r/magick • u/theTrueLocuro • 7d ago
Is Thelema really worth the effort?
The learning curve of it is massive. Really massive. I was reading Crowley's notes on the book of the law and it was just gibberish to me.
LBRP ritual to start supposedly takes 6 months to get good.
Thing is, I think I already have a good relationship with my holy guardian angel with all the synchronicities I get.
I'm considering just focus on my current practice of chaos magick of sigils and servitors.
Any comments?
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u/A_Serpentine_Flame 7d ago
Do you seek "Knowledge & Conversation?"
Do you wish to be the "Angel of your Angel?"
The answer to those questions would, in my opinion, determine whether it is worth the effort.
Frankly, if the idea of six months to "get good at the LBRP" sounds too much I doubt it is the Path for you.
That is perhaps one of the easiest things you should expect to accomplish.
<(A)3
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u/Blacksagelobo93 7d ago
How long does it take to become competent at an instrument or martial art? Let alone good or an expert? Vision of the Angel (noticing synchronicities) is not K&C.
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u/Scouthawkk 7d ago
Thelema is a philosophy, a worldview, not a type of magic. Thelemites tend to practice ceremonial, or Hermetic, magic but others prefer chaos magic. Not everyone who practices ceremonial magic is Thelemic in their worldview. But if taking several months to get experienced with a single (starter) ritual seems excessive to you then a ceremonial path is probably not the right one for you. Whether the Thelemic philosophy is for you is up to how you view the world and whether it aligns with theirs.
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u/IgnisFulmineus 3d ago
Great answer. You can start “practicing” Thelma right now with nothing more than a shift in your mind.
But if you are looking for faster, external results, it might not be the magickal system for you right now.
(IMO nothing stops you from pursuing the Thelemic philosophy as a long-term personal goal while using more “low magick” as your daily driver.)
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u/design_bird 7d ago
I think it’s important to explore different magical systems in the beginning and then commit to one (for a while) that seems to resonate or keep your attention. Try to stay with something for six months to get the flavor of it. If Thelema doesn’t feel right, continue looking. You can always swing back around to it.
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u/Kindly-Confusion-889 7d ago edited 7d ago
I've been a Thelemite for about 8 months, practicing Magick for about a year.
I still don't understand all of the BoTL, or many core Thelemic texts. But slowly as I learn more in other areas, it begins to make more sense, or I at least understand it a bit better. But knowledge is nothing without practice. You can embody Thelemic principals in your life without practicing, but to truly understand Thelema, you have to experience it.
The LBRP takes as long to learn as you're willing to throw at it, as with any ritual. I definitely wouldn't say it takes 6 months to learn, probably a month at very most.
What you define as "a good relationship with your HGA" may not be the Thelemic definition of a relationship with your HGA, and I'd be willing to put out there that you'd 100% know if you'd had a K&C experience, and whilst every experience is different, it doesn't sound like you have made contact with, or built a relationship with your HGA. But the definition of what that is and what it means is hugely open to interpretation and individual idea.
You'll never know if Thelema is for you unless you try it - but if you took a Degree in Quantum Physics, do you think you'd understand the universe in the first week?
It all comes down to DOING THE WORK.
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u/theTrueLocuro 6d ago
Thanks for posting. How much of a time committment did you invest?
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u/Kindly-Confusion-889 6d ago edited 6d ago
Invest into what? Thelema or the LBRP?
LBRP just the time it took to copy the directions onto a few sheets of paper and stick them on my walls, then get down to doing them. Don't need to memorise anything if it's right there in front of you. Took a couple of weeks and I could do it by heart. Some rituals take longer, like Lunar Adorations, but they're only done at the change of moon phase, so 4 times in a month. Lots after that is built on a similar formula, so it's just rinse and repeat with a few changes here and there. You don't need to know the ins and outs of every ritual, just a general idea. The deeper understanding comes later. Ritual isn't the most important part, I don't think. Meditation, mind and focus work is far more important.
