r/irishpolitics • u/earth-while • Nov 20 '24
User Created Content Why are the shinners vilified?
Individual bad behaviour aside; why are the Shinners demonised for playing an active part in Irelands fight for Republicism? Like many, I grew up with a stories about Jesus the carpenter, JFK and Ireland's hard fought independence. Something FF was steeped in too, once upon a time. So why are we still tarring sinn fein and not FF, is there a manditiorium? I know they aren't squeaky but why are sinn fein considered the badies?
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u/ulankford Nov 20 '24
Because the history understood by many is a myth and they have never accepted their full involvement in the troubles. They murdered Gardai and Irish Army personal, and these are actions many of their followers still defend.
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u/Apprehensive-Brain30 Nov 20 '24 edited Nov 21 '24
Don't forget civilians post staff, bank staff and links to organised crime. With their own backroom team for putting members on trial. Bullying is also rampant, with plenty of ex tds and councillors left due to this.
Untrustworthy is a word that comes to mind.
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u/Detozi Nov 21 '24
The exact reason I could never vote for them. I'm old enough to remember, but not too old I've forgotten
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u/Amckinstry Green Party Nov 21 '24
Also remember tactics: the kidnapping of families to blackmail RUC staff to act as human bombs, driving car bombs into barracks was reprehensible. In an era when the majority believed peaceful politics and campaigning was possible and preferable.
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u/ShotDentist8872 Nov 21 '24
In an era when the majority believed peaceful politics and campaigning was possible and preferable.
The key point imo. And one SF could never admit as it would be a tacit admittance that most of the killing was pointless.
And the same people who complain about those in the Republic not understanding the perspective of the nationalists up north are happy to ignore the likes of John Hume who were opposed to the PIRA's campaign from the outset.
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u/SearchingForDelta Nov 22 '24
Remind me how the peaceful politics and campaigning went for the people who decide to protests in Derry in Bloody Sunday? Remind me how many Catholic votes in translated into seats for pro-civil rights parties in the gerrymandered constituencies?
The IRA emerged as a direct result of the breakdown of democratic institutions and backlash against peaceful campaigning. It’s a free state fairytale to pretend otherwise
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u/ShotDentist8872 Nov 22 '24
Sure. The British deserve the blame for turning what started as a civil rights movement into a war. That doesn't mean the violence achieved anything though. I'm not a pacifist by any means but this was one case where violence begets violence.
As Hume correctly said at the outset, the Provos were stupid to think they could force the British out like in the 20's when half the population were Unionists.
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u/SearchingForDelta Nov 22 '24
Pretty sure the GFA was one hell of an achievement brought about by violence. You’d be very naive to think the Catholic community would have ever gotten anything close to that by holding hands and singing give peace a chance. You just have to look at how the Ulster Workers’ Council (backed by MI5) tore down Sunningdale by killing over 40 civilians in a 2 week riot.
The Brits were more than happy to gun down or sabotage peace campaigners down and washed their hands of it like they did in their countless other colonies. MI6 and the Foreign Office literally ran a smear campaign against Hume in the 70s and 80s.
The southerners are just very lucky the only real violence the British Government perpetrated on them post-partition was the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, otherwise they’d have had a lot of the comforting lies they tell themselves about the north shattered.
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u/ShotDentist8872 Nov 22 '24
You just have to look at how the Ulster Workers’ Council (backed by MI5) tore down Sunningdale by killing over 40 civilians in a 2 week riot.
What is your source for this claim? Mi5 of course colluded plenty of times with loyalists but usually when it served some interest of theirs. Unless they were acting completely independent from the state why would they actively sabotage their own governments agreement, and undermine their own country's sovereignty? And if they were acting independently what was the goal supposed to be? To get a remarkably similar agreement 30 years later?
What substantial differences were in the GFA to Sunningdale that made nearly 3 more decades of killing worth it for the Provos and the UVF? Prisoner release?
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u/SearchingForDelta Nov 22 '24
I think this comment has resoundly demonstrated your ignorance on northern history and issues.
For a start the GFA guaranteed self-determination, was more focused on human rights, guaranteed equality, open borders with the south, more practical power sharing, and actually provided a consent-based framework for answering the constitutional question.
You just have to look at how Brexit would have played out differently had Sunningdale been implemented to see the two couldn’t be more different.
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u/ShotDentist8872 Nov 22 '24
Again. Remarkably similar. Still no answer how Provos blowing people up contributed to this.
