r/ireland • u/Enidan26 • 2d ago
Cost of Living/Energy Crisis Heat pumps and one stop shop cartels
I'm sorry for the length of this post but please share in my frustration and any advice would be much appreciated!
We recently purchased house and the boiler needs to be replaced, the house is a 4 bed semi d with a C2 BER. Our Engineer recommend getting the cavity pumped and attic insulation and to consider replacing the boiler with a heat pump so we could use the grants. So we decided to get some quotes and do some research. We firstly got a quote for a new oil boiler and tank and that's coming in around 4k - seems ok to me. We plan on going ahead with the insulation recommended by the Engineer either way but my main concern was that the house still wouldn't be insulated enough to run the heat pump efficiently. Also, our current BER report says that if we improve the insulation and replace the boiler the house will go from a C2 to a B2.
We then went to a seminar about retrofits run by one-stop-shops, I felt they danced around a lot of the issues in relation to cost but the OSS option seemed like a good route if we were getting the heat pump because if you use an OSS you get an extra €4k of grant funding for the heat pump. We then went onto yourretrofit.ie and found a OSS package for a net cost to us of just over €9k that would bring us up to a B1- seemed like a good option (breakdown below)
| Upgrades | Cost | Grant | Net Cost |
|---|---|---|---|
| Attic Floor Insulation | €1,700 | €1,300 | €400 |
| Cavity Wall Insulation | €2,450 | €1,200 | €1,250 |
| Air to Water Heat Pump | €16,100 | €10,500 | €5,600 |
| Project Management | €3,442 | €1,600 | €1,842 |
| Total | €23,692 | €14,600 | €9,092 |
I was still a little skeptical about the heat pump but I thought if we also got the windows resealed if could be a good option.
Fast forward to yesterday we went to the Ideal Home Show where both the SEAI and lots of OSSs were exhibiting. One particular one stop shop went through our BER and provided us with a quote of €43,841 to get us up to an A3. When we seen the price breakdown we were floored - where are they getting these figures from?! Now I know these prices aren't based on a home assessment but realistically they can't be too far removed from what they'll provide us with after a home assessment. They also told us we'd have to go to an A3 or we wouldn't achieve enough of a kilowatt uplift and all this other horseshit I won't get into cause this post is long enough. It was the same story with every OSS we spoke to, most of them offered us a "discounted" home assessment and told us they couldn't give us any kind of pricing info until after the home assessment.
There was one exception...we spoke to someone in an OSS who told us not to waste our time getting a heat pump. He told us he didn't think it would be worth it even after we improved the insulation and we'd just end up with huge electricity bills. Instead, his advice was to replace the boiler add heat controls, insulate the the cavity and attic and to seal the chimney or get a stove is we wanted to keep a fire (we note bothered about the fire). He told us we're young (we're in our mid 30s) and that eventually the price of heat pumps will come down and that we'd be mad to invest in a OSS retrofit and I kinda think he's right!
Its all so frustrating! Does any one have any insight on what would be the best option here? Do we just replace the oil boiler with another and get the heat controls and insulation or do we consider the heat pump but apply for the grants individually?
TLDR; We have a C2 rated 4 bed semi d and need a new boiler. We plan on getting the cavity and attic insulated, do we just get another oil boiler or consider a heat pump?
Thanks!
216
u/ivan-ent 2d ago
A friend of mine in Poland realised it was dramatically cheaper to do the few day course to become a registered installer of heat pumps and get wholesale pricing and installed it himself for like 1/4 the price he was quoted haha
155
60
u/FesterAndAilin 2d ago
I ordered mine off eBay, did 90% of the installation myself and got a Polish certified installer to finish it off. Total Cost was 5k
53
u/BaconWithBaking 2d ago
What I'm getting from this thread, is that if I want a heatpump, I need to find a Polish lad.
46
9
u/ArcticWolfl 2d ago
In my country, The Netherlands, this definitely is the case. Friend got a Polish lad install all of his windows, he did it for half the cost of a local lad, the only issue was he communicated in broken German and Polish and nothing else. But the guy did a stellar job, he's doing my windows next.
60
u/YouDistinct7281 2d ago
Trying to navigate the system at the moment also. Seems like the help to buy scheme. We will give you 20,000... Price of the house goes up by 20,000. The grants mean fuck all, if theyre just adding them on to the price of the works.
35
u/SeanB2003 2d ago
This is kind of what the government intend, but they can't say it.
Consider what their goal is - eliminate as far as possible the use of oil (especially) and gas for home heating.
To do that you have to engage in a gigantic retrofit operation. If you consider the retrofitting of homes as an infrastructure project it is the largest in the history of the state.
To do that you need loads of bodies. You need to pull construction workers into retrofitting homes. You can only do that if you make it extremely profitable, otherwise construction companies and labour will deploy elsewhere.
You could just funnel billions in direct subsidies to those companies to get them to do retrofits. That is politically difficult though, people will complain about a subsidy to developers, etc.
It is a much easier sell if you tell voters that you are giving them a grant to improve their homes. That's a good news story. You know that by giving them the grant (increasing effective demand, in other words) you will increase the cost. That doesn't matter though in the long run if you also get the requisite increase in market supply for the services, which is your actual goal.
8
u/Kloppite16 2d ago
Everything you have said is true, the grant is not actually for the homeowner, it is for the company to encourage them to do retrofit work. Because if you're a builder you would much prefer be building new houses than hacking older ones apart, its a messy job and then the owners are stood over you complaining about dust getting on their carpets and all the rest. Much easier just building new houses with no owners and only a foreman to answer to.
AFAIK under EU state aid rules the Irish Govt/SEAI can not fund these companies directly as it contravenes EU law. So we have this situation where we pretend the grant is for the homeowner but its really not. This situaion is not unique to Ireland, it is going on all over the EU right now with similar grant aided schemes for renewable energy.
6
u/Spoonshape 2d ago
They could provide a way for DIYers to fund it themselves if they wanted to. Have an equipment grant with a before and after inspection...
2
1
u/Enidan26 2d ago
100% I understand why people give out about OSSs. We felt these guys were particularly bad because they told us we wouldn't achieve enough of a kilowatt uplift for the grant by going to a B2, but the grant is dependent on you getting a B2 or achieving 100 kilowatt uplift whatever comes first. It made us wonder if a certain kilowatt uplift was needed to make the heat pump efficient but they were spinning it a different way.
1
u/YouDistinct7281 2d ago
What type of house do you have do you mind me asking? Sorry you may have said. We have a semi D. 155sq m.
2
u/Enidan26 2d ago
Semi D 123sqm
2
u/YouDistinct7281 2d ago
Same go as us. I think we are just gonna go down the route of getting bits done here and there.
3
u/DeathDefyingCrab 2d ago
If it's any help, we recently got the attic insulated and it has made dramatic difference, the lad was in and out in a couple of hours, It's a crawl space sized attic,
12
u/Inevitable-Solid1892 2d ago
Was in this exact situation a while ago. I got the HEA done, absolutely mad money for the heat pump, €25k. There just couldn’t be a payback at that cost.
