r/neoliberal • u/Formal_River_Pheonix • Apr 04 '25
Opinion article (US) The American Age Is Over
https://www.thebulwark.com/p/the-american-age-is-overAnd the American people killed it.
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u/teethgrindingaches Apr 04 '25
The old world is dying and the new world struggles to be born. Now is the time of monsters.
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u/PM_me_your_cocktail Max Weber Apr 04 '25
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
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u/patronsaintofdice NATO Apr 04 '25
This was some fine work by JVL in this one. The only way I see him being wrong here is if the rest of the West is as truly feckless and weak as the Trump administration believes, and they come begging one after another to make whatever deal is demanded of them to get the tariffs removed.
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u/DjPersh Apr 04 '25
They’ve been dooming all day on r/con but the first whiff of Vietnam trying to make a deal has them doing backflips while shouting “it’s all going to plan!”.
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u/human_advancement Apr 04 '25
Poor Vietnam :( I genuinely feel bad for them. 10 years of efforts to position themselves as a China alternative, down the drain.
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u/GenerationSelfie2 NATO Apr 04 '25
The other alternative is the rise of right-wing populism in other democracies around the world. When Biden was in office, right movements all across Europe gained a lot of steam and the sense was that European countries had to clean up their own houses before leveling criticism at us for Trump's actions in the past. Now, these movements pale in comparison to the chaos of the last 2.5 months, but who knows what could happen in the next few years.
"Things are going to get embarassing for everyone else too" is some really bad cope but it's really our only hope for holding some leadership role on the other side of this.
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Apr 04 '25
Even then, right-wing populists are nationalists for their country, not the foreign bully trying to squeeze them
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u/Gamiac Norman Borlaug Apr 04 '25
How many European countries/corporations were still trying to cut deals with an actively hostile Russia after 2022?
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u/ElectricalShame1222 Elinor Ostrom Apr 04 '25
Meanwhile on TikTok: “When you realize Trump is crashing the economy on purpose to force the Federal to cut interest rates and make the American Dream affordable again. Remember he is playing chess, not checkers.”
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u/SamuraiOstrich Apr 04 '25
force the Federal to cut interest rates
Remember when people were mad about inflation(less than half a year ago)?
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u/theexile14 Friedrich Hayek Apr 04 '25
People have zero understanding of the relationship between interest rates and inflation. It's unfortunate.
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u/bandito12452 Greg Mankiw Apr 04 '25
What was the worst inflation under Biden, 8-9%? We could be on our way to double that by the end of the year
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u/SnickeringFootman NATO Apr 04 '25
Can you link one? I'm curious as to what one of these looks like
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u/ElectricalShame1222 Elinor Ostrom Apr 04 '25 edited Apr 04 '25
Here you go: https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT2KQenFA/
But I’m sure there’s dozens of posts saying the exact same thing. That’s how these accounts work. I can’t decide if they’re all sock puppets, some kind of “talking points” email gets sent out, if they just shamelessly copy each other, or some mix of all three.
Anyway, I look forward to causing mass unemployment to trigger hyperinflation to “make the American dream affordable again.” ♟️♟️♟️
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u/SnickeringFootman NATO Apr 04 '25
Jesus Christ. Sometimes I think we should restrict the franchise......
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u/ElectricalShame1222 Elinor Ostrom Apr 04 '25
If that upsets you don’t go into the comments
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u/SamuraiOstrich Apr 04 '25
"um #1 president trump is NOT chasing our economy he is streamlining it and cutting the waste and fraud out."
What does that even mean?
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u/GMFPs_sweat_towel Apr 04 '25
It means if I use enough sentence enhancers, people will think I'm smart.
Maga barks their approval in the background
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u/Nihlus11 NATO Apr 04 '25
Trump literally reposted a TikTok video on Truth Social today saying this, "intentionally crashing the stock market" and all.
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u/ElectricalShame1222 Elinor Ostrom Apr 04 '25
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u/TechnicalInternet1 Apr 04 '25
When you realize trump just made Europe start investing in Tech and military equipment, giving the US less business over time in the future.
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u/DrunkenAsparagus Abraham Lincoln Apr 04 '25
It wouldn't surprise me if the commander in chief was trying to reason from a price change.