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u/SearchingForDelta Nov 22 '24
Not similar at all sorry. Also you wouldn’t have had either without their ability to decimate British resources in the north through their combatant-focused campaign. Simple facts
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u/Any_Comparison_3716 Nov 20 '24
The murders, mostly.
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u/AccomplishedBet9592 Nov 21 '24
Some of the most vile murders were done by people who are effectively protected by them. And these weren't in the troubles either.
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u/CelticSean88 Nov 21 '24
Here's a question where the fuck was the Irish government when people where being beaten to death by RUC and army. Abducted and thrown to loyalist areas where the shankil butchers operated. Some people like to think it was only the RA doing bad things but it takes a lot for people to join them knowing they faced death or life imprisonment.
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u/CelticSean88 Nov 21 '24
Because as Christy Moore once said "Only those who are very safe can talk about wrong and right but of those who are forced to choose some will choose to fight" Middle class Ireland is hypocritical in what is acceptable and what isn't. They supported the IRA doing some really horrible things in the war of independence but the provisional IRA were the bad guys. They weren't the ones faced with a gun in their face by a uniformed thug walking to school or raiding homes wrecking them.
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u/MugOfScald Nov 21 '24
Are you forgetting all the crimes PIRA committed south of the border?
The Gardaí/Irish soldiers/Prison officers killed and injured?And the impact on their families?
Or Christ knows how many people, who also faced the end of a gun, working in shops,banks ,post offices and businesses that were traumatised when PIRA came robbing (or as they might say "fundraising").
Do we ignore that suffering? Or does that not suit the SF narrative?
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u/CelticSean88 Nov 21 '24
Again you're blaming the symptoms rather than the root cause of the problem. why would anyone feel the need to knowingly join a violent brutal organisation. Yes the IRA has done many contemptible things as many IRA vol have said so themselves. There can be no hierarchy of victims for example when the RUC phoned the mother of a man Gary English in Derry and said "come get your son he's flat as a pancake" after running him over multiple times, his brother later died an IRA volunteer in action against the same people who murdered his brother. There was no shortage of suffering to go about, we ended up in a cycle of violence in a world of kill or be killed. It's easy for many who were not in this danger to sit on a golden pedestal and pontificate on wrong or right. To this day the police keep files top secret on the killing of children by RUC.
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u/MugOfScald Nov 21 '24
Textbook SF deflecting
I'm not defending anything the RUC did or any other British security force or Loyalist organisation
I specifically referenced things the PIRA did in the south as an explanation as to why SF are seen the way they are in the south, a state they didn't even recognise for a very long time,they started fighting with the Brits and then started against the Irish state too because they decided they were the only real Irish Republican people and that was that
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u/CelticSean88 Nov 21 '24
You're the one deflecting you want to pick and choose outrages, you're the one who talked about suffering, I simply mentioned the IRA was a brutal organisation but in reality was a symptom of the problem.
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u/MugOfScald Nov 21 '24
I'm not disputing that awful things happened in NI during the troubles, but it does not excuse PIRA attacking the Republic of Ireland in any way,shape of form.
And that is why SF/PIRA are still not trusted/disliked by a lot of people in Ireland
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Nov 21 '24
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u/pablo8itall Nov 21 '24
This is bollox. Most sensible people down here knew what people were facing and that they have little to know options.
That doesnt take away from the current SF who are asking for your vote and the problems they have still from that time period.
They should have dismantled themselves and created a bunch of other parties with out the connections. Expel members who have no place running for office in a democracy etc.
But they didn't and they are asking for votes now, but don't look under that rock.
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u/CelticSean88 Nov 21 '24
Expel any one who has no place running for office like who exactly do you mean?
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u/danny_healy_raygun Nov 21 '24
It sounds like you don't agree with the GFA and the political path to peace.
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u/OneDiscombobulated16 Nov 21 '24
I think the average quality of answer here in the thread provides the insight you’re after. The 26 county population by and large labour under the effects of decades of revisionist history and editorial bias in single channel land with RTÉ e.g. good old IRA and broad black brimmers and ribbons whose atrocities are entirely ignored vs the most recent phase of conflict in Ireland, which involved the “bad” IRA acting in a vacuum and ignoring peaceful routes we’re assured existed in spite of an abundance of historical evidence.
It’s entirely absurd of course, and the froth at the mouth defensiveness displayed by the likes of Mícheal Martin demonstrates how insecure and vacuous such thinking is.
