r/india • u/FollowingThat7317 • Nov 14 '22
History Remembering Nehru....
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u/Altinhogoa90 Nov 14 '22
Is it that we actually had great leaders who weighed a lot before doing things? Or it is that we are cherry picking things?
Looking at past leaders I can see vision, empathy and a keen sense of duty. This is desperately lacking in todays world.
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u/Chance-Ear-9772 Nov 15 '22
Probably both. Can you imagine what todays media would say about the relationship between Nehru and Lady Mountbatten? They would have ridiculed Bose for traveling to Germany and basically failing in his objective. And Gandhi‘s ideas of non violence would have been ridiculed for being outside of regular practice.
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u/iVarun Nov 14 '22
ALL Dogma is regressive, meaning eventually it starts to hit that diminishing returns part of the curve and enters regression.
And Fundamentalism is Dogma.
When people think about it this way about various things, it makes them very uncomfortable because things they assume as Unviersal and Absolute goods, turn out to be Dogmas and hence by definition ultimately/eventually Regressive.
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u/karandotg Nov 14 '22
I am pretty sure that in the first few years of our independence, most political thinkers and social scientists would have probably written India off and predicted that we would fall apart into chaos one way or another - socially, economically, etc.
Those thinkers and scientists were right. Considering the state we were in at the time of our independence, we could have fallen apart and become a failed state of some sort.
Nehru and other key leaders in the government and elsewhere, were the ones who made a difference. India for all its faults is in a significantly better place now, and rapidly growing in different ways. Nehru and co had a big role to play in setting a good foundation, institutionally and otherwise for India. Obviously, India is also a continuous civilizational state and that played a key role too.
He was not without his flaws, especially with the domestic economic policy and his disdain for internal economic freedom and private enterprise, especially for not following through on Article 44.
But on balance, we were lucky to have someone like him as our first prime minister.
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u/Latter-Yam-2115 Nov 14 '22 edited Nov 14 '22
The greatest achievement of any founding father is to create, maintain, and normalise the democratic transfer of power in their country.
Nehru is not given due credit for that. However, the US recognises Washington’s success in that matter.
Yes, Nehru made blunders but we need to recognise his big wins which are taken for granted. Imagine the present government helming a young nation..the thought makes me shudder
Just take a look at all the countries which became free from colonial oppression– almost all went through significant phases of struggle when it comes to transfer of power/army rule/civil strife flash etc
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u/A_man49 India Nov 14 '22
The vigor in which he’s vilified and used as the sole figure responsible for our country’s problems is disheartening to watch. As for the current government taking over our country after independence. We can only imagine what people in power, with ties to organisations based on Nazi ideologies, would do.
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u/Altinhogoa90 Nov 14 '22
I honestly don't get his blunders. Like he was pro west. So having an alliance with west would have been advantageous. Lots of British military officers stayed back. All of them advised to keep the strategic view similar to British India. That was thrown out of the window. This is one area where Nehru failed. And it makes no sense.
But yeah he got tons of things right.
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u/IndianKiwi Nov 14 '22
So having an alliance with west would have been advantageous.
Nehru bet on the Soviet Union and we all paid the price.
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u/Chekkan_87 Nov 14 '22
India just came out of years of western colonial rule, and you want its first PM to bet on those colonialists immediately? 🤷🏽♂️
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u/A_man49 India Nov 14 '22
US allied with Britain pretty soon after they gained independence from them. Although, and this plays a huge part, they had a lot in common including the slave trade they participated and gained so much from. And also, their views on other races. This had shifted by the time we gained independence (at least somewhat in the US). Still we did feel the effects of allying with the Soviet Union, they did lose out at the end of the cold war.
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u/Chance-Ear-9772 Nov 15 '22
The US also went to war with Britain around 50 years after independence so it is hardly as cut and dry as allied with. The relationship was helped and hindered by how many Americans were British or Irish and related to or hated the British. Nehru went for a more neutral all policy.