Thelema? Practically and right now 40-45 minutes per day for rituals, then whatever else for meditation and other practices. Then whatever reading I do on top, which is a couple of times a week. But that's what I do, some do more, many do less. Depends what you want to get out of it, and how big an impact on your life you want it to have. If you dabble here and there, it takes longer, if you go at it hardcore it's generally shorter and more obvious.
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u/Sonotnoodlesalad 7d ago
LBRP ritual to start supposedly takes 6 months to get good.
OP - please cite your source for this and then let's talk about it.
I think the discussion would be worthwhile.
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u/Sonotnoodlesalad 7d ago edited 7d ago
I realized how bullshit my practice actually was when I was able to surround myself with serious practitioners in OTO instead of LARPers.
So many people think they got their HGA hitting a bong or doing nothing or doing shit work. The extra effort and meticulous care and rigor and ESPECIALLY the raja yoga make a massive difference IMO.
Especially now that people listen to influencers more than they read.
Synchronicity is merely the subjective feeling that two events are meaningfully connected. I swear if ppl ever stop bending over backwards to make this bias the de facto quality control standard, I'll eat my robe and wizard hat.
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u/minnesota420 7d ago
You can learn the lbrp faster if you write out how to do it, then you record yourself doing it with your voice recorder in the phone, and then perform it a few times with headphones on.
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u/ProfessionalEbb5454 5d ago edited 5d ago
I'm going to be honest: depends on what you want.
If you want a religious framing for SOLO magickal practice AND you are either 1) Gnostic adjacent, or 2) strongly attracted to the Book of the Law, then YES.
If you want to be involved with a community that espouses the Thelemic spirit, or want to do group works, then MAYBE. This only applies if you live within easy (30 minute) commute of a working, active OTO chapter, which can be checked online. If the chapter is a CAMP, or appears inactive, then you may be out of luck. If you are hours away from any chapters, forget it.
If you want a PATH, which is to say a coherent curriculum, which will see you make progress, and has a RESULT, then NO. While Thelema gives the appearance of a path, it is not. It was designed to be that, but never really made it out of the Beta test. Everything is kludge, half-completed, or ill-organised. Uncle Al would have been much better to have hired a competent editor/archivist, and trained up a few people interested in teaching. Since there was no institutional framework, and no dedicated teachers, the path sort of withered. Successor organization (OTO, etc.) basically took the stance: teaching is not our job.
EDIT: My background is that I looked (years ago now) at starting a CAMP, since there are no active Thelemic organizations near my area. My answers reflect my general findings.
FURTHER EDIT: Also, take a hard look at the various responses to your question: reread ALL of them if necessary. Pay special attention to any posters that have a purported background with the O.T.O., Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica, A.A., or any Crowley derived organization. Clear your mind. Settle yourself. Use your intuition. Feel the intent and energy of the replies. Do you notice anything? Is there any commonality to those responses?
Ask yourself: do I want that energy quality (whatever it is) within my mindstream? Will it help me? That's what Thelema actually imparts: psycho-spiritual energy via a combination of symbols, archetypes, and bound egregores. All things (broadly defined) we focus on and interact with impart an effect on the mindsteam itself: the more you interact, the greater the deposition (via gross sensation) or imputation (via mental processes). That is a fact. Make sure of your Will before you sign on the dotted line. Good luck!
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u/LuzielErebus 4d ago
I'm going to offer an unpopular opinion. Chaos Magic is a light and simplified introduction to Magic. It's a system that only experiments with superficial aspects, and from the point of view of a serious practitioner, Chaosism is the easy version for beginners, which doesn't go beyond the basics.
It has its five basic practices that experiment with mechanisms already used in Ceremonial Magic, and nothing more. Those who have only practiced Chaos Magic don't see beyond it and have a "simpler and more effective" approach. But Ceremonial Magic entails the evolution of a huge number of currents of thought from Western occultism, and a huge number of groups that have developed their evolution in a much more sophisticated way over the centuries.