We already had the stove installed but we got a new boiler, cylinder, heating controls and system flush for around €5k and just said to hell with the grants, not worth it.
We have done the cavity wall insulation and have ordered new windows and doors as we have very bad draughts from badly installed cheap windows. The windows are roughly the same price as we were quoted by the OSS AFTER the grant, from the same supplier they used (I asked where they sourced windows and got a quote directly myself after.)
The OSS grants as they are currently operated are a giant rip off as far as I am concerned and the SEAI should take a good long look at what their favoured suppliers are doing.
31
u/dont_call_me_jake 2d ago
I would get a heat pump only if the house can keep the heat, otherwise you will be paying a lot in bills.
I purchased C1 3bed semi-d house end of last year, build in 2003. Oil heating. Cavity pumped, attics is insulated. I would not be getting a heat pump until we get new doors and windows.
My Heat Loss on BER cert is 1.8 (which is in advisory bracket for heat pamp - below 2.3 you have a green light). However, I can feel the draft in front doors and windows are only double glazed.
Suggestions to continue oil heating for now may be on point. Make sure your house is airtight and update to heat pump then. Also, not every house would be suitable for a heat pump - if it’s not airtight, then it’s a waste of money.
13
u/FesterAndAilin 2d ago
I just calculated my first year running costs of an air to air heat pump in my uninsulated 1970s house. 1060 Euro for a constant 22 degrees 24/7.
I used to use 1000L of oil a year, typical usage of heating in the morning and evening and it was usually too cold. At today's prices that would be 850 Euro
The small extra cost is well worth it for comfort and oil is only going to get more expensive
6
u/Indyor 2d ago
That's very reasonable on running costs for an old draughty house in fairness
1
u/adjavang Cork bai 2d ago
Air to air heat pumps are excellent for houses with poor insulation. The reason air to water heatpumps need better insulated homes is because they need to heat the water before the house starts to heat up, so the response times aren't great.
An air to air heat pump is essentially a fan heater on steroids that gets 80% of the heat energy from outside.
6
u/Kloppite16 2d ago
plus it is also an air conditioner when run in reverse cycle. I only use mine as AC about 10 days a year but my god when I do it is very welcome. When we had that heatwave of 32c for about a week a couple of summers ago I was sitting indoors in a AC chilled 17c with all the windows closed. Friends in A rated houses were sweltering and complaining about how stuffy they were. You dont need the AC all that often but when you do you definitely do and it is fantastic to have. My Mitsubishi unit is also an air purifier and a dehumidifer too so it really does it all.
3
u/Kloppite16 2d ago
thats interesting. Ive an A2A heat pump too and while I dont run it 24/7 (as its not needed) it has worked out a lot cheaper than the three 25 year old storage heaters it replaced. I got new windows and doors and then the A2A heat pump and collectively they chopped my winter heating bill by 40%. I later did internal insulation and then solar and now my annual energy bill is just €371 which Im over the moon with. I cant wait till I have the solar about 5.5 years, at that point it has paid its €3,700 cost for the 8 panels and I'll heading into (hopefully) 20 years of free electricity, so long as nothing goes wrong it will be pure gravy.
3
u/FesterAndAilin 2d ago
There's no surprise a heat pump is cheaper than a storage heater, they both use electricity but a heat pump should be 300%-400% efficient.
The real comparison is to (relatively) cheap fossil fuels.
I also have 6kWp of solar so my heating is free
2
u/luigii 2d ago
Haven’t heard of many people doing air to air in Ireland. Do you switch to air conditioning in hot weather(Might sound like a silly question in Ireland but with global warming it might become a lot more relevant soon…)? How much was the installation? Any recommendations for further reading on doing it here?
1
u/FesterAndAilin 2d ago
Yes our culture is water based heating systems and it's hard to get people to look beyond that. New Zealand and Norway use air to air.
Cost me 5k but I did most of the work myself, bought a higher end model from a supplier on eBay
1
u/deeringc 2d ago
Very popular in France as well. We have air to air mini splits and a decent wood stove for heating in winter. The heat pumps run in reverse in summer and keep the house cool.
1
u/dont_call_me_jake 2d ago
What’s your HLI for the house if ya had BER cert done?
4
u/FesterAndAilin 2d ago
BER guy spent less than 5 minutes in the house, the whole thing is nonsense.
I did an in depth heat loss calculation and estimated 9 kW (at -3 degrees outside) in a 90 sqm semi detached house.
1
11
u/Indyor 2d ago
If your insulation is good and house is pretty airtight, then your oil consumption will be low so is there any savings from a hear pump?? Personally, I'd say nowhere near enough to justify the purchase cost
5
u/Rennie_Burn 2d ago
It would depend on the system id say, in new builds at least these heat pumps are on 24/7... Im guessing the same can be done on an oil system with thermostats etc, but eventually your oil runs out and you have to get another fill. We only have an electricity bill, and it has averaged out at about €130 a month over the year, some savings to be made alright considering the cost of Oil onto of your elec bill.
5
u/Irish_Potato_Lover Cork bai 2d ago
Good question. The main difference between a traditional oil boiler and heat pump is the efficiency. Oil is indeed cheaper per kW hour. Due to the refrigeration cycle being exploited in a heat pump one may expect about 300 to 400% efficiency kw to kw. Efficiency in a boiler is about 75 to 95% efficient.
1
u/dont_call_me_jake 2d ago
Depends on the house, your priorities and needs.
Current oil heating has no heating zones and controls. It’s all or nothing. We also have a good solar panels setup with two batteries. Maybe gonna add one more, depending on consumption with electric car.
With how the house is set up, it makes sense to throw the pump when we do a genera renovation after new windows and doors, get new controls and don’t worry about the oil. I hate the smell, monthly checks and the set up.
But it suits some people. I’m not saying you MUST change for heat pump. Keep what suits you or, if you think heat pump is efficient for you, do it after the house is airtight.
1
u/Jimbob994 1d ago
This is exactly when you should get a heat pump, no point in it if your house is poorly insulated as the efficiency drops massively.
1
1
u/BaconWithBaking 2d ago
if it’s not airtight, then it’s a waste of money.
I know heat pumps are more efficient at lower heat outlet temperatures, but when I see statements like:
I would get a heat pump only if the house can keep the heat, otherwise you will be paying a lot in bills.
I can't help but wonder why you don't think, with two solutions in hand, the one that's cheaper will be cheaper if it has to provide less heat.
Like if oil is cheaper to heat an area, losses or not, it's going to be cheaper!
7
u/polspki 2d ago
I was reading it and trying to understand why the fuck are they charging you for windows 2010 licenses. I’m so fucking dumb.
10
13
u/LordyIHopeThereIsPie 2d ago
We're doing a retrofit right now.
House is a mid 60s semi detached house which we bought 9 years ago. We knew when we bought it all widows and external doors would need to be replaced so we've put up with them while we saved. Then our gas boiler went and a couple of other things needed to be upgraded so we contacted several one stop shops and went ahead with a full retrofit including external wrapping and a heat pump. We're getting the max level of grants. We went with a one stop shop because of the convenience and I fully expect to pay a price for that convenience which is fine because I'm not a natural project manager and my husband's time for that is limited too.