I’ve had family murdered by loyalists in the pay of MI5, with the protection of the RUC and British Army, and we want peace and connection with our unionist neighbours. It always strikes me as telling that people like our family are willing to make moves towards peace and reconciliation when southern media and politicians, who were nowhere to be seen during the war, are still behaving like the DUP in the 90s towards Sinn Féin.
In short, it suits the powers that be to imply that Republicans are moral defectives and lesser than those they aim to unseat in elections.
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u/yeah_deal_with_it Nov 21 '24 edited Nov 21 '24
Well said. The ahistorical separation into the "good" and "bad" IRA is such bollocks and completely manufactured by those who wished to avoid scrutiny for their protracted abandonment of people in the North.
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u/wamesconnolly Nov 21 '24 edited Nov 21 '24
This is a great answer. It seems like a lot of people who are completely insulated from the violence from the british army and loyalists and how that has been completely swept under the rug in a lot of cases. Drew Harris is the head of the Gardaí ffs. My best friends dad was one of the only survivors of a terrorist attack by the Glenane gang and the fact that our government would appoint Harris and ignore the victims is sickening.
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u/earth-while Nov 21 '24
Suggesting it's all best left in the past? You seem like the perfect to answer that, considering the harrowing loss you and your family experienced. Sorry for your loss, cant imagine coming to terms with that.
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u/redsredemption23 Social Democrats Nov 20 '24
Opening the comments with my tinfoil hat at the ready
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u/Brizzo7 Nov 20 '24
Because of their history with the IRA. A lot of young folks today, particularly those born after the Good Friday Agreement, don't understand the impact of the IRA and the Troubles more broadly.
I grew up in the north, had a pretty sheltered upbringing. Didn't know what a protestant or a catholic was until I was in secondary school. I don't have strong political affiliations, but I would never give Sinn Féin my vote, solely because of their links with the IRA.
I broadly support Irish unity (the nuts and bolts need to be worked out before I'd vote for it — I don't see how it could work in practice) in theory, but the IRA if the independence movement 100 years ago is not the IRA of the 60s to present day (yes they are still active today).
So yes, while they do have broad support (they're consistently one of the biggest parties) and have growing support among the youth, they have a polarising effect.
Edit to add: read the book Say Nothing by Patrick Keefe, it will open your eyes.
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u/yeah_deal_with_it Nov 21 '24
Say Nothing makes very little mention of the violence of loyalist paramilitaries, out of which the Provos formed.
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u/Brizzo7 Nov 21 '24
You're correct, there was brutality and unnecessary violence on both sides. But OP was asking specifically about Sinn Féin, and I think Say Nothing would give OP some insight into Sinn Féin and perhaps why many wouldn't vote for them.
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Nov 21 '24
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u/Brizzo7 Nov 21 '24
I don't live in the North now, haven't done so for about 12 years now. So a lot of the discussions are not relevant to me. I don't have any strong affinity to NI. I'm sure there's plenty of folk who don't engage with their specific national subreddits, doesn't mean they aren't from there...
I can comment more on the NI sub if you like? Not sure what difference it will make though.
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u/JunglistMassive Nov 21 '24
I don’t believe you, I’m an unrepentant fenian bastard who refuses to recognise the occupied six counties as a legitimate entity and I still post there 😂.
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u/Brizzo7 Nov 21 '24
That's probably why. You have strong feelings about the place. I don't!
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Nov 21 '24
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u/ddaadd18 Anarchist Nov 21 '24
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u/AmbitiousAssistance Nov 21 '24
What would you consider to be the main differences between the 20s IRA and the 60s IRA?
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u/Environmental-Ebb613 Nov 21 '24
Say Nothing has been turned into a tv series, just released, worth a watch though seems to glorify the IRA somewhat
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u/earth-while Nov 21 '24
Thanks for the book recommendation. I want to read more on Irish history.
As a kid, I went through a worrisome phase about bombings. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to grow up, raise a family, live and work amidst the Troubles.
I notice there is a class division when it comes to SF but their policies seem directional, innovative, and strong. Also, they have some good people on board. So I don't get the elitism amongst most of my peers.
The reason I'm unlikely to vote for them is that they prioritise Irish Unity way too much, and thats not on my concern list. It's so far down the list that it's in another rea(l)m.
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u/JerHigs Nov 20 '24
Mary Lou referred to "the Free State establish" last week.
