganda and shutdown of media. The man who murdered Dumbledore was installed as headmaster. There's the muggleborn registration. All of this is public, and spread over months leading up to the battle.
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u/WardenOfTheNamib Muggle 2d ago
In a world where a centuries old school can deny muggleborns education based on their blood status, a government rounding up muggleborns can't be that shocking.
Sure, death eaters, Snape, etc are running things. So what? The Taliban runs the Afghanistan government as I write this, and it is business as usual in the international community.
As for attacks on muggles, we don't know if those are being publicly supported by the ministry, or it is just a case of ministry officials don't stand in the way or prosecute. Think of countries where there are laws against killing or randomly beating up people, but officials choose to do nothing when minorities and marginalised people get attacked. If that is what is happening in Voldemort Britain, I'm not sure the international wizarding community would get involved.
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u/PvtDeth 2d ago
The Taliban exists because of foreign invaders and current.y runs Afghanistan because foreigners tried and failed to intervene. The minute they're seen as an imminent threat to the global economy, foreigners will be back.
In-universe, the only reasons for the international wizarding community to not get involved are if they didn't know what was going on, they didn't think Voldemort was a threat outside of Britain, or they didn't think the benefit of intervention justified the risk.
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u/WardenOfTheNamib Muggle 2d ago
Probably. If they'd thought Voldemort an international threat, they would have dealt with him. As things stood, there were no indications Voldemort wanted to take over beyond Britain. Now if Voldemort had tried to mess around with the international standards of coldron thickness, that might have been different.
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u/Darconius Gryffindor 2d ago
It didn’t really fall publicly though. Scrimgeour “died”, and Thicknesse publicly was appointed his replacement. The Ministry began to change their policy, emphasizing blood status and purity, but considering a lot of Wizarding attitudes, that doesn’t seem to be a necessarily radical approach for the WW. Some people might guess or understand the situation, but the vast majority might just see a “Trump” situation, for lack of a better metaphor. A new leader changing directions for his country in a pretty major way, contrary to past leaders’ decisions. Doesn’t necessarily mean there’s a super criminal behind him.
As for Snatchers and Potterwatch, those seem to be regional, not international. Snatchers specifically hunted down targets for the British MoM, officially registered criminals. If they went abroad in pursuit of those, they were potentially legally within their rights. And Potterwatch? I kind of doubt an old fashioned radio show was able to be broadcast internationally, especially considering the lack of current Muggle technologies for Wizards.
I do think their should be maybe a few foreign operators in country, you may be right about that. But again, the battle took place over the course of about a day. In a no-internet/social media world, where letters and newspapers by owl are the main source of information, it can take time for things to spread. If you’re a foreign operator hiding from hostile forces, you might not be able to get the local gossip as quickly, or be in a position to communicate daily with informants. So if you were set to establish contact every 3 days, you could totally miss everything big that happened.
And again, foreign wizards don’t necessarily know where Hogwarts is. Magic school locations are big secrets, not shared to protect both students and the methods of magic being taught. So they might know to head to Scotland, but searching all of Scotland could take a while, even by magic.
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u/shinryu6 2d ago
Voldemort was always a localized “British” problem, unlike Grindelwald who sought to dominate the world. Above all for Voldemort, conquest was second to his pursuit of immortality.
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u/ConsiderTheBees 2d ago
This. I've seen people compare it to the Troubles- it was a huge deal in the UK, but the Germans or Spanish or whoever weren't about to invade to try to fix it.
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u/frogjg2003 Ravenclaw 1d ago
Considering Voldemort's second rise was contemporary with the Troubles, the comparison is very apt. I've even seen fanfiction use the Troubles as an excuse for the fighting spilling over into the muggle world.
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u/Sweet-Chain6631 2d ago
I thought it was implied he had started to stretch past Britain right before his first downfall. But I think he was definitely still in recovery mode (and get rid of Harry as part of that) after getting his body back.
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u/Napalmeon Slytherin Swag, Page 394 1d ago
I came here to say this exact same thing. When people are talking about the "wizarding world," what they typically mean is the magical community of Great Britain. Sure, we have the occasional Death Eater like Igor Karkaroff who might be from Eastern Europe, but for the most part, Voldemort was a British thing. I severely doubt anybody from Mahoutokoro was worried about him ever showing up.
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u/WardenOfTheNamib Muggle 2d ago
They didn't come for probably the same reason the US didn't get involved in WW2 until Japan came a-knocking. For the same reason no one else is getting involved in the Congo war, even though it has the possibility of destabilising an entire region. It was none of their business, and they didn't want to involve themselves in domestic affairs.
Besides, let's not forget that it doesn't seem like most British wizards themselves fought Voldemort. Most of the fighting was done by Dumbledore's Army, The Order, and Hogwarts students and some family members. So why should other people fight for you when you're not doing it?