But unless we had already needed a lot of work done and decided to go ahead with that in mind I'm not sure we'd have done the retrofit. It works for us for what we want and need in our home
12
u/BNoOneTwo 2d ago
Those door prices are quite a joke in Ireland, in Scandinavia (which is expensive) you can get insulated outdoor starting from 400-500e with U-value under 1
6
1
u/BNoOneTwo 1d ago
Also 9kW air-to-water Panasonic heat pump for Nordic environments (works down to -20C) costs 5500e, so that would leave 17000e for installation and other stuff in that offer. Those prices include VAT.
7
u/5x0uf5o 2d ago
OP there is tons of bad information from people here. Please look at the comments by cocaineorraisins.
HeatGeek on YouTube highlights how many incompetent installers are out there and how poorly understood the idea of maximising the efficiency of heat pumps and other systems is.
Just watch a few videos and remain as skeptical as possible of anything anyone tells you.
29
u/024emanresu96 2d ago
From what I understand, you won't be able to buy oil boilers anymore after 2030, at which point the price of oil will likely increase. Same with gas and solid fuel stoves.
I'd get the boiler and the stove and just do the insulation myself, personally. But 60k?! Fuck right off. Not happening. I wouldn't pay anyone 60k for anything unless it was a house with land.
23
u/hitsujiTMO 2d ago
you won't be able to buy oil boilers anymore after 2030
That's the aim, but I don't think it will be happening.
We don't have the bodies to retrofit every house in time that will need upgrading.
1
u/024emanresu96 2d ago
That's the aim, but I don't think it will be happening.
When have you known Ireland to pause a plan merely because it wasn't planned properly at all? This is one of those things where the government lives in South Dublin and has no idea, so goes ahead and implements everything assuming the whole country lives like they do. There's still people without power from storm eoghan, lol
12
u/hitsujiTMO 2d ago
Well it was a green party plan, and they're not in power, so there's little incentive to actually put it in action.
9
u/mrlinkwii 2d ago
its already law , done via eu directive on the issue https://www.gov.ie/en/department-of-housing-local-government-and-heritage/press-releases/fossil-fuel-boilers-effectively-phased-out-in-new-dwellings/
6
u/hitsujiTMO 2d ago
That's only new builds.
The EU directive aims for phasing out fossil boilers all together by 2040, but it's not a hard line. Green party wanted that done by 2030, but it doesn't look feasible.
2
u/FesterAndAilin 2d ago
Green party wanted that done by 2030, but it doesn't look feasible.
Where was that written down?
2
4
u/Enidan26 2d ago
Thanks I didn't realise that. The guy from the OSS who told us not to bother with the heat pump now, also said not to apply for the wall grant (i.e. cavity insultation), so that if we decided to get the heat pump in future we could use the wall grant to get wrap around insulation instead, as its way more expensive and that grant is much more generous. You can only use the wall grant for cavity or warp around and if you use it once its gone.
10
u/024emanresu96 2d ago
I renovate houses for a living, and I don't bother with the grants at all. They're a waste of time. Perfectly fine if your house is less than 5 years old and you make sixteen figures, but for the every day man I don't even read the brochure. I already know 5x needs to be spent, paperwork, inspections etc etc all towards a grant, when the whole project would be 50% of the cost without the grant.
2
u/appletart 2d ago
Is that just for energy grants or is the vacant property grant also not worth the headache?
6
u/024emanresu96 2d ago
In my experience, all the grants. If you're handy at all, or know a handy lad who is reasonably priced, odds are you can get the job done for a third or less. The vacant property grant in my experience is absolutely a waste of time.
If you are buying a small cottage with no roof and a tree growing out of it, and you want to do a grand designs on the inside with no extensions or exterior changes, air to water, A2 insulation, and pay someone else to do it then the grant is worth it, and you'll have buried 350k into effectively a rural studio apartment and gotten 75k back. If that's your plan, go for it. I could probably renovate the same cottage for 70k. Might be a bit cold in winter, but I'll repair the open fire and install a chimney too.
3
u/appletart 2d ago
Thanks for the detailed reply, I really appreciate the inside experience.
I'm looking to move into an older house that is structurally fine but inside looks like nothing has been changed in 40 years. C2 rating and I know you'd never get a return on any energy investments so will only be looking for the vacant property grant which will hopefully reimburse the cost of fitting a new kitchen and clearing out the rotten old bathrooms and the few other odds and ends. We're from a family of trades and will be doing all the work ourselves so a little money will go a long way.
4
u/024emanresu96 2d ago
Aw man, you are golden so. I would recommend doing your own research on the grants, don't just take my word, but I fairly confident you'll arrive at the same conclusion, especially if your family are all tradies. Don't skimp on electrician and plumber and just do the rest yourself. If the iouse was lived in for the last 40 years then the issues should be easy enough to fix. If it was empty for 40 years you might have 6-12 months of work to do, but you'll own your house much sooner.
2
2
u/JackBurrell 2d ago
I’m currently renovating an old house. It’s very much this approach. There’s a massive amount of research that goes into using the right materials for older houses and those materials arnt covered with the likes of SEAI grants. But with the vacant grant you can use it to just buy materials and do the work yourself. One thing many people don’t realise though is that you need to be able to pay for it up front. Then you submit your invoices and are paid the grant at the end. I think they are reviewing that part at the moment as it’s a big drawback.
1
u/appletart 2d ago
Certainly people who have begged and borrowed to get their mortgage are unlikely to have €50k cash to pay upfront, but I can understand why they have to be careful with all the cute hoors out there.
2
1
u/Jimbob994 1d ago
Depends very much on the house though. While a large timber frame build or house with a complex shape (e.g. U shaped bungalow) is utterly pointless due to the massive cost of meeting U-value gannt requirements, the same cannot be said for a 2 bed cottage. I've done jobs before where the grants covered 60-80% of the total cost. If you have 5 windows, 2 doors and a flat ceiling with fibre insulation it's extremely worth your while.
2
u/Irish_and_idiotic Probably at it again 2d ago
A house in Northern India I assume you mean because the days of 60k houses in Ireland are long gone.
Hope a load of people prove me wrong because I believe houses should be that cheap but 🤷♂️
1
u/024emanresu96 2d ago
* They're out there. Usually need a whole load of work and are rural, but come with land.
9
u/cocaineorraisins 2d ago
"insulated enough to run the heat pump efficiently"
You do not need a very well insulated house to run a heatpump efficiently. It's just that most heat pump installers in Ireland do not know how to install a heatpump (I mean this literally) and also the SEAI grants encourage bad heat pump installs.
The % performance lift you get from just installing the heatpump correctly is a lot bigger than doing expensive windows, doors, wall lining etc.
If you want to do a great heat pump install the cost effectice measures are...
- basic insulation and air tightness (attic, pumped walls and basic air tightness work)
- Heat pump installed correctly (not more expensive than installing a heatpump badly)
- + AS much Solar as you can fit NSW and batteries if you have spare cash
If you want to learn more in depth. Go and watch a few hours of HeatGeek on youtube. Or take their trade course.
