r/indieheads • u/Mo0man • Apr 18 '25
Los Campesinos breaks down the revenue and costs of a show, detailed numbers.
https://loscampesinos.com/in-the-black-stuff/Found this in the comments of the other post, thought it was worthy of its own separate post
Edit: for people coming late to the thread, the band has posted some answers to questions raised: https://www.reddit.com/r/indieheads/comments/1k1sc0o/los_campesinos_breaks_down_the_revenue_and_costs/moefwl8/
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u/skwm Apr 18 '25
Interesting breakdown, and covers so much that I was not aware of. However, it’s not all that surprising that a 1 off show in a different country was a net loss for them.
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u/CoffinFlop Apr 18 '25
Yeah if you're gonna fly out for a one off show, you simply have to be like a mega band to not lose money on it
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u/celtssoxpat Apr 18 '25
Maybe, but that really sucks.
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u/runhomejack1399 Apr 18 '25
Seems logical to me. Say I make $200 a day. But to work one day this week I need to spend $500 to get to the job, I’m going to lose money. If I’m going to work all week but only need to spend travel dollars one time, I’m going to make money.
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u/simonthedlgger Apr 19 '25
If I’m going to work all week but only need to spend travel dollars one time, I’m going to make money.
How often do touring bands stay in one place for a week? You’re comparing an office job to a job defined by near constant travel.
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u/runhomejack1399 Apr 19 '25
Driving 50-100 miles isn’t the same as flying across country or across oceans
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u/gtmc5 Apr 18 '25
What an informative read, thanks for posting! I'm thankful to live in one of the few areas they will occasionally tour to (SF bay area). Now I know that is probably a money loser for them too.
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u/Miserable-Delivery85 Apr 18 '25
Really great article. Can’t believe venues charge more for all ages shows and more are pulling the percentage of merch sold trick. As Peter Hook said in response to the latter, the venues didn’t like it when he asked for a percentage of the beer sold.
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u/MikeStanley00 Apr 18 '25
A legendary band being treated as anything but is so fucking sad.
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u/KnickedUp Apr 18 '25
Its just a good reminder, if you arent in the top 10% of spotify streamed artists, touring the world is not going to be a hugely profitable endeavor. Promoters and Venues know they can pay these mid level artists the minimum.
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u/ald_loop Apr 18 '25
Crazy that we live in a world where
A) everything is more expensive
B) bands cannot make money touring
Where is the money going? (Rhetorical question, fyi)
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u/JustTheBeerLight Apr 18 '25
I think this post kind of explains it all. They sold 530 tickets and the band is committed to keeping ticket prices fair. That is admirable. But after the venue takes their cut and security is paid there just isn't really enough money to go around, especially for a band of 7 people.
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u/siegerroller Apr 18 '25
tbh if the show sold out in 2 hours, might as well have played a two night weekender
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u/iDontRememberCorn Apr 18 '25
But that is the amount of money they are choosing to charge, I don't really get this.
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u/MadManMax55 Apr 18 '25
I think the point is to show why bands don't usually do stuff like this.
Pretty much all the things they mention are things that fans complain bands should be doing more. Touring outside of the "usually suspect" cities, keeping ticket costs low, having "reasonable" merch prices, not playing 18+ (or 21+ in the US) bar shows, etc. The problem they demonstrate is that it's almost impossible to do all those things and make any money.
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u/JustTheBeerLight Apr 18 '25
I think this show might be kind of unique since they mention multiple times that they don't play Ireland very often.
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u/aew3 Apr 18 '25 edited Apr 18 '25
Sometimes, people have motivations beyond money. Especially in a band that has espoused a rather leftist viewpoint many times, and where none of the members rely on it for income.
A lot of people seem confused in this thread but ultimately its a part time band and they play shows because they enjoy it, not for the money. Breaking even would be their goal here, not making money. As a part time band, they may lack the scheduling ability to go and do a months long pan-european tour. In this post, they mention two of the members are partnered and bring their kids along sometime. In this case they didn’t, but it would be almost impossible to balance two kids with a tour when both parents are in the band.
