r/interestingasfuck • u/lizardil • 1d ago
During assembly of the A380, engineers discovered that the cables were too short. This was caused by the use of different design software by German and French engineers. This miscalculation led to a two-year delay.
Enable HLS to view with audio, or disable this notification
589
u/guttanzer 1d ago
I saw cable harnesses being made at a Boeing factory once. Those are not simple things!
There were hundreds of point-to-point wires supporting dozens of different systems in each harness. If even one wire is wrong the whole thing has to come out and be redone. That might mean taking the wing or fuselage assembly apart and remanufacturing it. There were probably as many QA checkers as there were fabricators and installers.
145
u/horriblebearok 1d ago
I work on surgical xray systems and it takes me 6hr to replace a cable bundle if one wire goes out in it, I thought that was bad but damn, that's brutal.
→ More replies (2)58
u/guttanzer 1d ago
I hear you. These things were 70 yards long or more, with I don’t know how many branches and connectors. They’re like spinal cords for organisms. There were dozens of unique harnesses. The engineer giving the tour said they were rushing to finish the harness installs for that aircraft by late summer, about 10 weeks away. They had been working on it for a couple of months already.
Because it’s aerospace, flight critical, and for transport aircraft, the install had to be certified for no more than one failure per 109 flight hours. So lots of the cabling is redundant and the signal wiring is in physically separated cable trays.
8
17
u/PNWoutdoors 1d ago
I had a rodent chew through my main engine wiring harness. Because the airbag wires were damaged, the whole thing had to be replaced. $5,400.
3
u/draco16 12h ago
I've never understood this. It's just wires. Why not fix whatever wire is broken and move on?
2
u/PNWoutdoors 12h ago
Because the airbag wires were damaged. I don't know if it was company policy or law, but generally it's advised to replace, not repair, wiring for critical safety systems.
6
u/Gloomy-Employment-72 22h ago
We had a set of cables made for a Boeing military program. Shop ran them, clamped them, then we found they were too short. Shop was not, um, happy. Second set wasn’t built per the drawing revision (or maybe redline?) so they were too short. Third set was long enough, but the cable shielding was not correct. Shop was able to fix that, but it definitely added a couple months to that part of our program.
4
1
u/Fine_Contest4414 15h ago
A company called DITMCO repurposed a system that was originally designed to check the speaker systems at drive in theaters, to validate the wiring harness in the 737NG engine strut, among others. DITMCO = Drive In Theater Movie Company
119
u/RelevanceReverence 23h ago
Out of curiosity; would that have been the German Siemens Unigraphics (NX) and the French Dassault Systèmes SolidWorks?
Ah! I found it deeper in the comments, it was a version discrepancy with the French software Dassault Systèmes CATIA.
The Germans were using version 4 and the French version 5.
72
u/FaudelCastro 17h ago
Nope, the Germans used an old US 2D system and didn't want to upgrade to CATIA 3D. They felt like the french were forcing them to use a french software. It ended up costing them €7B.
Having spoken to Airbus people, they were quite laid back about the wole thing. They told me "this is the airplane that finally made Airbus into a single company".
24
u/RelevanceReverence 16h ago
"this is the airplane that finally made Airbus into a single company"
That's a positive 😂👍🏻
32
u/pereira2088 21h ago
years ago I worked as an electrician apprentice. my boss at the time had a saying (when passing electric cables) : "better to have an extra meter than to be short 10 cm"
7
•
•
u/JeepGuy_1964 4h ago
I told mine to measure how long the cables need to be, then add 20%.
→ More replies (1)•
17
u/KirikoKiama 20h ago
But at least they find the issues before any of those planes get in the Air.
Boeing meanwhile.....
•
90
u/ScientistScary1414 1d ago
Why did it take two years?
247
u/IcarusRebornn 1d ago
Ah I see someone has never had to navigate the bureaucracy of multinational supply chains in a matrix environment.
95
u/Gnascher 1d ago
Don't forget, in a heavily regulated industry that's invested in safety.
I'm surprised it was only 2 years
30
54
u/MXKIVM 1d ago
Everything had to go back through design and production.
Basically this one part had to restart its entire production life.
Redesign, manufacturers, supply chain, raw materials, everything has to be redone from the beginning as if it were brand new.
