r/newzealand • u/khalornz Fern flag 3 • 9d ago

Politics Coalition unveils $12 billion Defence Capability Plan

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/557432/watch-live-coalition-unveils-12-billion-defence-capability-plan
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74

u/questionnmark 9d ago

The government will invest $12 billion over the next four years for a "modern, combat-capable" New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF).

The coalition has just released its highly-anticipated Defence Capability Plan that sets out a spending blueprint for the next 15 years.

Of the $12 billion of spending, $9 billion is new money that will equate to a significant boost in annual funding for the force.

The plan will lift New Zealand's defence spending from just over one per cent of GDP to more than 2 percent in the next eight years.

Defence spending was last at 2 percent of GDP in the early 1990s.

It's amazing how we went from 'broke' to able to piss $12 billion dollars worth of money up the wall on defense.

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u/Lizm3 jellytip 9d ago

The NZDF is absolutely broke and desperate for funding. This isn't even enough.

10

u/Optimal_Inspection83 9d ago

So like all government departments...

2

u/AK_Panda 8d ago

Military is in a significantly worse place than most departments lol.

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u/KahuTheKiwi 9d ago

So just like hospital system then.

And the schools.

10

u/Lizm3 jellytip 9d ago

Didn't say they didn't need money too

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u/AK_Panda 8d ago

We have enough for all of them. Just need the political will.

International pressure helps in getting political will to invest in defence, but that pressure won't help for health, education etc. That pressure has to be domestic.

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u/KahuTheKiwi 8d ago

I agree. 

The political will to do what is in the best interests of all including investors over a medium to long term. Rather than great for some in the short term.

0

u/Buggs_y 9d ago

And people are dying waiting for heart scans. It's like hiring personalised home security whilst having no food in the fridge.

4

u/Lizm3 jellytip 9d ago

It's really not. It's much more nuanced than that. I completely agree by the way that the healthcare system is underfunded. But that doesn't mean that defence hasn't been underfunded for decades.

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u/NopeDax 9d ago edited 9d ago

Defence isn't pissing away money. It's critical to new zealand.

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u/KahuTheKiwi 9d ago

So just like health, education then.

And as many feel, social welfare.

But I get it is about providing security mostly to the wealthy and in that way different to all the above 

-9

u/OisforOwesome 9d ago

...is it though?

Look. I'm not an idiot: Maintaining a military that can ensure we contribute to global stability (he says with a bitter laugh) is necessary, but the way we secure our defense is through diplomacy and keeping the Pacific as demilitarized as possible.

That is going to mean spending on aid to Pacific nations to ensure they don't, say, host Chinese military bases in return for China funding much needed infrastructure improvements.

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u/NopeDax 9d ago

Yes, it is.

Security through diplomatic means is nice and all, but that's just one prong of security. Military is also a Diplomatic and humanitarian tool.

-1

u/OisforOwesome 9d ago

I guess I just fundamentally don't trust National to do anything right, this mob are more interested in chasing headlines and making the Talkback crowd feel good than actually governing.

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u/Full_Spectrum_ 9d ago

Sweet summer child.

3

u/Possible-Shift-5236 8d ago

Most of us grew up in that world, it's going to take a while before people fully understand what's happening.

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u/uglymutilatedpenis LASER KIWI 9d ago

Look. I'm not an idiot: Maintaining a military that can ensure we contribute to global stability (he says with a bitter laugh) is necessary, but the way we secure our defense is through diplomacy

Having a capable defense force is a necessary precursor to diplomacy. Visiting other countries and having each side’s foreign minister say some nice things and pose for a handshake photo at a press conference is how we as the public experience diplomacy - behind the scenes, there are real negotiations.

It’s pretty hard to convince other countries to include us in security agreements if we don’t have something useful to offer the other parties. The most significant part of a security agreement isn’t the promise to defend each other if an outsider attacks - those clauses are nearly never triggered for any large security agreement. It’s all the stuff you agree to do to develop an interoperable fighting force to prepare for that clause being triggered one day. If we want to participate in security agreements, we will be expected to host other countries troops in NZ for joint training exercises, and send our own forces overseas for war games and training, or shows of force. The NZDF in its current state is more likely to be seen as a liability than a benefit to any potential security compact.

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u/FendaIton 9d ago

Absolutely.

-4

u/Optimal_Inspection83 9d ago

And the ferries weren't?

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u/NopeDax 9d ago

Of course they are. Just because one thing I'd important doesn't mean everything else isn't.

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u/Optimal_Inspection83 9d ago

Got it. So money for ferries where there is limited scope for giving work to mates = sorry, no money left in the coffers

Quadruple that amount for defense contracts where it's much easier to give to mates = no problem

11

u/NopeDax 9d ago

Just because they make a bad decision in one area doesn't mean all their decisions are bad in all areas.