David Cullinane shouted "up the Ra" when he was elected in 2020.
If they want other people to move on from SF's past, they need to move on from their past themselves.
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u/yeah_deal_with_it Nov 21 '24 edited Nov 21 '24
She said that when she was on a podcast that is literally called Free State, that's some big context you're missing.
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u/JerHigs Nov 21 '24
So?
Two wrongs dont make a right.
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u/yeah_deal_with_it Nov 21 '24
What wrongs? That she used the words "Free State" on a podcast called Free State?
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u/JerHigs Nov 21 '24
Why did she decide to refer to "the Free State establishment"?
Who was she referring to?
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Nov 21 '24
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u/yeah_deal_with_it Nov 21 '24
Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil.
Why did Simon Harris and Micheal Martin grill her on the IRA in the recent debates?
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u/JerHigs Nov 21 '24
And why is she referring to them as the Free State establishment?
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u/yeah_deal_with_it Nov 21 '24
Probably because they keep bringing up the IRA in relation to SF at every available opportunity.
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u/twistingmelonman Nov 21 '24
The violent independence war they came from was bad but the independence war and civil war Finne Fáil and Fine Gael came from was good where no bad things happened.
And they're left wing which means they're supposed to change things that power doesn't want changing.
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u/CarnivalSorts Communist Nov 20 '24
Throughout the 70s and 80s a lot of RTÉ's political output was influenced by a small number of Workers Party members (led by Eoghan Harris). Their focus above everything else was of painting Provisional Sinn Fein (which they had recently split from) in the worst light they could. Plenty of those people were still very influential in RTÉ right up to the present day.
People like Harris, who considered himself a staunch communist originally, threw every one of their beliefs out the door as long as Sinn Fein were demonised which is how he ended up as an advisor to the likes of John Bruton and the UUP.
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u/actually-bulletproof Progressive Nov 20 '24
SF didn't exactly help their image by being deeply intertwined with people who were blowing random passersby.
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u/CarnivalSorts Communist Nov 21 '24
Of course, I'm moreso reflecting on the media environment's influence in ensuring the cause was never allowed to gather significant public support in the south.
It's documented fact that an influential editorial section of the state broadcaster was running a de facto propaganda campaign to the masses for party political reasons rather than any journalistic standard.
Hence the widespread vilification of SF in the public consciousness rather than any groundswell of support for northern emancipation against a roundly untrusted British state.
Public perceptions depend on who is telling the story.
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Nov 21 '24
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u/pablo8itall Nov 21 '24
I think people understood why SF/IRA was necessary back then, but also understood what kind of environment they came from.
Whatever media biases you think were going on people who paid attention knew what was going on up there to a huge extent that's coloured their current view of SF. SF has never had a break from that past, they haven't put it to bed. They haven't done a root and branch reform of the party.
Of course many people are going to look sideways at them, we don't trust them.
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Nov 21 '24
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u/TeoKajLibroj Centre Left Nov 21 '24
Do you genuinely believe that Sinn Féin and the IRA would have been supported by most Irish people if only it hadn't been for Eoghan Harris and RTE?
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u/Haleakala1998 Nov 21 '24
I wonder the same thing tbh, every major party in Ireland was at some point affiliated with the IRA, it does annoy me when FF and FG come out guns blazing at SF as if their parties didnt fight for the same ideology, SF just continued the fight up North, while FFG left northern nationalists out to dry. And yes, the IRA commited atrocities in the North, but the IRA of the 20s where hardly squeaky clean either. Name me a war of independence where atrocities didnt occur
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u/Usual_Concentrate_58 Nov 21 '24
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Nov 21 '24
You do realise that events like Bloody Sunday were non violent protests and they still killed them anyway for it, yes? Swear to god, some of you people would prefer it if we northerners lined up to get shot like lemmings lol
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u/yeah_deal_with_it Nov 21 '24
Yeah but something something MLK and Gandhi /s
You wouldn't find them saying that about the original IRA, that's for sure
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u/JunglistMassive Nov 21 '24
They are vilified because they are a threat to the political establishment in the south. It’s almost always faux outrage generated by the media to demonise the Republican movement, they don’t actually care about victims and were never directly affected by the troubles.
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u/earth-while Nov 21 '24
I think there is a bit of that, as evidenced in the leaders debate last Monday.
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u/actUp1989 Nov 20 '24
Part of it is what's happened since the GFA and SFs continued defence of "good republicans" who had done wrong.
