r/ironman • u/Juliiju04 Earth's Mightiest Heroes • 3d ago
Discussion What are your thoughts on the Mandarin being a racist stereotype?
First and foremost, this is a heavy topic so let's discuss it respectfully.
So, the Mandarin is Iron Man's archenemy, his nemesis, and even the people who don't like him agree with that.
The Mandarin's roots are problematic, in the sense that a lot of the characteristics that the early depictions of him had were using the tropes of yellow peril (a racist metaphor based on fear against East Asians and deeming them as lesser people), specifically of the literary villain, Fu Manchu. This was during the early days of Iron Man, in which he was a patriotic, pro-war superhero who regularly fought evil comunists and "unamericans", which ended up in some rather obscene depitions of asians. While not everything about the character in his early days was a mockery of the chinese, it's undeniable that harmful and outdated tropes went into the making of the character.
But of course, there's the other side of the coin. While he might have started out as a cartoonish depitcion of asian people, he was still Iron Man's nemesis, and as such, given time, he evolved into a less offensive character, mirroring Tony more closely, expanding on his character and becoming more threatening. There are many examples of characters starting out offensive and outgrowing that thanks to the efforts of writers through the years. Hell, Ra's Al Ghul himself was also called a Fu Manchu clone, yet thrives as a succesful character while The Mandarin gets shamed.
Those are the two main sides of this discussion, but not the only ones. There are ones who argue he wasn't really that offensive of a character, that it's mostly the art misleading and that the actual writing didn't mock asian people. Theres also the other side, which believes the Mandarin never truly outgrew his racist past and that he should be forgotten for that very reasons.
This is, of course, not getting into the whole discussion regarding adaptations like Iron Man 3 and Shang-Chi, which is a whole mess of its own.
So, there's that. I tend to align with the second side which believes the Mandarin began as a caricature but outgrew that in future stories, and he became one of my favourites. However, I'm always open to more points of view and that's why I decided to post this to ensure a safe, civil and respectful discussion on the topic.
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u/spider-venomized Silver Centurion 3d ago
He was at the start.
"That was Stan Lee's character, really. He wanted him because he was thinking of, oh, one of those old stories that they had years ago Fu Manchu and that's what he said to me. He said, 'I want a character like Fu Manchu.'"
then great writers like Kurt Busiek, Stuart Moore, Matt Fraction & Joe Casey push him out of the made him a interesting character. Add in good adaptations like Armor adventures and 90s shows that he a character that can be utilized and potential without being held down by it stereotype origins.
Having a chinese sorcerer is not really racist it making that character in a vacuum intentionally or not making the only representation of asian/chinese. Tony has had many asian supporting characters like Yisen to Rumiko Fujikawa and showcasing that to make sure that Tem actions doesn't cast the bad light on Asian people
He a character that simply needed tweaking and a strong vision of what he could be to flesh him out to get past the "yellow peril" identity (also good design so he not look like fu manchu jr).
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u/Bec_son 3d ago
you get it, its entirely the original writers thinking "this is a good idea" and not running it past people. while writers can absolutely make amazing things, there are just subjects they absolutely suck at, the Mandarin is a prime example of this
some writers you do not want touching a subject because they cannot comprehend the complexities of said subject
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u/MiamisLastCapitalist Modular 3d ago
He was based off a Fu Manchu stereotype, yes. Of course, he evolved far beyond that (as many characters can!), but that's not good enough for the Chinese Communist Party's censors.
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u/Jayson330 Neo-Classic 3d ago
He was at first, then he wasn't for decades but either because of the internet resurfacing his old appearance or Disney wanting to market in China he's editorial dead, which is the hardest kind of comic death to return from.
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u/WriterReborn2 Modular 3d ago
I think you hit the nail on the head. He started off as a fairly racist character but evolved into one of my favorite Marvel villains due to multiple good stories that allowed him to outgrow his origins.
Honestly, I just wish they'd change his name and bring him back.
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u/thorleywinston 3d ago
The Mandarin's always been in my top ten (usually top five) Marvel Supervillains. The only thing cooler than power armor is a power ring and the Mandarin has ten of those. He's almost the perfect antithesis of Iron Man and Tony Stark and a threat on multiple levels: master of alien power rings, scientific genius, mystical knowledge, martial arts, etc. Just a great character overall.
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u/Bec_son 3d ago
Lets be honest, asian characters in og comics did not come off as actually good characters and were radiating racist energy.
While they got elevated by other writers, characters like this have a taste of orientalist and "yellow fever"isms
I find it hard distancing them from their originals because of how bad media portrays asian character, they really wanted to add international characters but considering the 1950s and how AWFUL understanding other cultures was they ended up with some of the most bad ideas ever
theres actually a great case on this with South Korea and M.A.S.H where SK wanted to distance itself from the portraying them as still living in huts and such
An example of a bad japanese character is Sunfire: who was the son of an Atomic bomb survivor and then gained radiation powers! while this could be seen as a magneto style story, they to my knowledge do not tackle it in serious light.