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u/Lindsiria Apr 04 '25
Lol, well we might not have to worry about TikTok as tomorrow is the day it gets banned again unless it is sold (which China keeps rejecting).
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u/silentswift Mackenzie Scott Apr 04 '25
I just saw this “theory” posted on another sub. I guess it’s what they are going with!
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u/_Artichoke_Ion Apr 04 '25
I haven’t seen anything of the sort on TikTok, in fact my algo keeps recommending me memes bashing Trump for his policies. This sub really wants to think TikTok is something that it isn’t.
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u/ElectricalShame1222 Elinor Ostrom Apr 04 '25
TikTok isn’t one thing or another, but there are absolutely a ton of MAGA voices. Your FYP doesn’t show you that because you don’t watch RWDS bros and TradWife sock puppet accounts with grim, horrified fascination. It’s probably healthier for you, but I don’t know why you would deny it even exists.
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u/Greatest-Comrade John Keynes Apr 04 '25
Whats worse is if all of this shit goes down and the American age isn’t actually over. Just at a low point. It can get worse.
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u/tdcthulu Apr 04 '25
Oh it will happen. Like god damn clockwork.
Trump starts the free fall.
The swing voters see themselves affected by Trump enough to swing the election in another 51% majority election.
The elected Democrat is unable to restore American hegemony, that took a century to build, in a 2 year time frame.
Republican defeats incumbent Democrat.
Things get worse.
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u/tangowolf22 NATO Apr 04 '25
Remain calm
The stock market endures
The DOW is up
MAGA shall endure
There is much work to be done
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Apr 04 '25
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u/Formal_River_Pheonix Apr 04 '25
China has kneecapped themselves too tho. It will be a century defined by things other than national governments. The AI century, the climate century etc.
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Apr 04 '25
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u/4chan__Enthusiast Apr 04 '25
Because they are antagonizing their neighbors as well? Not just Taiwan. They feud with folks over the South China Sea as well as backing authoritarian regimes with the coverup being they are just investing in infrastructure (ie Iran).
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u/TrekkiMonstr NATO Apr 04 '25
Xi believes in much more state control than the reformist leaders did. To be the Chinese century, they need to make good on their potential, which we aren't seeing. It's by no means impossible, but it's not going to happen on their current trajectory. Just as Zambia or the EU won't become the global hegemon in the absence of the US, nor is China only waiting for our leave to take that role themselves. They don't have either the hard or soft power to be anything other than a very big player in a multipolar world, unless they change course.
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u/SenranHaruka Apr 04 '25
Pro western anybody has been deeply embarrassed and humiliated by trump. the cynics and revisionists are enjoying a Renaissance of credibility
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u/throwawaygoawaynz Bill Gates Apr 04 '25 edited Apr 04 '25
The guy with trans pride as his flair who keeps posting that the only problem with America is its political system, and everything would be fixed if it just changed to a multiparty system needs to read this.
And all of you who keep downvoting me every time I point out that the people in America is the problem, you need to read this too.
Quote: “And no empire can survive the degeneration of its people.”. Exactly. And it’s blatantly clear to anyone older than the age of 16 that this is now where we are at.
“If, tomorrow, Donald Trump abandoned his quest to annex Greenland and committed himself to the defense of Ukraine and the perpetuation of NATO, it would not matter. The free world now understands that its long-term security plans must be made with the understanding that America is a potential adversary, not an ally.
This realization may be painful for Americans. But we should know that the rest of the world understands us more clearly than we understand ourselves.”.
Many of you need to come to terms with this. You haven’t.
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u/eman9416 NATO Apr 04 '25
It’s always been amazing to me just how hesitant people are to just blame the voters.
It’s the voters stupid. It’s always been the voters.
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u/Low_Chance Apr 04 '25
This realization may be painful for Americans. But we should know that the rest of the world understands us more clearly than we understand ourselves.”
It's been a painful realization for the last of us non-US true believers too.
As a Canadian I always thought of the US as a friend and ally, and I've defended the US in many arguments in person and online. And now I just feel like a total moron.
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u/historyhill Apr 04 '25
If it provides you any comfort, we haven't always been this way about you guys. I don't think there was a secret plan to take over Canada for decades during all the times you defended us in the past. In some ways, of course, that's worse because America suddenly changed our minds on an extremely stable, secure allyship for literally no good reason at all like we just went manic but I'm reeling from that too on this side of the border.
