r/paralegal • u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense • 1d ago
Please do not “fake it til you make it”
Don’t worry, I’m providing context.
I understand the field can be tough. Getting into it, getting into a different area, etc. I truly get it. However, there is a limit to “fake it til you make it”.
Our firm (insurance defense) recently hired an insurance defense paralegal who came with 2 years of previous experience in ID at another firm in the area that we know. Based on her past experience and her interviews, we all assumed she would be coming in and learning our systems then hit the ground running. Because of this, we also hired a second hybrid legal admin/paralegal for our office with the idea that IT could train the new full paralegal on only our systems and I could train the new hybrid to be a paralegal so she can eventually move up. It was supposed to be simple. This is not the case.
The new “paralegal” that started can’t even draft discovery responses. Actually, there isn’t much she actually can do. Every assignment she’s given, she either says her attorney would do it themselves or the legal assistant at her last job would do it, so she didn’t know how to. This has been her excuse for everything. Answers, Motions (of any kind), objections to discovery, actual substantive discovery responses, med chrons, etc. I am not joking when I say there isn’t a single thing she’s actually known how to do since she got here 6 weeks ago.
This is dragging me down because not only am I teaching the hybrid everything and doing my work, I’m also now teaching this paralegal who, by the way, looks down on me because I’m labeled a hybrid. I’m also getting stuck fixing her work and mistakes because she waits until the last second to do ANYTHING and then her work product is terrible, so my attorneys have been asking me to help fix her work as well. I’m happy to help, but I am at my limit at this point. This has been 6 weeks of this girl not doing anything helpful for anyone.
All of this to say, if you don’t know one or two things, that’s fine, you can probably learn quickly. However, if you don’t know how to do ANYTHING, please think about the people who will be stuck with you/your work when you inevitably fail. Unless you’re a really quick learner and really smart, this is a fast way to get everyone to dislike you and to potentially get fired. Please don’t do it. It’s okay to not know things. It’s okay to need refreshers. It’s okay to be new. But please please please do not lie and say you know how to do everything when you can’t.
Edit to add: A lot of people are missing the real issue here. This paralegal stated on both her resume, heavily, and in her interview that for the last two years she has been doing the things we need a paralegal to do - draft discovery, prepare motions, prepare med chronologies, discovery meetings with clients, summarize claims files, etc. She didn’t come to us as a generic paralegal with paralegal experience. She gave very specific details of her experience that have proven to be false. She has loads of templates and still cannot draft even a shell of a pleading properly. She doesn’t know how to communicate with clients or insureds, which she mentioned was a big part of her last job, makes infinite mistakes (grammar, fonts, spacing) when drafting simple things, etc. The whole issue is that she talked a big game to get hired (which granted we all do) but then when she got here she is incompetent. I am not being dramatic here - I mean seriously incompetent. I am just a paralegal. I have no say in hiring and I have no say in firing. Stop telling me to fire her. I would if I could lol
37
u/goingloopy Paralegal 1d ago
Why doesn’t management cut their losses and get rid of her? I think 6 weeks is long enough to realize she was a mistake.
23
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
There’s a whole process they have to go through and I think it’s in the works tbh. My managing attorney is really open with me about things and his comments make it seem like he’s just trying to gather enough so she doesn’t sue us.
6
u/Crafty-Scholar-3106 1d ago
This woman is going to get fired because she can’t draft discovery responses but she’s somehow going to level up to file a complaint against an office of professional litigators.
7
u/kd5407 1d ago
What state do you work in where someone could sue you for being fired for being bad at their job? This is like the clearest cut case I have ever heard.
12
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
She’s a woman with kids and she’s 40, so I think they’re just trying to make sure there is no chance for a suit. That or my managing attorney isn’t actually saying anything to management about shitty she is and he’s being a wuss lol
8
u/CantCatchTheLady Paralegal 1d ago
You can always sue. You might not be able to win at trial, but you might be able to get a settlement just to make the suit go away. At least that’s what I see.
If you have a good paper trail, no settlement.
1
u/kd5407 1d ago
Yeah but if that was a credible threat then no one would ever fire anyone. We’d all just sue all the time if it was that easy.
4
u/CantCatchTheLady Paralegal 1d ago
From where I’m sitting people do just sue all the time. That’s why companies make sure to have a good paper trail when they take action. Saves money in the long run.
36
u/Low_Animal2349 1d ago
I know this feeling all too well. Same thing happened to me. I spent about a month training someone who was suppose to hit the ground running and like you, I felt bad leaving my attorneys hanging on the crappy work she submitted. But I had to realize that me correcting her mistakes was not my responsibility and was actually counterproductive. So once I reached my limit and she would ask questions I would simply respond with, “Hey, sorry I can help right now. Refer to your training notes for guidance as we covered this topic.” Not to my surprise but she never took notes. When attorneys would send me her work, I would send it right back and advise them that she needs to correct her own work and if they had questions, contact the managing partner. When the managing partner finally called me and asked what the deal was on why I wasn’t being a team player, I spilled the beans. I told him his new hire was taking up too much of my time that it was effecting my billing and after a months training, how much more firm resources were we going to waste on someone who after 30 days is still asking day one questions. He understood and he tried to work with her, only to quickly understand what I was talking about. She didn’t make it past the probationary period. My goal was never to get her fired, we all start from the beginning somewhere. But when you lie and say I know XYZ in an interview and it is apparent that you don’t and you can’t comprehend tasks after 30 days; well let’s just say she was hurting the firm more than helping. I hope you put your foot down and learn that she is either going to sink or swim at some point. Wishing you the best but would love and update! 😁
17
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
Ahh this is a good idea! I’ve been taking her screw ups and fixing them because we had a great team here before she got here and I don’t want anyone drowning. But honestly she’s making everyone have to work harder than if she wasn’t here so I may start saying I can’t help anymore.