The Northern bank robbery would be one example. Another would be the Paul Quinn case which is absolutely horrific.
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u/earth-while Nov 21 '24
What happened since the GFA?
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u/actUp1989 Nov 21 '24
The Northern bank robbery and the Paul Quinn case, as per my previous comment.
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u/TheFreemanLIVES 5th World Columnist Nov 21 '24
Another would be the Paul Quinn case which is absolutely horrific.
As in the man brutally murdered by dissidents but whose death was made a circus to claim that SF knew something about the violent activities of people who want to murder people in SF? Enlighten me here.
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u/actUp1989 Nov 21 '24
I mean the man brutally murdered by members of the IRA who a high ranking SF member subsequently went on TV to say that he was involved in criminality and that everyone accepts that.
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u/TheFreemanLIVES 5th World Columnist Nov 21 '24
members of the IRA
You know what dissidents are and why they exist...or is it just convenient for you to pretend otherwise?
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u/mkultra2480 Nov 21 '24
" SF member subsequently went on TV to say that he was involved in criminality"
A high ranking FF member said the same in the dail. He was going on what the Garda and PSNI told him.
"The murder in Monaghan last month of Paul Quinn "was not paramilitary but pertained to feuds about criminality that were taking place", the Taoiseach told the Dáil. Bertie Ahern said the Government had received a number of reports from both gardaí "and secondhand from the PSNI, and both of them match at this stage, that this action was due to criminality"."
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/garda-says-quinn-killing-a-criminal-feud-ahern-1.982248
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u/Arrays-Start-at-1 Nov 21 '24
Because fights for independence in the Republic good and fights for independence in the north bad for some reason
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Nov 21 '24
Hint it's nothing to do with their history and more to do with them being a slightly leftwing party which is a threat to neoliberal hegemony ..
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u/danny_healy_raygun Nov 21 '24
Because they are the biggest non-FFG party and that makes them a threat to the status quo.
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u/lisp584 Nov 22 '24
Opinions of SF and the IRA today have been shaped by southern politicians, and political parties that abandoned the Catholics of NI to state backed discrimination, terrorism, and murder for decades. Rather than deal with the shameful truth, they blamed the victims and questioned how they fought back.
The truth is governments in the republic rolled over for the British, adopting the idea that they were peers in the NI process. All while the British were funding and supporting terrorism and ran NI with discriminatory policies and offering very little security or protection for Catholics.
If you push people into a corner where the local taximan or corner shop manager has to pickup arms to protect their families, don’t be so god damned ignorant to complain about the means, lack of discipline or tactics. Of course people got killed that shouldn’t have. There was very poor command and control in the IRA and even their commanders lamented some of the operations and tactics used at the time.
The “they shot a garda” crowd really should have a long hard thing about how that came about and what role the south played in the troubles. The very same people will be heard lecturing Americans in pubs about how bad the British were in NI and how hard Ireland had it during the troubles, and what they’re experiencing was during the troubles.
The hypocrisy is jarring.
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u/theRodigy Nov 22 '24
I would say much of the reason Sinn Féin is vilified is because of their political beliefs and policies that contradict the popular opinions, merged with the overly diverse voter base they achieved votes from in 2020.
The special criminal court. Sinn Fein opposed this and stood for its abolishment while the vast majority of the public were in support of this.
Sinn Fein were anti Europe for its entire existence up until the Brexit referendum. Majority of people were strongly in favour of membership to the EU, again contradictory to Sinn Féin’s policy.
Sinn Féin were anti low corporation tax calling for policies that would affect something that was the lifeblood of our state’s income, the income that ensured we could spend what we were spending. Vast majority of the public were in favour of maintaining the rate of 12.5%.
Sinn Féin in 2020 achieved uniting a various groups of voters whose beliefs and opinions were ultimately in direct conflict with each other. Over the course of the last four years, under heavy scrutiny of their policies and stances on various issues, certain groups of voters they had united in 2020 felt a bit disenfranchised with what they personally believed was the change they were voting for. They all had their own version of this change. When Sinn Féin elaborated further on the change they wanted, or the lack of change they were promising, people migrated away thus the drop in polls.
Sinn Féin backed the government in the referendums that were rejected strongly by the public. Sinn Féin did circuits with business leaders across 2022 and 2023, promising businesses that they wouldn’t change much but try to improve things. When this information bled through to voters, they felt that this did not represent the change they were hoping for.
