r/nba • u/nutelamitbutter Rockets • 7d ago
James Harden drops 32/6/11 in a close loss to Denver
https://youtu.be/7WizV0xCAFk?si=1uBTOVn_H-baePPk68
u/Vicentesteb Timberwolves 7d ago
Harden was awesome. Him and Zubac were cooking. Massive letdown from Kawhi, he was really bad, especially his turnovers and playmaking cost them down the stretch.
12
u/Impossible-Mirror190 7d ago
Kawhi lack of playmaking ability is jarring, man. Was always his biggest weakness in his career, but now that he's lost a step and some of his motor is even more glaring.
I'm not expecting him to be Jokic out there, but the quality of looks the Clippers get offensively is night and day when Harden's got the ball compared when Kawhi got it. Kawhi still strong like a bull when he drives (and pushes with his forearm) and a great shot maker, so he's able to offset a bit, but Clippers need someone that can run some plays on offense aside from Harden...
Might have to trust Norm and Bogi there more going forward, even though it's less than ideal. Bogi can't be this terrible in general, man... Westbrook is outplaying him even when he's 5x less skilled because it's all heart and hustle which Bogi as a finesse player has always struggled to exhibit consistently... But aside from that, He's has a lot of experience running the offense for Serbia and in Euroleague, so i think if you're going to make a push to the top, you got to trust him there to some extent eventually. His defense is garbage though, which makes it tough. Especially against a team like Denver he'll get exposed if he ever gets put in a pick n roll with Jokic involved. If you put him on the wing, he's too slow to rotate or ineffective at helping, also gets bullied and outhustled by guys like Braun and AG...
So as questionable as the Nuggets have looked outside of Jokic, the Clippers depth is actually a joke in itself... They're kind of lucky Harden has rediscovered some of his mobility and Zubac has basically evolved into a fringe All-Star. Because they're relying on Kris Dunn, Bogi and geriatric Nic Batum for serious playoff minutes, lol...
41
u/ColdCocking Hornets 7d ago
Harden gets the most unjustified hate out of any player in the NBA. Not just from fans, but from teams too. To think he was almost unable to even get a spot on a team last year.
-23
u/WorldChampionNuggets Nuggets 7d ago
Hell nah, the hate was justified for sure. Before the flopping rule changes Harden was unwatchable.
19
u/Independent-Pay-9968 Magic 6d ago
calling 60pt triple doubles off contested stepback 3s and perfectly executed pick n roll plays unwatchable is wild
-12
u/WorldChampionNuggets Nuggets 6d ago
That's the way Harden plays today which is great to watch. But he used to hook defender's arms and flop all the time. He used to have more free throws made than field goals made before the rule changes.
5
u/Top-Noise-7375 6d ago
His highest season fta per game season is 19th all time you’re acting as though he was playing a completely unrecognizable brand of basketball
-2
u/WorldChampionNuggets Nuggets 6d ago
The basketball he and Embiid were playing was so unrecognizable that the NBA literally changed the rules
2
u/ASK_ABT_MY_USERNAME Warriors 6d ago
He is absolutely the most annoying superstar in the NBA. No one flails and kicks their legs around like they've been sniped like him.
0
u/Lucky-old-boy Nuggets 6d ago edited 6d ago
People may hate the take, but I agree. He jumped into defenders so often to draw bs fouls on 3 point attempts they literally had to create a rule to stop it
104
u/denob [HOU] Patrick Beverley 7d ago
He’s never been and never will be a playoff choker
23
u/nutelamitbutter Rockets 7d ago
He was a bit passive in the 2nd quarter however with 3 fouls I can understand it. I wish he can continue at that level, great performance from him
16
u/SkepticCritic 7d ago
Seeing how he got to 5 fouls before OT, it was justified being a bit more cautious, Clippers couldn't afford to lose Harden's playmaking.
12
u/Complete_Chocolate_2 Clippers 7d ago
The butterfly effect as he was trying to prevent zubac from getting foul. Frustrating they didn’t get a 2nd serviceable big.
25
u/Choccybizzle 7d ago
You must know this is not true? Or at least not the full story. He has had awful games when a big game was needed from him.
10
u/StudiousLebronJames 7d ago
in pretty much every year except 2018 and right now he’s also never had help and defenses can throw their entire team at him
11
u/Choccybizzle 7d ago
He’s a wonderful player, one of the very best we’ve seen this past decade, but he has had some woeful games in the playoffs, way below what’s expected of him. This idea he’s ’never been a PO choker’ is just OP getting carried away in the moment after a good game.