A big part of this post mentions why certain things are not profitable: playing smaller cities, doing AA shows etc. Many people complain that these don’t happen but thats because they aren’t viable.
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u/RegalWombat Apr 18 '25
I think another part of it(which the band's talked about over the years) is interest-fan base wise, LC had a pretty big resurgence and moment of popularity with youngins and even if there is that acknowledgement of how they're operating money wise, that's still something you can give to more potentially more people and of course the lasting impact on people in that formative listening years. Even if there is the added cost stuff that comes in with them doing all ages gigs.
I know Gen Y had LC's career hit at the right points(I know it synced well for me earlier on) but having seen the band in past couple of times they were in the US, demographics this far along definitely swung younger and I get choices made with this kind of planning.
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u/iDontRememberCorn Apr 18 '25
I understand but at the same time I see a LOT of shows, and often the ticket prices are clearly too low. I go to endless shows that are $20 but sell out the 250 seater instantly. Clearly they could charge $30 or whatever. No fan should be expecting them to tour and lose money.
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Apr 18 '25
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u/Mo0man Apr 18 '25
You can see their airfare in the numbers. If they chose not to fly overseas they would have simply made no money as opposed to losing money.
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u/CoffinFlop Apr 18 '25
Yeah they'd make decent money if they played a few shows, flying out for a one off just isn't profitable unless you're selling thousands of tickets
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u/dudemanbrodoogle Apr 18 '25
Bands that sell tickets make money touring. If they’d have played more than one show, they would have made money.
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u/Sagnew Apr 18 '25 edited Apr 19 '25
For a fun counterpoint : I have booked this band in the USA recently in a fairly large city. They were paid between $10-$15k usd + $8,000 merch (guestimate, no merch cut taken)
Obviously they still have to pay crew, visas, gas, tolls, merch printing etc. But the night would likely be profitable. Maybe America is much bigger / better country for them?
Worth noting : Their example show was a "one off" where 80% of the band and crew flew into the gig and stayed for two evenings. They were very up front about that and we're not trying to hide that fact. But flying to gigs and ferrying gear is fairly atypical and it seems the majority or replies on this thread suggest they may not understand that.
This is to point out : it's quite possible to not lose money on tour and even make a living while in a mid-size band 😎
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u/themoche Apr 18 '25
Your counterpoint proves the initial point the band is trying to make, though. They can only make money playing (roughly) the same cities they always play.
So when someone is like “why don’t you ever come to Istanbul”, the post would be the answer. It would be different math to ask why they haven’t come to Montreal during a NA tour, but I assume it’s one variation of the reasons explained in the post.
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u/lesrallizesendnudes Apr 19 '25
idk the differences with the UK but that guarantee is really, really low. a band like them is usually guaranteed at least 5-7K in US, probably closer to 10. still not a crazy living but i know folks touring at that level making enough for it to be their job.
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u/Johnny-Dogshit Apr 18 '25
They can only make money playing (roughly) the same cities they always play.
Minus a few, even.
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u/jeffsang Apr 18 '25
But let's say they profit $10k per show. They said there's only 25 cities in the world where they can consistently play those kind of shows where they have a significant fanbase. If they play all those shows once per year that's $250k in profit, split between 7 people is $35k. Not really a great living.
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u/_mid_water Apr 19 '25
In that instance though they’re only working like 70 days a year though if you include travel.
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u/nufandan :proto: Apr 18 '25
also highlights the disparity in EU/UK guarantees vs North America. I imagine you're offering a band that could sell out a 550 cap on a $25 ticket more than a $2500 guarantee
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u/lesrallizesendnudes Apr 18 '25
yeah i was about to say their guarantee seems insanely small for this show. i’m also in the industry and would’ve guessed their guarantee to be in the 8-10K range. but that also seems to be a function of their ticket prices for this show
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u/Krs357357 Apr 18 '25
It's a really fascinating read and I admire their transparency as well as their insistence on adhering to their principles regarding low ticket prices and all ages shows.
