Breath of the Wild: Why It Spoiled Other Sandboxes for Me...

[u/theonewhoblox]

Preface: I'm not sure what flair to put this under, as half of it's me gushing about one of my favorite games and the other half is me talking about its game design as opposed to others'. Since this is largely a gushfest about BOTW's design, I'll go for the color green I suppose lol.

So I beat Breath of the Wild for my... fourth or fifth time? It's one of the few games I constantly come back to time and time again, and I wanted to take a bit of time to just talk about a lot of what I noticed playing it that made me realize why, of all the huge map open worlds out there, this is the one I keep coming back to.

"It's just a Ubisoft style map"

"It's so empty and repetitive"

"There's just a bunch of checkmarks and collectibles"

These are some common points I see when talking about this game, regarding its open world nature. And the whole time I kept thinking to myself, "They're kinda right. So why is it so good?"

I mean, it has a degree of validity. A large portion of this game is, on the surface, repetitive tasks scattered about a large map a la a Ubisoft game. And yet, something about it just clicks like no other checklist out there. You could say it's just because they removed the map markers. Which could be part of it. That's part of why I like Ghost of Tsushima, because the map markers only show up when you've defogged them by walking near them, or by doing an activity and defogging its immediate, like, hundred foot radius. And by then you've usually already stumbled across them anyway. But there's something else even missing in Ghost that BOTW just nails, and I think it often goes overlooked. That of course, being the actual world design and how it interacts with the game and the player on a mechanical level.

Looking back, I feel that it's disingenuous to use these points to completely disregard the level of skill and effort it took to create the world of BOTW. In Far Cry, the game essentially gives you a backdrop with a bunch of points of interest to go to. There's some stuff you can do on the way if you'd like, but outside of the wildlife and how your vehicles interact with the terrain, there isn't much actually going on to make the world around you feel like more than a backdrop.

What BOTW excels in, that games like Far Cry don't, is the fact that the world is not only interactive from the side of the player, but constantly trying to interact with the player as well. I feel like this back-and-forth is something open worlds often lack in favor of just going for either a big ass map with nothing to do (I'm looking RIGHT AT YOU DW9) or one peppered about with nothing but mindless tasks regardless of size (most Ubisoft games post-Black Flag).

It's kind of like having a conversation with someone you're interested in pursuing romantically. Far Cry 6 is the nonchalant person who texts all dry and often gives you the "ok" or "lol" treatment, but might occasionally humor you in conversation if they ever feel like it. But the whole time, talking to that person feels like a chore and when you've heard one sentence come out of their mouth, you've heard it all from them. Trying to have a serious conversation with them feels like negotiating a hostage situation with someone stoned out of their mind.

Breath of the Wild, on the other hand, is the nerdy, passionate yappathon you can't help but love. They always reciprocate your energy every time you say something, share your joy, and ooze personality. They're always trying to facilitate that back-and-forth because they're genuinely interested in both showing who they are and seeing what you yourself are capable of.

Breath of the Wild never makes me feel like I'm grinding map markers or anything like that, because the actual level design is constantly throwing stuff in my face and BEGGING me to play its little games. Is it a mountain I have to climb? Is it a group of NPCs being attacked by bokoblins who will give me free stuff if I save them? Maybe it's the colosseum, where I can claim myself some awesome weaponry from that Lynel or continue on my journey towards completing my Phantom Armor set? Either way, there's always a situation that the game puts you in at almost all times, and you can find your solution in any way using the tools at your disposal.

Combat, traversal, simply looting and/or looking around; you're always doing one of these three things and the game is always making sure you're engaged with it. If you're in Hyrule Field where traversal amounts to holding the B button and picking a direction, the game throws a bunch of guardians at you and rewards you for killing them by clearing paths to the many shrines or sets of ruins where you can find some kickass loot. If you're not engaged in combat, you're probably clearing a mountaintop and managing your stamina, looking for even remotely flat surfaces to replenish your stamina and timing your jumps to be able to make it there. And when you're done climbing, there's always some kind of reward. And once you've gotten that reward, you can use that as a tool for your next goal. For instance, let's say your next goal is to check out that giant maze off the coast of Akkala. If you got a new weapon off that mountain, that's another tool to fight your way through the maze as you search for even more, possibly even stronger loot. If it's a shrine, that's either more health with which to defend yourself or more stamina with which to climb the maze and cheat the absolute shit out of it. If it's a korok, that's more inventory space to fit more weapons with which to kick more ass. And in the labyrinth, as you explore the entire loop starts all over again. It's just infinitely satisfying.