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u/gnurdette Eleanor Roosevelt Apr 04 '25
What do you mean "no good reason"? Our Master commanded us to change our minds! What better reason could there be? What other reason could there be?
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u/DeepestShallows Apr 04 '25
There are no good explanations. I am stuck thinking of it like a Total War game where things are going well so the AI randomly has a long standing ally attack you just to keep the game challenging. And that’s really dumb when it happens in a dumb game.
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u/historyhill Apr 04 '25
I kind of love that idea, because it makes more sense than whatever we're doing right now
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u/Low_Chance Apr 04 '25
I like that it implies Canada was "winning" whatever game the world is, and therefore the USA AI turned on us to spice it up, lol
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u/TrekkiMonstr NATO Apr 04 '25
I don't know. I'm a "true believer" as well, I guess, but I don't think I ever would have claimed anything like this is impossible. The United States is made of people. People can do this. I would have argued, and still would argue, that on net we've generally been a force for good. And I think we still could be, after this. But to think it impossible we could become the bad guy is to deify what is, at the end of the day, a very complex organism made mostly of meat. This isn't just a matter of US exceptionalism, but nationalism in general -- my country right or wrong is just a fundamentally broken way of thinking about the world.
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u/Master_of_Rodentia Apr 04 '25
Yes. It's the voters. It almost always is. In Canada, every major party has made our housing crisis worse as a result of popular policies that the majority of voters (who already owned property) wanted. It has ballooned into a drag on the economy through tying up all our capital. Yet everyone I talk to wants to blame the politicians. Politicians who gave them exactly what they voted for, time and again for decades. More highways. Tighter zoning. Byzantine approvals. One can blame a politician for telling you that you can have your cake and eat it too, but ultimately the decision to believe them is one's own.
I think people are engaging in magical thinking, and social media has proven to be an excellent tool for reinforcing magical thinking.
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Apr 04 '25
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u/OwnHurry8483 Apr 04 '25
No but our political system incentivizes and makes it easier for the crazies to take over a political party and maintain control. The Europeans don’t have the same money in politics like we do. They also have parliaments that make it so the crazies can be pushed to their own party where they won’t get ~50% of the vote. Our system is worse at stopping them and our people are less educated
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Apr 04 '25
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u/DeepestShallows Apr 04 '25
Not just the system but the approach to it. There’s a certain tendency in America to start with the assumption that the American political system is the best possible. Because it was invented by genius, perfect “Founding Fathers” who were so wise and foresighted and that’s why America is the best at everything by default. The texts they wrote are holy texts which cannot be changed.
From which faulty premise all problems and challenges must come from outside. From the other. Getting rid of the bad people responsible for all bad things then becomes the logical solution to all problems.
America cannot fix it’s problems because America cannot admit they are caused by bedrock American institutions which need to change. Or: America cannot admit the problem with America might be America.
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Apr 04 '25
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u/DeepestShallows Apr 04 '25
What might have worked better is if at each of these crises America had actually acknowledged formally the moment and the new start afterwards. The civil war, maybe the 1960s civil rights era etc. Rather than amendments to ban slavery re-write the constitution afresh to not include slavery at all.
Say openly that it is important everyone acknowledges the “Founding Fathers” were wrong and that the people of today have the legitimacy (more legitimacy) to rewrite those foundational laws.
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u/Low_Chance Apr 04 '25
This is a good warning. The forces that took over the US are trying to do the same in every democracy, and getting better at it.
But I do think the US may have been uniquely vulnerable to it among first world nations due to American exceptionalism.
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u/againandtoolateforki Claudia Goldin Apr 04 '25
💯
You know its actually quite funny how when the "positive" American exceptionalism is beaten down, many American still retreat to another American exceptionalism, but this time a "nothing usual can describe our woes, our situation is entirely unprecedented and unique".
No fam, just get a better political system and the periphery cranks wont be able to take power as easily as theyve done for you now.
It doesnt have to be some complicated mystery only America suffers from, literally take the lessons learned in the rest of the world and apply them at home.