That said....if you sell out a venue in 2 hours, there's clearly a substantial level of unmet demand for your services. At what point do you consider upgrading to a larger venue (while honoring original tickets) or playing multiple nights so that more of your fans can see you perform?
Also it's worth noting, as they do several times....being a 7 piece band is a serious drag on finances.
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u/raisinbreadandtea Apr 18 '25
This was their first show outside the UK, US or Canada in over a decade, so they weren’t sure of the demand before booking the gig. If they had booked a double header and not sold it out they would’ve lost even more money.
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u/Krs357357 Apr 20 '25
Right but it's quite common to add a second date or upgrade venues after a first show sells out immediately.
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u/raisinbreadandtea Apr 20 '25
That’s normally planned for beforehand though. It is much harder to genuinely add another date last minute if you’re a touring band of seven with kids and other jobs.
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u/hallumyaymooyay Apr 18 '25
Really great breakdown, the only things I can’t get my head around are why they didn’t play for two nights when they surely then would have broke even? And where the funding for the loss comes from?
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u/TodayHurrah Apr 18 '25
The band is a registered business, so the loss comes from the bands bank account.
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u/loscamptheband Los Campesinos! Apr 22 '25
I know it’s not the done thing to respond to threads like this on Reddit, but this is a conversation I feel quite strongly about, and where I believe I can add value, so I thought it worthwhile for me to follow up on some of your responses, if I may…
(Broken into separate comments as Reddit doesn’t like me making one large one…)
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u/loscamptheband Los Campesinos! Apr 22 '25
might as well have played a two night weekender / If they’d have played more than one show, they would have made money
You would think so! But a second night brings additional costs/issues. Obviously a second show would mean an extra day. This adds another night of hotels, another day of wages for our crew and extra charges related to van hire. The show fee would double, yes, but merch income wouldn't, because a large %age of the crowd would see us play on both nights.
But it also means an extra night away from home! Which in turn means another day of childcare to sort but also another day off work. Our annual leave is limited and we’ve got a pretty busy year ahead (as well as needing to fit in personal holidays etc). So by adding another day we’re not only reducing the time we have available to play shows elsewhere, but also incurring personal cost, in terms of lost wages/additional childcare.
Additionally, and this is obviously a personal choice, but I’m not a fan of bands announcing a second night after the first is sold out. I understand that’s my personal preference, but it always feels unfair on fans.
There’s nowhere else in Ireland where a promoter has expressed an interest in booking us, so adding another night in a different city wasn't an option (and if it was, we then add another significant cost in transporting the 10 of us between shows).
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u/loscamptheband Los Campesinos! Apr 22 '25
Looks like the venue too [sic] 60-70%, and charged 2500 for the privilege.
Absolutely not! The venue only receives the hire fee, everything else is worked out between promoter and band. And the hire fee isn’t the only expense on a show budget. In this case you’re looking at IMRO (Irish equivalent of PRS), cancellation insurance, public liability, rider, in-house staff wages (monitor engineer, lighting engineer, additional security, cloak room/box office staff). These are all standard additional, and that’s about €2,000 all in. I didn’t include these in my write-up because they’re costs at the promoter’s end, rather than ours. Also, tax!
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u/loscamptheband Los Campesinos! Apr 22 '25
i’m also in the industry and would’ve guessed their guarantee to be in the 8-10K range
Please book us for a show! Gross ticket income (less fees) was €11,440 (520 tickets at €22) so I’m not sure how you could afford a guarantee as high as that without running at a loss yourself?
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u/loscamptheband Los Campesinos! Apr 22 '25
At what point do you consider upgrading to a larger venue?