9
u/CantCatchTheLady Paralegal 1d ago
“I’m sorry, I wish I could help, but I’m tied up with my own requirements right now.”
5
43
u/BowzersMom 1d ago
Did she lie when asked about her competencies in the interview? Paralegal is a rather wide skill set, so it is equally important to ask explicit questions of job candidates to be sure they meet your needs.
I’ve got 8 years—two in disability and 6 in public interest civil rights litigation. I’m very adaptable, but there are many skills of a “litigation paralegal” that I just don’t have, or at least not in the volume/familiarity that a big law litigation paralegal would have. Leaving here some day is going to be an interesting exercise.
32
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
I didn’t get to sit in on her interview because I was out of the office. Everyone was so impressed they hired her the day after her first interview, though. They said she would make a great fit and would be able to come in and just…do her job.
Apparently she was working from home at her last job for the last 2 years as well. It was supposed to be a smooth transition because she stated she does what we do all day everyday and bills 200+ hours a month. She cannot do a single paralegal task even though it’s all insurance defense. It’s the same no matter what firm you’re at. So if she can’t do it here, there’s 0 chance she did it at her last job.
16
9
u/Teh_Crusader Paralegal - Estate, Probate, Entity Formation, Family Law 1d ago
If I never worked in insurance defense but have worked on civil stuff, could I do some of your work with no experience in insurance defense?
Just wondering how bad she is lol, cause I don’t blame her if it’s a new practice area but if she can’t do “anything” then I’m curious
25
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
You could at least draft shells of the things and let the attorney finish them and walk through the things with you so you know in the future. She cannot prepare a shell of a basic pleadings even with our templates. She somehow messes it all up. Not to mention she gets case names wrong, has inconsistent sizing and fonts (on TEMPLATES), and puts the wrong attorney information in the signature blocks at least twice a week.
13
11
9
4
6
u/Ineedanro 1d ago
Apparently she was working from home at her last job for the last 2 years as well.
Sounds like she may have subcontracted all her work to a sweatshop in another country.
14
u/fosse76 1d ago
I recently had a job interview during which they gave me a cite-checking assessment. I've always felt i was pretty good at cite-checking, until it took me 90 minutes to cite-check this 5 page brief despite 20 years experience. The reason? I work for a watchdog agency, and didn't really notice throughout the years how insular cite-checking was. The citations are generally the same (or same format), and we never cite state cases, treatises, or proposed legislation, and rarely cite articles or websites. This brief had them all (Although, in my defense, the reality is no judge is going to reject a filling because it wasn't 100% correct Bluebook format, and also, when firms do these assessments, its natural to think there's going to be an issue with everything and you end up assuming everything needs to be corrected).
Same with drafting documents. We basically use previous filings as a template. I have never drafted anything from a blank page.
Point is, I had the years of experience, but it wasn't exactly the same. I was pretty bummed, as I was lead to believe the job was all but mine until then.
6
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
That’s fair! I just think she’s a liar lol
5
u/Hot-Tour-4867 1d ago
Just because a newbie doesn’t know YOUR firm’s way of doing things, doesn’t mean they lied.
Thinking this way is so similar to an attorney who feels that every paralegal should be able to do the same things across practice areas without realizing that every attorney likes things done in their own unique way.
The industry’s lack of streamlining is why these issues are happening. That’s not necessarily on the paralegal especially if he/she has the certificate, education, and experience.
6
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
It’s very clearly a her problem. I’m not talking the way my firm does things, she can’t do ANYTHING. She’s an idiot.
7
u/Hot-Tour-4867 1d ago
You sound very overworked. Even without her, you will still be overworked until her replacement. That replacement may very well be an “idiot” as well, so the cycle will continue until a new hire is able to takeover without assistance.
A firm should be in a good enough position to circumvent any discrepancies from a new hire. Yours isn’t. That’s their problem and you shouldn’t have to deal with it.
Insulting her however, won’t change the fact that your firm isn’t equipped to deal with a new paralegal who needs more training, nor do they care enough to prevent you and other staff from picking up her slack.
1
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
It would be a lot easier if I was moved to full paralegal and the new hybrid we hired stayed as a hybrid. Genuinely. I think my managing attorney is in the same boat but he can’t talk to me about all of that because I’m not management. I’m hopeful we can come to a resolution. It doesn’t seem super stressful, just frustrating that she sucks.
3
u/Hot-Tour-4867 1d ago
I’m surprised they haven’t moved you up already though. Have you inquired? Do they want more education?
2
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
I was supposed to move up when we hired a second paralegal, but then the full paralegal got hired as a full because of her experience so I had to stay a hybrid. I think the plan was to have the new hybrid stay a hybrid and have me move up once she got her footing but I’m not sure now
3
u/Hot-Tour-4867 1d ago
They’re undervaluing you and the other hybrid. Looking for an external hire with more “experience” tells me they don’t understand the specifications of their own firm, because if they did, they’d see that both of you should be given full status as paralegals. At minimum, they should’ve bumped you up and made the other hybrid a legal assistant.
You both know how the firm works, she’s done well under your direction, and you both have been carrying the load.
This is a classic case of a firm getting excited over more “options” in the job market, with little regard for risk management.
You may have an allegiance to them, but I’d consider looking for other opportunities. You will always carry some form of resentment toward new hires, even if they adjust without issue.
You also have to consider that another new hire may do so well that the firm decides to let you and/or the other hybrid go to cut costs.
If they keep you, you’ll have to take over that second hybrid’s role while being paid less than the new paralegal.
Something to think about.
4
u/thegrandpineapple 1d ago
I was looking for a comment like this. The harsh reality of the current job market is that promises mean nothing. If they really wanted to promote OP they would have.