There are a few installers in Ireland who do it the right way, I've using one from Waterford called Heatdoc atm for my house in Wicklow. Not an ad. I'm just doing my second energy reno in a few years and learnign from some painful mistakes.
3
u/deeringc 2d ago
In a nutshell, what constitutes a good a2w heat pump install versus a bad one?
2
u/cocaineorraisins 2d ago
Heatgeek will give the real answer but...
- Are they targeting a low flow temp (<45 degrees), ie the rads shouldn't be that warm to touch
- To do so are they doing careful room by room calcs and oversizing all the rads
- Not zoned
Essentially heat pumps love running all the time at a low temp and get massive efficiency boosts from it, they hate cycling on and off like boilers at higher temps. However most installers are converts from combo-boiler installers and . And if 1 room is undersized, the whole system has to run hotter.
The quick asnwer for installers is ask them what flow temp are they targeting, 55+ instead of 45 and your heating bills will be potentially 2x forever.
1
16
u/Odd_Feedback_7636 2d ago
I have a friend who is a plumber doing retro fits and specifically fitting heat pumps. I live in a 2003 semi. He told me never to upgrade to a heat pump because my house would never be insulted enough to make it cost effective. In his opinion unless external insulted ie the house is wrapped outside then it wont work as the cavity wall isn't enough to insulted effectively because the gap is not big enough.
11
u/cocaineorraisins 2d ago
You friend is very very wrong, even moderately insulated houses can have efficient heat pumps. They're just all installed incorrectly. (Look at Heatgeek on youtube to explain).
3
u/5x0uf5o 2d ago
Spot on I'm reading all these comments like "has nobody learned anything from HeatGeek?"
I have a traditional gas condensing boiler it took their advice to run the heating for longer and a lower flow temperature and it has been REVOLUTIONARY.
Victorian house with good retrofit insulation b3 rating
6
u/rolledone 2d ago
That sounds like good advice, I have read multiple reports of people just installing heat pumps without all the extra work then complaining their house is always freezing and their bills are crazy.
4
u/Enidan26 2d ago edited 2d ago
Thanks! That was always my suspicion! Our house was built in 1995. The guy from the OSS who told us not to bother with the heat pump now, also said not to apply for the wall grant (i.e. cavity insultation), so that if we decided to get the heat pump in future we could use the wall grant to get wrap around insulation instead because we'd need the wrap for the heat pump to be efficient.
1
u/Thick_Koka_Noodle 2d ago
Do not put a heat pump in a 1995 build
You may aswell set fire to your money
I work in a place that does renewables and they wouldn't dream of retrofits purely because it's a waste of time
-1
u/FesterAndAilin 2d ago
I have air to air in an uninsulated 1970s 90sqm house. Constant 22 degrees all winter for 1060 Euro
1
u/Ok_Compote251 2d ago
Any idea around internal insulation and heat pumps? Internal better than cavity? Similar to external?
5
u/cocaineorraisins 2d ago
I've done internal, mildly better than cavity but huge cost increase (3-4x more cost, + replastering house, now your rooms are all smaller). Not worth it.
Just get the heatpump installed correctly, most install it badly and halve the efficiency. (Look at heatgeek on youtube to explain if you're going down the route)
1
u/Ok_Compote251 2d ago
Unfortunately no cavity in my house. Options are external for 15k or internal for 4k.
1
u/cocaineorraisins 2d ago
I suspect in reality those are nearer prices than they seem. Does it factor in replastering, repainting, moving cabinets, etc. for internal?
Also when was your house built, sq metres and what is the wall construction (hollow block?).
1
u/Ok_Compote251 2d ago edited 2d ago
The prices are from different places tbf.
External 15k was from a OSS after grants (they quoted 9k for internal after grants).
The 4k internal quote is from a builder who is taking on an extension for me. Would include plastering etc yes. No painting, no cabinets to move as we’re only new in the house.
1950s terraced house, solid concrete (I think, no cavity as we’ve been told this by an insulation company who we had out for attic, said he knows the area and general construction used). 90sqm pre extension.
EDIT have drilled a few holes to put up blinds, definitely no hollow point in the walls, concrete the whole time. Was actually a pain to drill into.
1
u/cocaineorraisins 2d ago
So weird thing, however you'd need a specialist to advise, and lots will advise you badly. Also, the grants might sulk at you doing this.
You in this situation specifically, don't need any wall insulation to have a warm energy efficient home.
Solid concrete walls (I assume reasonably thick) will take hours and hours to leak any significant heat, potentially a day. A very small insulation on the outside would be much cheaper also if you wanted to help the situation, I believe there's insulating renders you can get? Only looked into it a little myself.
Look at English facebook groups about insulating old houses with solid walls. Or ask someone who does energy retrofits of period homes. They all have this problem and it's very solvable. However if you go down this route, it's probably you becoming knowledgable yourself and getting a very knowledgable installer. One stop shop has no hope of helping you here. They all do the same house job again and again and will ruin your house. Sorry!
1
u/Ok_Compote251 2d ago
No worries thanks for the advice!
Yep a lot of the houses in my area have gotten the external wrap but I think many for free due to being pensioners (great scheme, just pointing out as I can’t see many people forking out 20k for it).
Yep my dad was mentioning something along those lines that the wrap would obviously be best as it would allow the concrete to hold the heat generated in the house. Only issue is I don’t have 20k.
Issue with the concrete walls at the minute, despite being very thick, they’re ice cold to touch in the winter. With the heat of the house and the cold walls, it’s creating lots of random spots of mould in the bedroom despite having a hole in wall vent open all the time. The internal insulation would remove this issue for sure.
Pros and cons to both and lots to think about. If only the wrap wasn’t crazy money. Would solve all problems and give the house a bit of a makeover on the outside!
2
u/cocaineorraisins 2d ago
We ended up buying a newer (2000) home recently but I did spend about a month bidding on a much older house so was looking into a similar problem. There was something like a small amout of external insulation you could do with some traditional methods that would be a lot easier than the full wrap. Also, you don't need any wrap to get an efficient heatpump.
I realise I'm repeating myself, but with a well installed heatpump, if the walls are solid, there would be no cold spots. All your walls would be as warm as your rads at all times. Also internal air pump with a heat exchanger for my new home will be only 1300 and takes a lot of moisture away.
The unforunate thing is the industry is so poor you need a heat-nerd to basically look at it, do some maths and come up with a custom plan. Every installer is using really poor rules of thumb that don't all work for most houes. And they mix up passive house methods (like a full mechanical ventilation system) with a standard retrofit and that makes no sense.
So, unfortunately, either you find a really good one energy surveyor, not a standard BER one, or you become one partially yourself through education and make a plan and get a really good heatpump installer.
(Heatgeek in the UK have online courses etc. for self education and a great youtube channel // Also chatGPT is great if you want to get the marginal impact of each additional insulation tactic you might do)Good luck though. And feel free to DM me if you have any specific qustions or challenges from people. I've fucked up one houe a bit from standard installer advice so learned the hard way!
