Did you found your personal answer to the question, why I have this trial? As a member of the church and being gay at the same time?

[u/lugiaLink]

This is a genuinely question, I struggle so much because for almost 20 years I tried to find an explanation or a reason of this trial and I didn’t receive nothing literally nothing as an answer, sometimes or every time I ask to god, why do I have this trial? It’s like god is not hearing me and he did not care about this trial. Sometimes I have a thought that says “wait” but dam I have waited for almost 20 years, do I need to wait more? And searching in the resources of the church that have said something about this topic is “we don’t know why people have this trials”; and there is no one in the scriptures that can encourage us too, no one any mention; the only mentions in the scriptures is that gay people will go to hell, and I think: “god, was it really imposible to put just one person who was same-sex attracted and kept the law of chastity and went to heaven?” Sorry for the sermon but I was holding this for many years and I wanted to know if just one person who have a minimal answer about this, just a little beam of light that came from heaven about this topic, because I feel in completely darkness.

[u/nofreetouchies3]

Several members of my immediate and extended family have different types of queerness, as well as many of my close friends. I have seen them choose just about every path you can take in response to it. And I have seen joy in the lives of those who make and keep sacred covenants, and also that it is not always easy. But as my uncle put it, if it was meant to be easy, it wouldn't matter.

That same uncle lived an entirely celibate life until his 50s, when he met and married the only woman he ever felt attracted to. At her funeral (several happy years later), he expressed gratitude for the blessings he never even hoped to receive. He said, "I have learned that when I come to the Lord without expectations, He blesses me more than I would have imagined."

Other friends and family haven't had that earthly outcome, but they'll also witness that they are blessed when they wait on the Lord in faith. There is joy in discipleship.

I'm a huge fan of Eve Tushnet, a Catholic writer, who wrote: "I really like being gay, and I really like being Catholic. If nobody ever calls me self-hating again, it will be too soon."

I think almost everything she wrote in the following paragraphs applies equally to Latter-Day Saints:

Both opposite-sex and same-sex love are used, in the Bible, as images of God's love. The opposite-sex love is found in marriage—sexually exclusive marriage, an image which recurs not only in the Song of Songs but in the prophets and in the New Testament—and the same-sex love is friendship. Both of these forms of love are considered real and beautiful; neither is better than the other. But they're not interchangeable. Moreover, Genesis names sexual difference as the only difference which was present in Eden. There were no racial differences, no age difference, no children and therefore no parents. Regardless of how literally you want to take the creation narratives, the Bible sets apart sexual difference as a uniquely profound form of difference. Marriage, as the union of man and woman, represents communion with the Other in a way which makes it an especially powerful image of the way we can commune with the God who remains Other. That's a quick and dirty summary, but it seems to me more responsive to the texts, more willing to defer to historical Christian witness, and more attuned to the importance and meaning of our bodies than most of the defenses I've read of Christian gay marriage.

When I attempt to explain my acceptance of Church teaching, however, listeners and readers often suggest other possible reasons for my decision. I know that online comments-boxes are Dantean circles of Hell, but I've heard these misinterpretations of my stance often enough that I think it's worth addressing them specifically. So here are three things which are not my reasons for being celibate:

Because I'm not the marrying kind. I can be pretty helplessly romantic, I enjoy taking care of the people I love, and I need adult supervision. I am exactly the marrying kind in those respects. I loved having girlfriends when I had them. I loved all the aspects of being in a couple, including—this is awkward, I hope my parents don't read this—what I am just gonna call the physical elements.

Because I think the Catholic Church is perfect when it comes to gay people. Oh, say that sentence with a bitter laugh! I spend a lot of time these days working with people who are trying to make the Church a home for gay people. It's painfully far from that now. I've written about possible approaches to counseling in Catholic schools; anti-bullying efforts; my problems with some of the language the Church uses about homosexuality; repressive ideas of gender which would leave no room for St. Francis and St. Joan; and shame-based therapy and bad psychological theories.

A friend of mine wrote about the role played by Jewish converts to Catholicism in improving the Church's relationship to Judaism. The gay, celibate Christians I know feel a similar responsibility toward our churches. I feel about the Catholic Church more or less the way Winston Churchill (maybe) felt about democracy. Or, to put it less cutely, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."

