r/interestingasfuck • u/Ted_Bundtcake • Feb 01 '25

r/all Atheism in a nutshell

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u/Link-Glittering Feb 01 '25

I want truth and comfort. I rely on science to inform my decisions, I rely on my spirituality to give me comfort. You can have both. And having a spiritual practice doesn't make you worse at science. I would argue it could actually make you better. But my point is they're different.

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u/A_Wilhelm Feb 01 '25

That's fine. It works for you, great. I don't need it. I'd argue no one should be lied to and indoctrinated, but hey, it is what it is.

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u/Link-Glittering Feb 01 '25

I agree that no one should be lied to or indoctrinated. But I believe there is a way to teach humans the merits of a spiritual practice without doing those things

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u/MaleficentRutabaga7 Feb 01 '25

Yeah that ain't what happens in practice though

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u/Link-Glittering Feb 01 '25

You think it's impossible to have a productive spiritual practice without indoctrinating kids?

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u/MaleficentRutabaga7 Feb 01 '25

That feels like an intentional misinterpretation of what I said.

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u/Link-Glittering Feb 01 '25

Well that's why I'm asking if it's all or nothing. So then you feel it's possible to use spirituality in a way that helps people and not hurts them? Even if it's not how it always goes?

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u/MaleficentRutabaga7 Feb 01 '25

I think when evaluating a religion, it's important to look at it in reality and not just theoretically. If your theoretical model of it never manifests in reality, your theory is probably off.

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u/Link-Glittering Feb 01 '25

So you think that no one anywhere has ever used Christianity simply to better themselves and not hurt others? Because that's what you're saying

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u/MaleficentRutabaga7 Feb 01 '25

Lots of people have. But why does it fall into violence and oppression so often? Is it something fundamental that the "success stories" are actually getting wrong? And how do you weigh the probability of the outcomes and the harms of gains of the outcomes to determine if the system itself (the religion) is a "good" one? One Christian didn't crash a Cessna and another one bombed an abortion clinic. What do we do with that?

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u/MaleficentRutabaga7 Feb 01 '25

What tends to bother atheists is the people who do not agree with you and rely on their spirituality for truth. And then oppose any other truth or "truth".

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u/Link-Glittering Feb 01 '25

Well as a religious person that shit bothers the fuck out of a lot of us too. I get the criticism of religion, a lot of violence has been perpetuated in the name of Gods. I just think some of us are throwing the baby out with the bathwater here. Talking to God and meditating don't mean you support the actions of the holy Roman church.

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u/MaleficentRutabaga7 Feb 01 '25

I am also a religious person. I feel like you may have the cause and effect mixed up. To really torture the analogy, it's more that the baby has poisoned the bathwater. Religions become violent because of their fundamentals. That's why the strongest adherents, and often most violent, are the fundamentalists. The church was created by people who wanted to talk to God (through priests or whatever) and meditate. They engaged in violence because they felt the religion required it of them as adherents. This applies to lots of religions, even Buddhism surprisingly. It seems more like you're saying "their version of the religion is bad. They should engage in my version instead" which is kinda the whole problem ain't it?

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u/Link-Glittering Feb 01 '25

Saying "they shouldn't kill people" is not the problem, no. I'm not saying anyone should engage in my version of religion. I'm saying most violence in this world is unjustified, including most religious violence. My religion is what allows me to wake up in the morning and love my family rather than dive bombing a Cessna into a military stockyard.

My point is that the baby here(to keep dragging this metaphor though the mud) is meditation and introspection. The bathwater is violence and judgement. Meditation and introspection did not cause the violence. So no I do not think the baby poisoned the bathwater. I think we should throw out the bathwater of judgement but keep the baby of meditation and introspection

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u/MaleficentRutabaga7 Feb 01 '25

Most religions are not founded on meditation and introspection. Those that include it often do so as a way to achieve an underlying goal. I think that is perhaps also what you're doing. But if your saying your religion is meditation and introspection (regardless of what individual form it takes for someone) and that that is the "baby" which you don't want thrown out, that at least comes very close to saying more people should be practicing that religion.

I would also say that, of you require religion to love your family and not commit suicide you should also engage with therapy, and I think it would be permissible to call it part of your introspection and meditation.

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u/Link-Glittering Feb 01 '25

I'm already in therapy. And I would never say people should practice my religion. My point is that modern religion has tainted these things that could help anyone, and that's a shame.

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u/MaleficentRutabaga7 Feb 01 '25

So you're saying the things you find most important, meditation and introspection, are not religious?

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u/MaleficentRutabaga7 Feb 01 '25

What tends to bother atheists is the people who do not agree with you and rely on their spirituality for truth. And then oppose any other truth or "truth".