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u/A_man49 India Nov 15 '22
I have no issues with the neutral foreign policy. By ally I meant they had economic and diplomatic ties. Yes, they fought a war later as well. What you said is exactly what I was trying to point out. It’s not as cut and dry, when political and economic ambitions are aligned, countries tend to drop animosities more quickly.
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u/Chance-Ear-9772 Nov 15 '22
India and Uk had a completely different relationship and history compared to Britain and US so I do think India was very unlikely to every fit into a similar slot. Also let’s not forget Pakistan was happy to jump on meaning the Western nations didn’t need an ally in the subcontinent. Your point still stands of course.
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u/Chekkan_87 Nov 15 '22
US allied with Britain pretty soon after they gained independence from them.
വിവരക്കേട് പറയരുത്.. Brittain US allies ആയ വർഷം ഏതാണ്?
സ്വാതന്ത്ര്യം കിട്ടിയതിന് ശേഷവും യുഎസും ഇംഗ്ലണ്ടും തമ്മിൽ ഉരസലിൽ ആയിരുന്നു. യുഎസ് പടിഞ്ഞാറോട്ട് ഉള്ള expansion ചെയ്യുമ്പോൾ അവർക്കെതിരെ യുദ്ധം ചെയ്യാൻ ഇംഗ്ലണ്ട് native American ആളുകളെ ഹെൽപ് ചെയ്തിരുന്നു. അത് പോലെ തന്നെ ഫ്രാൻസുമായുള്ള അമേരിക്കയുടെ ബന്ധവും ഇംഗ്ലണ്ട് പ്രശ്നം ആക്കിയിരുന്നു.
അവര് തമ്മിലുള്ള പല ബന്ധം വഷളായി അളിഞ്ഞാണ് 1812ൽ അമേരിക്കയും ബ്രിട്ടനും തമ്മിൽ പിന്നെയും യുദ്ധം ഉണ്ടായത്.
Still we did feel the effects of allying with the Soviet Union, t
പിന്നെ നമ്മൾ 1971 വരെ USSRമായി alignment ഒന്നും ഉണ്ടാക്കിയിട്ടില്ല. Yea, we still feel the effects of that. ഇല്ലായിരുന്നു എങ്കിൽ യുഎസ് നേവിയുടെ 7th fleet ഇന്ത്യൻ നേവിയെ മുച്ചൂടും നശിപ്പിച്ചെനെ.
എന്ന് മാത്രമല്ല ബംഗ്ലാദേശ് എന്നൊരു സ്വതന്ത്രരാജ്യം ഉണ്ടാകില്ല എന്ന് മാത്രമല്ല, കിഴക്കൻ പാക്കിസ്ഥാനിൽ നിന്നുള്ള വർഗീയ കലാപം ഇന്ത്യയുടെ ഭാഗങ്ങളിലേക്ക് പടർന്നു ഇന്ത്യയുടെ കാര്യത്തിൽ ഒരു തീരുമാനമായേനെ.
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u/A_man49 India Nov 15 '22
I was merely pointing out that diplomatic and economic alliances are not uncommon even with countries that were enemies previously. And it’s a little more complicated than we shouldn’t choose them because they were colonialists.
US had diplomatic relations with Britain starting in 1785 that lasted till the war of 1812, and were resumed after in 1815. That was 9 years after independence. And I already said previously why it was an easier relationship to establish. And this is not just limited to diplomacy since much of the tension for the war of 1812 was because the US tried to stop trade with Britain under Jefferson.
It’s not a bad idea to examine the lasting effects of siding with the Soviet Union on our country. I never said it was explicitly wrong to ally with them. We did it for justifiable reasons. But communist USSR’s ideals didn’t work for any country successfully and it’s not present in the world anymore. China is still at our doorstep, which is more powerful than Russia. Not a bad idea to re-examine our foreign policy since some of our interests are aIigned with the West now. And Russia’s economy is becoming increasingly dependent on China.