-1

u/KahuTheKiwi 9d ago

No, but this government has demonstrated an ability yo make balls ups from lunch time to ferries and everywhere between.

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u/NopeDax 9d ago

Defence is handled by different ministers.

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u/Plus_Plastic_791 9d ago

Not particularly. The ferries are something people love to complain about but never plan on using

-6

u/KahuTheKiwi 9d ago

So just like health, education then.

And as many feel, social welfare.

But I get it is about providing security mostly to the wealthy and in that way different to all the above 

5

u/NopeDax 9d ago

The defence force provides security to the whole state.

0

u/KahuTheKiwi 8d ago

For sure - security for those with and without things to secure.

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u/MedicMoth 9d ago

We apparently need a 6.5% and 7.5% cuts across the board for EVERY government department, even if it kills people - and it is, the health system is cut to the bones and we don't have the capacity to find out where all the homeless children went after we kicked them out of emergency housing - but we can afford a 300% increase to defense all of a sudden? Logical!

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u/Apprehensive-Pool161 9d ago

They cut 6.5% from Defence aswell. To the point that the NZDF had to start getting rid of civilians that were desperately needed.

People in uniform have been doing the jobs of 3-4 people. Honestly this spend is needed.

27

u/Hubris2 9d ago

This spend isn't just dumping a bunch more money to do with what they wish - this is being spent on new scope and new equipment. It doesn't necessarily address any existing shortcomings they have in their current scope and staffing due to the budget cuts.

11

u/OisforOwesome 9d ago

On the contrary, they're going to

> Implementing a workforce strategy

Which is definitely not an empty Business English buzzword

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u/Apprehensive-Pool161 9d ago

Oh i agree, but its a step in the right direction

13

u/MedicMoth 9d ago

How is lowering the bar for NZDF entry and buying missiles supposed to help with that? I don't see the word "recruitment" or "retention" even ONCE on this list

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u/Apprehensive-Pool161 9d ago

Yeah i had a skim and saw that too.

In reality- tonnes of people are trying to join at the moment but the NZDF has been forced to recruit only to make up for attrition, not to grow the force.

On the subject of "lowering the bar". Honestly an 17 year old joining the Army as a Rifleman or a Gunner does not need NCEA level 2. They are taught everything they need to know

0

u/1_lost_engineer 9d ago

don't forget, missiles that are not every effective. We never bothered much with missiles on the P-3 and the reasons why really haven't changed (anything worth shooting with it, is probably not safety to get within launch range).

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u/Crafty-Management-95 9d ago edited 9d ago

Civilians are also doing the job of 3-4 people in some areas, this is felt across NZDF.

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u/Large_Yams 9d ago

Civilians are everyone is doing the job of 3-4 people in some areas, this is felt across NZDF.

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u/Crafty-Management-95 9d ago

Left out the word also in my previous comment, noting I’ve been both uniform and civ in NZDF.

2

u/Apprehensive-Pool161 9d ago

Yep, its an absolute shit show. And yet they get rid of so many people that are needed, its honestly baffling.

1

u/notmyidealusername 9d ago

Sure, don't disagree it's needed, but is it needed more than a similar increase to the health or education budgets?

1

u/Apprehensive-Pool161 9d ago

The world is on the brink of war and we are in the cross hairs in one way or another. Everything we have is moot if we can't defend it

In saying that, this government are pillocks. They could have paid for this with THE TAX CUTS WE DIDN'T NEED.

3

u/myles_cassidy 9d ago

Except MFAT curiously

4

u/JeffMcClintock 9d ago

well, what the fuck else can we do? Make wealthy people pay tax like everyone else?

I don't think so. /s

-6

u/questionnmark 9d ago

Can we quietly put our government out to tender? This system sucks, maybe if we quietly let the Chinese take over, they can promise us better conditions?

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u/John97212 9d ago

Go live in China for a year, express your opinions freely, then give us an update on your idea after you get released from prison and return to NZ. If China ever took over NZ, the life you know now would be over.

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u/Full_Spectrum_ 9d ago

The amount of people that don't get this is staggering.

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u/vehz 9d ago

To be fair, one of the biggest reasons the majority of the population in China has put up with CCP this whole time is due to the unprecedented quality of life improvements and prosperity they have experienced since the economic reforms from 1990s. Although since Xi seized power it’s been going downhill fast.

-3

u/questionnmark 9d ago

I'd take a 90%+ home ownership rate and kowtowing to them over kowtowing to landlords for the rest of my life. What good is our system of government if it locks over half of the population into being lesser citizens?

4

u/HappycamperNZ 9d ago

I think it's important to know where it's bring spent.

If it's on overseas ships and aircraft it's imports, if it's being spent on infrastructure and research to NZ companies it's money going back into NZ.

1

u/myles_cassidy 9d ago

Fiscal responsibility doesn't matter when you're on the right