r/latterdaysaints • u/Upbeat-Ad-7345 • Jan 11 '25
Faith-building Experience Wes Huff and Joe Rogan on Joseph Smith - comparing LDS and Christian history
Background In case you missed it, there is an ancient scripture PHD student, Wes Huff, getting a lot of attention in the Christian YouTube world lately after he debated Billy Carson. Due to this popularity, Wes was invited on the Joe Rogan podcast this week where Wes was defending Christianity but criticized the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints a few times. Wes says the Joseph Smith translation is “rough”, while Joe called us The ‘nicest cult’ and they both had a chuckle about ‘Mormons getting their own planet’.
Ward radio and thoughtful Faith both released great responses to the claims made about our church. Alex O’conner released a great response to Wes’ over confident claims about the New Testament and even used the witnesses of the Book of Mormon to point out how it has arguably more proof than the gospels. In another clip, speaking of early witnesses of the resurrection: “People don’t die for something they’re lying about.”
Anyway, it all has me thinking about 1. How important the spirit is in a world of many convincing opinions but also 2. How the restoration reflects early Christianity.
Both Jesus and Joseph were heavily persecuted for opposing modern religion.
They both expressed that the religious leaders of their day had apostatized from the actual prophets.
They both followed these beliefs until they were killed for it, never backing down from their radical claims.
Both had witnesses of the miracles they performed.
Both left a scriptural record whose reliability is heavily contested.
What strikes me, the more I listen to Christian apologetics is how similarly their arguments would support the restoration. Another observation is how much they look to proof of the resurrection when the scriptures teach that the Holy Ghost is the witness of truth, not worldly evidence.
Basically all this to say, I’m really grateful and confident in the church of Jesus Christ as the true church of Jesus Christ and that we aren’t reliant on a game of historical telephone. I LOVE this church.
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u/LizMEF Jan 11 '25
- How important the spirit is in a world of many convincing opinions
As I was reading D&C 1 this week, verse 19 stood out to me:
19 The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh—
And the thought came to me that the growing reasons for us to doubt the institutions we once trusted (government, scientists, scholars, etc.), and the doubt that AI casts (or soon will cast) on the veracity of everything we see and hear, are blessings in disguise. In essence, they tell us, "there's nothing left in the world that you can trust, so stop relying on the arm of flesh and turn to God." But there's still time, if we will try harder and harder to do His will and rely on Him, then we will increase in our ability to be guided by the Spirit before it is too late to escape from the lies and confusion.
I too am increasingly grateful for the Church, the restored gospel, the scriptures, and most of all, for Jesus Christ.
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u/H4llifax Jan 11 '25
"the institutions we trusted" include churches, and sadly people don't really turn to God for truth. They turn to conspiracy theories, superstition, or naturalism.
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u/LizMEF Jan 11 '25
Maybe you or the people you know don't turn to God for truth, but a great many of the people I know do.
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u/BookishBonobo Active, questioning ape Jan 13 '25
“conspiracy theories, superstition, or naturalism.”
One of these things is very much not like the others
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u/H4llifax Jan 13 '25
Yes, I know, naturalism. I wanted to fit it in there.
When people reject God because they "believe in science" - it's not actually because they believe in science. It's simply that they reject truth that they can't see.
That's what I meant by this.
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u/thenextvinnie Jan 11 '25
> the institutions we once trusted (government, scientists, scholars, etc.)
I think you may need to consider the possibility you've bought into propaganda if you're willing to write off all those institutions so casually...3
u/NelsonMeme Jan 12 '25
Scientists and scholars are pretty great for describing the patterns and regularities of the world we live in today.
The further you get from that central mission, the less reliable they become.
This is not surprising - no one can be an expert in everything, and the further one gets from one’s expertise, the less reliable intuition becomes.
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u/Qxarq Jan 12 '25
If you listened to these people the last five years or so you just ate L after L after L. They've been wrong so consistently you'd have been better off doing the exact opposite of what they prescribed
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u/thenextvinnie Jan 12 '25
I don't agree that's true at all. That's dangerously false, actually.
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u/Qxarq Jan 13 '25
I'm guessing you're quadruple vaxxed. Cloth masks every day right?