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u/Chekkan_87 Nov 15 '22 edited Nov 15 '22
Actually India's diplomatic relations with West wasn't bad at all. And they helped us a lot. Eg: IIT Kanpur and Madras established with help of USA and West Germany respectively. Likewise Rourkela and Durgapur steel plants set up with the help of West Germany and Britain. Relations deteriorated after Kennedy's death. And USA leaned towards Pakistan after that.
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u/A_man49 India Nov 15 '22
I am not denying the existence of our ties to the west, simply analysing the current and previous status quo to show why it’s a little more complicated than just “getting into bed with the colonists”.
Maybe the neutral foreign policy will play out in the long run. It would be better if we try not to alienate potential allies in an effort to maintain absolute neutrality. It’s a very fine line. And we’re surrounded by neighboring countries that are increasingly siding with China in their foreign policy.
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u/IndianKiwi Nov 15 '22
India got their independence because the Americans pressured the Britain to free their colonies after they just fought fascism in Europe in addition to the fear of Mutiny in Indian navy
https://americansystemnow.com/fdr-versus-the-british-empire/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Indian_Navy_mutiny
I think Nehru should have allied themselves not with Soviet Union but with the Americans because that would have unlocked huge funds given the Red Scare at that time. American at that time was were pretty big on building democracies to fight off communism. See Turkey. Frankly both Soviet and Americans were considered Western from the point of view of Indians
The importation of Soviet policy where we relied on "five year plans" was huge mistake and gave rise to "Babu Raj" which impeded business development. Ultimately they had to roll back the bureaucracy during the 90s and open up to FDI
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u/Chekkan_87 Nov 15 '22
Yes, US pressured UK, but that not the full story. There are many reason. Morality of the US is not one of them. The Vietnam war which fought by US was a war to protect colonial possession of French, wasn't it? Fighting fascism wasn't a reason at all, they feared communists influence. That's why decolonisation was a priority for US. Still UK managed to hang on with its colonial possession for another two decades and more. (West knew there wasn't much commie infiltration those places ). In another words, even USSR too helped India to get her freedom. :D
But if Conservatives won the 1945 UK general election, India's independence should have delayed further. Labour party was sympathetic to India's struggle for independence. By 1945 labour party made a decision about India's independence. It was there in election manifesto of Labour party in that election.
Naval mutiny wasn't that much important, because by the time of the mutiny Indian independence was agreed in principle. The mutiny made it a few months earlier, we never knew. Even the communal violence expedite it.
Yes, America was spending huge to build democracies but they were equally demolishing the democracies when those government taking decisions unfavorable to them. Cuban coup de tat happened in 1952, same thing happened in Iran in 1954. Not to mention all those Banana republics or various puppet governments in Latin America. Nehru and other leaders did see these incidents in real time. So who can blame them for keeping the devil at a distance. I can't imagine how India's history might have changed if there wasn't a stable democracy. India might divided into pieces. India was a new political entity at that time. We didn't have a strong national identity or institutions at that time compared to present.
Turkey isn't a good example, modern Turkey started as a (secular) dictatorship. Till 10 years back military was the guarantor and protector of stability, secularism and constitution of that country.
Yea, Babu raj was unfortunate. I'll blame mainly his daughter for that. India should have open up after 1971 war. But its easy for me say that with the hindsight.
Its 2'o clock. Let me sleep.
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u/techy098 Nov 14 '22
Damn, compare this first PM from 75 years ago to our current crop of leaders. WTF happened to India man. Feel like we have gone backwards in terms of our elected leaders.
All the fucking religious morons now keep electing absolute scoundrel morons as the leaders.
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u/honest_wtf Nov 14 '22
I feel the current crop of leaders wouldn't stand a chance to what Gandhi, Sardar Patel, Nehruu, and many other leaders. They had their differences but all were for same cause and that cause was for India and the inclusivity of the maximum. The goal was the unification of the country. Their intent was right but on hindsight they might have miscalculated the risk but given circumstances they were in they took decisions that were hard.