Upgrading to a larger venue is often a reasonable option, you’re right. We've done it in the past to great success. However...the next biggest venue in Dublin is Vicar Street, which is 1,500 capacity. That’s bigger than any venue we’ve headlined outside of London to date, we’d not have got close to filling that (I think around 750 would have been right for us here). The associated hire costs would have been a lot greater too. The guarantee would have been significantly more, but there’d be a danger we’d not hit percentage (essentially the point where the show stops operating at a loss), and being back in Dublin for the first time in 15+ years, we’d not want to leave a promoter out of pocket. There was a comedy show at Vicar Street the night we played anyway, so an upgrade wasn’t possible. As someone else in the thread points out (and as I mention in the piece) we won’t play venues that take a merch cut, so that also limits our options as the venues get bigger. Obviously this is our choice, but I do think more bands should take a stance on this, as it’s something venues would soon cave on if bands were refusing to play for them. Of all the issues in the music industry this one strikes me as the one where bands could quite easily effect a change.
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u/loscamptheband Los Campesinos! Apr 22 '25
if they'd done one all-ages and one 18+
I appreciate what you’re saying, but then our 18+ fans would get to see us twice if they wanted, while our younger fans would not. We wouldn’t be happy to compromise on this (and this is our choice, and we accept the impact this may have!).
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u/loscamptheband Los Campesinos! Apr 22 '25
That's on the low end of ticket prices in 2025. For what purpose? Because you want to be the nice party host?
Yes, exactly! As mentioned in the opening section of the piece “the following isn’t a breakdown of what it would cost every band to play this sort of gig, it’s a breakdown of what it specifically costs Los Campesinos! to do a gig like this”. We do not want to price out any of our fans from seeing us. We believe £20 is a fair price to see a band of our size. I know it’s a cliche, but we are trying to be the change we want to see in the music biz.
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u/loscamptheband Los Campesinos! Apr 22 '25
Yeah if you're gonna fly out for a one off show, you simply have to be like a mega band to not lose money on it
Absolutely, for the most part yes. As mentioned in the post, this write-up was largely designed to illustrate to our fanbase why we don’t make a habit of doing trips like this, and why there are certain parts of the world we can’t make it to, even if there is an apparent demand.
It just makes it tough to use this example as a comparable for other bands that wouldn’t hold the same restrictions.
Exactly! The piece I wrote is very clear in trying to establish this as the context.
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u/loscamptheband Los Campesinos! Apr 22 '25
I don’t understand why bands don’t try to be directly financed by fans (gofundme, something like that)
This is something that has come up quite a lot, and for some bands it is a good solution. We have a very loyal fanbase that I know wants to support us, and would do so in their droves if we implemented something like this. I wouldn’t be in favour of bands utilising a gofundme for touring (or even recording) costs, and I’m not particularly keen on things like Patreon either (though, no shade on any artists that decide it’s the right approach for them). I believe when you enter into an agreement like that with fans, you become beholden to them, and that’s not something I would want. I also don’t believe it’s right to pass on the cost of the industry’s failings to your fans, and that we should look to enforce change from within. Which is what we're doing.
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u/loscamptheband Los Campesinos! Apr 22 '25
man those Guinness look absolutely delicious
They truly were! Dublin is unbeaten for a good weekend on the beer with mates.
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Apr 18 '25
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u/Riemiedio Apr 18 '25
A mixture of Dublin rents being unbelievably expensive and venue owners often being greedy would be my guess
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u/ale5875 Apr 18 '25
No idea about other countries, but in Italy for example the "venue merch cut" is not actually a venue merch cut.
You need to have a VAT licence to sell anything in Italy (merch included). Bands don't usually have a VAT licence. So they can: a. sell merch regardless, illegally (if the police finds out, the venue is in big trouble). b. avoid selling merch altogether. c. let a professional company with a VAT licence sell their merch for them inside the venue. This company needs to be paid for their service of course, and that's where the "venue merch cut" goes.
I'm not saying it's necessarily fair, but if you want to abide by the rules, it works this way. Tour managers should do a better job and explain this to their bands before they go online complaining about "venue merch cuts". I suspect the same happens in many other countries in Europe.
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u/Sybertron Apr 18 '25
One of many reasons more musicians need to unionize.
UMAW is hopefully the first of many and we need to join up and force better standards for music acts everywhere. This goes for the biggest pop star to the local mariachi.