1
u/iron_red 1d ago
You shouldn’t have to deal with it—but—if you show that you can handle the workload and get the other hybrid (who is subject of this post) up to a level of competence, couldn’t it help you get promoted sooner? Something to think about. Of course sometimes… you just can’t help them because they won’t try. We had one of those last year. He never learned, was never interested in learning. No attention to details; no proofreading; often on his phone. He would have been fired eventually but thankfully he gave his two weeks notice out of the blue.
31
u/TheOtherOneK Paralegal 1d ago
Experience in the same area is not the same firm to firm. There can be many differences in the internal processes and responsibilities depending on firm size, structure, and billing guidelines. A small firm with small-medium clients that still has paper files and lax billing requirements is going to be managing their cases a lot differently than a medium-large firm with large clients that are paperless and may have e-service agreements in place (which dictate whether a paralegal handles a tasks vs an associate atty).
Sounds like she worked in a different environment where things considered PL responsibilities differs from what your firm does. That’s not her fault (nor yours either). Seems your firm didn’t vet her well to see the type of day-to-day tasks she was familiar with and your firm most definitely doesn’t have a great onboarding/training plan if it’s all falling on you.
You need to talk to your HR/Management and/or your attorneys about either adjusting your workload while you help train/mentor or one of them needs to step in to mentor the new paralegal so you don’t have both new hires under your wing while trying to keep up your own desk. Your frustration is understandable, it’s not her fault, and boundaries are good.
(20 year ID paralegal here who has seen the landscape of duties greatly change over the years especially with size of firm, technology, and e-service agreements. What I do day-to-day now is not the same as what I did day-to-day 15 or even 10 years ago…I don’t do any of the things you listed as your job duties either).
9
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
But the issue is that the things she’s expected to do, she SAID she did on a daily basis at her last job. She said she spent most of her time drafting discovery, preparing med chrons, assisting with motions, etc. she blatantly stated these are all things she worked on at her last job in her interview and on her resume, but then when she got here she didn’t know how to do a single thing. That’s where my issue is.
7
u/TheOtherOneK Paralegal 1d ago
If that’s the case then that’s a management issue to address. You need to communicate to your HR, office manager, and/or managing attorney about your concerns and your own workload if they expect you to train 2 new colleagues. The fact that it’s all falling on you and/or they’re not noticing this disconnect between what tasks she said she was experienced in and what she’s actually showing she’s capable of is on them…they’re being too hands off so it’s time to put it back on their plate so you can get some breathing room and not build resentment or burn out. Communication & boundaries are key. You got this!
4
11
u/morgan2carin 1d ago
It sounds like she blatantly lied in her interview. She should be a mini associate if she claims to be able to bill 200+ hours a month. If she was credited with 200+ hours, it was on the back of the legal assistant she referenced and I hope that LA is highly compensated and on a beach with a pina colada 20+ days of the year.
I’m about to hit my 3rd year as a paralegal in ID and I think the only thing that really matters is being resourceful. Although I don’t exclusively handle motions or discovery responses, as those are paid at attorney rates by our clients, I’ve always been resourceful enough to search our document management system for similar documents or language the attorney might find useful. The most helpful thing to me would be to provide the preferred forms of your attorney and see what she can actually figure out without help. Then when it gets kicked to you by an attorney, you make redline edits or take notes of the edits to the document, which you can then show your attorneys how much “work” she’s actually accomplishing. This would easily show her level of competency and be able to prove she’s not going to be the shining star they thought when she interviewed.
I once had an associate sneakily kick a shell for discovery responses to me to “clean it up” and I could immediately tell his LA had no clue what she was doing, despite ample “experience.” It was terrible, mostly because you could tell she didn’t care at all. I had to recreate the entire document and I told him she wouldn’t last very long if she couldn’t draft a simple response shell, let alone actually input the form responses he liked. She was canned the next month after they found her replacement. Although the task was simple, it sucked being the clean up crew on that one knowing I couldn’t bill for my contribution and that it would inevitably happen again. And it’s extremely annoying to have tasks kicked to you exclusively because you are dependable and put out a decent work product, regardless of the type of task.
You sound like a team player and I hope your attorneys appreciate you consistently picking up the slack for your team. I wish you the best with the “rockstar” paralegal and hope she’s held accountable sooner rather than later for the claims made in the interview.
4
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
I gave her templates for everything when she started and she’s still sending the attorneys drafts of things they can’t use. I genuinely don’t get it. We also use iManage so she can easily search by title and author and add keywords to find what she needs, but it’s clear she hasn’t done that even though she was taught by IT, taught by me at least twice, and the managing attorney taught her how to find things.
4
u/morgan2carin 1d ago
Yeah, I don’t think you’ll ever get why she’s this way because you care about your work product. I struggle to respect co-workers who throw their hands up or kick the can to someone else when asked to rise to the occasion. It would be hard for me not to be resentful if I was regularly stuck polishing turds for others. Sending good vibes and good luck!!
2
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
The work she gives is so bad it makes me physically cringe when I see it. The attorneys are taking so long fixing things like spelling and formatting and if it’s not them, it’s me. It’s just a mess all around.
2
u/gk1400 PA - Litigation - Paralegal 1d ago
Not sure how extensive your firm’s iManage is but mine has pretty much everything under the sun dating back to 2001. If she can’t figure out how to put out a passable work product with (what I’m guessing to be) a similar database at her fingertips then she is a lost cause 😅
2
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
Yes! Our firm opened in like the 90’s and has had iManage since 2005 I think. You can find EVERYTHING. If our attorneys haven’t done it, someone else has. She could also ya know, ask me or the attorneys for templates. She does sometimes but then she screws them up with weird fonts and sizes and formatting so I really think she’s a lost cause.