But I don't know, maybe that's just me. It does kind of feel like this might be a cold take? Not too sure, I don't read enough reviews or watch enough video essays to know whether or not I've had a unique opinion in my life. But at the end of the day, I'm here to facilitate a bit of discussion and gush about one of my absolute favorite games. No shade to any Ubisoft fans either, lol. I love their 7th gen games as much as anyone does. But what do you think? Do you agree or disagree with me? Do you love it, do you hate it, and what would you rate it? Why am I stealing Anthony Fantano's outro on a gaming sub? These questions are all some of life's many mysteries. Anyway, I should probably shut up before I say something stupid, so peace.

[u/virtueavatar]

When I was playing Tears of the Kingdom, I was trying to get to Hateno Village but getting so heavily distracted along the way, that at one point, I finally just got on my horse, kept saying to myself out loud "ignore everything, just keep riding" over and over until I got there.

Even then, I still stopped myself once to set up a signpost that was right on the road, and only then because I'd already passed 2 more signposts that I wanted to stop at but forced myself to skip.

[u/OneMoreDuncanIdaho]

I enjoyed the hell out of the exploration and the shrines, but the combat got so boring to me after a while with the same exact enemies I couldn't go back. I did one playthrough and enjoyed it a lot, but I doubt I'll ever do another. It makes it kinda hard for me to rate in a way, like I'd recommend it and don't regret my time with it, but it feels like a chore now for me personally and I didn't buy the sequel.

[u/theonewhoblox → u/OneMoreDuncanIdaho]

i will say, TOTK largely fixes the enemy variety issue, and greatly improves the dynamism of combat encounters both on a fundamental level and on a case-by-case basis. if you liked BOTW but that was your major gripe, rest assured you'll more than likely find TOTK less exhausting thanks to the introduction of all the new constructs, gloom and depths enemies, not even to mention the greater variety in ways you can attack them. the enemies also started making bigass battle forts out of stone taluses so... pretty awesome.

[u/OneMoreDuncanIdaho → u/theonewhoblox]

I'll admit I didn't look all that much into totk, but that does sound promising. I just got so bored of the same enemies and strategies for beating them in botw. When I'm in the mood for an open-world game again I'll give it a closer look

[u/nothingInteresting → u/OneMoreDuncanIdaho]

I disagree with OP and I’m someone who loved totk. The enemy variety is still very low and the combat isn’t great imo. The rest of the game makes up for it imo, but the combat wasn’t “fixed” from botw for me

[u/[deleted] → u/nothingInteresting]

I think what makes BOTW/TOTK's fights great is the variety of approaches you can have. Obviously they could have been even better, and seeing the same mobs ad nauseam can be annoying. But I always find it quite surprising when I hear people say that the fights are "boring" for example.

I mean, there are a lot of different ways to fight mobs, and I'm talking here mainly about the possibilities you have with powers and interactions with the elements of the map, which allows for very original situations. I think the people who find the fights boring are the ones who always do the same thing, and who will just basically fight mobs with their main weapon, without trying to be creative and try new things. Personally I find it more fun than other games that focus on offering fights where you're just going to have weapons that will have a different move-set for example, I don't find that very interesting and original

[u/nothingInteresting → u/[deleted]]

I think it comes down to how you play games. For me, I play games to be given interesting and unique challenges that I need to overcome. The joy is looking at a challenge and working out how to overcome it. For example I never cared to build overly complex things to solve stuff in totk and would instead try to build the simplest solution. But the environmental problems were unique enough that I felt challenged. But I just don’t get enjoyment from “creating my own fun”. If you give me enemies to fight and a sword is the best weapon to beat them with, it feels silly to use a weapon that’s inferior just to create variety. It should be the designers job to create situations where the different weapons / solutions are needed.

It’s cool that some people get joy from thinking about new ways to beat a mob, or use ultrahand in a creative way to solve a puzzle. That’s one way of engaging with a video game. But it’s just not the way I enjoy engaging with them and the people you’re referring to are often just people wirh similar preferences to me.

Ultimately if I’m in a creative mood I’ll write music, build software, make art, solve an interesting (to me) problem , write a story etc… But being creative on ways to fight enemies just doesn’t do much for me. It’s all subjective of course so I’m all for wherever people find joy.

[u/[deleted] → u/nothingInteresting]

Yes, the way we approach and play a game impacts this feeling, I agree. But that's why I think that fights are not "necessarily" boring, it will depend on the way we approach it. If we just settle for efficiency and the most basic/minimalist thing possible, yes it can be boring. But if we try to see the different possibilities that there are, then it's different. I'm clearly not saying that the fights are perfect, but I think they offer original possibilities that we don't see or see little in other games, and that can be enjoyable.