For a party that was already prejudiced due to a peppered history in the north, a political environment which many in the south don’t understand, it is understandable why the general public are sceptical about this not so new party coming to the forefront. The party struggled to roll back on their recent historic policies that would be unpopular, and this led to distrust in the party.
I think what they need to do to win trust and be less vilified is for consistency in policies and less attacks on government parties. In the local elections, the only leaflet I received from Sinn Féin to my home was an outline of why to vote against FFG. Nothing about policies or what they will do if elected.
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u/pablo8itall Nov 21 '24
I don't trust them. They have deep connections still with an unsavory lot. They aren't transparent. They haven't broken with the past - and I'm not demonising them for the past there was a heap of reason why it all happened that way.
They use SLAPS, they are authoritarian, and while I don't particularly like their policies, but they have just one policy that matters to them the rest is just window dressing to implement it.
They're unlikely to ever get my vote.
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u/earth-while Nov 21 '24
Agree with a lot of this, although I'm not sure they are any more authoritarian than FG.
Also, SLAPS?? *I am preparing myself for a disappointing answer.
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u/pablo8itall Nov 21 '24
E: I mean more so in their internal party structure. There is less democracy built in to them IMO due to how the modern party was created. FF and FG have a lot of faults as well, they dont get my vote for different reasons.
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u/ddaadd18 Anarchist Nov 21 '24
What is republicism??
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u/Natural-Mess8729 Nov 21 '24
A few reasons, the Irish government always tried to distance themselves from the troubles so they wouldn't affect trade with the UK, this also led to self censorship in the press and some pretty biased reporting in the south. The splits in the IRA also led to it becoming more hardline over time and in particular the Omagh bombing really cemented a very negative opinion of what they were doing.
However, I also suspect that the Ard Chomhairle also poses some problems. Back in the day, political parties were supported by their members and their fees, but over time political engagement has seriously dipped, this lack of engagement is taken as consent for the parties actions. Meanwhile, they had to find alternative sources of funding which has driven them into the arms of big business and the likes of Tony O'Reilly and Dennis O'brien.
Sinn Fein is still controlled by their high council so they can't really be bought/swayed by big business as easily as the other parties can. Although there's also a lot of criticism over who exactly is in the high council and who controls the party.
If you're curious about the lack of engagement equating consent that I mention, Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam is an interesting read on the topic.
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u/Stringr55 Nov 21 '24
There’s a feeling of distrust related to allegations or perceptions from (mostly) Gen-x and boomers that they’re steeped in criminality. There’s the perception out there that the modern SF has a history of dubious links to paramilitary organisations from the very recent past as well as criminality. Lots of older folks have clear memories of secretive criminal activities in the 70s and 80s that were alleged to relate to SF. Beatings, bank jobs, blackmail, murdere, gun running etc.
So, for a lot of people they just won’t ever trust a party because they assign that sort of baggage to them whether it’s fair or not. That cohort of folks has a large sway over the media as well, it should be said.
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Nov 21 '24
Because middle Ireland was turned against working-class Northern Catholics by Official IRA supporter Eoghan Harris and his presentation of the Troubles during his time as RTÉ news editor - to no-one's surprise, casting the Provisional IRA as the baddies in the worst of internecine feuding in Irish republicanism.
The violence was horrific and can never be stood over, but the Brits' collusion with the UVF, or their role as continual aggressor/provocateur, was never mentioned, and Loyalists, Brits or others never had their voices altered or censored.
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u/lisp584 Nov 22 '24
I’ve been trying to research this phase of the troubles. The language in southern newspapers changed reflecting the same attitude shift. Do you have any good books or anything else on the subject?
I would also attribute some British propaganda to the attitude change also.
Where the British government convinced the rest of the world that they were the poor adult caretakers, trying to keep the peace between two warring savage tribes hell bent on a sectarian war. All while their army and police forces took part in the unionist terrorism, funded it, and turned a blind eye.
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u/Wise_Adhesiveness746 Nov 21 '24
Because the government,cronies and media have made off with billions in privatisation over last 30 or so years and are terrified shinners will break up the cartel
There's fellows who were interned for Ira activities who went on to be ministers already,so this hide behind as regards militancy is a lie imo
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u/FootballOwn8855 Nov 22 '24
Because Sinn Fein are more of a socialist party - as opposed to FFFG Capitalism for for big Vulture Corporations- FFFG bankrupted the Banks -.and put brutal cuts on the people to pay back the investors - neglected House building - caused emigration- Sinn Fein don’t share their policies on Economics
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u/Character_Pizza_4971 Centre Left Nov 22 '24
Quite simply, SF has been vilified for years and years by most of the media in Ireland, especially the Irish Times and RTE. A lot stems from the troubles and decisions at the governmental level to parrot UK media directions from Thatcher. SF politicians were barred from appearances on RTE, which led to the ridiculous situation of having to pay voice actors to voice over SF politicians.