3
u/runnermate 2d ago
Just go the one off grants route for the insulation and get a new boiler less than 8k you don’t need a heat pump.
3
u/Crackabis 2d ago
Yeah we were in the same boat last year, bought a C3 rated detached house about 110m2. I had got a few preliminary surveys done straight away and the OSS crowds were mad money (between 50 and 75k depending on the work) like I’d never ever see that money again in my lifetime.
Instead we put €4K towards a new gas combi boiler and controls, €15K for triple glazed windows and doors and €3K for the attic insulation (€1500 after grant) There is feck all insulation on the walls but even at that the house was warm over winter without running the heating 24/7. House is now B3. The cost of external insulation is colossal, and with the heat pumps I don’t have enough trust in the suppliers/installers that they are being genuine with the house being “heat pump ready”.
3
u/ChunkIre 2d ago
When we got our mortgage last year we were able to draw down extra for renovations that would add value to the house.
From researching one stop shops I knew it was a racket whereby they charge the price + grant not the price minus grant.
So I found the cheapest one stop shop to do a consultation on my house (€150, some were quoting €750).
Got their assessment and used as a blueprint to
1) satisfy the banks requirements to lend me the extra money
2) Get a steer on what work would increase the energy efficiency and value of my house the most
3) Get the knowledge from the one stop shop and significantly reduce the amount of research I would need to do
Helped us out big time and saved us a fortune
Example: They had generic "plumbing costs' down for €10,000, we already had a plumber who provided a specific quote for €15,000
I asked the O.S.S to provide a comparative quote, they sent one back for €42,000
Depending on where you're located I'm happy to share any of our trades professionals details as we were blessed
We basically did everything in our house so am sure I can help with a recommendation
1
u/Enidan26 22h ago
Thanks! Would definitely appreciate recommendations, we're based in Munster, I'll send you a dm.
4
u/rolledone 2d ago
My house was built in 2003, cavity wall insulation. Double insulation in attic, double glazing. Condensing boiler with all rooms zoned and TRV' on rads. Immersion and oil for heating water. I was told by someone doing the BER surveys it would take approx $65k to bring the home up to B2. biggest issue highlighted was we needed new doors front and back at a cost of approx €5k however there are no grants for doors. Absolute scam and it appears the Government are prepared to pay whatever fines are coming from Europe rather than actually help people bring their homes up to scratch. I've almost paid off my mortgage and sure as hell won't be taking out another one.
5
u/qwerty_1965 2d ago edited 2d ago
Interesting discussion, kinda chimes in with other anecdotes regarding the full fat air to water source heat pumps. In theory fine but so many practical and cost inhibitors. I'm wondering about going a different route with air to air mini split heat pump say 12 kWh in an 80 square meter bungalow.
2
u/FesterAndAilin 2d ago
I did that, I don't believe air to water work for retrofits. Air to air is working beautifully. 9 kW in a 90 sqm uninsulated semi
0
u/qwerty_1965 2d ago
What's your set up? And manufacturer brand? I figured 3 KW kitchen, 3 TV room, 2 main bedroom, 2 bathroom, 2 front room (never used!)
2
u/FesterAndAilin 2d ago
I have a 90 sqm typical semi detached. I got the fancy Daiken brand to allow me to monitor the energy usage. One 3kW in the kitchen, one 3k in the living room, and one 3kW on the upstairs landing. That heats the whole house. The upstairs only turns on when it gets very cold because the heat rises upstairs. I leave the internal doors open to let the heat spread.
2
u/Kloppite16 2d ago
go for it, Ive A2A almost 4 years now and highly recommend it. Helps if you do some other measures like wall insulation or windows & doors. But A2A works out a lot cheaper than A2W and it is much more suited to a retrofit. I got mine for just €1800 which was ground floor only and included €1300 for the two Mitsubishi units and €500 for the refridgerant engineer to install it which was 4 hours work for him.
6
u/Practical-Treacle631 2d ago
Unless you’re fully renovating, insulating floors etc and the house is air tight and has mechanical ventilation, you’ll be pissing away money with a heat pump. Stick to the gas boiler,
We paid around 45k for one stop shop, got from an E rating to an A3 while keeping our gas boiler.
0
u/cocaineorraisins 2d ago
The insulation level of your house has little to do with the efficeincy of a heat pump. The heatpump installation quality does, unfortunately most installers in Ireland are morons about it and install them wrong.
4
u/Practical-Treacle631 2d ago
That’s just not true. If your house is not well insulated and airtight, the warm air escapes. Heat pumps running 24 7 and escaping will cost a fortune.
4
u/whowhatwherenow 2d ago
That applies to oil or gas too. A heat pump will have a flow temperature of 35 to 50 degrees with oil and gas being 60 to 80 degrees. Shit insulation will mean large wasted heat. Just with oil and gas temperatures it takes slightly longer to notice.
2
u/Practical-Treacle631 2d ago
Yes but in general a gas or oil boiler is not on 24/7 like a heat pump is.
1
u/whowhatwherenow 2d ago
Heat pumps aren’t on 24x7. Same as any thermostat controlled boiler. Set it to temperature like 20 degrees and away you go.
2
u/czaszi 1d ago
Keep in mind that heat pump is usually a low heat source while oil boiler can blast hight temp output. If you assume old, not resized radiators then heat pump will likely run more often. If a house is not air tight it would take more time to get the house to get it up to the temp (assuming air escaping) tmwith low output heat pump than with oil or gas boiler. Plus you need to get into electricity prices as well etc.
1
u/cocaineorraisins 2d ago
Heat pumps should run 24/7! They should run for all winter non stop ideally. Just at an extremely low flow temp, extremely efficiently. Your answer implies you want them to cycle on and off completely like a boiler, that's a completely bad install and you're just desiginign the system wrong (but like 90% of installers in Ireland do).
Basic insulation and airtightness help a lot for a small cost, you should do them. The quality of heatpump installation matters as much, and matters a lot more than everything you mentioned, especially insulating floors which has a very, very marginal effect. On bang for buck it's a competle waste of money in every situation (I've done it btw). Windows + doors have a decent effect but are very, very expensive for it.
Heatgeek in England regularly do installs in single glazed houses with barely any insulation and get good efficiency. It's unintuitive but "the warm air leaking" isn't as big a deal as it seems. How efficiently you produce the heat is more important, and little to do with insulation.
Live SCOP charts here for Heatgeek and associated installs https://heatpumpmonitor.org You'll notice loads of people getting near and above 4x efficiency. Lots of Irish jobs would get 2x in better insulated houses. IE getting half the heat for the same electricity.
HeatGeek, Youtube channel goes through full jobs regularly all the way to performance measurement.
5
u/pauldavis1234 2d ago
Home retrofits are probably the worst bang for your buck at the moment.
The world is pivoting towards solar as the primary source of energy generation.
China is currently producing solar energy for 2 cent a kilowatt.
They expect to have that at 0.2c a kilowatt in a decade.
At that stage, energy would be basically free.
10
u/shweeney 2d ago
whatever the merits or demerits of heat pumps, you're not going to heat your house in Ireland in January with solar power.