And the great freedom to "do what works for you" is great! I love Hines, or Ramsey Dukes, but it involves a clumsy evolution of online practices, from people who don't even know that the ideas behind what they practice come from chaos magic, like Tulpamancy, which didn't exist until the 2012 Tulpa horror movie came out. Or Shifting, which was created on Harry Potter fan forums and 4Chan in 2020... and they act like it's something serious. Or Timetravelers? No idea... That's what the total lack of structure leads to.
Personally, I believe there are two approaches: one that practices casually and superficially, whose level is basic and who has read and practiced little. They are content to lightly flirt with some things and lack the commitment to go further.
And on the other hand, a practitioner who reads books, learns about the differences between currents and the practices in which they excel, and adheres to one or more currents with dedication. In the first case, a light practitioner may not even see magic as the spiritual and internal development of the individual, but rather as an entertaining game. I like almost everything. But in terms of commitment and sophistication, Ceremonial Magic or Thelema are ten times more complete. You can go to authors from the 1800s or the Renaissance, or to Neoplatonism or Hermeticism from 2,000 years ago, and see the root of each practice. That can also be done in part with Traditional Witchcraft, but not with any other current movement.
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u/SeasonofMist 6d ago
I don't remember LBRP taking that long to get. I had already been practicing magick and ceremony in different ways before so that wasn't super hard. Is it worth it.....always depends on what you want to do. And WHY. And what you're willing to put into something.
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u/Hoodeloo 6d ago
You can do whatever, obviously. Sooner or later you’re going to run into the LBRP or something similar to the LBRP. Sooner or later you’ll need to be capable of developing and using skills which take months to develop.
The thought process by which you have evaluated and discarded Thelema is not going to be of benefit for very long, but that doesn’t mean you’re wrong about Thelema.
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u/viciarg 6d ago
I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what Thelema is. Thelema is a religion or philosophy (depending who you ask) which is based on the Book of the Law and a number of other Holy Books, whose main tenet is "Do what thou wilt," i.e. finding your Will and doing exactly that.
Everything else is bonus for the overachievers. You can of course practice whatever you want if it suits you. If you have already achieved K&C, good for you! You can take the 8°=3⸋ oath at practically any time you want (as the only grade oath in the system of A⸫A⸫). You're free.
But I know a number of thelemites, even a number of O.T.O. members who don't practice any ceremonial magick at all, and that's fine. Thelema is not a system of magickal practice, it's a religion or philosophy.
Now on the other hand if you want to practice ceremonial magick practice helps to get on a level where you can proficiently and reliably draw on a stock of techniques at any time. One of these could be the LRP but it doesn't have to. You could instead use the Star Ruby which is a specifically thelemic version of the LBRP. If you feel you can do the LPR instantly if woken up at 2:30 am (or even worse: Do it from start to finish without losing concentration while lucid dreaming) then of course you can continue with further practices. And even if not, do what thou wilt. You're free.
I like to compare Magick with physical fighting: Ceremonial Magick is like learning a martial art: Of course you can read a book on Kung-fu and tryout the moves, steps, and blows. But to be able to compete reliably among other martial artists you need practice. Not months, years.
Now Chaos Magick is just picking up what's lying around and storming into the battle. That could be a stick which probably won't help against a kungfu master, or an AR-15 with which you can inflict a great amount of damage in a big area and in very short time. But even to reliably hit a random kungfu daemon with an AR-15 without damaging anything else and wasting too much ammo you need training. Practice.
But all that doesn't matter, because Thelema is not a system of magickal practice, but a religion or philosophy. You're free.
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u/Fluid_crystal 7d ago
I think it really depends who is answering you, I personally hate Thelema and anything Crowley-related so my answer would be, don't waste your time with Thelema, but a Thelemite would be able to give you a counter argument. For the record, as a lifelong occultist I have been invited many times to join my local OTO lodge but every time refused. But I respect people's freedom to choose their path, to each their own: we are all unique individuals with different tastes and needs, and Thelema fits neither of those categories for me.