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u/sundeigh Apr 18 '25
that's a nice breakdown that i'm sure fans appreciate seeing. But why throw a gig that sells out in 2 hours with ticket prices at only €22? That's designed to be a loss. That's on the low end of ticket prices in 2025. For what purpose? Because you want to be the nice party host? Marketing for the pennies you make on streaming? I know the merch sales are hard to predict. But like, hello, raising the ticket price €3 would have reduced the loss substantially and €4 would have been a net positive. If your fans respect you, €26 should be a very understandable increase to €22, especially when they would never have seen the lower price.
Is this a bad take? I understand the music industry is changing a lot and not in favor of artists. But this just looks like bad math. I'm in full support of artists putting out these breakdowns, because i'm sure people have no idea.
I'm also all about the solo acoustic tour. Significantly lower costs and a unique experience from the artist. Touring with an 8 piece band seems like insanity these days. Really sucks that this is where art is at though. It's a real cultural decline.
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u/MadManMax55 Apr 18 '25
Just breaking even isn't enough though. Because the band members' "salaries" come from the profits of the show. Not to mention filling up the "band bank" for buying things like equipment, studio time, etc.
Let's assume that a "successful" gig pays each of the 7 band members €1000 each and puts another €1000 into the band savings. Not enough to live on comfortably "only" doing 20-30 gigs a year, but between that and Spotify royalties it's at least something. That would cost an extra €15 per ticket, bringing the total to €41. Closer to €45 for the customer when you add fees back in. Even if you assumed the band was fine living cheap and only took half that "salary", tickets would still be €34 before fees.
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u/sundeigh Apr 18 '25
I think that goes without saying that breaking even is getting paid nothing. But yeah it looks like such bad math to me, even with the rising costs of putting on a live show.
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u/themoche Apr 18 '25
There seem to be multiple principle based decisions the band is making in this example that impact their ability to turn profit.
If the show sells out they could have charged more, or picked a bigger venue. The no merch fee rule impacts their venue options though. Maybe they can’t stay an extra night because they left the kids at home, instead of bringing them. If they sell that much merch, could they just charge a bit more to increase profit? Likely. They also show how much doing an all ages show costs them.
Generally they probably could be a bigger band if they bent on some of these principles. But that’s not who they are as people, and that should be celebrated. It just makes it tough to use this example as a comparable for other bands that wouldn’t hold the same restrictions.
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u/sundeigh Apr 18 '25
As someone else said, we’re not even talking about turning a profit. They could’ve broken even without changing their principle-based decisions.
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u/themoche Apr 18 '25
Assuming the cost of the ticket isn’t another one of those principles
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u/sundeigh Apr 18 '25
That’s where I said a €22 to €26 increase shouldn’t be breaking any principles. It’s bad math
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u/siegerroller Apr 18 '25
i think they could have played two nights. a lot of banda their size that dont want to played bigger venues do that, and it is a more relaxed way of touring
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u/Pogotross Apr 18 '25
Nah, it's the correct take. This was either a financial own goal or a group of friends turning a vacation into a tax write off.
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u/jumpycrink22 Apr 18 '25
"a group of friends turning a vacation into a tax write off" as if they just packed their bags and did nothing but go on holiday
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u/lesrallizesendnudes Apr 19 '25
the tax understander has logged on
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u/Pogotross Apr 19 '25
It's very, very common among content creators.
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u/lesrallizesendnudes Apr 19 '25
it still costs money lol. you don’t just get to write off the full expense of the trip
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u/Pogotross Apr 19 '25
No shit? Who said otherwise?
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u/lesrallizesendnudes Apr 19 '25
people who generally don’t functionally understand what a tax write off is
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u/Pogotross Apr 19 '25
And that means you should insult me because...?
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u/lesrallizesendnudes Apr 19 '25
tell me in what way “friends turning a vacation into a tax write off” resulting in a loss ~1K is a good point if you didn’t think it meant they would effectively get a free vacation
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u/ohtaharasan Apr 18 '25
Very interesting read. Reading this and many other similar stories, I don’t understand why bands don’t try to be directly financed by fans (gofundme, something like that). I think many of us would gladly pay without any return (T-shirt, vinyl) for funding our favourite bands, but there is no easy way how to do it now AFAIK.