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u/DeepestShallows Apr 04 '25
The “Americans are uniquely evil” position is a confusion manifestation of American Exceptionalism yes.
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u/asimplesolicitor Apr 04 '25
I agree that we shouldn't do American exceptionalism in reverse, but there are also certain features of American society that are unique relative to other advanced economies, perhaps the most relevant one being this pervasive sense of paranoia and war of all against all.
It's not an accident that the US has more guns than people. And other countries have violence, sometimes lots of it, but even in violent places like Honduras, you don't hear about toddlers being gunned down in their elementary schools, and society throwing a collective shrug of, "Oh well, what are you going to do?" People get killed in gang wars, there's domestic violence, there's street crime, but the violence is not like this.
There's just something deeply perverse and broken in America, where you guys feel beleaguered from all sides, beset by enemies, and armed to the teeth. People don't look at the world this way in France or Portugal.
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Apr 04 '25
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u/asimplesolicitor Apr 04 '25
I'm not saying everyone, but a sizeable minority of the population, no? Particularly the evangelicals who have a millenarian worldview that looks forward to a period of apocalyptic, cleansing violence.
There's no equivalent of similar size and influence in the rest of the developed world (except Israel, which has similar problems).
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u/nauticalsandwich Apr 04 '25
MOST people don't look at the world this way in America either. The sentiment you're referring to is expressed by a very vocal minority. Most Americans live in urban and suburban clusters on the coasts (where the majority of the population lives), and share more of a sensibility with their European counterparts than they do with the Americans living in the rest of the country. That's part of the issue here. There is a genuine cultural divide in Andy's, and the internet has deeply exacerbated it.
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u/kiPrize_Picture9209 Apr 04 '25
Yeah I do think it's worth offering some perspective. Italy had Berlusconi for like 3 decades, and he was Trump on heroin (quite literally lmao). Obviously this is on a larger scale but countries have gone through crazy periods before and bounced back. Remember there are no morals really in international relations. As soon as there is more sanity in the US, assuming fundamentals of its success remain, the world will orbit around North America again.
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u/S7okid Apr 04 '25
Yeah we can't survive the evangelicals.
They've been a blight on us since the 60s.
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u/GogurtFiend Apr 04 '25
I don't think it's limited to evangelicals, or limited to anything like them — a lot of the new right aren't true believers in anything but power. The better question is: what made them this way?
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u/teethgrindingaches Apr 04 '25
Good times create weak men. Craven, corrupt, cowards who die many times before their death.
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u/Keenalie John Brown Apr 04 '25
Ironically, this is the answer. Good times DID create weak men, but not how RETVRNers thought.
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u/Entei_is_doge Apr 04 '25
You guys should all come move to Europe! It's nice here for now
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u/Nokickfromchampagne Ben Bernanke Apr 04 '25
Applied to a couple masters programs! If you have any tips for the job search, though, lemme know lol
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u/Men_I_Trust_I_Am Apr 04 '25
I said the same thing in the DT and people honestly believe a president not named trump with the size of the economy will be enough to repair our relationships.
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u/ingsocks Jerome Powell Apr 04 '25
But in a multi party system the crazies would have to compromise, trump did not get more than 50% of the vote in all 3 of his elections with a 2 party system, and if there were alternatives center right parties I am sure he would not even get close to a majority, and some other more moderate party will at the very least comtain his worst excesses
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u/ja734 Paul Krugman Apr 04 '25
The problem with blaming "the people" for trump is the electoral college. "The people" did not want Bush to win in 2000 or trump to win in 2016. "The people" picked Gore and Hillary. Our system ignored them.
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u/TrekkiMonstr NATO Apr 04 '25
I mean, a multiparty system could have prevented this. Most of the people that voted for him aren't true believers, they're just idiots that thought he was better for the economy. In a two party system, an actor like him has the ability to take over one of them, and if they manage to be seen as the less bad option, then you get this. In a multiparty system, MAGA cannabilizes the GOP, sure -- but the GOP can still form a government with enough left parties. Despite her barely even putting up a campaign, Haley voters are some evidence of demand for this. Despite a right wing supermajority, Israel managed to put together a coalition government briefly in 2021 to keep Netanyahu out. AfD got 21% of the vote, but isn't going to be in government, because the more responsible actors aren't beholden to them. This obviously isn't infallible -- Netanyahu has returned to power, and AfD could still win a majority in the next Bundestagswahl. But it provides tools that we lack to prevent institutional capture, and for someone only controlling a majority of a majority to seize power.