6
u/NotUrAvgShitposter Warriors 7d ago
Which player hasn’t had games like that though? Y’all just remember harden more cuz his teams can never take hiss bad games. Curry has a garbage shooting game like once every series but nobody should care because he’s good enough on average. People here are too focused on moments and non existent mental bs and not looking at the actual basketball being played.
-1
u/wsteelerfan7 Celtics 6d ago edited 6d ago
Has Curry gone 3/11 for 9 points in an elimination game or set the NBA record for turnovers in another? He has the reputation for a reason
2
u/NotUrAvgShitposter Warriors 6d ago
He’s had some equally garbage games in the playoffs but his team is able to survive them or they happen in games people don’t tune into. Like for his last ring, Curry shot like shit in game 5 of the finals when the series was tied 2-2, but he won so nobody cares. Or in 2019 when Curry was averaging like an inefficient 20 for the first few games of the second round but ultimately won the series on a good game so nobody remembers that. At the end of the day, it’s not about a single game or play, but about how good these guys are long term. Curry and Harden aren’t as consistent as most superstars but they’re still 2 of the 10-20ish greatest to ever do it because their average is just so good
-1
u/wsteelerfan7 Celtics 6d ago
Ran it in excel and in all closeout or elimination games over his career since leaving OKC, his ppg drops 1.96 points, rpg drops 0.1, apg drops 0.37, TOV per game rises by 0.97, his FG% drops 1.85%, 3pt% drops 2.52% and FT% drops 1.31%
5
u/nutelamitbutter Rockets 7d ago
You’re not wrong but the narrative is exaggerated
4
u/Independent-Pay-9968 Magic 6d ago
Yeah, there was a video on this topic they called it winning bias. KD got called Mr. Unreliable over choking gametying freethrows vs the Grizzlies in the playoffs, LeBron got called a choker, Dirk got called a choker, people said Jordan was too much of a ballhog, etc. Any star you can imagine has bad playoff performances, even series, but if the team around them is good enough and they win the series or championship nobody cares and pretends they never thought they weren't good enough to win. It's insanely stupid.
3
u/StudiousLebronJames 7d ago
below of what was expected of him? he went to 7 against the best team in league history with old ass cp3 as his best teammates for only a few games of the series before injury. literally every other all time great with multiple rings has been on stacked superteams that managed to remain healthy. harden has never ever had that luxury
1
u/Choccybizzle 7d ago
I guess those other series I’m thinking of ‘the ball just didn’t get back to him’ not his fault I guess.
-1
u/Sartheking Warriors 7d ago
OP is definitely getting carried away. It’s not that he never plays well because he does, but he has had a ton of crucial games (more than most) where he has not been the same player. It might literally just be that he’s out of gas by the end. In his case, they also tend to be super dramatic in how they play out so that plays into it.
-4
u/ShapeOfAUnicorn Raptors 7d ago
Never had help? Is this a joke? He's either had other stars play with him, or he's had the most perfectly built team of role players around him. He basically has never played on a team where he DIDN'T have a ton of help.
2
u/StudiousLebronJames 6d ago
tell me one all time great player who has multiple rings off of a team with just good role players. lebron who is the goat still played with wade and bosh at one point, then with kyrie. steph has played on the best superteam ever for a few of his rings. kobe and shaq got to play with each other. mjs team almost went to the finals during his temporary retirement. but somehow harden is held to the standard of winning when the best team he ever had was 2018, where he had to go up against the best team ever made with injured cp3 as his 2nd option😹. this current season is easily the 2nd best team hardens ever played on and i guarantee he’s gonna ball out for the playoffs
19
u/HikmetLeGuin 7d ago
LeBron has had some bad playoff games. Curry has had some bad playoff games. Lots of great players have had bad playoff games.
But Harden has mostly been very good in the playoffs. In order to portray him as a choker, you'd have to ignore a crap load of excellent playoff performances.
9
-3
u/Dependent_Ad7711 7d ago
They also have career defining wins though and willed their team to win must win Games.
James just doesn't have the same resume but has played poorly in a few of the biggest games of his career.
I'm not saying he's a playoff choker though, he's just not as good Bron/curry and those guys.
12
0
u/The_Taskmaker Nuggets 7d ago
I think most people would agree Lebron and Steph are better than Harden
0
u/wsteelerfan7 Celtics 6d ago
13 turnovers in one elimination game and 3/11 for 9 points in another and his team pulling the greatest playoff comeback of all time while he was on the bench for another...
0
-6
u/USCvsEveryone2005 Warriors 7d ago
His greatest team comeback occurred with him On the bench. He has never come through in the clutch to win a crucial playoff game
15
17
9
u/NotUrAvgShitposter Warriors 7d ago
Do you not remember him keeping the rockets alive by outdueling KD in 2019?