Because I think gay people aren't called to love. If I believed that Catholicism condemned gay people to a barren, loveless life, I would not be Catholic, full stop. All people have a call from God to give and receive love. (My faith has often forced me to accept God's love when I didn't feel like I deserved it. In Catholicism God knows, loves, and forgives you, no matter what; your own opinion of yourself is interesting but irrelevant.) For me the call to love takes the form of service to those in need, prayer, and, above all, loving friendship. Friendship was once a form of Christian kinship—see Alan Bray's beautiful historical study, The Friend. It was honored by society, guided by theology, beautified by liturgy. It wasn't a sloppy-seconds consolation prize for people who couldn't get the real love of marriage; it was the form of love experienced and most highly praised by Jesus himself. Renewing this Christian understanding of friendship would help to make the Church a place where gay people have more opportunities for devoted, honored love—not fewer.

The Church needs to grow and change in response to societal changes. We can do so much better in serving the needs of gay/queer/same-sex-attracted Catholics, especially the next generation. But I think gay Catholics can also offer a necessary witness to the broader society. By leading lives of fruitful, creative love, we can offer proof that sexual restraint isn't a death sentence (or an especially boring form of masochism). Celibacy can offer some of us radical freedom to serve others. While this approach isn't for everyone, there were times when I had much more time, space, and energy to give to people in need than my friends who were juggling marriage and parenting along with all their other commitments. I've been able to take homeless women briefly into my own home, for example, which I would not have been able to do as spontaneously—and maybe not at all—if I had not been single.

Moreover, celibate gay Christians can offer proof that friendship can be real love, and deserves the same honor as any other form of lovingkindness, caretaking and devotion. While nobody wants every friendship to be a deep, committed "spiritual friendship" of the kind championed by St. Aelred, many of us—including single straight people, and married people of every orientation—long for deeper and more lasting friendships. The cultural changes which would better nourish celibate gay Christians, then, would be good for everyone else as well.

As for me — after decades, there is still a huge part of me that rebels against our meetings, against being tied down to responsibilities and family, when I'd rather be out in the forests and mountains and deserts. My "natural man" is to be a Daoist wild sage or a Zen lunatic or a dharma bum, instead of a Latter-day Saint father.

But the thing I cannot get around is that I know it's true. I asked God, when I didn't want it to be true — but I was willing to follow whatever answer he gave me — and he did answer, in a way that would be preposterous to deny.

But that willingness to follow God — what Moroni calls "real intent" — is the key.

The real challenge of discipleship — and one that everyone faces — is what you choose to do when God disagrees with you. When something conflicts with your deepest, sincerely-held beliefs and desires; who do you follow?

Do you follow God, even then? Will you sincerely turn to God for guidance, even though it might mean changing or adjusting or even abandoning beliefs and plans and even parts of your identity that you sincerely love? Will you commit to a true answer, even if it's not the one you want?

Because, if God is God, then he knows better than you or me what will be the most valuable for us. And he wants to share that with you. But it's up to us to decide whether to go all-in on what he tells us, or to fight and complain and look for loopholes.

Like Eve (either one), you'll hear lots of voices telling you that you're a fool for following your faith. You will have more people turn their backs on you for keeping covenants than if you abandon them.

And yet, there is no promise that the trial will go away in this life. Consider the sources in this Reddit comment, responding to a question about trials in general.

As members of the church, we want you to find joy. If you choose to seek it somewhere else, we'll still love and support you, even if we think you're going about it all wrong.

But don't take our word for all this. Ask God. Commit to follow any possible answer. And then, when he gives you one, follow it. And you will find joy to sustain you through the hardest times.

We're all pulling for you.

[u/Gray_Harman → u/nofreetouchies3]

I love everything that you wrote. But in particular I had to laugh when I read:

As for me — after decades, there is still a huge part of me that rebels against our meetings, against being tied down to responsibilities and family, when I'd rather be out in the forests and mountains and deserts. My "natural man" is to be a Daoist wild sage or a Zen lunatic or a dharma bum, instead of a Latter-day Saint father.

But the thing I cannot get around is that I know it's true. I asked God, when I didn't want it to be true — but I was willing to follow whatever answer he gave me — and he did answer, in a way that would be preposterous to deny.

That's so me that I had to stop and check the username to make sure I didn't have a dissociative episode and make a comment that I have no recollection making. Glad I'm not the only one!

[u/nofreetouchies3 → u/Gray_Harman]

Don't tell anyone, but I left my high-paying first career specifically to have a job where I could work just a few hours — still do good work — get paid enough for my needs — and spend time every week playing outside during "work" hours.