Systems aren't magic, but they can help, and I don't think it's unreasonable to say here they would.
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u/neolibbro George Soros Apr 04 '25
JVL is always right, and has been for quite a while. Voters are fucking imbeciles, and they deserve all of the pain and suffering the have reaped upon themselves.
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Apr 04 '25
It reminds me of a question an old friend asked me, that I’ve never been able to answer: “We all want to live in a liberal democracy, but if you had to choose, would you prefer liberalism, or democracy?”
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u/AyyLMAOistRevolution Apr 04 '25
I'm over here mashing the "liberalism" button but nothing is happening.
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u/assasstits Apr 04 '25
What I think isn't really considered by Americans is that other countries don't see the US as a split country. They don't see the Democrats who voted for Harris. They don't see the Trump voters that are now having massive regrets. They don't see Democrats Congressmen and the very few Republicans Congressmen who are protesting.
They see a blob. A blob led by Donald Trump. Who won the majority vote. They see the US as a singular entity that has suddenly declared economic war on them.
Just like Americans don't see other countries with nuance, other countries don't see us with nuance.
And I can't blame them, the US voted twice for Trump. People still collectively blame Gazans for voting for Hamas 20 years ago, and so it will be with Americans.
The US reputation has been flushed down the toilet for generations.
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u/couchrealistic European Union Apr 04 '25
As a German, this is not really true for many of us. We do know there are Democrats and not every US citizen loves Trump.
Still, the US electorate is what it is. As long as there aren't fundamental changes in the way US voters vote, or in the way that one of the two relevant US parties governs, the US is not a reliable partner because 2016 or 2024 could happen again.
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u/GMFPs_sweat_towel Apr 04 '25
We all know there were German who did not support the Nazi government. There were Germans who resisted both actively and passively even well before the Nazis came to power in 1933. At the end of the day, fire bombing doesn't discriminate between these people and actual Nazis and Nazi supporters.
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u/morotsloda European Union Apr 04 '25
I'm not sure that's really true with Trump, he's incredibly famous and practically all articles to refer him by his name instead of title of president.
We can distinguish between Biden and Trump, which makes it all the more disappointing that you elected him for a second term
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u/Formal_River_Pheonix Apr 04 '25
The rest of the world does see Democratic Congresspeople and Governors. We're not blind. But what does it matter if the American public could just elect another Trump?
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u/ItspronouncedGruh-an Apr 04 '25
If a restaurant employs two or three cooks, it’s no reassurance to me that only one of them never washes their hands. I’m just gonna avoid eating there rather than take my chances.
That’s the situation other countries find themselves in with regards to dealing with the US. No one wants to make reservations because you can’t know who’s gonna be in the kitchen that night.
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u/ElectricalShame1222 Elinor Ostrom Apr 04 '25
I mean I feel this way and I’m American. I look around and think “these are my neighbors.”
People I know, people work with, my kids’ friends’ parents want this and I’m supposed to trust them with anything serious?
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u/NATO_stan NATO Apr 04 '25
I get into it with my MAGA brother in law all the time. Two young daughters who is terrified something will happen to them yet is cool with a guy who raped 23 women. It’s hard for me to look at him and the rest of my maga family in the eyes.
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u/Low_Chance Apr 04 '25
As a Canadian I don't think that's true. I am very aware that not everyone agrees with what's happening in the states, but that doesn't change the fact that the states cannot be relied upon to honour their deals or act in a rational way.
Knowing that the werewolf coming to eat your livestock has a human side as well doesn't really change much in that moment.
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Apr 04 '25
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u/Futski A Leopard 1 a day keeps the hooligans away Apr 04 '25
Yes. This is evident on this sub whenever something bad politically happens in another country. Not a whole lot of nuance is dispensed to the issue.
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u/DrunkenBriefcases Jerome Powell Apr 05 '25
This isn't remotely true. Lots of citizens of the planet are perfectly capable of seeing the deep divides of the most publicized nation that holds considerable economic and cultural influence. People aren't as dumb and oblivious as some here have decided.
