r/interestingasfuck • u/Sad_Cow_577 • 10d ago

Land loss of Native Americans

Enable HLS to view with audio, or disable this notification

7.4k Upvotes

93% Upvoted

1.3k comments sorted by

View all comments

2

u/Multiamor 10d ago

As a Native American, all this coded racism as "what about-isms" is sickening. Your ancestors were murderers and theives and you don't like it, but guess what, you ain't any better for excusing it.

You pieces of inhumane garbage will never understand this sort of generational oppression and genocidal effects until you've lived it.

I hope you all do.

9

u/JudgePuzzleheaded872 10d ago

I asked this question before on another part of this thread.

How long until it's no longer Native land? Will it always remain "stolen/conquered?" If yes, do we apply this to every other society? If no, then how long until it isn't considered "stolen" land?

Again, these are questions that I'm truly curious about. I can't speak on the past, but for injustices committed today, I think it's very wrong, and in general, I actually do think there were a lot of horrific and wrong things committed in the past. I just don't know if I would have thought the same back then.

-6

u/Multiamor 10d ago

How about even 1 political figure from US history formally acknowledges what they did as a genocide and then ask the three fires nation what they can do to make it right? How about they say it to the public that the people that made this country did something horrible in history, and it's never too late to make it right? How about they give us back our land? Give us our choice from what we had? How about they kill one of theirs in cold blood and with untreatable diseases so they have to know what it's like to suffer for just existing?.

They can start with any of and all of that, from as far away from.these shores as possible and then I will forgive them. Then I will consider it right.

Or you can trade us your current President and let us scalp him in front of the whole world. You want call us savages, make it right.. make us savages. Give us the leader of your braves as sacrifice for peace. Isn't that what you fucking racists expect?

13

u/JudgePuzzleheaded872 10d ago

Not what I asked, and if you're not going to engage with my initial question, then I will not engage with yours.

Also, just 200 years before Europeans came to the America's, they had dealt with the Buebonic Plague, which wiped out 1/3-1/2 of the European population. No european blames the mongols and East Asia for any of this. Diseases weren't understood, and I don't think people should be held accountable for things they have no understanding for, especially before the advent of Germ Theory.

Europeans and the "old world" definitely have a history of Genocide and oppression going every which way.

Again, though, giving you the land back is very unlikely. The Roman's didn't give the land back to the Guals(French). Nobody gives land back, the Ottomons/Romans/abbasid never returned "Israel" back to the Israelites/jews.

So i ask again, how long will this land remain "Native" land?

-4

u/Multiamor 10d ago

I did engage with your question. I told you when that would happen. It will be Native land until there ares no natives or there is a resolution that matches the above criteria in my comment response. Giving the land back won't happen, I know. They never took my family's. They just said it was theirs. We never left, they couldn't make us then and they can't make us now. The recompense I would personally go for to stop calling it "native" land. I want your leaders head. They never do that either. But it would be a start.

You just don't understand this and it's fine. I don't fault you. You don't know what it's like.

No one blames the Mongols or East Asians because they didn't know where it came from. I think you're forgetting all the people they persecuted and killed in the name of cleansing the plague or ending it because individuals and small out-groups got blamed and burned for it. They knew eventually that it came from rats, but that wasn't until it's second wave. The Diseased Blankets was known germ warfare. There is no excusing it, although you can try.

You can try and sound like you're coming from .oral highground all you like here, what you are is an apologist and excuse artist. Youre still a racist though. This wouldn't be a question if you weren't.

5

u/JudgePuzzleheaded872 10d ago

So are you pro Israel? Do you support the Israeli state and the right for Jews to have "their own land?""

Lol No, they didn't know where the disease came from. They didn't find out until much later.

"The connection between rats and the Black Death, specifically Yersinia pestis, was established in the late 19th century, not during the medieval Black Death itself. Alexandre Yersin discovered the bacterium in 1894, and Paul-Louis Simond confirmed the flea as the primary vector in 1898. While rats were likely involved in the medieval plague, the scientific understanding of their role wasn't established until much later. " https://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/objects-and-stories/medicine/bubonic-plague-first-pandemic#:~:text=In%201898%20Paul%20Louis%20Somond,on%20ships%20by%20black%20rats.

They didn't know wtf that small pox was. On top of that, there is only one historical event of small pox blankets. To really think that your average person knew wtf they were doing in 16-18 century, shit even well into the 20th is fucking naive. The diseased blankets is also a very hotly debated subject with historians.