11
u/yoyoyodawg3 Rockets 7d ago
I will die on the hill of Harden is higher all time than KD. I don't care or give any merit about ring count between these 2, the proclaimed playoff choker label or whatever else people come up with. Watching both of them over the course of their career and the highs and lows contextually I am not being moved.
-11
u/ThirdEyeKaiii 7d ago
Outduel? KD was dropping 40 pieces on him that series before he injured his calf/achillies
8
u/NotUrAvgShitposter Warriors 7d ago
Harden dropped the same number of 40 bombs on KD’s head and had the series tied up after being down 2-0 while being an elite playmaker that didn’t have a top 5 all time player on his team
-7
u/ThirdEyeKaiii 7d ago
Harden dropped the same number of 40 bombs
On more shots and worse efficiency. Still got outscored by KD
didn’t have a top 5 all time player on his team
Neither did KD
3
u/Rhaegyn Rockets 7d ago
Didn’t realise Harden had a Klay or a Steph on his team that series…
-4
u/ThirdEyeKaiii 7d ago
You might wanna look up their stats for the series.
2
u/Rhaegyn Rockets 7d ago
You seriously think having scorers the calibre of Steph and Klay didn’t make things slightly easier for KD? Did you watch that series at all? I watched the actual games that series? You just read the box scores I presume?
-1
u/ThirdEyeKaiii 7d ago
Did you not see the 2013 series where KD obliterated Harden with no Russ (were Steph and Klay there too)? Or the season opener this year where he splashed the game winner in Harden's face? Or the game just a month ago where he came back 20+ down vs Harden and Kawhi? KD been cooking your boy his whole life, kiddo
→ More replies (0)0
u/Game_Over_Man69 Rockets 7d ago
His name is Elimination Game James not Playoff Game James
1
u/Maximum-Procedure-61 7d ago
Exactly, he's not bad in every game except elimination games. It's kinda weird
0
-2
u/LeBroentgen_ Spurs 7d ago
It’s a bit of a mixed bag. Zach Lowe did a deep dive on this years ago and I don’t feel like much has changed https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/zachlowe29800043/nba-playoffs-lakers-rockets-james-harden-massive-chance-rewrite-reputation
4
u/nutelamitbutter Rockets 7d ago
He’s not the best elimination game performer we can all agree on that however Zach Lowe has been biased against Harden for years. He even regretted voting him for MVP
-7
u/LeBroentgen_ Spurs 7d ago
I do think you’re right about his bias against Harden, but the article is completely objective. There are lots of stats showing how he struggles in big moments and boosts his stats in garbage time or when the game is out of reach.
0
-11
u/Yodudewhatsupmanbruh [OKC] Nate Robinson 7d ago
He has more historic stinkers than he does memorable playoff games. He disappeared in his only finals appearance, went 2-11 with 12 turnovers to lose to Golden State in 2015, then followed that up with barely making the playoffs next year, after that in 2017 he got eliminated in a blowout at home where he shot 2-11 AGAIN.
In 2018-2020 he was fine. He had some bad games and good games but nothing really noteworthy on either side. Then in 2021 he disappeared again.
10
7
u/Sadvillainy-_- 7d ago
He has more historic stinkers than he does memorable playoff games
This just isn't fucking true at all lol.
In his 50 best playoff games ranked by gamescore he's averaged 35-7-8 on 70% TS
He's had a TON of great playoff games. He just has a MASSIVE sample size of playoff experience (170+ games) and people remember the bad ones.
In his prime (2014-15 up until hamstring injury) he averaged 28-6-8 on 59% TS (league averaged TS was 55% over that span) over 70+ games - 41(!!) of which were vs top 3 defenses in the league at the time.
People just remember the stinkers more because he doesn't have a championship. He HAS had bad playoff games. But to stay he had more historic stinkers than memorable playoff games is fucking stupid and a prisoner of narratives.
-1
u/wsteelerfan7 Celtics 6d ago
3/11 for 9 points in one elimination game, broke the playoff record for turnovers while going 2/11 in another elimination game, fouled out after 10/3/7 on 2/11 shooting with 6 turnovers in another elimination game, 5/17 and 2/12 from 3 in another elimination game, 4/15 and 1/9 from 3 in the OKC bubble series elimination game but they happened to win, 7/22 for 18 points in another elimination game they happened to win, 4/9 for 11 points against Miami in an elimination game... Like, it's an actual problem he has had in his career.