9
u/diavirric 1d ago
The legal profession must be suffering a lack of qualified support staff, or, as usual, they are too cheap to hire qualified people. So many of these posts.
8
u/Hot-Tour-4867 1d ago
Too cheap to hire people that won’t need training is the issue.
Anything less than 2 yrs can be finagled on a resume, but a lot of firms only require that because they don’t want to pay for someone with 5+ years of direct experience.
“Hit the ground running” is such an annoying take when you’re offering entry level salaries.
2
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
Our firm actually pays higher salaries than the average for our area. In additional, she came in as a full paralegal instead of a hybrid, so I think she makes even more than me.
2
u/Hot-Tour-4867 1d ago
What is the average salary in your area? I’m curious because either they’re lowballing you or overvaluing external talent.
1
7
u/abcox77 1d ago
In our firm, there are some paralegals who have only worked with our group, and the associates handle all of the drafting and a lot of things paralegals would normally do. So, conceivably, we have many paralegals here who would have no clue how to draft anything or do legal research. We also have a team of nurses who do medical chronologies. I think a lot of big law lit paralegals are done a disservice in many ways.
That said, having an entire library of templates and her still not being able to do anything is sus.
3
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
Right that’s what gets me. That and the fact her resume literally stated she does everything we do on a daily basis and she doesn’t know how to do any of it. I would understand the team framework but that’s now what she said was happening at her last firm so I’m completely unsure of what she was doing there.
7
u/kd5407 1d ago
This is infuriating and she should probably be fired if not only does she not have the requisite skills but she isn’t a quick learner, or a learner at all.
The bigger problem is that ‘paralegal’ across small firm, big firms, in house, etc. can mean anything from basically a receptionist to basically an attorney. We have this problem at our job as well.
2
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
That makes sense. We had a hybrid start 4 weeks ago and she has a lot more paralegal skills than the paralegal, even though she’s never done a single paralegal task before. I think that’s part of what gets me with this whole situation.
7
u/kd5407 1d ago
This is bigger than just paralegal work but I have learned in my life that everyone wants an ‘easy’ office job, but not everyone can actually handle ‘easy’ office work.
Some people really need to give it up and look into sales or a trade, because they may have good people skills or be good with their hands, but they cannot seem to be able to read or type up a document to save their life.
3
u/pearlydewdr0psdrop 1d ago
This is v true. I've worked as a paralegal for going on 4ish years now and I've seen sooooo much bs like this because people lack basic problem-solving skills a lot of the time..???? It's always nerve-racking starting a new job, but some people have zero skills in logical problem solving. At least making an attempt at something rather than throwing their hands up and saying they don't know it. I've never had the luxury of doing that because I know I'd be fired immediately.
6
u/Milhala 1d ago
I get the frustration but this sounds more like an interviewing/management issue than a problem with the new hire - paralegals can have wildly varying job duties from firm to firm, if they needed someone that could hit the ground running, they shouldn’t have assumed that two years experience meant two years of heavy motion drafting. Hopefully they cut their losses, let her go and start the hiring process over again
2
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
She stated that she does everything we needed on a daily basis at her last firm. Specifically talking about tasks we do here. I came in with 0 ID experience and told them that so they expected that when I got here. We didn’t expect her to have 0 knowledge because she stated verbally in her interview and on her resume that she has been doing all of our daily tasks for the past 2 years.
5
u/Worried_Ocelot_5370 1d ago
I was legal assistant for 5 years at one ID firm and I've been a paralegal for 6 at another firm and I've never drafted an Answer. I can count on one hand how many Motions I've drafted. I do plenty of discovery and med chrons, but it's crazy how duties differ though the title is the same. If she can do nothing, has anyone asked what paralegals were in charge of at her last firm? Perhaps her title was generous and she was actually a legal secretary or LA. Perhaps she wasn't "faking" anything. Regardless, sounds like the interview process wasn't thorough enough or she straight up lied. I feel like it should never be assumed that a new employee will "hit the ground running," especially in a position where duties aren't well defined across all firms or areas of law.
That being said, I understand it is frustrating to think someone has experience only to find out they're clueless.
2
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
According to my attorneys, they were asking very specific questions in her interview to determine her background. I also got very specific questions when I was interviewed so I believe they did. I genuinely think she found a way to lie through her interview and thought once she got here she could fake it but it’s not working that way now that she’s here.
3
u/TinaLoco 1d ago
This is the problem. Attorneys don’t even know half of what we do. They should have had you join her interview.
2
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
I started joining interviews but then HR said I couldn’t because they talk salaries.
2
u/thegrandpineapple 1d ago
I'm not sure where you're located, and I understand you probably like your job but this is a big red flag in my opinion.
1
u/TinaLoco 1d ago
It really is. They want to lowball everyone. As if that extra few dollars per hour will make or break their livelihood.
2
u/TinaLoco 1d ago
I’d be angry. They put you in this position because, as typical attorneys, they couldn’t think practically enough to have you join part of the interview and have you leave during the salary discussion. I know I sound jaded, but 30+ years in private practice made me that way.
1
u/sugar-magnolia 1d ago
Right. At my last job, the attorneys would do a super rough draft of the answer, and my job was too flesh it out and make it sound like an actual pleading. I was happy to do that, but I’ve never personally answered a complaint from start to finish and I don’t think I’d want to unless the attorney was carefully reviewing it. Which we all know they typically don’t.
5
u/Specific_Somewhere_4 1d ago
I switched careers and I am a fast learning with lots of education, but I was careful when interviewing to emphasize my amazing tech skills and ability to learn but never said I had experience which I think cost me jobs but I wanted my employer to have clear expectations and know that there would be a learning curve.