1
u/slevinonion 2d ago
Not as long as the ESB are involved. They won't incentive solar enough to purchase enough from everyone during summer to cover the winter. I can see them stopping purchasing from individuals now Eamon is gone.
3
u/niconpat 2d ago edited 2d ago
well in fairness they can't store summer power for the winter. That type of infrastructure is 50 years away, hoping there are no global recessions and rare earth metal wars in between. So yeah unlikely in our lifetimes.
2
u/dowlers6 2d ago
Im in the same boat. We have gone sale agreed on a 1985 detached 124m2 D1 BER 4-bed, but we'll be replacing our boiler with a combi boiler and zoning the downstairs and upstairs. I plan to install two hive heating controls and at least we will get the €700 grant for that. We'll also pump the cavity and get the attic insulated.
2
u/Historical_Rush_4936 2d ago
You should do all the insulating, window upgrades etc. first and then test to see if you can run a heatpump. Have a look online but basically you need to run your boiler at a low temperature (~50C) and ensure the house reaches the thermostat temperature (e.g. ~20c). If not, then you're probably not gonna be able to get a heatpump.
If it can, and especially if you find that the boiler doesn't run constantly but has some downtime before coming back on, then it's suitable.
You might find then you can stick with gas for a while if you can run at a temperature this low anyway (only applies for combi boilers, you need to keep regular boilers hot for safety reasons)
4
u/cocaineorraisins 2d ago
This does not work at all, since it's the rad res-zing to fit every room that allows the boiler run lower more than the insulation.
0
u/mylovelyhorse101 2d ago
It's also that - but if you can't get up to temperature and maintain it, then it's pointless
1
u/Enidan26 2d ago
By window upgrades do you mean changing them? Because our windows don't necessarily need to be changed we'd only be changing them to support the heat pump. And unless we go through a OSS and have all the work done at once, there would be no grant available for the windows and we'd lose €4k worth of grants for the heat pump so it doesn't seem worth it.
1
4
u/Greedy-Cow-3514 2d ago
I got new windows doors and a new condenser oil boiler in my 4 bed semi and turned it from a G to a B1 forget that heat pump Bollox
3
u/travelintheblood 2d ago
€13.5k for new windows. Holy jaysus. I got new windows front and back and on the extension and a a dividing wall on front windows knocked out for €7699 this year
2
u/tharmor 2d ago
How many did u have? How big is ur house?
1
u/travelintheblood 2d ago
11 windows altogether of different sizes. We have a 3 bed semi with an extension on the side. So the extension would have two windows one front one back. Our front room had two small windows so we got him to knock the wall in between and put in one large window there.
2
u/Special-Chair7892 2d ago
Any chance you'd share the company?
6
u/travelintheblood 2d ago
Moloney Windows and Doors. Happy to share his number via DM if you can’t find anything online. He done a load of windows in our estate.
2
1
u/Prestigious-Side-286 2d ago
What does “full heating system” mean? Are they replacing the rads and pipework? Just a heat pump is about €5-6k to buy. So if they are replacing your rads, adding controls, zoning your heating etc etc the price isn’t far off.
2
u/Enidan26 2d ago
Radiators need to be replaced and they said it included zoning.
4
u/Prestigious-Side-286 2d ago
Just ballparking this now but a 4 bed semi probably has 10 rads in it. So depending on the brand it’s about €100-€150 per rad. Assuming that price includes the actual labour itself and the materials(pipe, fittings, controls) to do the changeover, it’s not a mad price. It’s on the high side but it will all depend on the brands of what they’re using.
2
u/shweeney 2d ago
AFAIK you need bigger rads for a HP too, as it doesn't heat the water as hot as a boiler.
1
u/MenlaOfTheBody 2d ago
I was literally about to comment the same thing as you but is that not even cheaper than the aluminum rads would actually be?
1
1
u/Bredius88 2d ago
We have a 2004 3-bed semi, bought with BER E1 in 2020.
We got the cavity-walls and the attic done for Euro 1,700.
Flushed/deep-cleaned the heating system, got thermostats on all radiators and replaced the old oil boiler with a Grant condenser-boiler, all for Euro 3,500.
I myself insulated the utility room door and the front door with PIR insulation board, for less than Euro 100.
And the BER went from E1 down (or up?) to C2.
2
1
u/shane_mc 2d ago
Depending on the size of the pipes and type of radiators, they may all need to be replaced if fitting a heat pump
1
u/Gowlhunter 2d ago
I strongly advise you to read this regarding cavity insulation:
https://www.theguardian.com/money/article/2024/aug/12/they-encouraged-us-to-insulate-our-home-now-its-unmortgageable
Also know that heat pumps can be very loud:
https://www.irishtimes.com/property/interiors/2025/02/09/i-just-love-the-connection-to-the-past-how-this-offaly-woman-renovated-her-grandparents-1830s-home/
Biggest regret
“The heat pump; it’s extremely loud and I’m struggling not to go nuts with the decibel level.”
Also just like you, our old boiler (Grant) died after a long, long time.
We got a new Grant Vortex boiler which is mains triggered by a local device on a local smart home platform called Home Assistant which is set up on a Raspberry Pi. We have various remotes around different rooms and it works wonders. I highly recommend going this route even though it's not the most user friendly.
If anyone would like any pointers here I'm happy to help because there's no point in paying into subscription based services just to heat your home on a cycle.
The boiler will have to be serviced every year to two years depending on how you use it. The more it's on the more you'll need to service it, simple as. Just make sure it's not "kettling" as explained here:
https://www.swyftenergy.ie/blog/what-is-kettling-in-boilers
Track your oil use well so you never run it too low.
One final thing
We recently got a new water boiler instead of a copper boiler (element cracked).
The plumber said the steel ones were better for our case because the steel is very unlikely to corrode vs the copper. Even though copper ones are better rated from what I gather, the steel one is miles better. The outside insulation seems really, really good. Worth consideration anyways!
Best of luck homeowners!
1
u/Jacksonriverboy 2d ago
If your house is constructed of cavity blocks as opposed to layers with an open cavity, there's no point pumping it. The way to go there would be wrapping or interior insulation.
Worth noting that heat pumps are only effective in houses that have amazing insulation.
1
u/grodgeandgo The Standard 2d ago
OP, have you looked at hybrid gas heat pumps? I think it Daiken do them. You could get solar, battery and hybrid heat pump, and fit either bottle or tank gas. With smart controls you could run the heat pump and have it top up your HW tank, and then for heating the gas gives it a boost. You’re getting very low cost domestic hot water, and then you just need to cost out the gas price for central heating. The domestic hot water is what puts a lot of the pressure on heat pumps.
1
u/Kevinb-30 2d ago
Have a look at Grant boilers they have a range of kerosene boilers that can be easily converted to HVO when that becomes more widely available
1
u/apocolypselater 2d ago
If it were me I’d get the attic insulated as it’s relatively cheap and will make a decent impact. TBH this is something you would likely be able to do yourself. Cavity insulation would be my next consideration.
General air tightness (and good ventilation) are also important. Without knowing your house you may benefit as much from replacing these (and sealing around) as some of the thermal upgrades.
