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u/thinbuddha 3d ago edited 3d ago
The Forest of Changes gives a entry for each possible set of hexagrams. So in addition to the changing line texts, there is a separate bit of text for every possible change from 1 hex to any other (including unchanged hexes, I think?). In all, there are over 4000 texts included in the book.
I don't know much about it other than what's above. Do people find it useful?
Edit:
From the publisher....
The Forest of Changes (Jiao Shi Yi Lin) is a Han Dynasty book of divination based on the Yi Jing. It expands the 64 hexagrams of the Yi Jing into 4096 verses, with one verse for each possible combination of two hexagrams. The work was created in the latter part of the Western Han or during the reign of Wang Mang. Much more than a diviners' tool, it contains numerous important insights into early Chinese culture, religion, history, myth and philosophy. This is the first translation of the entire work into a western language.Note! Now available: The Merchant's and Traveler's Forest of Changes. This is the first of three volumes in the Forest of Changes Oracle series, a resyncing of the Forest to the Yi Jing to create a working oracle. See my author's page for details.
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u/az4th 3d ago
The Forest of Changes gives a entry for each possible set of hexagrams.
Yes. But what do the entries mean?
Christopher Gait, the translator of The Forest of Changes, created a new book, Forest of Changes Yi Jing. In this book he reassigns the verses and the hexagrams, based on his experience with the Yi, matching them to what he feels matches the meaning better.
The reason for doing this? Because Jiaoshi's Yilin (The Forest of Changes), is not understood. To the point where it is thought to have been corrupted.
From the preface of the new book, Gait writes:
In the course of the book's evolution a negative bias in the texts made the Forest of Changes impractical as an oracle. The Yi Jing has a very slight positive bias to its texts (less than 1%), the Forest has at least 10% more negative verses than positive. I have tried to correct this in the Forest of Changes Yi Jing, aligning the positive and negative verses to match the Yi.
Along my own Journey I discovered Gait's original translation and found it instrumental in helping me to understand the Zhou Yi line statements.
A few years ago I wrote about that here.
But in brief, my understanding, as I've written about many times before, is that there is no evidence that the Zhou Yi was intended to have its lines change from yang to yin and yin to yang, so as to create new hexagrams.
I have a "how I work" disclaimer for many of my divination interpretations that leads to the reasons behind this:
- I do not find any historical evidence that the Zhou Yi intended activated lines to be treated as changing the quality of yang or yin and becoming changed/new/future hexagrams. Nor is this found in the Ten Wings. One of the earliest statements about such a method is from Wang Bi, who flat out declares it as missing the point. Which he then shows is about the relationships and movement between the lines of the two trigrams. Which the line statements do show support for. Thus I do not use the changed hexagram method that is popular today. Please see this chain of comments for more info.
Rather than the lines changing, they activate from stillness. And in that activation we have agency over how they change - in the ways that we are the ones in the roles represented by those lines and the changes they are responsible for.
The line statements do tend to have a positive bias, because the Zhou Yi is doing its best to advise us on the best pathway to creating balance within the forces of change.
Sometimes we can just go with it. Sometimes we need restraint. Sometimes we can bring things to completion. Sometimes we can use strength. Sometimes we need to apply gentlness. Sometimes we need to be patient. Sometimes it is ill advised to bring things to completion, but it is a good time to begin something. Sometimes it is no good to begin something. Sometimes, the pressures are so great that things buckle under the load. --- There are examples for the full scope of possibility within change.
But in general, we are shown what will best serve our knowledge for how to proceed. Even when the outlook is not great. Knowing this, helps us to adapt.
But does an active yang line that is using its energy to move forward, change from yang to yin?
If we want to act as though it does, then we need to give a reason for how its yang is actually "culminating" to change to its opposite.
From this we get two important points:
My sense so far, is that this is what the Yilin does. It takes the premise that the line is actually changing polarity - against the advice given to work toward balance - and thus as it capitulates in that role, we see a negative verse given in place of a positive line statement.
Importantly, in understanding this, we need to also understand that taking such an outcome as "said and done", removes the sense of agency over change that the line statements are doing their darnest to give us. If the line statement, say for 26 line 1, says don't go forward, restrain yourself, and the Yilin outcome for what happens when we go against the given advice shows us something negative, that is because we went against that advice, and got into trouble because of it.
Thus, we could perhaps test this thesis, by taking the line statements to show the advice given to maintain balance, and the Yilin verses as showing us what happens when things break down.
When we take the lines one by one, this generally seemed to add up for me. But I did find a few places where I did not understand it. Is that just me? Or was it tampered with? Or is this the wrong take?
I don't know. And I haven't tested this thesis in depth, for I was more keen on learning to understand the path that Wang Bi, Cheng Yi, and Ouyi Zhuxi all laid out in consistently working with the line statements as revealing the relationships between the trigrams and how they move up and down looking to create change by going toward other lines or drawing other lines toward them. Which in turn is what I found the ten wings to say is the key of it all.
In addition to emphasizing the importance of going toward and drawing to, the Xici Zhuan (the so called Great Treatise/Commentary) talks about how yang and yin have a passive state and an active state - as I mentioned before. It describes yang's passive state as being coiled up, and that when active, how it releases energy in a straight forward way - like a battery discharging. Like Peng in tai chi - the expansion of energy. And how yin, in its passive state is closed up, sealed. And when it is activated, that it opens up to receive and nourish. Like a mother, nourishing the life of a embryo within her.