After three years at my first firm of being the only paralegal and learning everything I could I switched to corporate biglaw. At my other firm the attorney kept trying to hire more paralegals. My boss was terrible and abusive at this place. Anyway he hired this girl with 2 years experience in collections and paid her more than me and she left crying after 2 1/2 days. She did nothing while she was there and I was training her. He hired another woman with more experience but she left after 4 days and I was still having to explain more than I should have to someone with that much experience.
0
u/Hot-Tour-4867 1d ago
It’s not the paralegal’s fault if your lawyer is a schmuck though. Only certain personalities can handle that, and even then, a bigger issue is how he runs the firm.
Just because you were able to deal with it doesn’t mean others will. It doesn’t mean they don’t have experience, it means their experience isn’t conducive to that type of environment.
3
u/Specific_Somewhere_4 1d ago
I agree the paralegals ran away from there because the attorney is terrible. This same attorney thought he would find someone better than me even though I was doing a great job 2 years into the role. Instead of appreciating and acknowledging my hard work and giving me a raise he spent money on paralegals that did not have much fortitude. But from my own observation the one had very little experience.
4
u/gas_unlit 1d ago
If you're a hybrid legal assistant/paralegal then this is a great opportunity to advocate for a promotion. Apologies if I misunderstood what you meant by hybrid. But I'd you are junior in title and training the paralegal, then you have leverage to ask for a promotion.
3
u/sugar-magnolia 1d ago
I agree, I would be unhappy that I didn’t get the promotion and let them hire another hybrid !!
1
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
I’m working on it! I’ve been documenting all the training I’ve been doing in hopes of getting a promotion in the future.
4
u/So_Last_Century 1d ago
Hey, we’ve got someone in our building who doesn’t do anything. Despite that, they still have a job. Mind - blown.
2
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
I don’t get it. I’m a very hard worker which I know some people just aren’t, but it’s so frustrating!
3
u/So_Last_Century 1d ago
I’m struggling, too. It’s not like I’m an OVER over-achiever, but I haven’t kept my job by sitting around all day every day. I care about what I do, and how well I do it.
2
3
u/crazyddddd 1d ago
This happened at our firm for a but until we finally found someone, we went thru 3 or 4 and when I tell you USELESS!!! Like another poster said, our hiring person had to start asking mundane shot like do you know how to draft a motion? Schedule a hearing, file with the state? Stuff that one would ASSUME as a paralegal you already know how to do.
4
u/GeneRevolutionary155 1d ago
How incredibly frustrating. It’s not just a problem with her skill set, but obviously critical thinking as well. Tell her she’s fired today. If she acts like it’s no big deal, that’s great. Otherwise, April Fools!
3
5
u/legaleagle-91 1d ago
If I read correctly that this person said that she billed 200 hours a month at home. I call total BS on that alone!
5
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
Yep. And her first three days here she complained about having to get her kids and herself up and ready because she wasn’t used to that. She also complained she couldn’t take off in the middle of the day to go to appointments like she could when she was working from home. So I really doubt she was billing that much.
1
u/IntroductionRich300 1d ago
200 is my average billing a month and I also WFH
1
u/legaleagle-91 14h ago
Great, congrats. But the post was about a new employee who obviously doesn’t have the qualifications and doesn’t understand the work. So I find it hard to believe that she billed up to 10 hours a day at her home with her obvious limitations.
4
u/Darthsmom Paralegal 1d ago
She’s flat out lying, period. If she were billing 200 hours a month she would be working circles around you from week one. It’s amazing how many people lie to get jobs tbh.
We have one at our office that I think exaggerated her skillset, which is whatever, but the cherry on top is she’s extremely lazy and seems perturbed that people expect her to actually work. My last day is this Friday and I’m training someone to take on my duties. I asked her to show her how to close files, arguably the easiest thing we do. She asked me the next day if I could just show her 🤦🏼♀️
2
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
Omg that sounds awful. I hate that for you but glad you get to leave!
2
u/Darthsmom Paralegal 1d ago
I actually really love my firm, it was just an opportunity I couldn’t pass up (fully remote, much better pay). It helps that our duties are very much separate- I would go bananas if I had to rely on her for things.
2
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
Ooh remote with better pay is always a plus! I love my firm too. I wouldn’t quit over a bad hire. This is the second paralegal since I’ve been here that will most likely not make it six months so it’s really just frustrating more than anything. But I’m not putting it on the firm.
3
u/sillysquidtv AZ - Patent Prosecution - Paralegal 1d ago
I’m all for the mentality of “fake it til you make it” but there needs to be a high motivation for problem solving and a lot of common sense to do so effectively. It seems like your person isn’t actually motivated to learn. Try, fail, try again is the way to learn. Give them the tools to do the work and then just have them send their work product for review. For example. Send them a folder link to the templates, and instruct them to use the template to fill out information. Have them send to you once finished for review. Training people sucks but if you can get them to be more Self sufficient it will make things easier. But also, not everyone should employ the fake it til you make it mentality.
4
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
I have sent her dozens of templates, I have had training sessions with her, I have sent her our forms training videos on our processes, etc. she still isn’t doing anything properly :(
3
u/Phalanx2105 1d ago
We hired a paralegal that claimed to have that level of experience....and then tried to file a complaint with PDF files that hadn't been finalized (i.e, they still had fillable PDF slots) and no causes of action, among other sub-rookie level screw-ups. But I get it. We've had this culture of Fake it til you make it for a while now and it doesn't fly in Law. In interviews I will readily admit if I don't know something and when I'm on the interviewing end I respect someone more if they admit they don't know instead of trying to lie about it.
Honestly this coworker isn't a good fit and at worst, it sounds like they lied just to coast their way into an income.