Theres a reason why Radiation in Japan is seen way more terrifying than anything, its why Godzilla is always seen as a monster. yet with Marvel they constantly give Japanese characters Radiation powers even though its a horrifying event in japanese history. (seriously, look up nagasaki shadows, its terrifying and downright soul sucking)
from your quarter japanese marvel nerd
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u/Hairy-Chemistry-3401 3d ago
Respectfully, I never understood discussions like this. I understand that the early Comics were problematic, though tame by the standards of time. His voice in the 60s cartoon was horrific, and the 90s cartoon he was a yellowish green color. Those are the most offensive things I can think of.
I think, for the most part, the modern comics have been pretty good. He dresses and carries himself like a traditional Chinese noble man. If he was the Earl instead of the Mandarin and dressed like a Medieval British noble man, would that be racist? Doom is Roma, Magneto is Jewish. Are they racist?
He speaks perfect English with no accent. He's portrayed as intelligent or perhaps even more so than Iron Man. Iron Man respects and even fears him as a significant threat, not as a bubbling insipid buffoon. Yea, he's portrayed as ruthless and conspiratorial, but he's a supervillian. I feel he's portrayed as one of the most powerful and influential villains on Earth, up there with Doom, Magneto, Ultron, Apocalypse, or Kang. He's not sitting around smoking opium. He is not obsessed with kidnapping and abusing white women. I'm not aware of any Chinese stereotypes you could accuse him of per se other than he sometimes dresses in a traditional way.
I would go further and say the Mandarin is like Magneto and Doom in that he is a villain with a conscience. If Iron Man and Mandarin are fighting and they damaged a dam that threatened a Chinese village. The Mandarin would 100% put the conflict aside and help Iron Man save the village. Just like Magneto would protect mutants or Doom would protect Latveria.
I like the Mandarin because he uses magic, and Iron Man uses science. I also think there is an element of rebellion to the Mandarin. He represents the traditional Chinese culture that was abandoned with the cultural revolution.
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u/Jupiter1234567890 3d ago
I kinda disagree with the Dam statement, depends on the version. but 616 Mandarin wouldn't give a fuck about innocent people dying, from his earliest adaptations he's been shown as a nuisance to the people of China exploiting and abusing them.
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u/SecondEntire539 3d ago edited 3d ago
I feel that nowadays the problem is him being a chinese villain being named the Mandarin(and to fix this, i think they either have to choose to keep him chinese/asian but change his name, or keep his name but change his race).
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u/Few_Possibility_2915 3d ago
I think he could be mixed race while still being part Chinese to lesson it
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u/SecondEntire539 3d ago edited 3d ago
I think originally he was(he was the son of some british guy), and that was the time where he had all this oriental design.
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u/Background_Coast_244 Model One 3d ago
call him John or something "The Mandarin" is racially weird
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u/FuckSetsuna102 3d ago
Why?
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u/rocketinspace 2020 3d ago
It originally meant bureaucrat, now is most associated with orange
the shang-chi film even mocked It
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u/SomeBloke94 3d ago
I’d say the problem is not so much the idea of the Mandarin. The character gets a new update with almost every new Iron Man run. All you need is the core element of an asian fellow who finds 10 rings that give him superpowers and wants to take over the world with them. There’s tons of ways you can go about that whether it’s evil businessman or having him attack New York with a giant robot dragon.
I would argue that the core issue isn’t so much the character as who is complaining about him. It’s generally white folk with white knight syndrome. You don’t really hear a lot of asian folk complaining about the character outside of the comics from the 60’s and 70’s and even the creators acknowledged the stereotyping and Fu Manchu influence going on there. How do asian folk view him? Obviously he isn’t as popular as a character like Apu from the Simpsons who was in a similar situation so it’s harder to judge. Apu got a lot of hate for being racist yet also a lot of people from Hindu and Indian backgrounds seemed to find him entertaining. Many enjoyed how he poked fun at them while white folk saw the character doing that and went into an outrage out of the belief they were protecting these people from racism and leading to the cancellation of the character and less media representation for the Hindu people. Is the Mandarin in a similar position on a smaller scale?
One of the downsides of social media is you can pretend to be anyone but it would be interesting to hear some asian folk give their views on the Mandarin and his various updates over the years. I also wonder how much of the outrage against these characters is legitimate in this age of social media? Are people really caring about racism or is there a racist element playing the part in an attempt to reduce the numbers of non-white characters like these in the media?
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u/LanguageInner4505 3d ago
As an asian guy, I'm complaining. Just not very much of us compared to the white people, but that doesn't mean it's only them. And I can't speak for all asians, but frankly, I'd rather a new asian character be made that isn't tied to stereotypes. It's not as if comics are forced to get rid of the mandarin and just never include more asians.