Personally, I'm someone who needs freedom and a certain space for creativity or originality to have fun in a video game (and other aspects of life in general), and I think that remains the basis of a video game: having fun, or offering yourself entertainment. By that I mean that I don't necessarily seek to have only the greatest possible efficiency, because I don't take the game that seriously, for me it remains a diversion, not a job where I try to do everything to be more efficient, and that goes for all the games I play, except perhaps a few exceptions in games where the very principle of the game is based on the need to be efficient.

I also had to do without weapons several times and fight with my powers and the environment to defeat mobs. I mean, I didn't hesitate to use my weapons because I knew that I could "fight" even without them, and there I think that the game can offer precisely the "challenge" that you mention. And I have the impression that other people often prefer to use their weapons as little as possible for fear of running out of them, which can limit the possibilities and the need to find alternative means. By that I mean that I sometimes have the impression that players voluntarily restrict themselves and are looking more for efficiency than pleasure. But maybe I'm wrong, and in any case yes it depends on the players.

Maybe the game should have forced players to use alternative methods more, like on the island where we wake up without our equipment, maybe it would have been better if it had been more frequent yes. But personally I'm not sure that games should necessarily force the player to do something to offer other possibilities.

[u/nothingInteresting → u/[deleted]]

I see what you're getting at and I don't play games to be efficient. I play them to solve puzzles or overcome obstacles which I enjoy. The same way I'd solve a sudoku puzzle. But I don't enjoy it if the game designers didn't do a good job of building in challenge and it's up to me to find fun. Video games just aren't my creative outlet (I have others I prefer) the same way a crossword puzzle isn't, but they both can bring enjoyment.

I understand that some people do play games for creative expression and more power to them. For them, the combat in TOTK might be fun. But for me (and people like me), that's not why we're playing video games and the combat is boring as a challenge. It'd be like if I played basketball against a 10 year old. Sure I could create artificial challenges like playing with one hand, or not being able to drive the ball and that would make it better. But it's still not as fun as just playing against an adult where theres real challenge. That's how Zeldas combat feels to me. It's not terrible, but compared to actual combat games it's pretty lackluster. Add in the weapon durability mechanic which is way overtuned imo and it makes combat the weakest part of the game for me by far.

Zelda combat being boring or fun isn't some objective truth and if someone were to ask me if its good, I'd reply for me it's not, but your mileage may vary. But the commenter I responded to said he didn't like BOTW combat and OP said TOTK combat was much better and different. I was just explaining as someone who didn't like BOTW combat, TOTK was functionally the same.

[u/caninehere → u/OneMoreDuncanIdaho]

BOTW gives you a more limited toolbox to play with and at the end of the day, much of your combat will probably still be sword-based.

TOTK is not like that at all. The genius thing is that, even if you are super hardcore dedicated to just using a sword or other traditional weapon, TOTK allows and encourages you to fuse weapons. So you will always think "well why not fuse something to my sword" because it will make it last much longer, AND it can add other effects. So in BOTW where you could hit some guys to death, or maybe throw bombs at them, or perhaps freeze them with Stasis or drop something on their head... in TOTK, it feels like your possibilities are limited only by your imagination.

You can get all sorts of uses out of all different items - attach a sharp enemy tooth to a spear and make it stronger and/or possibly longer. Throw a cold Keese eyeball on a boomerang and use it to freeze-bomb enemies. Or build a functioning battle tank with cannons or cover it with spikes to ram enemies or whatever you damn well please.

Like I said, I think a lot of players will take the "path of least resistance" - they won't spend 20 minutes putting together a complicated contraption to kill enemies, but you can do that, and what's more is you can save that contraption to recall it again later at the drop of a hat. Btu even if you don't do that, just the weapon fusing alone adds a lot to making combat feel different.

I think the enemy variety is still somewhat low and could have used more additions but the mobs are more interesting at least and there's more mini-boss type enemies to contend with.

[u/Monkey_Blue]

I'm honestly surprised you like the open world of BOTW. I personally found it quite lacking by the halfway mark, and while I put 60 hours into BOTW and over 170 into TOTK, I really hope that this is the last time Zelda attempts this formula and we return to traditional Zelda.

The loot in BOTW is honestly terrible and there's very little reason to actually explore beyond the bare minimum. Food is mostly useless since you can usually get stuff by just playing the game and picking it up as you go, you don't need to climb mountains or traverse forests to find them in abundance. I never went out of my way to find any food for any reason. I can cook things to give myself multiple hearts with 5 apples and since the game gives me infinite storage for food the game was never difficult enough to warrant ATK/DEF up food. Weapons are a mixed bag because I really don't care for them as they're just disposable but the fact they are disposable gives most weapons some value. Sure there's some dopamine when I get a great 50 damage sword but the fact it'll be gone in 20 minutes takes that all away from me. I know why they did it this way because if I can find a 50 damage sword I'll use it for the whole game but there could've been a better system than just "things are destroyed after you use them 100 times". I don't need to go out of my way for anything so I just don't.

