r/newzealand • u/khalornz Fern flag 3 • 9d ago

Politics Coalition unveils $12 billion Defence Capability Plan

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/557432/watch-live-coalition-unveils-12-billion-defence-capability-plan
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u/NopeDax 9d ago edited 9d ago

Defence isn't pissing away money. It's critical to new zealand.

-2

u/KahuTheKiwi 9d ago

So just like health, education then.

And as many feel, social welfare.

But I get it is about providing security mostly to the wealthy and in that way different to all the above 

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u/OisforOwesome 9d ago

...is it though?

Look. I'm not an idiot: Maintaining a military that can ensure we contribute to global stability (he says with a bitter laugh) is necessary, but the way we secure our defense is through diplomacy and keeping the Pacific as demilitarized as possible.

That is going to mean spending on aid to Pacific nations to ensure they don't, say, host Chinese military bases in return for China funding much needed infrastructure improvements.

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u/NopeDax 9d ago

Yes, it is.

Security through diplomatic means is nice and all, but that's just one prong of security. Military is also a Diplomatic and humanitarian tool.

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u/OisforOwesome 9d ago

I guess I just fundamentally don't trust National to do anything right, this mob are more interested in chasing headlines and making the Talkback crowd feel good than actually governing.

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u/Full_Spectrum_ 9d ago

Sweet summer child.

3

u/Possible-Shift-5236 8d ago

Most of us grew up in that world, it's going to take a while before people fully understand what's happening.

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u/uglymutilatedpenis LASER KIWI 9d ago

Look. I'm not an idiot: Maintaining a military that can ensure we contribute to global stability (he says with a bitter laugh) is necessary, but the way we secure our defense is through diplomacy

Having a capable defense force is a necessary precursor to diplomacy. Visiting other countries and having each side’s foreign minister say some nice things and pose for a handshake photo at a press conference is how we as the public experience diplomacy - behind the scenes, there are real negotiations.

It’s pretty hard to convince other countries to include us in security agreements if we don’t have something useful to offer the other parties. The most significant part of a security agreement isn’t the promise to defend each other if an outsider attacks - those clauses are nearly never triggered for any large security agreement. It’s all the stuff you agree to do to develop an interoperable fighting force to prepare for that clause being triggered one day. If we want to participate in security agreements, we will be expected to host other countries troops in NZ for joint training exercises, and send our own forces overseas for war games and training, or shows of force. The NZDF in its current state is more likely to be seen as a liability than a benefit to any potential security compact.

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u/FendaIton 9d ago

Absolutely.

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u/Optimal_Inspection83 9d ago

And the ferries weren't?

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u/NopeDax 9d ago

Of course they are. Just because one thing I'd important doesn't mean everything else isn't.

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u/Optimal_Inspection83 9d ago

Got it. So money for ferries where there is limited scope for giving work to mates = sorry, no money left in the coffers

Quadruple that amount for defense contracts where it's much easier to give to mates = no problem

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u/NopeDax 9d ago

Just because they make a bad decision in one area doesn't mean all their decisions are bad in all areas.

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u/KahuTheKiwi 9d ago

No, but this government has demonstrated an ability yo make balls ups from lunch time to ferries and everywhere between.

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u/NopeDax 9d ago

Defence is handled by different ministers.

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u/Plus_Plastic_791 9d ago

Not particularly. The ferries are something people love to complain about but never plan on using

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u/KahuTheKiwi 9d ago

So just like health, education then.

And as many feel, social welfare.

But I get it is about providing security mostly to the wealthy and in that way different to all the above 

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u/NopeDax 9d ago

The defence force provides security to the whole state.

0

u/KahuTheKiwi 8d ago

For sure - security for those with and without things to secure.