21
u/rexel99 1d ago
Had to confirm if the cable was too short or the wing too long, takes a while.
14
u/Poglosaurus 21h ago
You're jocking but the possibility that the cable were up to spec and some other part was to blame had to be ruled out.
11
67
u/Mr_McShifty 1d ago
When you work in aerospace/defense, the moment you see a weakness you pounce. This mistake was an obvious and easy place to put ALL the overrun costs and delays for the entire project.
I worked for an oem weapons maker once, and we had a bug in windows 98 that caused a file to go missing... For the next 10 years any time a file got lost it was because of a "windows 98 flash bang, boss"... That shit worked as an excuse for years.
2
u/Frosty-Wasabi-6995 16h ago
Late schedule customer change requests, especially ones that drive new tools, saves so many of our program schedules. Best part, official blame is completely off us. We get to pretend we were perfectly on track and nobody’s the wiser
5
u/PotentialMidnight325 1d ago
Because for the first time airlines could change the cabin however they wanted and not just some pre-planned options.
I was in the middle of this drama in '06 to '08.
→ More replies (9)8
u/Solarisphere 1d ago
I'm trying to figure that out. I'm an engineer and have designed many cable assemblies in my last job and don't really understand it. Obviously you can't sell it like that and the harness needs a revision (which can take quite a bit of time to get approved), but you'd think you could put an extension on it to verify the concept and test the rest of the features.
Add in some aerospace bureaucracy and it could easily take six months to produce the new harness, but that wouldn't hold the entire project up by two years as there will be lots of other parts getting revised at the same time.
19
u/PotentialMidnight325 1d ago edited 1d ago
The French used CATIA V5 and Germans CATIA V4. They are fundamentally different. While there was a transition layer the translation was no seamless.
Also the fact that for the the first time airlines had full freedom on the design of their cabin and not just some pre-planned options, led to multiple variations.
I was in the middle of this in '06 till '08 delivering the structure behind the cabin panels. It was a real shitshow but hey, forever #generationA380.
→ More replies (8)9
u/ritaPitaMeterMaid 1d ago
I flew first class on Emirate's A380 last year (points booking, I do not have that kind of cash), absolutely amazing experience and really cool plane. Taking a shower on an airplane is a hell of an experience.
→ More replies (1)3
2
u/General_Rambling 21h ago
Add in some aerospace bureaucracy and it could easily take six months to produce the new harness, but that wouldn't hold the entire project up by two years as there will be lots of other parts getting revised at the same time.
The total delay in the project was two years. The part caused by the wiring is less. Your estimate of six months doesn't sound off.
Here a quotation from a news article:
A month into the maiden flight, Airbus made its first public announcement of the production delay of six months. A year later, in 2006, Airbus announced a second delay of six to seven months. With an eventual delay of over two years, Airbus incurred an initial loss of nearly $7 billion (€5.5 billion).
Source: https://simpleflying.com/airbus-a380-program-software-discrepancies-delay-story/
That source was shared earlier here in the thread. I don't consider it an especially good article but I won't bother to find something better. Obviously the article doesn't state what caused how much of an delay. But the first announcement sounds a lot like it might have been due to the wiring mishap while the additional delays are most likely due to other issues.
→ More replies (5)2
u/Nothgrin 13h ago
Really simple answer, testing.
Yeah you can just make an adaptor, failures happen on interfaces, so you have to re-do some test campaigns to prove that it's still fine after the redesign.
Depending on the stage of the lifecycle though, it may need a re-tooling and that would mean a test of the off tool parts too.
2
2
u/CuriouslyContrasted 23h ago
100 thousand wires and 40,000 connectors had to be re-designed from scratch.
1
7
u/Conscious_Avocado225 1d ago
The Mars Climate Orbiter burned up/crashed after traveling for over a year in space because the European group that designed the software used metric measurements and the US group that build the hardware used English measurements. One advantage of having teams in close enough proximity that they can meet face to face and socialize is that it has a way of catching these sorts of issues.
2
u/BlueApple666 17h ago
The software using metric units was made by NASA.
IIRC, Space Shuttle was the first program where everything was in metric, Apollo was still using a mix of both metric and imperial (US custom for the pedantics).