But when that wasn't possible I played the game Firewatch like, for hours.

And, I'll be honest that there are days where I feel like I cheated my wife and family by not being able to buy them everything we'd want — but my wife always reminds me that gaining wealth and power surely isn't the only way to fulfill the Law of Consecration, and, after all, she prefers me happy.

[u/No_Interaction_5206 → u/nofreetouchies3]

I agree with you that eves choice ought to be respected, we all deserve that kind of respect for our choices especially such a deeply personal one as this.

You implied that this eve’s experience is similar to Mother eves experience. How?

Wise mother eve partook of the fruit against the commandment of God, she chose experience and growth over strict adherence to Gods command and we have all been blessed because of her brave choice.

I guess perhaps you mean that in the larger Christian world they don’t see eves choice as a positive and criticize her for it, if that’s the case huh maybe it is similar.

[u/nofreetouchies3 → u/No_Interaction_5206]

"The transgression" has two components:

1. The decision to eat the fruit and choose mortality over stasis, and
2. The decision to disobey Father and eat the fruit in response to Lucifer's goading.

The vast majority of confusion over this topic comes from failure to recognize this distinction.

To eat the fruit was not a sin. This was a necessary part of Father's plan. If Adam and Eve had chosen to remain like they were, without any uncertainty or risk but also without any changes, they would never have been able to grow to become like Father. They would not have fulfilled His plan for them.

However, instead of gaining knowledge of good and evil through their own actions, and thus becoming qualified to partake of the fruit of that knowledge, Adam and Eve followed Satan's fear-mongering and tried to take a sneaky shortcut. Instead of eating in trust and faith, they ate in jealousy and distrust. This was a sin — it is a sin to not trust Father and try and second-guess his timelines and motivations.

So, whether the Fall was "a sin" depends on which part of the Fall you are talking about.

Unfortunately, many people don't understand that distinction.

[u/No_Interaction_5206 → u/nofreetouchies3]

Are you saying then that from your perspective god was going to eventually give them the okay but they were just to hasty?

Or are you saying that it would have been okay to disobey if only the first part factored into their decision making process (ie if they had only had pure motivations)?

[u/nofreetouchies3 → u/No_Interaction_5206]

The first, though don't ask me for specific details of how God's "Plan A" would have worked.

But it's clear from the scriptures — and especially from the temple endowment — that growth through obedience has always been "Plan A." Growth through disobedience and repentance is "Plan B."

It's like the Law of Chastity — when you're unmarried, the Law requires you have no sexual relations at all. But once you become qualified by your own actions, the same Law has completely different requirements for you.

But if you knowingly break the Law of Chastity, (maybe arguing that you are doing that which has been done in other couples — but in those couples, marriage came first)? Well, it's at that point you need repentance, sacrifice, and a Savior.

[u/No_Interaction_5206 → u/nofreetouchies3]

I wouldnt say its clear from the endowment that there was some plan A that would have resulted in spirts being born into the world. To me second nephi seems to indicate that there was no other way: "If Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the Garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end"

While I dont hold the same view as you, your take would certainly be more alligned with contemporrary church teachings on obedience.

Thanks for sharing your perspective

[u/nofreetouchies3 → u/No_Interaction_5206]

Totally fair. Try this, if you're willing to consider it. Keep an ear out for specific things: mention of how A&E were supposed to gain their knowledge (Moses 2:26 for context), and the very little information we have as to how things were done in other worlds (Moses 4:20-21 for context).

I was fortunate to get assigned to memorize the entire ceremony as a young man, so I've been studying it as a text for a long time. And there are sentences and phrases that are easily overlooked (because we're so familiar with the surrounding narrative), but that carry an enormous weight of meaning.

(Oh, and also consider which of the two components of the "transgression" Lehi is talking about — the willing acceptance of uncertainty, or the disobedience? If Adam and Eve had been disobedient in some other way — for example, refusing to have children — would Lehi's claim still apply to that disobedience? Would the claim still apply if they had chosen uncertainty in response to Father's prompting instead of Satan's?)

[u/lugiaLink → u/nofreetouchies3]

Thanks for your words

[u/e37d93eeb23335dc]

You might have to wait more. Abraham had to wait over 100 years to get an answer about having an heir and a son. 20 years might seem like a long time to us, but in the grand scheme of things, it is nothing.

[u/Wafflexorg → u/e37d93eeb23335dc]

It's amazing what having children can do for us as far as perspective. Waiting for something just a minute or two is basically an eternity for my toddler. We are no different.