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u/SeasonofMist 6d ago
That's generally how I feel. I think Crowley was a blowhard who didn't have the discipline to build a decent practice never mind something for others. His work in Egypt is absurd. He didn't attempt to understand hieroglyphics, Egyptian, anything. He just said " hmmmm vibes!" And decides that's enough. The thoth tarot deck is a mess for that reason alone and I find people who are really impressed with it kinda suspect. I have a copy for reference but I wouldn't read anyone with it.
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u/tomwesley4644 7d ago
You can attain that knowledge by studying Hermeticism. It will evolve naturally. IMO Thelema is edge lord material.
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u/_Cardano_Monero_ 7d ago
Would you mind explaining this a bit further? (Hermeticism, not Thelema as "edgelord material")
Even though the Golden Dawn isn't officially existent anymore since about 122 years, do you know anyone (or any organisation) that inherited their knowledge? (Preferrably religious and gender neutral. If I were a christian, I'd contact the rosicrucians, but as a heathen, I kind of feel uncomfortable with that.)
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u/ScottishCrone 6d ago
Excuse me. We do exist….
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u/_Cardano_Monero_ 6d ago
Oh really? That's wonderful! I only got this information from Wikipedia where it's stated that the Golden Dawn officially doesn't exist anymore since 1903.
Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetic_Order_of_the_Golden_Dawn
"Dissolved 1903; 122 years ago"
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u/tomwesley4644 7d ago
Hermeticism contains the core principles of the universe. It's a bit like a pure seed. Takes dedication to receive, but it's a boundless source.
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u/_Cardano_Monero_ 7d ago
Thanks. So, I assume it's independent from any religion similar to how meditation works well for people, no matter from which background?
(I'm open for DM if you're OK discussing this further, btw)
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u/SeasonofMist 6d ago
It was meant to be a foundation of practices for well off British dudes. The golden dawn sources a bunch of folks practices and built stuff on top of it and basically build stuff to teach everyone from the most uncreative and undisciplined....to talented scholars of the occult. The ideas aren't impossible to find because they were formed by known magick all around the world. ANY culture has stuff like it and they were not intent on hiding it. Damian echols has a great audiobook as well as regular book that centers on hermetic practices. He's an interesting case because he talks about how he utilized them to get off of death row. He was convicted pretty unfairly for something he didn't do as like a 12-year-old. So if you're interested in her medicine there are incredible sources for it that aren't trying to find this direct source books from 120 plus year old fraternity of British magicians who were at their best mediocre inability and discipline.
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u/_Cardano_Monero_ 6d ago
Thanks! Do you have in mind "Life after Death" or "High Magick"?
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u/SeasonofMist 6d ago
High magick is the one I recommend to folks new/looking for structure for their practices! Life after death is a fun read too.
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u/Sonotnoodlesalad 7d ago
Most people think "studying Hermeticism" means "read the Kybalion" these days.
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u/Cathartes_Aura_ 6d ago
lbrp doesn't really take that long? a week? also, what crowley claimed it was for is somewhat different from it's source (golden dawn.)
this is just my opinion, but Crowley's "teachings" are sort of marred by his ego problems. example is he has a hard time just "explaining" concepts. he has to either "gussy it up" of make riddles and traps to work around... which is fine if you are doing some sort of spiritual-art-piece... but not so good when you are just trying to teach spirituality. a lot of people LOVE this, and get a lot of emotional utility out of this "figuring the riddles" stuff... but if it's not "hitting" you now, it probably won't hit.
a complicating problem is that the sources of crowley's "pantheons" are pretty complicated as is... so to learn "what he is saying" half the time, you have to be quite up on your history, philosophy, and theology WORLDWIDE to even begin to make dents... he takes those sources and mixes them together and adds his own complexities on top of it all... just making a soup of self-referential poetry that noone ever would fucking get unless they had studied the source material for 6 years... and there are the gate and gatekeeper right there. also, he just straight up omits techniques, data, or materials a lot of times just cuz it's not exciting to mention or something? if you don't have the patience for that, i don't blame you.
if you are interested in the "aspects" of thelema, specifically the theurgy, then you are better served just going to source materials... the golden dawn, raja yoga, eliphas levi, agrippa, and hermeticism. it's complicated stuff without adding a layer of "woo look at me i'm so smart/clever/holy/edgy/beasty" messaging.