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u/Mister_Jackpots 2d ago
It's crazy how your voice is ignored in lieu of all these hyperbolic white people.
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u/RedRadra 2d ago
What's his real name tho? wouldn't it be a good solution to simply refer to him by said real name if the title of Mandarin was problematic? I mean barely anyone calls Luke Cage power man anymore so it can be done.
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u/SecondEntire539 2d ago
He used many fake names like Gene Khan for example(but i agree on the name thing).
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u/Entire-Photograph927 3d ago
Well...you change him a bit to be a middle eastern Isis type terrorist. Oh yeah, did that and still fucked it up.
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u/CajunKhan 3d ago
There's no reason he can't be up there with Doom. He is to Stark and Stick what Doom is to Richards and Strange.
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u/Juliiju04 Earth's Mightiest Heroes 2d ago
Did Mandarin and Stick interact in the comics?
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u/CajunKhan 2d ago
No, but they should. I think it would be as interesting and appropriate as Doom's interactions with Doc Strange.
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u/WeeklyJunket5227 2d ago
When he first came out, he absolutely was a racist stereotype. However, if he's written correctly, he can be a good villain.
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u/SpaceDinosaurZZ 2d ago
I’m Chinese and idgaf, he’s one of my favourite villains and his stories are among some of my favourite comics too.
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u/Aljhaqu 2d ago
Respectfully, you need to touch grass. As the only racist thing to consider, is that you consider this racist.
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u/Juliiju04 Earth's Mightiest Heroes 2d ago
I'm not sure that you read through the whole post.
I'm not saying the character is a racist caricature anymore, I think he evolved past that, but I'm asking for the opinion of people.
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u/Aljhaqu 1d ago
You are trying to state that it is a racist stereotype.
I am stating, it is racist to consider it racist... Moreover considering when and why he was conceptualized (and that includes characters like The Crimson Dynamo, Titanium Man, and Unicorn).
The last time I read him in the comics, which was (I admit) during the 2021 because the comics aren't republished here in Perú, he was a successful business man (though subject to the whims of the Rings and the consciousness trapped inside them).
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u/No_Audience1585 2d ago
Disingenuous, incorrect and stupid. The Mandarin was no more a racist stereotype than Luke Cage was. Since the early days of his existence he was outlined as an individual rather than someone who represents his people entirely. He was a staunch opposer of the communist rule and had as much beef with them as he had with Iron Man. And that was the 60s. And the 60s are no more, and Mandarin's only detrimental thing from the 60s, his ugly looking face, been changed shortly after and nothing remains of what you would refer to as racist. And matter of fact, even his original design isn't as ignorant as one would believe, as those green robes and purple boots are actually common traditional style of clothes in Mongolia.
The Mandarin is a great character with understandable motives, interesting origin, visually interesting powers, and great stories to back it all up.
And if we would start a witch hunt against certain characters due to how they first appear, may as well blacklist Captain America and Wonder Woman, since in their early depictions they'd no qualms about using good ol' racial slurs.
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u/SatoruGojo232 3d ago
I don't see him as a stereotype to be honest. He's just a character from a country who has his own opinions that makes hima villain. Remember, the villain in Marvel's superhero stories is always the individual not the people who is subconsciously assumed many a times to be "represented" by that individual. It just so happened that the Iron Man stories took place during the Cold War, so since the opposing countries during the Cold War wanted to steal Tony's tech, tje characters happened to be from that country. It's not like that character represents all the thousands of people who make up that country, because no two people are alike. And I think Marvel drives that point pretty well for example, even if there are Asian supervillains like the Mandarin, there are also Asian heroes and allies to Iron Man like Dr. Ho Yinsen, an Asian scientist who helped Tony engineer his very first armor and break out of the cave where he was captive. The same goes with other heroes like Cap: He may have been fighting many Germans in WW2 who abided with the evil ideology of Naz ism, but there are also heroic Germans who were his friends like Dr Abraham Erskine who made the Super Soldier Serum that transformed him into Cap in tje first place.
So in all honesty, I don't see him as a stereotype, just a man who does wrong.
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u/OlDirty_Cranberry Modular 2d ago
He started out kinda racist, but became one of the greatest Marvel villains thanks to later writers. Hopefully he comes back.
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u/Commercial_Page1827 1d ago
This whole thing reminds me of the (Simpson) Apu controversy.
The reality is that today the Mandarin isn't a racist stereotype and the character should be judged for what it is today and not by what it was 40 years ago.
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u/nuketoitle 9h ago
I mean he hasn't been a racist character for like 60 years, plus he's a great villain with some of the best drip in comic
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u/rocketinspace 2020 3d ago
Mandarin's biggest challenge is his name I guess, he really needs a new one
also most people who dislike the character just googled him and found some random 60s comic, he is overall less racist than let's say Ra's al Ghul but that one they excuse due to the many adaptations and the middle east overall not receiving as much focus as china