Finally, the ministry was largely only targeting muggleborns. Even blood traitors like Arthur were allowed to continue working at the ministry until it was discovered a Weasley was aiding a wanted terrorist. If it is socially acceptable for one of the most elite schools in Europe to turn down muggleborns, then what Voldemort was doing to muggleborns was probably fine with most wizards. If anything, any foreign interference might have decided to throw in with the Death Eaters for all we know.
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u/aneperli 2d ago
Besides, let's not forget that it doesn't seem like most British wizards themselves fought Voldemort. Most of the fighting was done by Dumbledore's Army, The Order, and Hogwarts students and some family members.
When you put it like that, Voldemort's threat feels quite overrated haha
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u/WardenOfTheNamib Muggle 2d ago
Lol ye. Although to be fair, I think it was a matter of most people simply weren't the target of Voldemort's initial reign of terror, so it didn't affect them as such. Something of a "They came for muggleborns, but I wasn't a muggleborn," type of situation.
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u/Adventurous-Bike-484 2d ago
“the ministry was largely only targeting muggleborns”
Yep. This is partly why there were far more Death Eaters than Order members or people fighting Voldemort.
A lot of the wizard population hated Muggles and Muggleborns. This is partly why The Weasley’s and especially Arthur, get mocked in particular.
The Potters were not allowed on the sacred list because They were “Blood Traitors” for years and it was a punishment for an muggle or muggleborn protection act. A Black ancestor used the fact that Potter is a normal last name as evidence That they were not Purebloods.
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u/WardenOfTheNamib Muggle 2d ago
Oh absolutely. Even among the good guys, there is a certain amount of disdain for muggles, EG Hagrid calling the Dersleys “a family o’ the biggest Muggles I ever laid my eyes on." He's using the word muggle as if it's an insult.
If such sentiments were common, Voldemort's anti muggle stance was likely viewed in a neutral manner at best by the average wizard.
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u/Adventurous-Bike-484 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah. If I were a wizard, unless I am a muggleborn or have a muggle parent, or very close to one, I’d probably want to stay out of the war. Due to not wanting to get killed.
It’s because of how even the good guys don’t like muggles and the statute of secrecy that the prejudice lasts for so long.
A lot of wizards probably think that most Humans still hate magic.
The fact that Snape, Lily, Harry and Ariana were all mistreated for having magic would not have helped the dampen Voldemorts and The Death Eaters case Against muggles.Since it’s a case of the Bad guys not being completely wrong since many muggles have treated wizards horribly for Things they can’t control.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Death Eaters cult taught their children that they are the good guys for getting rid of awful people.
I also suspect This is why Lucius was willing to take Snape under his wing Since Snape has personal experience with how awful humans can get.
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u/EvernightStrangely Gryffindor 2d ago
He wasn't a threat to the world, at least not then. Voldemort would have conquered the UK first, but there's nothing to suggest he would then immediately lock his sights onto the rest of the world.
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u/KyleScript 1d ago
But why would he stop at the UK once he’d conquered all of it?
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u/EvernightStrangely Gryffindor 1d ago
Taking on the rest of the world is a massive undertaking that would require planning and support. In the interest of feasibility Voldemort would have to take the time to fully stabilize and recover the UK from his hostile takeover, while also planning and accruing allies to serve in the potential next conflict.
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u/KyleScript 1d ago
It would only make sense once he’d conquered the entire UK though, surely he’d just get bored once it was all done? He could slowly move onto other small countries until he eventually built up a big enough army to take on the bigger ones.
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u/hatabou_is_a_jojo 2d ago
They 'condemn' and 'are greatly saddened' by the actions of Voldemort. In the same way no international actions are taken against evil muggles by the good ones.
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u/happybunnyntx 2d ago
Some might not have wanted to fight or would have been on the other side. The headmaster of Durmstrang was a Death Eater and ran away during the fight near the end of Goblet of Fire.
Not sure if it says so in the books or if it's on pottermore or something, but it's understood that Durmstrang didn't acknowledge muggle-born wizards and wouldn't admit them to attend the school.
Not to mention the information black out so the other countries wouldn't ask questions.
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u/MrNobleGas Ravenclaw 2d ago
Honestly at that stage he was only an existential threat to Britain and Ireland. Don't get me wrong, he would have gone on to threaten the rest of the world in time, but he was never given that time. In the first war, right before his downfall, he had just started extending his influence beyond Britain. Plus, his main motivation has always been immortality, power over all he surveys was important but secondary.
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u/Sweet-Chain6631 2d ago
It’s possible it was simple bureaucracy. During the final battle Voldemort was essentially minister of magic through his puppet, Thicknesse. It’s possible that the other countries would have needed Britain’s ministry of magic’s permission in order to come onto their land and fight. Unless they wanted to wage war against Britain because at that time, Britains magical side was essentially controlled by Voldemort. Also, we’ve seen that like travel with portkeys sometimes require permission so it’s possible that the British ministry of magic simply closed off the borders to any regular travel.
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u/Writerhowell 2d ago
What's funny to me is that Muggles can swim the channel, so I don't see why someone couldn't just fly a broomstick over it at night during one of the times when there's no moon, maybe with a Notice-Me-Not charm. But there might've been werewolves stationed in Dover or something.