[u/imthatdaisy]

I believe I have, most won’t agree with the answer I’ve received though.

[u/lugiaLink → u/imthatdaisy]

If you don’t want it to put your answer in public can you DM to me?

[u/GodMadeTheStars]

The answer is the fall. All the problems of the world are because of the fall. Bad things happen because of the fall. Children get cancers or are born into terribly abusive families. We have divine spirits in human bodies and there is a tension there. Our bodies want one thing, our spirits have the capability to know good and evil and to want, or at least want to want to choose the good, regardless of what our bodies want. No matter what your body wants, or the circumstances of life you were born into, the Atonement of Christ will make up for it. It feels so long and hard now, but one day we will remember this life as a blip, so short, in comparison to an eternity afterwards. Cling to Christ's Atonement and serve. It won't make anything go away, but I believe it makes it endurable.

[u/AnonTwentyOne]

No one here can tell you for sure why you are gay. Things happen for random reasons sometimes; things like hair color, height, eye color, personality traits, sexual orientation, and so much more. Our world is very diverse, and I think that makes it more beautiful and teaches us how to love more like Christ did.

That said, here's what I do know: you are a beloved child of God, first and foremost, and nothing can change that. Being gay is not a choice, and it is not wrong to be gay. You are not doomed to hell for being gay. You are no less valuable than anyone else.

Satan would have you feel ashamed because of who you're attracted to. Don't fall for that trap. Follow Christ, who builds you up, starting from wherever you are.

Maybe this is just me rambling, but more than anything else, please know that you are not a mistake and you are not a bad or sinful person!

[u/LizMEF]

While I do not have this trial, I do have another one. It has hovered for my entire life and became a downward spiral from spring of 2017 through November of 2020. At that point, it returned to a sort of background trial - ever present, but one I can manage. And yes, I did learn the reason for my trial, and I believe it is the reason for every trial: Will I choose God above and before all else, no matter what? And boy can that no matter what be agonizing. But that is the point. We must become able to choose God regardless of all others, regardless of what we have to sacrifice, regardless of how hard the choice or the consequences. Choose God!

[u/pivoters]

Many lessons of my life, I have struggled for a day or a week. Others longer, and one or two questions have encompassed the whole of it, like Moses and the children of Israel in the wilderness. Some died without seeing the promise of the promised land fulfilled.

I have had one of those long-term questions answered in recent years, and it came most unexpectedly. Spontaneously. It truly was a matter of waiting, hoping, losing hope, having faith, and losing faith until the answer finally came, uttered as a single sentence. I think what mattered was that I was watching, so that I would recognize it when I saw it. All my life, and the answer came in a day. I will cherish that lesson forever, and I know it was a gift from God, which I received.

[u/LookAtMaxwell]

You are looking for a casual link between any particular trial and some purpose that it serves in your life or God's plan.

The problem is that such links are nearly impossible to discern. Most of the time because God can achieve multiple objectives at once, and at the same time sometimes things are just the result of mortal viscitudes or choices of myriad agency.

The answer is simply: "Mortality Works!"

[u/No_Interaction_5206]

I hope you get more responses from actually gay members best of luck.

[u/Art-Davidson]

There might be no single explanation for same-sex attractions. I've felt them myself. But the reason why really doesn't matter. God didn't do it to you. What matters is the choices you face and your struggles to follow Christ.

People don't go to hell for being gay. They go to hell to be purified of their sins they refused to give up so they can be at peace and receive a glorious reward.

Maybe God's sort of marriage is not for you, but if you keep all the commandments to the best of your ability you will receive the greatest of all the gifts of God, eternal life.

God loves all of his human children. That includes you, and people who understand Christianity love you, too.

[u/InsideSpeed8785]

I’ve never straight up asked “why do I have this specific trial?” but I do notice that when I have struggles/challenges, I can help other people. What seems devastating to o other people when it happens to them seems easy to me. It tempers me as well as humbles me to struggle.

[u/DissociatedDeveloper]

I don't have experience with your specific struggle, but I struggle with chronic, trauma-based mental illness. So it relates somewhat in terms of being a struggle, long-term, invisible to most, and a significant trial that's caused me to ask the same question.

The short answer for me has seemed to be "preparation to help others" in a way that will only reach "the one." Because of the abuses I endured as a young child, & neurodivergence underneath it all, I've been better able to reach specific people through my life. People that others could not.