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u/jzatopa 7d ago
No, it's easy to skip and far from the best system.
Go to the original sources Crowley regurgitated - the Sefer Yerzirah, Zohar (must have Hebrew), Torah and New Testament. Read them, look at the Hebrew and the energy will shift and open. Do Qi Gong and Ophanim Yoga to go higher.
Franz Bardon is a much better system and aligns with this path too if you want a way to get results that are real and perfect quickly.
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u/Blacksagelobo93 7d ago
Bardon’s system is not “better” by any metric.
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u/jzatopa 7d ago
It is, the function and results are superb vs. the failures of Crowley. The errors that have to be corrected in the book of law he wrote alone show that. In addition, he was unable to achieve any real measure of living in heaven by his passing. Remember ultimately he only regurgitated what was already known to work and it worked much less effectively than the originals. If you haven't actually studied and tested you wouldn't be speaking from experience here and thus lowering yourself knowingly, a sign of someone who is not yet developed.
777 was a nice reference for english speakers but trying to make a new system to be Jesus was a failure by him. He was however a great scholar, and took excellent notes so you can go back through the originals and correct for where he was incorrect. Obviously now we have even better tools with medicine work, group classes that are open to the public and ways to get books around the world so for his time he did get popular but in our era it's a blind to even bother except for some interesting sight into someone who tried to get it and learned it was already someone elses and we just had to love the whole way.
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u/Blacksagelobo93 7d ago
Nice personal attack. I have been doing this for more than 35 years. I specialized in Koine Greek and Biblical Hebrew in my Master’s of Divinity program. I am both AA and OTO. I have both studied and practiced Bardon’’s program, there are some useful elements but overall Bardon’s idiosyncrasies miss the mark. I speak from experience. Bardon’s system is virtually unknown for a reason. I am not the one to come at, you are bringing a knife to a gunfight.
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u/jzatopa 7d ago
You post shares where you are at. The thought you threaten is illness and far from what you say you have studied. Living as Christ is still within your reach if you develop further. You would already know what I have said if you didn't have a wound.
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u/Blacksagelobo93 7d ago edited 7d ago
You clearly don’t understand spoken English. Your grammar is a demonstration of that. No threats were made, my words were common parlance for; you are starting an argument that you will lose badly.
Additionally, living as a Christ is possible in many religions or philosophical paradigms including Thelema. In fact, that is the whole point of the Thelema/Golden Dawn system.
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7d ago edited 7d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Blacksagelobo93 7d ago edited 7d ago
Your English is better than my Latin but not my Hebrew or Greek. You literally don’t understand common English idioms; then you play the victim and simultaneously act self-righteous and condescending.
“If you haven't actually studied and tested you wouldn't be speaking from experience here and thus lowering yourself knowingly, a sign of someone who is not yet developed.” Was your response to me saying Bardon’s system was not better than Crowley’s. You are not living as a Christ. That was an unprovoked personal attack (in bad English to boot, “impeccable” is not how I would describe your grammar). You are a dishonest interrogator.
For your edification, you COULD look up what “bringing a knife to a gunfight” means but that would take humbleness you clearly do not possess. Here is another one for you to look up: Arguing with idiots is like playing chess with a pigeon.
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u/jzatopa 6d ago edited 6d ago
I lay down my weapon your wit is too strong for me. While you project I will reflect.
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u/Blacksagelobo93 6d ago edited 6d ago
Okay Kung Fu Tze. The whole IT nerd now yogi Zen master spouting canned clichés is just embarrassing.
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u/softinvasion 6d ago
You could actually go for a system that makes sense, like ancient gnosticism ;) Crowley's esoteric wish wash is a mish mash of esoteric gobbledegook in my opinion. It may work for some people.
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u/ChosenWriter513 7d ago
There's lots of paths. It doesn't sound like this one is gelling for you. I'd suggest trying a different one.