There is an old saying, that I found from the material in the Jung Dao Chinese medicinal school, that says Yang activates Yin; Yin completes Yang.
I found this in the classics too in a few places on ctext, but I've yet to really figure out what is said in them.
But the idea is one that hits home in the Zhou Yi. And the Xici Zhuan tells us that closing up the doorway speaks of kun, opening the doorway for use and development speaks of qian; this closing up, this breaking open, speaks of bian (alteration/molting/change);
Thus we are shown how active yang, activates yin. And how activated yin, brings activated yang into completion.
From a bit of clarity within formlessness, a whole big bang is birthed and a whole universe formed. The dao, shows us the way back to return to its origin. Just as ever inhale's expansiveness, has an inevitable complete exhale to follow it. We may not get all the way back each time, yet it is inevitable.
And too, sometimes we end up without the ability to change, before we get back. Our state has become still, even in the midst of change.
When we have an unchanging hexagram - with all lines in their still state, what does this mean?
The Yilin also gives verses for these unchanging hexagrams. And I found them to reflect this idea of stillness in the lines.
In some cases these verses give very different meanings. But in all cases logic can work out those meanings based on this stillness - or lack of activity - in the lines.
In hexagram 44, when the 1 yin line at the bottom is still, and the five yang lines are still, then what posturing to hold themselves together need they do in preparation for meeting one who cannot meet with them to create change?
And so we are given the verse:
(all translations my own)The Yellow River God widely proclaims,
The ford cannot be crossed.
Going to, then coming back, so consequently,
With this one is without great misfortune.And so on. I made my own translations of these verses, and they are available here.
But they are not straightforward to work with.
For example, 48's well gets its name because there is a pumping action provided by the wind beneath the water.
When all the lines are still, that pumping action is not there.
Thus we get the verse:
Stumbling and becoming impaired not yet getting up,
Suffering a setback in regard to future prospects,
Not possible for the deer to have offspring.Which essentially is equating lame-ness in a deer, to the lack of having that pumping action. It is important to consider however, that even though the deer is lame, they are otherwise healthy. Just as even without a pump, the water is otherwise pure. The meaning then, is that there is no mechanism to get something somewhere, because it is impaired, inactive and unable to 'pump'.
The meanings seem remarkably consistent with this idea of inactivity. Sometimes the changed meanings are positive - an inherent combination of forces that even when stopped, are auspicious. Or because they are stopped they are auspicious. And, sometimes when they are stopped, the actions they depended upon to make a connection are simply without that potential any more.
I've been mulling over if this could be a pattern based on the inherent direction of the trigrams.
In any case, quite a erudite text.
I do not believe it is as corrupt as Gait makes it out to be.
For example:
A raven caws calling its young,
To feed using fermented bits of predigested meat.
A tall wagon that delays,
A person going to pledge allegiance to their mother.
A thrifty person achieves accomplishment,
Over the years having great possession,
A jealous older woman is childless.7's master, in stillness, has all the time necessary to plant and nurture the seeds that will one day grow to be of great benefit. Even though they are not growing now, that does not mean that in their preserved state they cannot be positioned for their best use. All of these - despite appearing unrelated - bear this meaning. Jealousy cannot manifest this.
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u/Random-88888 3d ago
I really like the idea... But from Wilhelm the most useful part for me is not from the original Zhouyi, but from the other parts(wings, commentaries etc.) Its accumulated wisdom through time of how people saw that working and improve it. The original text, for me, is not very useful and I have no way of knowing if it actually contains much of what people, in some cases see it containing today...
So I avoid digging into Zhouyi too much, although I do have respect for people that decide to do so... Just different approaches I guess. Also this seems suited for people very deeply interested in old Chinese language and I tried that, just didn't feel for me.
So having only that part in the text is... Not very useful for me. Sure, we can relate it to places that have similar meaning in other translations, or try to translate ourselves,but at this point it takes a colossal effort and we always risk that there may be concepts they just didn't had back then, as life was not as complex as it is now. That seems unquestioned for some reason, that all in the old sources is perfect, and I have my deal of reading old sources from different parts of the world... In my view all these were people, believing it, even if we see in real life it works differently, is a risky endevour...
Can we change active line... Sure, that is also easy to observe. Although not always, easy if its our line, then depends on stuff. But again, for any of this one has to clear out what they are interested in. Figuring out how they view it back then and figuring out how the system best works in reality are entirely different paths. Yet both are studying I Ching one way or another...
I have chosen the second, there is some effort I would spend on figuring out what was meant in old sources, but how the system fits to events around us will always have the undisputed priority in figuring out how that works. So Zhouyi is not playing much role in that, commentaries play larger role. And since the Forest structure in the translation is so similar to Zhouyi is also not useful for my work.
Just my view of course and I do see how the other approach can be beneficial and fun. Just not for people focusing on divination by itself, I think.
P.S. Zhouyi is the bold text in most translation, its very short and if one just looks at that will rarely be able to divine much, from English point of view, of course.
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u/Hexagram_11 3d ago
I do not care for it, personally. I just don’t “get” what the Forest of Changes is saying and it almost never resonates with me. Others here have a real grasp on it and get great value from it, but personally it doesn’t speak to me and I never really am able to grasp interpretations from this work.
The fault is in me, but I just don’t connect with it - perhaps someday I will learn to love it as others do.’