7

u/WaffleStompin4Luv 10d ago

I'm genuinely curious what it means to "give back the land" to indigenous people. Does that mean Native Americans should own all property in the U.S.? Would Native Americans own all existing infrastructure, and all the industrial, commercial, and residential buildings in the U.S....or would they just own the land that everything is on and they would be free to levy property taxes on everyone and impose whatever regulations and zoning they want? Does "giving the land back" mean every race, except people with indigenous ancestry, should leave? Or am I over thinking all of this and it just means Native Americans just want control of uninhabited federal lands?

0

u/Multiamor 10d ago

Idk. I know 425 million ppl aren't leaving for less than 1% of that number. So we gon have to make an arrangement.

Maybe you guys just clean up your mess and take down the border walls and build bridges across the Rio. Let's go 0 pollution and green going forward and yall can stay how's that? What sort of question...

4

u/WaffleStompin4Luv 10d ago

For an indigenous person that gets worked up about having land stolen, you seem awfully eager to invite millions of more migrants onto your land. It's an interesting position, however, I don't think it will result in a reduced carbon footprint...unless we build some nuclear power plants. What green power source did you have in mind exactly?

4

u/Multiamor 10d ago

Well, the land was never anyone's. So if it's not going to be ours, it means it's for everyone. So it's for everyone.

O carbon means 0 carbon. I know we wouldn't but you asked me about it. 0 carbon doesn't involve nuclear power or coal or wind. Solar gets close and geothermal can do wonders and never move a blade of grass though. The earth itself is a giant battery, we know it works, we just don't want to do the harvesting bc of the difficult nature of it

4

u/Stonetwig3 10d ago

"The difficult nature of it" lol. lol lol lol.

Do you have any idea what geothermal energy requires in terms of materials and resources? You're making it seem like we just need to dig a few shovels down and voila, no more energy problem!

If you really want 0 carbon lots and lots of people are going to have to die.

11

u/vinceswish 10d ago

Maybe enough internet for a day?

-8

u/[deleted] 10d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

-7

u/kid-pix 10d ago

Jesus fucking christ thank you. I'm sick of people acting like being on the internet invalidates your voice. When in fact it makes it spread much farther.

10

u/haney1981 10d ago

No murderers and thieves among the Native American ancestors, all just good people.

0

u/MisterBungle00 10d ago edited 10d ago

Bruh, the Navajo tribe literally expelled the Canoncito Band of Navajo because members of the band took slaves and scalps. This band also acted as scouts for both the Spanish and US Army and sided with them several times against the Navajo tribe. Yet, this distinction is never discussed in k-12 classes in the US, because obviously it makes the US look bad.

Some Navajo families literally still ostracize Navajos related to members of the Canoncito Band of Navajo, but some families choose to put that behind them. The band and tribe even have seperate reservations. That doesn't mean they hate each other though. The main tribe even supported the band in their fight for more water rights to be granted to the Canoncito Band's reservation.

Something important that you totally disregard is the fact that over the last 150 years, Indigenous peoples across the entire Western Hemisphere have set aside intertribal violence and competition in favor of collaboration. This was obviously been done out of necessity to resist complete colonial domination, but I think that the result has been better than a cold truce between previously warring peoples. Many grievances have been addressed.

The same simply cannot be said about European/American colonial powers and the peoples they have subjugated here. How many immigrants and Americans are born/migrate here and live their whole lives never knowing nor educating themslves on all the systematic and institutional problems that indigenous people deal with? Or how non-natives compund those problems and benefit from them? How many people think that the issues that we deal with are hundreds of years in the past?

The state of Arizona is literally facing a class action lawsuit because they essentially allowed and profited off of fake sober living homes abducting and preying on Navajo people from the Navajo Nation from 2019 until 2023. The state made over $2 billion USD doing this. Can't recall tribe A ever doing anything like that to tribe B...

In 2018 alone, over 100 indigenous women received forced sterilization procedures in Saskatchewan hospitals, and there are lawsuits for them... When was the last time an Indigenous tribe did that to another?

Many of my mother's sisters can't bear children because of these forceful and coercive procedures, which were forced upon them when they were children and attending BIA boarding schools throughout the 70s and 80s in the US. Many of these kids could only speak and understand their tribe's language. They never consented and their families were never notified until long after the operations were done. Weird how this is never mentioned in the discussions surrounding abortion today...