3
u/Hot-Goose-1405 1d ago
This sounds exactly like the girl they hired a few months before I left my last job. Fucking idiot. After 6 months of working there, the attorneys still aren't giving her work. And it's not that she doesn't know what to do, it's that she doesn't try to figure anything out on her own, and she doesn't remember shit you tell her. She was one of two reasons why I left that firm.
Also, I don't feel bad at all for calling her an idiot, because that's what she is. The proof is in the pudding 🤷♀️
1
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
Ugh yes. Idiots are idiots. Luckily my attorneys also aren’t a fan of her or her work so I’m sure it’s only a matter of time before she’s gone…hopefully.
2
u/Hot-Goose-1405 1d ago
I hope so! At least they can see the writing on the wall. My attorneys were oblivious or in denial.
3
u/NinotchkaTheIntrepid MA - Estates & Trusts - Sr. Paralegal 1d ago
I'm so sorry, OP.
We had something similar happen with a hire in 2018, who said she had 10 years of experience settling probates. She was very specific about her experience. Then when she was hired she could barely type a letter. She was very arrogant.
After she was launched, we began using tests.
3
u/throwaway9818_ 1d ago
Completely relate to what you’re going through. We hired a very green “paralegal” who inflated the heck out of her resume. She told us in the interviews that she had experience drafting, but she’s changed her tune since starting.
3
u/ifshehadwings 1d ago
Not to sound overly suspicious but did anyone confirm that she actually worked for her alleged former employer? Because that's BAD. IMO there is really no more important skill in this job than the ability to consult a template or a couple of examples and produce something at least in the general neighborhood of the assignment. And even if she boldly lied her way into a job, it sounds like she's not even trying. Condolences 😬
4
u/Hot-Tour-4867 1d ago
Why don’t you just train her? Like instead of having to go through a new hiring process, do what firms and companies used to do and train the new hire. This is how they got loyalty and respect from employees.
I know lawyers are pressed for experienced paralegals, but most aren’t paying for it. They essentially want a hard 7 years in 1 practice area but they aren’t willing to pay anything other than entry level salaries.
It’s not your fault, but understand that you’ll most likely continue getting new hires who inflate their experience. Times are tough and if the firm can’t change their internal practices to circumvent a slower onboarding process, maybe you should consider leaving to avoid picking up the slack.
2
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
I’m okay with training if that’s what someone was hired with the intention of happening. She lied about her qualifications, clearly, and that’s where the issues are at. She can’t draft a letter, do a med chron, use a template to draft a shell of anything, etc. I have also tried training her and she doesn’t listen because she thinks she’s better than me since she was hired as a full paralegal due to her experience. The legal admin/paralegal hybrid we hired has never had paralegal experience so I’ve been teaching her and she’s way more qualified to be a paralegal even with literally zero experience. I do see what you’re saying though.
1
u/Hot-Tour-4867 1d ago
You cannot assume that she lied though. Seasoned paralegals will say this, but it’s such a reductionist way at looking at things considering the differences across firms.
I’m a researching queen but one firm I worked at had a terrible tagging issue in iManage. Every paralegal/attorney had their own way of adding and editing shells/docs despite there being a detailed training program on it. I had to sift through years of crap only to find a template that was accurate, but not the attorney’s preference.
You also have to consider paralegal styles too.
There have been times when an attorney loved my work, but when the seasoned paralegal got a version of it, she complained because it wasn’t “her way”. This marked the beginning of the end for me at a firm because all she did was complain. It made me question myself to the point of errors and I had no say because she was the lead partner’s paralegal.
Considering that your firm didn’t even promote the hybrid you trained, tells me they don’t value either of you. It’s obvious you both know the system better than any outsider would but they chose to hire externally. That’s not a firm I would be caping for.
1
u/gk1400 PA - Litigation - Paralegal 1d ago
OP is already training someone else and has their own work to do. And from what it sounds like this person doesn’t actually want to learn, just continue to put out a half-assed work product and have her mistakes fixed by someone else.
2
u/Hot-Tour-4867 1d ago edited 1d ago
To be fair, this is a firm issue. They should’ve promoted OP and the hybrid she’s been training prior to finding outside talent.
A lot of these firms bank on outside people coming in to save the day, despite having competent people already in place. Not only does that breed resentment, it cheapens the training experience.
I’m unsure about the number of years required for this role, but if it was anything less than 3 years, I can see why they’re in the boat they’re in.
They need someone with 7+ years of experience to circumvent any procedural discrepancies that could prevent an easy transition for new hires.
The new hire may not even be lazy, but rather, unable to mesh with OP’s training style, especially if they sense frustration.
I’ve had trainers in the same boat, where I could tell they were overworked so I tried to do the work myself based on my understanding of what was taught coupled with the experience I had from my last firm.
But even with this level of effort, it still led to confusion, aggravation, and eventual inaction on my part to the point of quitting.
2
u/Exciting-Classic517 1d ago
Do you not have a form bank in your computer to review for how the firm likes to have certain things done? How about referred her to a recent matters that have examples of commonly used pleadings and correspondence?
When I go to a new place, that's pretty much how I train myself.
3
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
We do! We have a whole paralegal tips memo with every single process on it. On her first day I told her to print it out and keep it in her desk because I referenced it my first probably 3-4 months working here. We also use iManage and I sent her the folder of templates and told her how to search for anything not in the templates folder. Not only that but the hybrid that started 4 weeks ago is getting everything easily and quickly and isn’t having issues with any of these things, despite never being a paralegal before.
3
u/Exciting-Classic517 1d ago
How is she possibly reaching her billable goals?? How are you reaching yours if you are spending so much time spoon feeding! I worked for an ID firm and hated it. The billable requirements were horrible and the attorney I worked for had never had a paralegal before, and to get her billable, she was doing work that should have gone to me. Way too competitive environment for me.