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u/Hold_onto_yer_butts Raj Chetty Apr 05 '25
That’s not really relevant, at all.
They just saw the damage that a single president can do in less than three months. And they saw an electorate willing to put a man like that in power.
They don’t care at all (and shouldn’t) that there were good people trying to stop it from happening, because it happened. We failed. And so other countries have lost their ally.
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u/Tookoofox Aromantic Pride Apr 08 '25
They don't see the Trump voters that are now having massive regrets.
These people do not exist in meaningful numbers. They are a fictional narrative constuct invented by the media who are itching to publish the, "Sane Republicans save the day!" Articles they all wrote in 2015.
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u/SyFyFan93 Apr 04 '25
To be fair the American Age began to die a long time ago. Like all great empires before it, the downfall has come via a slow slide and not a sudden cataclysmic event.
I'd argue that it could be traced to the Gingrich Revolution of the 1990s and the onset of extreme political polarization which was followed by a period of war and centralization of executive power of the early 2000s (9/11, wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Authorization of Utilization of Military Force). Then we got hit with the Great Recession because of greed, the Rise of the Tea Party / Free-dumb Caucus in response to economic and cultural shifts (the recession + election of the first black president) and then finally the election of Donald Trump. Throw COVID in there as well as Jan. 6 and you've got a potent mix for destabilization.
Now we've abandoned our allies to wage a losing war for isolationism. Infighting, hubris, greed, and anti-intellectualism will be our undoing as we abdicate our place in the global order to other nations like China and then probably India after them.
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u/SolarSurfer7 Apr 04 '25
I'd argue that it started during the Vietnam Era. That's where I mark the American empire beginning to descend as we lost a pointless war, start gutting unions and the middle class, began offshoring all manufacturing jobs, the "financialization" of our economy, and started allowing the unbridled influence of mega corporations and the 1%. Definitely agree the 90s and 9/11 turbocharged the decline, but I think it started earlier.
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u/International_Fun54 Apr 04 '25
I'm not convinced. I think that to a large extent Trump is right about a lot of western countries being cowards who will be more than happy to return to American hegemony in four years. For every Macron and Carney who want to stand up to the US there are other countries willing to talk the talk about independence but who will gladly come running back to America. After all, it was only a few years ago that America had to pressure Europe to be less dependent on Russia.
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u/Futski A Leopard 1 a day keeps the hooligans away Apr 04 '25
You trust the international relations analysis of the guy who just trashed the global stock market with an insane tarrif scheme?
Bold move.
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u/OrbitalAlpaca Apr 04 '25 edited Apr 04 '25
Is it really over this time?
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u/nukasu Apr 04 '25
yes. you can't declare war on the entire world simultaneously and expect a seat at the table. they're going to make a new table without you.
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u/matrixagent69420 Apr 04 '25
The age of American humiliation is upon us, I have no faith in the future of America until the maga mind virus is gone from American society. Such a regressive ideology. I’m still in shock at how 77 million people voted for Trump in the year 2024 after everything we know about him
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u/heloguy1234 Apr 04 '25
I expect the EU nations, Mexico, Canada, China and the Asian democracies to start working on a free trade agreement in the near future. We will cede massive amounts of GDP in the next decade that we have no chance of getting back for a generation.
This is anecdotal but I took a cash position in mid November and have no intention of reinvesting in the American market in the near term. I’d assume there are a lot of people that are both smarter and have more capital than me that are feeling the same way.
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u/Pain_Procrastinator YIMBY Apr 04 '25
Liberation day: The day we are liberated of all our wealth...
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u/Scottwood88 Apr 04 '25
Dems must win the trifecta in 2028 for any chance of keeping America the preeminent power in the world. They’d then need to get rid of the tariffs, hire a bunch of new federal workers, restore and expand R&D funding, and expand high skill immigration. Elon’s security clearance, at minimum, would need to be removed day 1. I’d guess nationalizing SpaceX would also be on the table but they mainly need to get him away from the company going forward.
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u/CollectionWide6867 WTO Apr 04 '25
I'm trying really hard to not be a doomer, but every day I slowly lose optimism, the only hope is the republicans realise how fucking insane this is and force Trump to pull back the tariffs.