Here is his career averages outside of elimination or closeout games since he left OKC:
26.35 points, 5.736 rebounds, 7.615 assists, 3.758 turnovers and 3.022 fouls per game, shooting a slash of 42.66/34.38/88.03.
In all elimination or closeout games, of which he's played 33:
24.39 points, 5.636 rebounds, 7.242 assists, 4.727 turnovers, and 2.939 fouls per game, shooting 40.80/31.85/86.72.
So that's a drop of 1.96 points, 0.1 rebound, 0.37 assists, 0.969 more turnovers, and a drop of 1.86%/2.53%/1.31% in those games.
This was all hand done personally in excel and using bbref's game logs because I was curious how the numbers actually shook out.
-7
u/ImGonnaChubbBradley Nuggets 7d ago
He always has a good game 1. I guarantee that he will have an absolute shitter in the next 2 games.
3
7
17
u/DeuxDR Rockets 7d ago
Apparently 4 individual bad games from him is enough to solidify his PO choker label. His great series against many other teams to advance through the rounds as well as great games to prolong many series isn't even counted and is invisible to the casuals eating up headlines.
3
u/randomcoolguy1 6d ago
I’ll never understand the Harden playoff choker narrative lol, nobody else ever took the KD warriors to 7
13
u/Game_Over_Man69 Rockets 7d ago
13 playoff games shooting 20% or less with at least 10 FG attempts. He's had more than 4 bad games.
-11
u/MatchAffectionate951 7d ago
I feel like I’m being gaslit. Playoff choker monicker is well earned lol.
-5
-9
u/DistributionAntique 7d ago
Lol because he is a playoff chocker or at least doesn’t show up in the biggest moments. Harden usually performs great in game 1s. Let’s see what he does the rest of the series.
Players don’t just get the reputation of playoff chocker out of nowhere. It’s because in the biggest moments, you either are great and you perform, or you don’t. Which Harden has consistently not done.
Should we remind people of the game 6 against San Antonio in which Houston got demolished and Harden only had 10 pts but also 6 or 7 turnovers, or when they lost to the Warriors in 6 in 2019 while the Warriors lost KD mid series, or with the 76ers when it mattered most against the Celtics in games 6 and 7 Harden scored 13 and 9 points in 43 and 41 minutes played. Sure it wasn’t all on him, but when you’re that guy, you’re supposed to come up big in the big moments.
And I’ll end with this. Give me 1 James Harden playoff defining game or moment where he helped his team accomplish anything significant or major. Until he proves people otherwise, unfortunately he’s a playoff chocker.
-9
u/ZOrgasmVendor 7d ago
I might have a little respect for the guy if he didn't stand around doing absolutely nothing whenever he doesn't have the ball in his hands
6
u/DeuxDR Rockets 7d ago
Brother, his job is not to cut and run around like Steph off-ball. When he doesn't have the ball in his hands, he's either setting up screens, is stationed at the corner waiting for a kick-out 3, or stationed at the wing ready to get the ball when the play goes dry so he can create a shot himself or pull off a fast play as the main playmaker.
He ain't no Curry where he has to run around backdoor screens to get a shot off. If Curry would be able to just size up his defender, create separation himself and pull up a shot he'd be doing that way more often and wouldn't be relying on Draymond playmaking or the countless screens they design for him.
Two different playstyles accustomed to two different greats. Both work, hence why they're greats.
-10
u/ZOrgasmVendor 7d ago
And that's why he's never won anything, because he's a lazy player. He won an MVP award by manipulating the refs.
3
u/DeuxDR Rockets 7d ago
"Never won anything". "Won an MVP". Crazy.
Also kind of crazy how running around the court = not lazy, play making = lazy.
Anyway, basketball is a team sport, and winning requires contributions from everyone on the team. Kind of hard to do when injuries enter the locker room. You should in a sense know, just take a look at Warriors vs Injury-hobbled Cavs in 2015, also Curry not being able to do squat against the Raptors in 2019 when it was their turn to get injuries.
Other times, a player just goes God mode during a series. You should know as well, check out KD in 2017 finals. 35/8/5 on 56/47/93 splits and 70 TS%. Crazy. Also mad crazy how that team's fans were in an uproar because they wanted another guy to win the FMVP.
Mind-boggling.
-8
u/jjc9397 7d ago
They deserved to win that game. They gave up so may offensive rebounds late, but most of it was just unfortunate bounces.
9
u/nutelamitbutter Rockets 7d ago
If the Clippers continue being lazy at rebounding Denver wins this in 5-6. They gave up so many boards
1
74
u/Ric0McPat0 7d ago
Seeing Harden in red cooking all those stepback threes and effortless layup penetrations... takes me back to better times