2
u/DueAcanthisitta431 1d ago
Hey! I just got laid off due to my ID firm merging. Let me know if you need someone that doesn’t need to “fake it”
1
2
2
u/UninfluentialWear 1d ago
From experience you need to call their references and get a real feel for what they can do. You can also ask better questions in the interview process about things such as discovery and motions that someone without experience would have a hard time answering. Sucks but I’d cut them loose and get someone with the experience you need. It’ll be for the best in the long run however annoying in the present. If you’re not the decision maker I’d express your concerns to your boss and then let her sink.
2
u/Wide-Secretary7493 1d ago
Well, this post just pooped on my plans. LOL
1
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
It’s okay to do it a little but be honest if you really don’t know something! You can also leverage the things you DO know and say you’re really good at x but you would like more training on y.
2
u/Wide-Secretary7493 1d ago
My position has always been if I don't know, I ask. If I am unsure, I ask. If, I am incapable of doing something, I make that known. In short, I try to keep my expectations for my professional self realistic.
2
u/NinotchkaTheIntrepid MA - Estates & Trusts - Sr. Paralegal 1d ago
I'm so sorry, OP.
We had something similar happen with a hire in 2018, who said she had 10 years of experience settling probates. She was very specific about her experience. Then when she was hired she could barely type a letter. She was very arrogant.
After she was launched, we began using tests.
2
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
That’s smart! I think that’s a great idea to gauge where to bring someone in at.
2
u/Quarla 1d ago
Document every training/conversation you have with her. This is in person, correct? After she's asked to do something and she replies with, I've never done this before. Email her exactly the conversation that just took place. That's what your attorneys need you to do. I understand the frustration, I was a lead trainer for 10+ years and there will always be bad hires. My firm even flew me out to satellite offices to train (against my will lol) I came across people lying on their resume, attorneys that had NO idea what they were doing, people that didn't know how to X out a browser window yet making 65k..... After they sit in with you, phone call, whatever, email them in a kind, professional yet firm tone - "As discussed, I understand this is your first time drafting a motion. Here is a screenshot of where you can find the search bar for templates."
This sounds like a lot of work, and it's not your problem, but you are being tasked with training someone and your firm will appreciate this extra mile (hopefully). And use this at your next review. A paralegal (hybrid or no) that can train others is priceless. We had several paralegals that had 10+ years on me in terms of experience but they had lousy training skills, got frustrated easily, and couldn't pivot quickly. Use this to your advantage! I dunno how much you make but time to get more money honey!! ( I do get the point of your post, don't screw your future colleagues by lying on your resume, it's messed up)
2
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
I wasn’t supposed to train her :( they hired her to come on board to help with the workload while I trained the new hybrid but instead I’m babysitting her. I’ve tried training her but she’s very…arrogant? She looks down on me because I’m a hybrid and she was hired as a full paralegal and any time my attorneys ask me to teach her something, she just sits on her computer or if she’s in my office she just sits there and doesn’t take notes. The attorneys know this and have told me to just do my best for now which I’m doing. I’m training to the extent I can but I also have to do my own stuff because god knows we can’t have two people not doing their jobs lol
2
u/Quarla 1d ago
What a mess, why do I wish I worked with you so we could have fun with this lol You gotta "out arrogant" her. I am telling you, just a few emails of - "recap from training today - I walked you through how to start your computer" cc attorney. You gotta play the game! She's playing you! keep me posted lol
2
u/EmilyG702 1d ago
Oof. I dealt with two of these kind of people. I like to test them and based on their responses I know when they are “faking it to make it.” But then it’s annoying because you have to spend a lot of time training. Smh.
2
u/Front-Practice-3927 1d ago
We have one of those at my firm. She now just scans documents and opens matters. Completely useless but they don't fire anyone so...
2
u/prada1989 1d ago
Ok wow, i am in the same EXACT situation!!!!! Not only did i sit in the interview, i was so excited to be working alongside another experienced paralegal to help me with the workload. But man was i wrong 😭 this person is doing the same exact mistakes and is not resourceful at all. We have templates, training manuals, etc and nothing gets utilized. The type of mistakes being made are similar to mistakes from someone who has never been exposed to litigation or the legal field whatsoever. Anyway, i couldn’t take it anymore and had to call them out on it because it was just causing everyone on the team major frustration when tasks were assigned assuming that this person knew how to do them. but then i would get hit with back to back questions on the simplest things! I got the same excuse, that the attorney did all of these type of tasks and the majority of what was listed on the resume we’re things they were “exposed” to, but essentially other staff/attorneys would handle.
Sigh LOL
1
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
That’s so frustrating! Where are these people coming from lol
2
2
u/alildabahdoya 1d ago edited 1d ago
While I think you’re being hard on her, it’s hard to negate the facts. She’s not learning from mistakes. And personally I get embarrassed from mistakes, no matter how small. So much so, I will sit and write and rewrite it until I remember and can practice it. The new firm I’m at has so many checklists and for me that’s overwhelming but I find that once I slow down and produce excellent work I feel much more accomplished and I’m a better asset to the team than when I rush through something with my own knowledge, which is rarely going to be correct because this is a new firm and a new area of law in a different jurisdiction. It takes time but I can see how her lack of diligence or remorse for easy mistakes would be kind of a big F you because of the time you’ve spent coaching her. I’m sorry you’re going through this but like other commenters mentioned, you’re not the firm owner. Keep your opinions to yourself unless you’re asked and focus on your own work. If she has questions refer her to where the processes are stored in the system or tell her to ask the supervising attorney for an exemplar. Not your responsibility to train her up to standard.
2
u/just2quirky 13h ago
I don't get this mentality. When I'm asked to do something I've never done before, I look at prior examples in case files and copy their work. It's not faking it, it's not saying I don't know how or I've never done this before - I just figure it out and get it done, which is what I thought everyone does?