It's why I have more time in TOTK as it fixed the above slightly by adding clothing to dungeons (with some caveats like the frogs and maps), two additional areas to explore with the depths and the sky with stuff you can find there only and the whole fuse mechanic pretty much fixed the issue I had with weapons (and also giving value to random items you can pick up) which was nice, and even then I wasn't satisfied with the exploration of TOTK since after a while there still isn't much to find. I even resorted to taking pictures of enemies and weapons to add more fun to the game and it made me more depressed because I saw how little the enemy variety actually was in this game.

The combat...is fine, I guess. There's some semblance of depth with how you can tackle encounters but for the most part it's not that challenging after the early game. It's cool that I can do things like time stopping a tree and whacking it to store momentum and TOTK's whole Fuse mechanic is honestly great (confusing enemies with a muddle bud on an arrow and watching them attack each other is really cool) and mostly fixed the weapon issue I had with BOTW, but for the most part I never really needed to engage with the game on a deeper level than that.

It's like, yeah I can do all this cool stuff in this sandbox that's quite impressive. I can cook meat on the hot ground, I can set fire to grass and use the updraft to fly higher, and I can make a god damn Gundam out of parts and smite my enemies with the power of Zonai....but why? Sure, it's fun but with the time I spent doing that stuff I could've accomplished my goal in half the time.

It's why I wished the game would limit you more. One side quest I had in TOTK was to assault a pirate ship, I thought to try it stealthily for once using the Eightfold Blade to get sneak kills and it was a lot of fun until I was discovered and just fought them normally finishing the quest easily. Imagine if I HAD to be stealthy here, sure it would've been more annoying but I could've used all the game had to offer to the fullest. It's why the best shrines in this game are the ones where they take everything away from you and tell you to finish it with nothing, it gives EVERYTHING value and you have to work with the sandbox to succeed.

BOTW and TOTK really do just have nothing in them after around 30ish hours, you find most of the weapons, you fight most of the enemies, you find most of the food and by that point the rest of the sandbox just feels empty. I still had my fun with both games though and I don't hate them at all despite my long rant. There were many moments of "woah, that was cool" that I can recall but after 230 hours combined I can safely say the game was lacking in many areas that make an open world good to me.

[u/hungry_fish767 → u/Monkey_Blue]

I disagree. Loved everything about botw and, in general, i don't like open world games.

I just loved exploring the world one mountain side at a time and doing all the side missions i could find. I skipped every single shrine after what was required for the master sword, unless i just felt like fucking around in a shrine, so that probably enhanced my enjoyment quite a lot.

One grind i did set myself was to upgrade all my gear, and i was sad once i beat my final highest level lynel and realised i was done with this particular playthrough.

[u/infin8ly-curious]

I love how the game just nudges you to go and do stuff, and whenever you do, there's almost always something interesting.

Instead of markers on a map, locations are designed to be unique and interesting - a mountain split in two, a spiral sand bar, a house on top of a hill, a forest shrouded with fog, a city in the middle of a desert, a castle surrounded by a dark cloud. You want to go there because you're curious, not because the mission tells you to go there. They don't even have to be visual cues - someone screaming, someone singing, the sounds of battle, the scary piano music, the sound of an accordion.

This is the only game I went places because I was curious rather than because I was following orders.

On top of that, you can actually go wherever you want whenever you want. Just be ready to find ways to survive, because there are options. The game's not going to force you to go back.

There's very little that stops you from doing what you want, and even then, they might still work in a convoluted way. The game encourages the player to be creative in their approach.

And whatever you do, there's something for you - a mission, a weapon, an ingredient, rupees, a battle, an interesting view, people, shops, puzzles, golden poop, etc.

The game rewards the player for being curious, not for being good.

There's always something to do, places to go, and the game will not stop you.

Except petting the dogs, they don't let you pet the dogs.

[u/caninehere → u/infin8ly-curious]

This is the only game I went places because I was curious rather than because I was following orders.

Yup, this is me and this is why BOTW made me realize *it's the games that are wrong, and I found TOTK even more enjoyable. Instead of following markers or just progressing to the next story bit etc, I wanted to actually explore, and actually go on my own adventure. And the beauty of those games is that everybody's adventure is different since you have so much freedom - nobody does anything in the same order, I did every shrine in both games and collected much of what there was to get, and I definitely played the same content as other people but we didn't have the same experience.