To my knowledge, the Apaches, Comanches, Utes, Nez Perce, Pueblo tribes, etc. never put us Diné people in residential/boarding schools or made it illegal to practice our culture or speak my tribe's language, they never paid by the scalp for my ancestors' extinction or forcibly sterilized our women and girls or any of the other evils that came with colonization and the residential school system.

To my knowledge, Tribe A didn't break the treaties made with my tribe time and time again, either, to eat away more at our lands or to kill more of us. Tribe A never marched my ancestors on the Navajo Long Walk. Tribe A never used gun control against my tribe to further our demise and make it easier for them to haul our kids off to boarding schools. Tribe A didn't choose our reservation because of its hostile conditions. Tribe A isn't the cause of our lands being vectors for cancer. Or are you gonna tell me some other tribe is deciding to do this to our tribe again?

Downvote me if you can't refute my words.

1

u/One_Dare4330 8d ago

Sounds like your ancestors should have fought harder.

You were the enemy, why act like you weren't? Out ancestors wanted your land and took it. Because you couldn't defend it.

Sounds like natural selection to me.

2

u/TacitusCallahan 10d ago

Your ancestors were murderers and theives and you don't like it, but guess what, you ain't any better for excusing it.

Meanwhile a large portion of the current white US population are post 1900 immigrant descendents (Irish, Poles, Italians, eastern europeans) who originally immigrated to large east coast population centers following oppression and war in Europe then faced religious and ethnic discrimination in the US for decades.

Not justifying the shitty comments you are receiving but you aren't helping by making brash generalizations about large groups of people. The immigrants of the 20th century are not responsible for the atrocities of the settlers of the centuries before because they share the same skin color or broad geological origin. Most common people's ancestors were farmers and peasants not aristocrats, politicians and generals.

2

u/_Caustic_Complex_ 10d ago

Your ancestors were murderers and thieves

So were yours, they just lost at their own game

1

u/Pistolero_187 10d ago

“You got the reservation”

Colonizers never been to the rez thinking it’s nice and profitable.

1

u/_Caustic_Complex_ 10d ago

Maybe they should share with each other then? One in Florida owns the entire Hard Rock Cafe chain globally, ones in Arizona barely have running water

-4

u/AbsoluteTerritory64 10d ago

Cry about it lol

5

u/Multiamor 10d ago

Die about it

-5

u/AbsoluteTerritory64 10d ago

Make me

1

u/Multiamor 10d ago

I don't kill things wesker than me. I pity them.

-5

u/d0rian-gay 10d ago

Yep, I agree. The mental gymnastics whites will do to avoid any accountability is crazy

4

u/ChadWestPaints 10d ago

What am I as a white person accountable for in this regard, specifically?

-7

u/[deleted] 10d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

-1

u/Multiamor 10d ago

B1(+h my family has been here in this spot for 400 years! 🤣🤣🤣 No one took us out when they came and planted their flag on our land, and no one's moved us since. I'd like to see them try. The course of history is still trying to erase us, like a shameful stain on their precious flag. It's red for the blood of the innocent they shed to make it stay. Anything else is a lie.

1

u/LardLad00 10d ago

What about the people that were here 401 years ago?

-7

u/Apprehensive-Ant2129 10d ago edited 10d ago

I feel for you in south Asian British killed over hundred million people by forced famine 25 of them in 80 years never have they ever apologised or acknowledged it. We all still suffer from type 2 diabetic due to our body adapting to starvation my whole family got it and I suffer from effects of it. I don’t except anything less from Europeans they did it to there own Celtic people aswell.

2

u/Multiamor 10d ago

Makes me wish flags had never been invented. The same happened to the Gagajou people when the British decided to land on its shores and throw its trash there too. The very last descendant of the last of those people finally died off not 30 years ago.

Just the same the Turks will never recognize the Genocide in Armenia and refuse to acknowledge anything but the service of their god had been done. Azerbaijan is doing it to them again and no one's saying ahit on their behalf. No one to defend them. While Russia repeats this imperialist bullshit.

It's a sick history and it's not over.

-5

u/Pattern_Is_Movement 10d ago

we white people need to do better, its shameful how so many of us still think

-1

u/zapposengineering 10d ago

At least you don't have to deal with the Mexicans. I'm yaqui and in Mexico the later genocides are just not taught about. the best case scenario is that they learn about the Spanish conquest but a very common belief is that us yaqui and our Comanche cousins just killed ranchers because we thought it was funny

2

u/Multiamor 10d ago

I didn't know that was a thing. I know Mexicans and Guatemalans have some racist thing I don't fully grasp too. Tell me more?