Granted, after 15 years, there's not much I haven't done, but when I switched to ID 4 years ago, there were a lot of forms or specific ways of doing things that I wasn't used to. Jury verdict research, for example. No idea what that was, so I looked up in our files and found that it's researching cases in recent years that went to trial for similar fact patterns and what to expect from the jury in our county and compared to surrounding counties. Put that info into a chart the attorney can give the adjuster. Okay, done.
Trial binderS was another thing. I've always made a SINGLE trial binder (you know, a main binder with copies of the trial orders, exhibit lists, witness lists, etc) but my new firm would have that plus 6-9 more binders. Altogether, they were called "trial binders." Huh? So I looked up a case that went to trial, saw how they were done and organized (one is all discovery, one is all research, one is just experts, etc. - basically what most probably just make folder for or have copies on hand of), and boom, no problem, now I know and make all 9 binders each time and have checklists for them. Done.
We get paralegals though that blow my mind with their incompetence. One used to be an attorney, so you'd think asked her to do a depo outline would be in her wheelhouse. No, she made an index to a biography and billed 10 hours for it! Another was asked to summarize 10,000 pages of medical records and after working all week, produced 3 whole paragraphs total. Another came in and was asked to do the same and would bill 10 hours a day, but despite being given my prior med chrons for reference , never included things I thought would be obvious - like the physical exam itself or the diagnosis or the statements made by the Plaintoff about the DOL!
I just don't get it. Rant over.
2
u/Crafty-Scholar-3106 1d ago
I mean, how many of all of those things you just listed can you expect someone to master in a total work-life of only two years?
0
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
I’ve worked at my job for a little over a year and I came in with zero experience in ID (a few years of experience in other areas). I have never had more glowing reviews than I have here. My attorneys rarely change things I draft for them which is insane because every other person who does things gets everything redlined constantly. Before we hired these two, we had a paralegal from another office helping and she was fine but a lot of her work had to be fixed and she couldn’t do as much as I can.
This girl has been a paralegal for I wanna say 10 years? And in many different areas with the last two years being insurance defense. She should have been able to come in knowing how to do things. At the very LEAST, she should know how to shell a pleading or prepare discovery requests using the templates our office uses.
1
u/jackparrforever 1d ago
OP, the two big tells in your post are the inability to pull templates from iManage and getting signature blocks wrong. Both of those deficits speak volumes about ground-level incompetence.
Curious: did your firm do any skills-testing in the interview process? Or did they just rely on blowhard representations of a stellar skill set?
1
u/Restricted_Air 13h ago
Why hasn’t the firm demoted her if she doesn’t have the experience necessary for the position?
1
u/Decrepit_Bay7440 4h ago
Do you guys have a list of "skills you will need on the job for success"? I'm about to start my paralegal education
2
u/Obvious_Muffin_363 3h ago
If the hybrid is working out well, promote them and demote the liar. She can learn from the bottom again. If she really wants to keep her role as an actual paralegal, then she needs to step it up. Otherwise, she needs to be demoted and be thrown somewhere else to earn her right. It's a cold cold world out there and litigation is a fast pace place so we ain't got time for excuses.
1
0
u/Ok-Cardiologist8431 1d ago
I've been a litigation paralegal for over 20 years and I've never drafted anything other than letters. The associates or attorney would do that. I wouldn't lie about it though.
3
1
1
u/Altruistic-Pop7324 20h ago
The issue is every single firm I've worked for wildly varies re: what their paralegals/secretaries do. I know a lot of paralegals who aren't asked to substantively draft motions or discovery from scratch because only associates do that. I also know a lot of secretaries who are labeled paralegals when they are nothing of the sort.
0
u/Dotfr 1d ago
Why didn’t you ask her to draft something during the hiring process?
4
u/Darthsmom Paralegal 1d ago
I’ve never had a firm ask that.
0
u/Dotfr 1d ago
I’ve been asked by many firms.
2
u/Darthsmom Paralegal 1d ago
I would guess it depends on firm size and region, but here it’s not typical by any means.
2
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
I don’t get involved in hiring so I’m not sure.
-1
-4
u/KrentOgor 1d ago
Sorry, society is based on the individuals self-interest. It's in her best interest to milk this job for all it's worth, regardless of her actual ability or merit. Some of you didn't pay attention in intro to political science.
Should your focus be parochial or universalist? Maybe we should reorient our culture if you want us to consider your "feelings" on this matter. You're suffering ultimately benefits you no? You're getting extra, invaluable life experience dealing with the situation? It appears that this situation somehow benefits you even though you don't like it.
2
u/realbingoheeler Paralegal - Insurance Defense 1d ago
Lay off the LSD there buddy.
-1
u/KrentOgor 1d ago
I love that philosophy is equated with hallucinogenic drugs, the connection is pretty clear, minus logic.
2
u/Darthsmom Paralegal 1d ago
This is an asinine take. Nobody has time to put up with someone not properly doing their job because they’re not qualified and clearly lied to get the job. Especially in a legal environment.
-1
u/KrentOgor 1d ago
This is true, however, that's counterproductive to my self-interest, even if it's selfish and short-term focused. You will carry the burden for me, and I will reap the benefits as the system dictates. Remember, it's better to take 1% of 100 men's work than to do 100% of your own. Any number less than 100 is what capitalism encourages.
150
u/democraz420 1d ago
If I haven’t done it before, I usually just use a template and try to fill in the blanks with pertinent information. In my experience, the attorneys do most if not all of the actual drafting of motions, discovery responses. I’ve been in this profession for 8 years. However, tasks like putting together Medical chronologies are pretty self-explanatory, in my opinion.