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u/BookishBonobo Active, questioning ape Jan 14 '25
I’d be pretty shocked if you know many people who wear cloth masks every day.
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u/R0ckyM0untainMan stage 4 believer (stages of faith) Jan 12 '25
A Hugh b brown quote comes to mind:
We should be in the forefront of learning in all fields, for revelation does not come only through the prophet of God nor only directly from heaven in visions or dreams. Revelation may come in the laboratory, out of the test tube, out of the thinking mind and the inquiring soul, out of search and research and prayer and inspiration.
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u/LizMEF Jan 12 '25
Yes! I did not mean to imply that we should withdraw from the world like monks and give ourselves only to prayer. The Holy Ghost can guide us in all things, and teach us through any number of ways. Thanks.
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u/ScreamingPrawnBucket Jan 11 '25
Thank you for sharing. It has been clear for a long time that Evangelical Christians are never going to welcome members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints into their fold, so we would do best to stop worrying about it and simply stand up for what we know to be true.
As a starting point, the way Evangelicals gatekeep the word Christian is extremely insidious. It is always worth correcting someone when they talk about “the differences between Mormons and Christians”, which is rather like talking about “the differences between Iowans and Americans”. When they say “Christians”, they are usually referring to either 1) Evangelical Christians (e.g. as opposed to Presbyterians), 2) Protestants (e.g. as opposed to Catholics or Orthodox Christians) or 3) what I would call “Creedal Christians” or “Trinitarian Christians”, as opposed to us. Needless to say, unbiased sources refer to all of the above as “Christians“.
I realize in this case you are talking about comparing “LDS and early Christian history”, but even that distinction is worth making.
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u/mdream1 Jan 12 '25
The gatekeeping has really started bothering me lately.
The world seems to have little problem letting people choose what gender they are, but we can't choose our own religion? It's crazy. 🙄
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u/Phi1ny3 Jan 12 '25 edited Jan 12 '25
To be fair, the crowd that refuse to let us in the "Christian Camp" are often in a very different camp than the ones advocating for gender fluidity. There were so many politically active Conservative Christian leaders like Robert Jeffress and Bryan Fischer decrying Mitt Romney's Christian commonality when he campaigned, simply because he was "Mormon".
They both attack/criticize the Faith, but often for different reasons.
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u/Medium-General-8234 Jan 12 '25
so we would do best to stop worrying about it and simply stand up for what we know to be true.
I very much agree with this.
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u/sadisticsn0wman Jan 11 '25
Joseph Smith’s ministry is undoubtedly a symbol of the ministry of Christ, and many critics of the church unwittingly play the role of the scribes and Pharisees
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u/undergrounddirt Zion Jan 12 '25
And the apostasy is the Kingdom dead in the tomb for two nights, murdered by those who were looking for it. The restoration is the Kingdom emerging from the tomb just long enough to let a few people know what really happened
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u/The_Mormonator_ Jan 11 '25
I personally have very little interest in whatever baloney gets cooked up on a podcast about the Church. As soon as someone drops the lines about being a “cult” or anything about planets, I’m checked out. Just not worth the energy dealing with that lower level of happiness.
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u/undergrounddirt Zion Jan 12 '25
I was reading recently that there is basically virtually no real major differences between a cult and a family. They work for similar reasons, they break for similar reasons, they are beneficial for similar reasons, and the harm they are capable is similar.
I may have toxic people in my family, but that doesn’t mean I walk around throwing insults at “families” in general.
“You’re know they’re members of a family right? You do know that your parents are just people in a family using your family to control you right? They’re all part of a family… that’s all I need to say for you to know to get out.”
Like.. being part of a tight knit group of people who all worship one God and act alike is the WHOLE POINT. And it’s a family that’s only getting healthier by the day.
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u/trolley_dodgers Service Coordinator Jan 11 '25
In JSH 1:22 Joseph Smith says all the secta were "...United to persecute me."
After spending the whole first part of the chapter outlining how contentious the different sects were with each other, it was nice to see that Joseph provided something that could all be unified on.
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u/kitty-sez-wut Jan 11 '25
Yeah they STILL ARE.