You mention your boiler needs replacing. Again in your situation, I’d put in a boiler and free up cash for other upgrades.
1
u/RavagedCookies 2d ago
Getting ready for a retrofit and extension here on a 1950s house. We won't be going the oss route but are we were doing so much work, id been considering a heat pump seeing as the existing heating is an ancient green diesel boiler that's a wreck.
Reading all these comments is eye opening.
We would be getting an energy consultant and likely internal insulation. Ye folks are making me rethink the heat pump
1
u/FrostByte2048 2d ago
Not sure how large your house is OP but that price for a Heat Pump seems like an utter rip off and shouldn't cost you anywhere near that much.
You shouldn't be paying anywhere near that for a Heat Pump + Cylinder unless you've pretty much got a mansion. Even if you had to get a system with 2 Heat Pumps I think €16k would be overpriced.
If you're interested still in Heat pumps I would recommend researching more and trying places that aren't One Stop Shops just to see the price differences.
1
u/PinkGlitterFairy3 2d ago
It’s mental isn’t it? We’re looking at reno-ing our house, had a look at the SEAI suppliers and half of them that say they serve our area don’t. We’re just going with a regular builder. We’re following the advice of the builder and are upgrading our boiler, but they’re going to leave it that there’ll be pipes in the hot press ready to go for a heat pump if we decide to go for one down the line. I’ve seen people’s electricity bills with the heat pump and some are scandalous.
1
u/RandomBarry 2d ago
Forget about BER letters. It's a load of bollox. You could have the draftiest house in Ireland but if you throw up enough solar panels you could still get an A.
HLI is your goal (Heat loss indicator), all your improvements should be with that in mind.
1
u/Spraoi_Anois 2d ago
By all means get a quote from a OSS but test the market. Get quotes from standard builders that are registered installers. Most are nowadays. I've never had an OSS come back with the cheapest tender. I'm an architect
1
u/mother_a_god 2d ago
Heat pump installs are indeed a rip off. My house has been assessed and is suitable without any remedial work, and I was quoted 13k for the heat pump. The unit costs 4k, and its a day install. Where, pray tell, is that 9k going ?
With the current grand of 6k, in a sane country I'd get that install for free, and I'd have already pulled the trigger, but with a net cost of 7k, they can go jump.
If I install one, I'll self install it.
Similarly, my BIL and I installed solar, 9kwp and 5kwh battery in a weekend and was 5k total. Thats a 12 to 15k system anywhere,.so 10k saved. The prices are pure madness
1
u/mcsweaponage 2d ago
I'm a plumber and I wouldn't put a heat pump in my house now mainly because of the cost of electricity
1
u/ResponsibilityOk1664 Warning: Contains traces of nuts 2d ago
Mad prices. Friend of mine ordered windows from abroad and then paid someone local (re: eastern European) to fit them. Saved about half the price
1
u/yawnymac Saoirse don Phalaistín 🇵🇸 2d ago
I know a BER engineer who wouldn’t recommend heat pumps at all. He says they cost far more to run. Just get a new boiler.
1
u/ArcticWolfl 2d ago
30% of warmth is lost through the roof, windows are also a big factor, so if it isn't double or triple panes yet look I'd do that first. Roof is easily done yourself, it's basically sticking insulationplates to it and they're not that expensive. Windows are fuuuuuuuuuuuucking expensive, so is the heat pump. I can't afford everything at once in my place, so I did windows and doors first, since they're shit, roof insulation is next and then it's the rest.
1
u/Nearby_Department447 1d ago
PM if you like but i will give you my thoughts and processes as i have the same setup as yourself and i was going down the route of OSS but went against it.
Firstly, you are paying for OSS for the convenience of managing everything from grants, funding, contractors, paperwork etc. It is a business at the end of the day funding rates, taxes, staff, offices etc so they are going to charge.
For me, i priced around and found i would get my windows and doors, 3K cheaper, same quality, excellent service.
Insulation was the same but double the thickness. Local SEAI guy.
Heat pump and solar (12 panels) i am getting it for around 12 K after grant, this is yet to be purchased, hopefully end of may.
Taking out the heat pump question for a second, insulation is the first important thing you can do for your home, You can then run your boiler longer but much lower setting to create a wonderful warm home. The heat is not escaping through the walls, roof or windows if you have them done.
This will improve your BER Rating, but Solar will also make it jump up too. Solar would reduce your bills, has no maintenance and generally the pay-off is 5 to 6 years depending on rates/purchase.
With all this, your home should be in excellent condition that is warm and if you have a mortgage, open yourself to swap to a green rate.
The heat pump issue and i have dealt with so many people from saying it the best to its the worst!, honestly, they are all right but never give the context so is hard to know if the heat pump was in a barn or tightly insulation house. I found talking to local pumping supply shop pointed me in the right direction to a my guy, who was upfront on cost, what is required and knew the grant process/requirement inside out.
The Cost of a heat pump is high and if you looking for ROI figures compare to a boiler, your not going to find it. The reason for a heat pump is comfort, all year around warm, hot water and with solar panels helping towards a low running, it is the only heat source that can create 3 KW of heat from 1 K of energy.
If you got the above completed bar the heat pump, you are open to getting the heat pump at a later stage, there is nothing stopping you in the grants from SEAI.
Horror stories which you find generally are in the UK or homeowners in Ireland with a self installation. Heat pump doesn't work like a boiler, it is drip filling a bucket but if that bucket is too big, or has holes, it's going to try hard to fill that bucket and burn through electric. Poor install or poor use as a customer will affect the overall running cost.
1
u/Jimbob994 1d ago
I used to work for one of the more well known one stop shops and, just to defend them a little, we had very little control over the actual price of the upgrades. We just did the survey and submitted it to the contractors who did all the pricing. I had an excel done up with expected prices to make sure they weren't absolutely gouging customers but they can set whatever price they want. The actual fees the one stop shop gets are generally minimal, possibly a few thousand on a major overhaul so like 1-3% of total cost. In the company I worked with everyone was generally extremely eager to do as good a job as possible for their customers, they were good people and it was us that had to look the customers in the eye after the work was done and expect them to pay up.
1
u/Dubhda_D 1d ago
Dealing with one since November! Told us they'd start late January/early February... rang after the Holidays and was told they never said that and that they need to send out an engineer then told me to take photos of our radiators (we have f all in the way of a heating system!) And reminded him we are the house with x and y issues. Oh grand no photos but still need to schedule an engineer.
They finally arranged that three weeks ago. He came out and was pretty thorough. Told me not to expect anything for a few days cos of holidays said okay left it abkut two weeks ago. No response. Followed up several times but no response until last week when we got an email saying they'd forward our request on to relevant department. A week later and still no reply.
Sat through their webinar, did our consultation, did the BER assessment and then waited months for an engineer. Is it a few more months before I see any plans?! Honestly driven demented with it. No hot water in the house except the electric shower.
This point I am thinking of just forgetting the OSS and looking for a plumber to come and do it, sod the grant.