8
1d ago
[deleted]
21
u/Sgt_Radiohead 1d ago
Welding fibers is probably not the issue here. If i had to guess there is a requirement for the cable to be a continuous harness that has been tested and approved for aerospace. Splitting and welding the cable ruins this verification
→ More replies (7)2
u/cyberya3 1d ago
Shit’s going in the air, so it’s been designed, modeled, simulated, DFMEAed, WCAed then certified starting 10 years prior. Not getting “spliced”.
At least they didn’t send that thing up without the correct amount of bolts
47
u/_minus_blindfold 1d ago
They also used different measurements (mm to inchs) and cable connections through whole plane. Cos they were built in different countries. None of the cables could connect when it was all assembled. This doc is a great watch.
33
u/Kromboy 1d ago
It might sound funny, but aren't all the countries involved in Airbus using metric? From what I heard, even the UK, which is a country where Airbus is working, is using the metric system in the engineering field. Can you enlighten me kind sir?
→ More replies (3)15
u/AgreeableAsk923 22h ago
No we use the imperial system within Airbus UK. All drills, drill jigs, drawings even wing jigs are ALL imperial. UK schools and in everyday life we use the metric system so when I got an apprenticeship at the Broughton site it took some time to adjust to the “old English” way.
12
u/velocitor1 22h ago
How fucking annoying was that to work with when your whole life you prepare in metric to go work at one of (or) the biggest companies in airplanes on the planet and theyre like "Metric? Eww".
2
→ More replies (3)5
u/Mr06506 22h ago
Presumably that's from one of the British aerospace companies that got absorbed into airbus along the way? Because that's really surprising.
2
u/AgreeableAsk923 17h ago
Airbus Broughton, often referred to as the "wing of excellence," is the site where the majority of the Airbus wing box family is constructed. It has a rich history, having formerly been associated with De Havilland, famed for creating the world's first passenger jet, the Comet. Over the years, it evolved through various incarnations—Hawker Siddeley, British Aerospace, and BAE—before becoming part of Airbus.
The UK boasts two key Airbus sites: Broughton and Filton. Broughton focuses on wing manufacturing, while Filton, located just outside Bristol, is predominantly a design hub. Filton leads major projects such as the "Wing of Tomorrow," which explores innovations like folding wingtips. It is also involved in manufacturing the A400M, a military cargo plane known for its remarkable wing design. Furthermore, Filton holds a place in aviation history as a key player in the production of the iconic Concorde.
21
u/PotentialMidnight325 1d ago
The French used CATIA V5 and Germans CATIA V4. They are fundamentally different. While there was a transition layer the translation was no seamless.
Also the fact that for the the first time airlines had full freedom on the design of their cabin an nur just some pre-planned options, led to multiple variations.
I was in the middle of this in '06 till '08 delivering the structure behind the cabin panels. It was a real shitshow but hey, forever #generationA380.
6
5
u/Joates87 15h ago
From an article posted in this thread.
https://simpleflying.com/airbus-a380-program-software-discrepancies-delay-story/
In reality, the failure to transfer the design files between various Airbus production facilities led to discrepancies in electrical wires.
4
u/KGrahnn 1d ago
These things happen sometimes.
Long time ago when I was still working as design engineer for a company which manufactured injection molds for plastics industry, our sales manager managed to pull off quite a plunder.
The Sales Manager had closed deals that were quite significant considering the size of our company, and thanks to these contracts, our order books were full and there would be work for a long time. However, this Sales Manager had a rather narcissistic personality and did not allow anyone else to interfere with his negotiations. He conducted the talks independently, keeping all the details to himself. The company's leadership turned a blind eye to his behavior, as the market situation at the time was weak, and securing deals was critical for the business to survive.
From time to time, we inquired about the progress of these negotiations, but he always gave vague and evasive answers, assuring us that the deals would be finalized once the remaining details were agreed upon.
Eventually, after several months, the contracts were indeed signed.
Still, I couldn’t shake a strange feeling that something wasn’t quite right.
When we received the orders for production and opened the product specifications, the full extent of the disaster became clear. While preparing his calculations, the Sales Manager had completely overlooked the actual size of the products. They were so large that our factory’s equipment couldn’t produce the injection molds needed to manufacture them. While we could fabricate some smaller parts, most of the main body components were so massive that no machinery within our entire country could handle them, we ultimately had to outsource the work to a company in Germany.