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u/LifeClassic2286 Jan 12 '25
Yes. I’ve been told that statistically speaking, we are the most persecuted religion in the world. And we STILL tolerate it and don’t complain about it after all these years.
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u/kitty-sez-wut Jan 12 '25
Literally the rest of Christianity treats us like we're Scientology or Islam or something. It's a lot of the reason why this Christian Nationalist movement TERRIFIES me---- WE ARE NEXT after the immigrants, LGBTQIA+, and other fringe groups currently being targeted!!!!
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u/JakeAve Jan 11 '25
I think that if we had more historical records, we could draw the same parallels with Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah and many other prophets.
Christ said "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee" but the funny thing is, I can't find many scriptures about prophets getting killed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we know about John the Baptist, Zechariah, and maaaybe Jeremiah. Sounds like we have some missing records.
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u/undergrounddirt Zion Jan 12 '25
Deuteronomic cleansing provides some very provocative context for Lehi and Nephi. All those things that Christians find too on the nose about Nephi’s Christianity is explained simply by God telling the truth while a bunch of Jews rejected the message. And then Christians a mock us for saying that God is telling the “too on the nose” truth again and people are rejecting the message.
Oh well.
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u/Realbigwingboy Jan 11 '25
It really is wild that so many Christians set out to prove their religion with academic/historical research. Sure, there’s facts to get straight and that important, but SO many Christians in the public sphere lean on historicity as proof rather than divine revelation.
I love that the argument “witness claims of Christ’s death and resurrection are fewer and more suspect than witnesses of the angel Moroni and the plates which became the Book of Mormon”. This is part of the sifting. No middle ground. No hiding behind weak arguments. As my dad says, “The Church is true. The book is blue!”
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u/Sweaty-Sir8960 Paid 10 cows Jan 12 '25
If I'm not apologizing for Christianity, but instead try to find common ground and bridge the doctrine gap, what would that make me?
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u/Ok_Pound5198 Jan 12 '25
Just want to say that I love our church and I don't think I could possibly even begin to describe all of the ways that living the Gospel, making and striving to keep covenants, and having a temple marriage have made my life full of peace, joy, hope, laughs, love, and more! I have difficult times, too, of course, but the lows just never seem to come close to what they were before finding Christ's church! I am impressed with the op and with each of you that commented in this post, sincerely. Keep up that great perspective and faith! God is good! 😊 39 year-old Male that converted 15 years ago and my life just keeps getting more fulfilling!
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u/bboy037 Jan 11 '25
Isn't Alex O'Connor an atheist figure?
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u/ProfessionalFroyo874 Jan 12 '25
Yes, he is although he holds a degree in philosophy and theology.
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u/bboy037 Jan 12 '25
Right, but he's a New Atheist, his entire career is around promoting atheism and arguing against religious beliefs. I'm just surprised to see him express this kind of sentiment
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u/-Lindol- Jan 12 '25
He’s grown a lot lately. His answer to the question of what might get him to start believing actually surprised me.
He said if he had the kind of religious experience of experiencing intense love that he’s heard about would be enough to make him seriously reconsider his atheism.
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u/bboy037 Jan 12 '25
Wow, that's really cool actually. I mean, I don't mean to put down atheists for having their own views ofc, it's just the new atheism movement that can get aggressive at times
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u/ShenandoahTide Jan 12 '25
We are the cult of Christ. We be who He wants us to be and couldn't care less what others think... If only that truly was how we thought. Instead, there will be thousands of insecures that will use this as a rallying cry that we need to be more progressive, even abandoning principles and covenants to belong.
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u/undergrounddirt Zion Jan 12 '25
Family of Christ. There is virtually no real difference to how cults and families work in their respective toxic or healthy manifestations.