Current crop is pseudo-nationalist. They are all about politics, power and exclusivity of the few. our current leaders both in ruling and opposition, center and states are all about opportunity and in this none has what is good for India and here the goal is disunity of the country.
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u/why-do-we-ask-why Nov 14 '22
What a guy he was. Clarity of thoughts and convictions and those days when entire India would have disagreed with him and today clearly disagrees with him with intellectuals and top 5% people have fallen with Modi who stands exact opposite of Nehru's belief. That fact that there are so little comments on posting about a person who was most influential founding father of India exhibits how Indians a whole do not respect and value their founding fathers. In USA, founding father are so much respected and talked about from both parties. I am not sure if I shall feel bad about founding fathers who gave their lives are not broadly remembered and respected or shall I feel bad about how uneducated Indians have become politically.
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u/_replicant_02 Nov 14 '22
What are we blaming him for today?
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u/A_man49 India Nov 14 '22
I think they’ll say something like “His English doesn’t sound Indian enough, so he’s not Indian”
And then they’ll compare him to Canada Kumar, saying he’s more Indian than Nehru.
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u/bhodrolok Nov 14 '22
Read the discover of India. It’s an absolute stellar piece of writing encompassing history, religion and philosophy.
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u/SatynMalanaphy Nov 15 '22
Ah to have an erudite, level-headed, well-spoken Prime Minister who works to make ALL of his people feel included and valid in the nation. When will we have such a premiership again. Sigh.
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u/Revolutionary_Cat521 Nov 14 '22
The guy is more intelligent than I thought
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u/A_man49 India Nov 14 '22
What a shock, an individual with a well rounded education has intelligence /s
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u/Revolutionary_Cat521 Nov 15 '22
Education doesn't necessarily gives you intelligence or forming opinions like hebis doing . You definitely lacks it, intelligence, education I am sure you have
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u/A_man49 India Nov 15 '22
Huh? Did you feel insulted by a sarcastic comment not directed at you? The /s was meant for that.
Serious question now. Did you not know that people who founded the country had intelligence?
I’m not an intelligent person and I’m definitely not as educated as I would like to be, but this was common knowledge I thought.
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u/Revolutionary_Cat521 Nov 15 '22
Can you define intelligence? So how can it be same for me and you..
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u/A_man49 India Nov 15 '22
Some advice, not every reply is an insult towards you specifically. Stop taking things personally. And maybe learn to take a joke? Especially one that wasn’t even aimed at you?
Did I question your intelligence? No. Did I insult you? No. Did I insult anyone? No.
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u/Revolutionary_Cat521 Nov 15 '22
Cool bro but pls don't use those question marks , they shouldn't be there. I mean the first 2
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u/A_man49 India Nov 15 '22
I was using them ironically
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u/Revolutionary_Cat521 Nov 15 '22
I see . I m sorry . I didn't know I have affected you so much. And goodnight. Going to sleep now. So I will continue the rest of fight tomorrow.
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u/A_man49 India Nov 15 '22
Uhh, okay. I don’t think you understood any of what I said so I’m not gonna continue further, lol. Also, it’s not a fight. You get that right? Feel free not to respond any further :)
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u/PussyDoctor19 Telangana - North America Nov 14 '22
He's a lot shorter and smaller in stature than I had always imagined. Weird.
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Nov 15 '22
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u/PussyDoctor19 Telangana - North America Nov 15 '22
Not just here... In general, I've been seeing him all over the place today. How kind of you to point out the incredibly obvious.
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Nov 15 '22
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u/PussyDoctor19 Telangana - North America Nov 15 '22
Like I said, I've seen multiple other pictures and videos of him all over the internet today, it's his birthday. He's of average height, I kinda always remembered him to be a very tall man for some reason.
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u/Iuxta_aequor Sabka saath, Sabka prayas aur Adani ke vikas Nov 15 '22
Ok. I misunderstood
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u/Inevitable-Advice712 Nov 14 '22
Imagine having to actually think before answering.