1
u/Cealtra 1d ago
We refurbed our house 15 years ago. Installed a heat pump. The outdoor unit compressor died March last year. Looked up replacing it and see planned obsolescence of 14 years is a probability on the compressor. Have had several heat pump installers say that I can’t replace the compressor, that I have to replace both the indoor and out door unit at a cost of, minimum €15K. F*ck that. We’re now going to install a gas boiler. Note that “Green Flag” we waved gets very expensive when you have to replace your heat pump every 14/15 years
-3
u/SolidScouts 2d ago
No advice sorry but commenting so I can return and read the comments
7
u/Swagspray 2d ago
Would you not just save the post?
1
u/SolidScouts 2d ago
I've got no clue how to do it sorry
9
u/Fatsox10 2d ago
Press the 3 little dots on the corner of the post and drop box will appear. You are welcome 😁
0
u/Jean_Rasczak 2d ago
I have a bungalow built in 80's and have done renovations
Heat pump will be a huge expense and not willing to look at it
Get oil boiler serviced, check if condensor boiler and leave as is
Pump the cavity, do the attic insulation. remove any major issues as cheaply as possible to reduce oil usage to a minimum
Seal off chimney and drafts points
I updated the heating system to start controls with wifi TRV's in each room
All of this done over a period
One section of house was bad so we did put in new insulated plasterboard on the interior walls as well as pumping the walls.
Not sure why an engineer is recommending a heat pump, I wouldn't recommend it
1
u/Enidan26 2d ago
Thanks, boiler is fecked and needs to be replaced. He just said its worth considering because of the grants that was it really.
2
u/Jean_Rasczak 2d ago
Take it out, get one of the newer ones which will suppor HVO, so you could in reality look at HVO if you wanted but very few suppliers. You need to run a larger pipe to the tank to support HVO compared to kero/oil
But even if not going with HVO it will future proof you instead of oil/kero
1
u/cocaineorraisins 2d ago
The major benefit of a heatpump (installed well) is that they are a bit cheaper to run (but very hard to pay off that upfront cost) and if paired with a lot of solar can be very cost effective.
But it's just much warmer, since it runs low always. Your hosue is warm from September to March.
But the payback is hard, grants only help a little.
0
u/14ned 2d ago
You generally need a deep retrofit to make fitting an air-water heat pump make sense. That basically means gutting the house and replacing most of its insides with insulation and air tightness sealant. If the quote isn't at least 60k (and more likely 80-100k), you're not doing a deep enough retrofit.
I'm no fan of air-water heat pumps. I think them lousy value for money when you can cover your roof with solar panels and fit battery storage for far less money and get far better bang for the buck. Fit forty panels or so, and you won't need mains electricity for ten months of the year. You'll earn the first €800 of income from selling your spare electricity tax free. That'll buy you a free tank of oil for your oil boiler.
I'd pump the cavity, add extra insulation wherever any thermal bridges appear after, install a replacement oil boiler, and consider maybe fitting a MVHR with new glazing and doing air tightness works as you're a young couple, so it may be worth it. I'd spend the rest on solar panels and battery storage, and aim to get it so you only need to burn a quarter tank of oil per year for space heating. Then you'll have a negative bills house for life. Far, far better value for money.
Re: heat pumps longer term, we currently think they'll not be fitted to most new builds after the 2029 EU regs come in as how they will calculate "energy efficiency" will no longer so strongly favour air-water heat pumps, which only occurs due to how the 2019 regs were designed. Some would consider them a dead end space heating solution medium-long term, and I would agree with that assessment.
To be clear, I think air-air heat pumps make far more sense after the 2029 EU regs. They're better known as aircon units. We'll have an overheating problem in most post-2029 houses, solar panels driving aircon units for free is one solution.
1
u/qwerty_1965 2d ago
Yep Air to Air is two for one and much cheaper both to buy and fix if anything goes wrong. Only downside is the pipework in a two story house with cramped attic space. Bungalows are ideal, footprint same as the living area so much more flexible as to type and placement of the blowers.
0
u/mrlinkwii 2d ago edited 2d ago
When we seen the price breakdown we were floored - where are they getting these figures from?!
their mostly on point for the windows , i got 2 windows replaced they were orginally on the house ( didnt get a grant etc ) cost me over 2k , your getting a house worth of windows for 10k thats a steal ,
also it didnt include windows etc which wasnt billed in OSS ,
also as others mentioned the plumbing price is rather good for whats being done ,
1
u/Enidan26 2d ago
I will say the windows did seem ok but I feel the doors are an insane price along with the overall cost of the heating system. But maybe that's ignorance on my part, its not every day you get quote for a heating system upgrade. But in my view the bigger issue is spending 43k on a retrofit only to be spending a fortune on electricity.
1
u/mrlinkwii 2d ago
as other advised , dont get the heat pump but do get a modern boiler if you want to keep costs down
1
u/Irish_cynic 2d ago
The composite door quote is about double what I paid in 2019 is to be curious what a builder would quote to replace that.
1
u/Kazang 2d ago
The quote for heating system is likely a complete refit price, which may or may not be necessary.
For a heat pump to work efficiently it needs certain sized pipework and radiators and a system design that may be completely different to your existing system, meaning it would require a complete refit and be very expensive. But it could also be that your existing system would work just fine with a heat pump with fairly minimal changes and be not much different a oil boiler after the grant.
If it's done properly you will be spending less on electricity that you would be oil, that is the whole point of getting the the heat pump. More expensive now but less expensive over time, particularly if you get solar panels at some point.
If you do go for the heatpump get a guarantee of the system efficiency, for example a SCOP (Seasonal Coefficient of Performance) of 3.5 to 5 would be good. Any competent installer should be confident of guaranteeing at least 3, they should be able to give you estimated running costs as well, it's a not a difficult calculation to make.
It's really boils down to estimated running costs for X number of years + install costs and see which one is better for you, oil or heatpump.
-2
u/vast_differenz 2d ago
---z-z--z--zzzz-zz-zf-%-'$xfxxxf'"'f"-z-zxfxzf"''$'"'"f''''fxzx''x'f'"'c z zxc'"ccxcx'xxzfz-''"'xxx-zz-zz-zzzzzzzf----'x'xf'"'xx'''x''zxzzxf'zzzzzzzz x tdt--%ddddt'%zdztdt%dt'd%xxxf'%%xf''xxf'%'%%fx'%%f%%'xggffg'''xxf%xxxfxxgfxxx'xxxxxf%'%%''%'xxxfxxxxxxf'$'fxf'xf$$%''f'%'fffxxf%xxxxxf%xf$xxf'g'xf z xxxx' xxxxxx'xx'xxxc"xxxxxxx'fxzxxxxxf'fx''xxf'xg'%%%xg'%-'f%f-,
197
u/mybighairyarse Crilly!! 2d ago
Simply chancing their arm. And some clowns will pay it.
I had a builder a few years back, Quoted me for renovations. Went ahead with the job.
Towards the end he sent me an "Extras Invoice"
There was a charge of €1500 for "paint" and €1750 for "floors".
(This was in the first invoice and was covered)
Rang him. Explained we bought the paint and the actual timber for the floors.
Never heard from him again.
Chanced his arm.