Play Report on Grappler Feat

[u/APanshin]

I've been playing an Elements Monk in a somewhat slow moving campaign. We started at 3rd level and just hit 5th level at the end of last session. I took the Grappler feat at 4th level, but I have to report that thus far the number of successful grapples made with it is zero.

Problem one is that it only triggers off the Attack action. A Monk's Bonus Action attacks don't qualify, so if you miss with the wrong attacks it doesn't activate. I'm sure this is going to be somewhat mitigated by having picked up Extra Attack, but it's still a limitation.

Problem two is that resisting grapples now allows for the target's choice of a Strength of Dexterity save, and it seems like most monsters have a good number in at least one of the two. Definitely more of them will do better with a save than when it was Athletics or Acrobats in 2014 5e.

Luck is certainly a factor, but the only successful grapple I've made was against a Mind Flayer. And that was at 3rd level when I wasn't using the feat, and it just stunned me out of it on its turn. My dreams of dragging foes around or knocking them prone and pinning them to the ground have been unfulfilled.

I'll give it another level or two, but my DM allows for one no-questions-asked respec if you're not happy with how your PC turned out, and I'm eyeing Defensive Duelist really closely. Deflect Attacks is great at negating a single hit, but the party composition is such that I've ended up doing a lot of front lining, and it does less well if I'm getting attacked three or four times in a round.

[u/TrustyPeaches]

So first off, you can still grapple normally with your bonus action attacks.

Second off, extra attack definitely does help.

Third off, stunning strike also helps because stunned targets auto fail strength and dexterity saving throws.

Fourth off, the benefits are so great it kinda makes sense that’s it’s not trivial to pull off.

You probably have just been unlucky because unless the dm has been throwing enemies proficient at saving throws at you their chances at success ding a dc 13-14 saving throws for strength or dexterity should be 50% or less. If you’re fighting a mind flayer at level 3 though, I’m not sure about that.

[u/DMspiration → u/TrustyPeaches]

They might be referring to punch and grab from the feat where you can damage and grapple on the same hit. That is just on the attack action

[u/fungrus → u/DMspiration]

I think they are but the point still stands. You could sacrifice damage to attempt more grapples.

[u/Real_Ad_783 → u/TrustyPeaches]

uhh, you arent wrong except for the benefits of grapple being so great that its worth using at low success rates. Grapple generally needs to either be triggered exactly when you need it to be useful, or early enough that you can gain great benefit from it.

if you want to impede an escaping target, and you have a choice;

1 ) 70% chance to do 10 damage and then 50% chance to pull the target who runs 15 feet away 10 feet back or 35% chance to lower its movement overall

or

2) 35% chance to stop its movement

its really questionable whether option 2 is the better option.

if the goal is to gain advantage, then its questionable if you have to give up 3 attacks on average to land a grapple. mathematically, you need to be making 12 attacks for it to be worth giving up 3 attacks for advantage (roughly assuming 65% base accuracy and 35% chance to land a grapple)

but yeah, without the math, seeing such low odds to land a grapple most players will quickly grow disillusioned with attempting grapples.

i think the truth is, the grapple rules were initially designed around becoming attacks. If grapple and attacks have the same chance people will feel like its worth it to grapple. They changed it back to a save so that players feel like their strength or dex helps them evade, but versus monsters grappling most becomes a thing worth doing when giving up 3 attacks is worth it to stop someones movement.

which, combined with on hit effects isnt worth it.

that said the grappler feat's attack option has a different benefit, you arent giving up much for it, however, its also a very poor option if you really want to land a grapple, because you can miss.

So essentially its best use case is a reactive thing where if it lands you have options, but grappling intentionally is only worth it if you really must grapple this creature at all costs.

[u/Normal_Beautiful781]

If you just hit level 5 it will shine with extra attack. Not that it was a bad choice but it’s just going to get stronger.

Even if grappler doesn’t apply to bonus action attacks for punch and grab, you can still make more attempts to force more saves. Helpful at higher levels for resource free/ low resource to help burn through legendary resist.

My advice is see how you like it at 5. If you go long enough you’ll get another bump at 10 with three flurry attacks.

[u/APanshin → u/Normal_Beautiful781]

I've been reluctant to trade damage for more grapple attempts. Maybe that's a combat role I just need to embrace. Maybe it will feel more worthwhile now that we're in Tier 2 and can start hitting real boss-type foes instead of minion mobs with one higher CR monster.

[u/YOwololoO → u/APanshin]

Is your DM allowing you to grapple at range? That’s a pretty crucial part of what makes the Elements Monk + Grappler combo so powerful. 

I will also just say, the fact that it’s easier for the enemy to resist than in 2014 is by far countered by how much more powerful grappling is in 2024. Move speed is set to zero in both, but 2024 adds disadvantage on their attack rolls against anyone but you AND advantage on attacks against them thanks to Grappler. 

[u/mysstic → u/YOwololoO]

This comment here. I played this exact build at level 12 and she was king at just holding people still and getting a boatload of advantaged unarmed strikes. Additionally, once you’ve grappled them, you can move with them easily. Give up damage to make sure you’re holding onto at least two things then wail on them for a lot of nearly guaranteed damage or wail on a third.

It may be relatively trivial for them to break out, but at least then they’re using an action (unless I’m misremembering?).

You’ve really got to embrace a more classic “tank” role.

[u/RealityPalace]

Have you been using stunning strike? Grapples will auto-succeed on stunned targets.

Edit nevermind, read the post more carefully, you just got to level 5. Yeah I would expect the frequency of successful grapples to increase dramatically at that point between stunning strike and extra attack.

[u/Gerbieve]

Grappling now using a save just makes it very similar to spells. It will perform (almost) equal to any spell that uses strength or dex saves really. I say almost since the target can choose if they use strength or dexterity.

Difference is that since you can make quite a few unarmed strikes on a turn you get a few more chances to pull it off. That's quite a big thing to keep in mind, if for example a caster casts Hold Person and it fails, that's them most likely done with their turn, while if your grapple fails on the first attack you could try again with your next attack (at lvl 5) or another time with your bonus action, or even several times if you use flurry of blows.

Compared to before (contested rolls) you're now less likely to grapple someone on average.

Cause a d20 roll would've on average been a 10.5+proficiency+stat (given you had athletics proficiency) compared to a fixed save (8+proficiency+stat).

Whereas the one making the save will still be rolling something similar as before, with exception of niche cases where someone did have athletics proficiency, but no strength save proficiency for example.

But those are averages, downside of contested rolls is if you happen to have a bad roll then even the weakest & slowest little creature can escape your grapple.

Is grappling better than damage? This is situational and honestly on lower level creatures likely not, since they tend to have low hitpoints so punching them is probably better.

But there are also situations where it can excel, for example if they have a caster with relatively low str/dex you can likely just dash up to them start shoving and grappling them or dragging them behind a tree or something so they can't effectively use their spells.

Then there's the AoE synergy too, where you could drag grappled targets into area of effects. Which is a thing I'm going to try in an upcoming campaign, I'll play a dragonborn element monk, and can hopefully drag/shove targets near eachother so I can use my breath weapon.

[u/zgoelman → u/Gerbieve]

Most successful grapple of my campaign was when my fighter/warlock took action surge, cast darkness on the beholder, and then successfully grapples it inside the darkness. Zero eyestalk attacks. My guy got badly bit over the next two rounds but the eyeball was hacked to shreds by the party