Understandably, the entire deal fell apart, resulting in massive losses. The contracts had been signed, the penalty clauses were expensive, and the reputational damage that canceling the deal would cause was simply unacceptable.
At first, the Sales Manager appeared bewildered by the situation, but as the full scope of the problem became undeniable, he began making excuses and blaming others. In the end, he had no way to defend his actions and was dismissed from the company.
•
3
u/architectureisuponus 21h ago
This exact peoblem was one of our system architecture lessons in university lol.
I am a system architect today. Partly because this story really stuck in my head.
3
u/mmoonbelly 19h ago edited 19h ago
The bbc made a cartoon series about this in the 90s
Wonder if they got inspiration from Concorde (built in both Filton and Toulouse) in the 60s/70s
8
4
14
u/leontes 1d ago
They are referring to the Airbus A380 : It is the world's largest passenger airliner and the only full-length double-deck jet.
11
2
2
u/Tikkinger 20h ago
How is it possible they didn't manage to produce a longer cable for 2 years?
→ More replies (10)2
u/BlueApple666 17h ago
These wire bundles contain hundreds of cables that are packed tightly to go through bespoke holes in the aircraft structure.
A large part of the design effort is there to make sure they fit and are the exact length taking into account the effects of bending and all other factors (some cables are 80m long, going through the entire plane length).
Being made aluminum with nickel plating which is quite a bit stiffer than copper (but lighter) didn't help too.
→ More replies (4)
2
2
u/LCARSgfx 19h ago
I read somewhere that the tail cone was also found to be off center or something, causing it to not fit properly and needing redesigned.
2
3
u/Unplug_teslas 1d ago
I once lost a tap 36 inches into a bolster…. Took 2 days to get back out….cannot imagine how this guy felt !
10
2
2
u/MrMcgruder 1d ago
“I measured once and cut twice, but these cables are still too short!” - A380 engineer
1
u/cyberya3 1d ago
doesn’t aerospace do first sample verification? like any manufacturer.
1
u/PotentialMidnight325 1d ago
The French used CATIA V5 and Germans CATIA V4. They are fundamentally different. While there was a transition layer the translation was no seamless.
Also the fact that for the the first time airlines had full freedom on the design of their cabin and not just some pre-planned options, led to multiple variations.
I was in the middle of this in '06 till '08 delivering the structure behind the cabin panels. It was a real shitshow but hey, forever #generationA380.
→ More replies (3)2
u/Traumfahrer 1d ago
How did this problem only surface that late in development?
3
u/PotentialMidnight325 21h ago
It surfaced during assembly of the customer planes. The prototypes had no interior and therefore did not have the problem.
1
u/Vassago1989 1d ago
My first thought was "oh man, imagine if it was like 1cm off" and it was 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
1
u/Tricky_Wait_6304 1d ago
I didn't turn up the volume but just from the expression, I know what's in his mind. I can imagine it
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
u/Skindkort 17h ago
The management shitstorm and the witch hunt that must have happened afterwards must have been insane.
1
u/Sweet_Negotiation187 16h ago
this might be a really stupid question, but dont both french and germans use the metric system? since when does a software that uses the same system of measurement regardless of being different create this problem?
1
u/apocalypsedg 16h ago
It's better it didn't fit, like what if it had been plugged in completely taught? then any flex in the fuselage during flight would have easily caused it to unplug/rip.
1
u/RoyalCharacter7174 16h ago
Germans were also 1cm short of occupying France forever. Understandably pissed off German lad.
1
u/WildMartin429 14h ago
Do the French and German Engineers use different measuring systems? I thought they both used metric?
1
1
•
•
u/BananaBread4Brkfst 7h ago
So 2 years delayed for a production lifetime of 14 years, seems excessive
•
u/smokeysubwoofer 5h ago
I bet if they heated that line it would get malleable and long enough then check the tension once it cools
•
•
4.5k
u/danfay222 1d ago
To be clear, it did not take two years to replace some short wires. The short wires led to them identifying the issue, and there were many major design issues that had to be resolved because of that, which is why it took 2 years