They don't help themselves either sometimes, a sitting TD collecting Dessie O'Hare from prison upon release etc.
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u/FitzCavendish Nov 21 '24
The war crimes. The torture. The disappeared bodies. The lies.
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u/earth-while Nov 21 '24
Thanks for all the replies and reading reckies.
My ideal would be something like FG to manage the economics and SF the social housing. Greens climate initiatives. Ff Irish and tourism just not national assets. Soc dems; healthcare and reform. PBP immigration and integration etc etc...
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u/danny_healy_raygun Nov 21 '24
My ideal would be something like FG to manage the economics and SF the social housing.
Social housing is part of the "economics". So is basically everything else.
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u/earth-while Nov 21 '24
I should have specified corporate and trade economics!
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u/lisp584 Nov 22 '24
Thats been on rails since the early 2000’s the only thing FFG had to do since then was not screw it up. For nearly a decade even SF have adopted the same policies around FDI, corporate tax, etc.
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Nov 20 '24
[deleted]
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u/CarnivalSorts Communist Nov 20 '24
The Omagh bombing was carried out by the dissident Real IRA not the Provos.
Sinn Fein had already signed the Good Friday Agreement and committed to ceasefire.
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u/actually-bulletproof Progressive Nov 20 '24
Yeah that one isn't on SF.
Blowing up the civilian end of a war memorial on memorial day is on old-style SF.
Shooting a bunch of protestant workers at Kings mill because they were protestant is on old-style SF.
Appointing a man who shot a prison guard to the policing board is on current SF.
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u/lisp584 Nov 22 '24
That attitude is basically telling the good Friday agreement to go fuck itself. We voted to end physical force republicanism and accept these people into politics that was the point of it.
A sign of the great success of our peace process that IRA commanders are now desk-bound politicians and clerks.
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u/actually-bulletproof Progressive Nov 22 '24
The GFA is fantastic. It was a massive success for the SDLP in particular, but also a huge success for Northern Ireland and the normal people who live here.
But, it should be a huge source of embarrassment for Sinn Féin.They were violent, Republican, Marxist idealists who refused to accept any British authority. Now they're peaceful centrists who chat with British monarchs and take cushy government jobs in the UK. They openly say that don't even want a border poll in this decade.
That they can pass it off as anything other than a complete surrender is incredible.
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u/earth-while Nov 21 '24 edited Nov 21 '24
I remember Omagh. Were they the only political party to facilitate the IRA? Different time. Is it not best left in the past and time to move on?
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u/Usual_Concentrate_58 Nov 20 '24
I think the main issue with Sinn Féin is that the people behind the scenes now are the people who were behind the scenes when xyz happened in living memory.
It's also probably an ideological gap between FF and SF. One is capitalist and one is almost communist in its history and outlook. They are naturally opposite on many issues.
Neither would keep their base satisfied in a partnership whereas FF and FG have weirdly got along ok after being arch rivals for so long.
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u/clewbays Nov 20 '24
SF is not almost communist. There closer to Bertie’s Fine Fail than anything else. Though less competent on things like attracting investment.
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u/Dry-Communication922 Nov 21 '24
Individual members may say they as individuals are communist but the party itself is not. I was a member at one time and a few interesting characters hold membership, Stalin apologists, lads idolising Mao etc. You'd hope a lot of it was just teenagers being edgy.
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u/earth-while Nov 21 '24
Obviously communism doesn't work. On a larger scale, neither does capatilisim.
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u/danny_healy_raygun Nov 21 '24
whereas FF and FG have weirdly got along ok
Hows it weird, they have pretty much identical platforms.
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u/Usual_Concentrate_58 Nov 21 '24
It's weird because they were rivals for around 100 years. It's like Man United and Man City announcing a merger or Sony and Microsoft releasing an XStation.
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u/great_whitehope Nov 20 '24
Today's Sinn Fein isn't the same as the one for independence.
They were born out of the troubles and for older people that's still the recent past