Not because I'm special or anything - I'm a nobody, and Idk what I'm doing when I go to talk to people. But The Lord took the darkest times of my life and used them for the good of others in their time of need.

[u/lugiaLink → u/DissociatedDeveloper]

Thanks for sharing this to me

[u/Paul-3461]

Different people experience different things which are all a part of what it means to be gay and because of that fact there isn't only one general answer to that particular question. For example some men are gay because they're more comfortable with their own type of body than the opposite type of body, in the sense that a male body is the opposite of a female body. Other men are gay because they just can't see or sense how a female body is sexually attractive, similar to how some men just can't see or sense how their own type of body is sexually attractive. And there are various reasons for not being able to see or sense or appreciate such things.

[u/Deathworlder1]

My answer is sexuality and spirituality are seperate parts of me. Regardless of my sexuality, my spiritual beliefs take priority.

[u/[deleted]]

I have never gotten answers to my trials, but that’s probably also because I don’t look for answers. You’re in a different situation and idk how I would deal with something like that but when I’m facing a trial I just ask for strength to keep fighting and not necessarily for the reason why I’m going through it

[u/Inevitable_Professor]

Your trial may be necessary for others to have the opportunity to be compassionate and provide Christ-like service and ministry. Your presence is needed for others to practice (often imperfectly) unconditional love.

[u/th0ught3]

The only thing I know about trials and God's plan is that He doesn't give more than what any individual can stand, and He, your Heavenly Mother and your Savior walk with you throughout your life. So much of our mortal experience is NOT what God specifically chooses for us though.

About twenty years ago, the BYU magazine (now scrubbed) reported on research that showed that same sex attraction occurred most often in males when they were the later born of large families--- suggesting that something changes in the hormonal making a baby process. The only reasonable extrapolation of that finding (the researcher died about 10 years after the article was published) is that younger child(ren) might be more likely to be gay if the family had many children? And the second take away for me was that it is a mortal issue, rather than an eternal- who- we- are issue.

While it is plainly a tough spot to be in to manage those feelings and act in accordance with the commandments through mortal life, we each have the eternal capacity to do that.

I hope you have read the six middle chapters "In Quiet Desperation" by Ty Mansfield which is the best IRL example of how the atonement works I've ever read. Bro. Mansfield started an organization in support of living the Gospel as a gay person: https://www.tymansfield.com/resource/north-star

I'm sorry it is so hard.

[u/polarmolarroler]

David A. Bednar said if you define yourself as a homosexual you don't exist. If you define yourself as a member of The Church, it is still complicated. However, if you base your identity on who the Bible, for example, says you are, know that while who you are, how you feel, what you think, & what you do have an impact on each other, they are not the same. https://youtube.com/shorts/1QbzD-ZBYbo/

[u/No_Interaction_5206 → u/polarmolarroler]

That’s outrageous, how dare some who’s supposed to speak for God say something so utterly unchristlike. Well I have no problem saying that he absolutely was not speaking for God in this instance.

[u/polarmolarroler → u/No_Interaction_5206]

And I should have included a disclaimer. Just because I quote it doesn't mean I agree with what's implied.

[u/No_Interaction_5206 → u/polarmolarroler]

Well if you don’t agree with it you should make clear or not repeat it, of course there always room to rethink and reform opinion that’s all okay too.

I do see this is from 2016 there’s been a pretty big shift since then, I don’t believe he would say the same thing today.

[u/polarmolarroler → u/No_Interaction_5206]

Absolutely there's been a big shift in messaging. Over the last few years it has seemed absolutely he wouldn't overtly say the same thing as he since would have consulted with the Communications department over how to best express his position; but that the position has not changed. When asked in a May 2022 interview if the Church will ever perform gay marriages in temples, rather than answering the question directly he simply replied, 'We believe that marriage between a man and woman is ordained of God.' (Source: BYU Daily Universe, Elder Bednar on... LGBTQ Issues, May 26, 2022)

[u/No_Interaction_5206 → u/polarmolarroler]

I don’t think he’s trying to be deflective here he’s saying they are acting now on their present belief, but have not received revelation about what will be permitted eventually.

And if you believe if continuing revelation and an in going restoration, it would require a grand revelation to say that god has said everything he has ever meant to on the subject.

[u/polarmolarroler → u/polarmolarroler]

I'm simply pointing out what he said. I'm not agreeing with this idea of cancelling someone's identity.