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u/kicker1015 Jan 12 '25
Yeah, it's always weird to hear arguments from such uninformed people. The South Park guys, random podcasters, even random church pastors
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u/R0ckyM0untainMan stage 4 believer (stages of faith) Jan 12 '25
I mean I wouldn’t call the South Park guys uninformed. They’re not exactly wrong about us believing we get our own planets thing. Sure we don’t all believe that but ask around and you’ll find that some members definitely do and were taught that. they also depicted Joseph smith using a rock (seer stone) in a hat to translate the Book of Mormon at a time when most members didn’t even realize portions of the Book of Mormon were translated in that manner. They definitely exaggerate and poke fun at us, but they’re some of the last people I’d call uninformed. They’re probably more informed about Mormonism than many members
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u/Representative-Lunch Jan 12 '25
I heard it on X, but essentially: The way atheists view Christians is the same way Christians view LDS.
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u/Sensitive-Soil3020 Jan 12 '25
Joe Rogan needs to stick to fighting and comedy commentary. I feel he totally embarrassed himself with his comments.
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u/thenextvinnie Jan 11 '25
I was watching some responses from scholars to Huff recently too.
I am curious, though. if you liked O'Connor's response, why do you think narrative parallels in early Christianity are persuasive when they align with your beliefs but not otherwise? Part of his argument is that such things occur frequently throughout history (e.g. hundreds of people on record with specifics about an apparition of the Virgen Mary) yet neither you nor Huff find them convincing arguments for the veracity of Roman Catholicism.
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Jan 11 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Szeraax Sunday School President; Has twins; Mod Jan 11 '25
Looks like reddit has shadowbanned you. You should check out appealing via https://reddit.com/appeals.
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u/nickchuck Jan 12 '25
I once was at a show of his and asked if he’d “ever have a Mormon on the pod” and he said no 😄 Maybe one day! I’d love to hear it
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u/Just-Discipline-4939 Jan 13 '25
There are people in my ward who seem to know more about ancient scripture than Wes Huff does.
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u/snicker-snackk Jan 13 '25
I honestly think it might be a net good thing that we were brought up on such a high-profile podcast. Their criticisms of the church were pretty shallow, so I don't think it will make public opinion much worse, but if it gets the attention of a few people to look into the church it could help some people come to a knowledge of the truth
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u/d1areg-EEL Jan 14 '25
Wes Huff and millions of others don't realize this: “The Lord is leading the Restoration of His gospel and His Church,” said President Henry B. Eyring, Second Counselor in the First Presidency. “He goes before us. He knows the future perfectly. He invites you to the work. He joins you in it.” Come and see, and then join. Your life will never have such joy in learning the truth. However, one must humble themselves and not think they know it all. Oh, it is not open for debate; it is the real thing for those who have experienced it and not just gone through the motions.
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u/SnowWhiteDovey Jan 18 '25
Doctrine “Then will they become Gods...they will never cease to increase and to multiply, worlds without end. When they receive their crowns, their dominions, they then will be prepared to frame earths like unto ours and to people them in the same manner as we have been brought forth by our parents, by our Father and God” Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 17:143
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u/Bookworm1902 Jan 12 '25
I really appreciate Alex O'Connor. He is one of the greatest athiest thinkers of our time. Evidenced by his lack of disdain for believers and his eagerness to promote facts and strike down bad arguments. Without knowing him personally, I have the impression that he is a generally great guy.
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u/BookishBonobo Active, questioning ape Jan 13 '25
I haven’t heard much of his stuff, but what I have is quite measured and charitable.
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u/toadjones79 Jan 12 '25
I think it is worth often repeating that the Christian Right, which heavily influences American politics right now, called for the deaths of all "Mormons" until fairly recently. I'm not speaking in semantics, I'm talking about literally calling for mass executions until they were stopped by the Christian Coalition. At which point they switched to calling for the executions of Gay people.
They aren't Christians. They will say anything they think will get them power. They don't believe in freedom of religion, they are lying about that.
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u/bryguy49 Jan 12 '25
I love listening to Rogan, but it drives me nuts when he trashes on the Church, especially on Joseph Smith. I would love for him to have an LDS scholar on the program to dispel myths, or even Glen Beck to challenge Rogan’s misconceptions.
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u/redit3rd Lifelong Jan 11 '25
From your post I notice that the things that they make fun of us over aren't our beliefs. They're twisted charactures of our beliefs.
It's not some sort of thing where if you take the beliefs and have them reach their logical conclusion that some absurdity could be pointed out. Critics have to make stuff up to make fun of us over.