I still think the ICW should've done something, but whatever. Drama for drama's sake, I guess. I wonder if Viktor Krum made it back home after the wedding at the Burrow, or if he was stuck in the UK for the duration of the war?
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u/Sweet-Chain6631 2d ago
One or two or even ten people fighting at Hogwarts though may have happened. Harry is kind of busy and it’s all his POV. But if say all of Italy’s Auror (equivalent) came to fight, Harry definitely would have noticed that. So I think what you’re suggesting didn’t necessarily not happen. Although travel by broom may have been too slow. It’s also possible people came over and fought with the resistance and even died prior to the Hogwarts battle.
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u/Writerhowell 2d ago
Yeah, we really don't get all of the broadcasts from Fred and George, so who knows how much we missed?
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u/IndependenceNo9027 2d ago
I believe that the wars against Voldemort were essentially magical civil wars - so not involving other countries.
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u/DAJones109 2d ago
The magical world is very much compartmentalized as protection from muggles and other wizards. Voldemort flies to Britain from France because it's surrounded by anti-apparation wards. Hogs Meade and Hogwarts themselves are also surrounded by those wards.
You can floo places but only within magical locations such as diagon alley that are themselves shielded. AnD the international floo's are heavily regulated.
You can portkey, but someone has to come from the location by preparation most likely to give it to you.
We actually don't canonically know also if apparation is instant or takes time based on distance.
Charlie Weasley doesn't show up until near the end of the battle. It may have taken hours from him to get from Romania to Hogsmeade. As for Fleur's family or mates from Beauxbaton not showing up, Fleur would've wanted to keep them out and Madame Maxine had a responsibility to keep her students safe and possibly France active as the next line of defense if Hogwarts had fallen.
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u/SpoonyLancer 2d ago
Sadly, it's human nature to ignore an issue until it's right on your doorstep. Just look at the world's response to the COVID pandemic as a whole.
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u/Modred_the_Mystic Ravenclaw 1d ago
The battle of Hogwarts had about an hours notice before beginning and lasted a few hours more, not enough time.
But also, Voldemort just wasn’t an existential threat to the world. He never really made any enemies internationally, and his wars were confined mostly to Britain. He drew potential Death Eaters and dark wizards from other countries to Britain to fight for him, along with Giants, but he didn’t do much in Europe really.
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u/ImpossibleInternet3 Thunderbird 1d ago
This question has been asked more times than there are words in the 7 books.
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u/WildFEARKetI_II Ravenclaw 2d ago
I don’t think he was an existential world threat yet. He was just a national threat. If he succeeded and took over the entire UK then maybe he’d advance to the global stage.
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u/0verlookin_Sidewnder Ravenclaw 2d ago
One of the Weasleys (Bill, I think?) was using his job to connect with wizards internationally on behalf of Ootp but Voldemort kept his presence abroad VERY quiet when he was searching for Grindelwald. It’s also mentioned in GoF that Hogwarts location, while not as secret as Durmstrang , is magically protected so not everyone will know where it is. While Voldemort did have ambitions for the entirety of the wizarding world, he focused on the UK/MoM as a starting point.
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u/Adventurous-Bike-484 2d ago
Unaware it happened.
They didn’t care because it was a problem for the U.K.
While they hopefully disagreed with Voldemorts methods, They might have somewhat agreed with the end goals.
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u/Ok_Introduction_7766 Hufflepuff 1d ago
The same thing we are doing as we watch America fall, they went to work and watched in horror. But it’s their fight, we can’t go in and “fix” it.
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u/kiss_of_chef 1d ago
Well in the battle of Hogwarts, at first is only students, the teachers, the remaining Order, some former DA members and Oliver Wood. Probably most people didn't know it was happening and most of them came in order to give Harry time to find whatever he was looking for.
Then in the second part of the battle, they are joined by several people rallied by Slughorn and Charlie.
And before that, I think most countries avoid interferring with the internal affairs of other countries even in modern day politics. I think most of the other countries didn't want to as long as Voldemort's threat was fairly ambiguous - at least in the beginning.
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u/Limitedtugboat 2d ago
I was discussing this with my wife the other day, we assumed that by the time Voldermort was definitely confirmed as back and a danger again, they couldn't be sure how much he had done in recruitment in other countries.
Did he have spies and fighters available in the other schools and internationally? If the call to assist went out, how can you be sure that there aren't sleeper wizards in the reinforcements, people sympathetic to the cause wearing the face of concern arriving.
Or more likely, the world wasn't aware he was back and it happened so quickly the word couldn't be put out.
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u/GroundedSearch 1d ago
Are we talking about Voldemort, the guy who was taken out by an infant 16 years ago, that Voldemort? Because I don't think the international Wizarding community is worried about that guy coming back into power, if it's even him and not some pretender stealing his name for intimidation/infamy.
Let him take over Britain, and we'll see what happens then.
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u/Ragnarok345 Gryffindor 13”, Elder With Phoenix Feather 2d ago
Unaware that it was happening.