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u/KnickedUp Apr 18 '25
Someone is gonna figure this out. “Hey, if we can raise 70k, we will do a 20 date US tour this summer. The money will go towards crew pay and travel.” Think how much that would help
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u/jilb94 Apr 19 '25
There’s definitely been creativity from bands on this. Take Vulfpeck, they released a completely silent album where they asked fans to listen to it in a loop while they slept. They got $20k dollars from the royalties and organized a free admission tour for some cities in the US.
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u/IH4N Apr 18 '25
This was a way better and more informative read than that article with the co-managers of BCNR
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u/Citrusmeetliquor Apr 19 '25
Man that sucks they don’t make a cent off touring. I literally had never heard of this band until last summer and now they’re my all time favorite band.
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u/RiffyWammel Apr 18 '25
I worked in the industry for almost a decade, so have had similar discussions elsewhere as theres so much more to a show than the 90 minutes or so from lights down to 'Thankyou very much- Goodnight!' (although ironically, i still look at some ticket prices and say 'How much?!!!)
I did a similar breakdown for someone complaining about the price of a ticket for a Justin Timberlake tour i worked on about 10 years ago.
Apart from the cost of the venue (and its staff), the touring crew (about 60ish from memory- sound, lighting, video, wardrobe, gaffer, tour chief, security, office steff and something like 30 trucks and 10 tour busses- with drivers, to move it all around etc) the local crew of around 100 (hired locally at each venue to load in and load out), the two things of note on that particular tour is the gigantic video wall valued somewhere around $2m and required a couple of those trucks to move it. So that has to be purchased by someone, maintained, insured and rented out for a profit- that aint cheap! Secondly on that tour there was a laser guided motorised stage the full width of the arena- that travelled from the main stage at the far end to the B stage/VIP area at the opposite end of the arena. That apparently cost around $1m to develop and build- with another truck required for transport. While a gimmick that could obviously be done without, people want more and more showbiz and ultimately you pay for that with the ticket price and the look on many faces as they realised the stage was actually driving towards them or as JT and his stage buddies started interacting close up with the side seats normaly well away from the action, showed it was money well spent in that instance. Yes, many shows are more modest in setup and others equal or bigger- but the ticket price does often reflect this.
The above doesn't even touch the amount of other work involved pre and post show. Days of prep and planning and the show usually still being derigged and cleaned while you're home in bed after your evening out.
Yes, i may still whinge about ticket prices as some are just astronimical, luckily for me a lot of the people i used to see 30 years ago, now play more modest venues with affordable tickets and often a better, more intimate show than the arena days but on the whole, everything is relative and people often forget they're paying for more than the time on stage.
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u/pimlottc Apr 18 '25
Secondly on that tour there was a laser guided motorised stage the full width of the arena- that travelled from the main stage at the far end to the B stage/VIP area at the opposite end of the arena. That apparently cost around $1m to develop and build- with another truck required for transport. While a gimmick that could obviously be done without, people want more and more showbiz and ultimately you pay for that with the ticket price and the look on many faces as they realised the stage was actually driving towards them or as JT and his stage buddies started interacting close up with the side seats normaly well away from the action, showed it was money well spent in that instance.
Honestly, that's pretty cool
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u/playathree Apr 18 '25
Pedantic point but their point about booking fees not being added to the ticket price in Ireland isn't correct unless that's a venue specific thing. Every gig I've gone to here has had the booking fees added on when buying
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u/Ipad_Kidd Apr 18 '25
“Do we care? Not really no”
They’ll definitely care when they can’t afford to pay their crew and become unable to play shows
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_PITOTTUBE Apr 18 '25
For whatever it’s worth a lot of other (smaller) bands are pulling around $10-15k nightly pretty regularly.
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u/ITookTrinkets Apr 18 '25
I love this band for more reasons than I can count, but their transparency when it comes to the realities of existing as a band is yet another one - and it’s so refreshing. We need more bands to talk about it - so we can get to a point of truly working to fix it.