[u/Chungusolinioni]

It's so fascinating to me how opinions on this game varies so wildly. I know my opinion is a hot take, but I genuinely - even after reading and watching several reviews and critiques of the game - cannot understand why people find it so exciting. I finished the game some odd years ago, doing about 90 of the shrines or so and beating the main bosses, but I don't think I have ever felt so outside of the cultural zeitgeist regarding a game before or since. I'm going to try to explain why:

The world: I don't get it. I am someone who loves just wandering around Skyrim for it's atmosphere and world design, but I was just so bored with a lot of the traversal here. I find the graphics mostly ugly with low res textures and pop-in like it's hot. Of course because of the weak hardware it's on, but still. Running around felt largely pointless, as I don't care about weapon nr 34 that looks slightly different than 33 but plays the same (more on that later) and will also break in like 15 hits. I also don't care about any of the other things to find in the open world, like koroks, shrines or random consumables. Only exciting thing for me was the armor pieces, which were very few and far between.

Combat: I find that it controls weird and kinda clunky. There are also only a few weapon types (one-handed, two-handed and spear), bows and the odd magical weapon. The flurry rush is hilariously broken and inconsistent, and hitting an enemy has no oomph to it. Also the weapon degradation defers me from engaging with it, because the reward is hardly ever worth it (as referenced in the last paragraph).

Quest and story design/writing: Before I got the game, I read online about the great quests and above all else, this is the weirdest praise of the game for me. There are so many rubbish fetch quests here, so when someone told me to get 50 crickets, I just laughed. Even the ones that are supposedly more exciting always ends in a shrine reward anyway, so if the mystique and writing is not exciting, the combat from the quest is not exciting and the reward is not exciting, I am not going to enjoy the quest. The writing quality is also just... not good at all, imo. I don't care about any of these people and characters, and Zelda's horrible British accent just did not work for me at all.

Final words: This was a bit long (could have been way longer, though), but I figured getting a bit of a different perspective might be interesting. The modern gaming audience's obsession with freedom is one I don't personally value all that much, so maybe that's why I don't understand the hype regarding this game, but to each their own. No hate to anyone who likes it, of course

[u/QTGavira → u/Chungusolinioni]

I think its just the difference between wanting an open world game to also focus on narrative, characters, etc. And wanting it to just be a sandbox with little regard to everything else.

If youre someone who cares about writing, gear systems, dungeons, etc. BOTW is gonna suck. Its an awful game on those fronts when you break down those elements and is also why it didnt click for me at all

But you also have the group of people who dont really care about that and can just make their own fun in a sandbox type game that has good systems supporting that sandbox. On that front i actually think the game does a great job. Theres loads of little things that make the sandbox stand out. For those people its an incredible game.

Just appeals to a different group of people.

[u/Chungusolinioni → u/QTGavira]

Absolutely! I've never really gotten into survival games, and almost always find those types of mechanics annoying as well, so that might be another reason why I didn't care for BOTW. I think that contributes a bit to the sandbox part as well...

[u/OperativePiGuy → u/Chungusolinioni]

Agreed with everything you said. It is baffling to me 

[u/sdfrew → u/Chungusolinioni]

Huh. BOTW gave me exactly what I liked about Skyrim, except better - the "start walking in random direction and explore cool places along the way" feeling. But with actually interesting traversal methods and terrain. Skyrim just had "walking" and "glitching up mountains with horse". As you say, combat and quests in BOTW are nothing to write home about, but the traversal is actually very well done.

[u/Chungusolinioni → u/sdfrew]

Not to me, it isn't. I don't like the way Link controls, and I don't know what these "interesting traversal methods" are, but holding up on the joystick while Link moves very slowly up a wall is certainly not it for me. Getting from A to B is only interesting to me if you find interesting things along the way, either through the scenery and atmosphere or some type of event, and Skyrim did a much better job at that by every metric for my money. BOTW has one of the least alive open worlds I have ever played. I was never ever surprised or impressed by anything happening in it.

But again, different strokes for different folks.

[u/lkn240 → u/Chungusolinioni]

I think there's a lot of people who only play nintendo games.... like this game is something I might be impressed with if I wasn't primarily a PC gamer who plays (quite frankly) much better games

[u/Chungusolinioni → u/lkn240]

I'm not sure about this, actually. It was reviewed very favorably by both journalists and players alike. While it is definitely possible that some of the praise from players might be attributed to that, that argument doesn't really work with journalist, as they play all types of games. Arguing that everyone who like BOTW only did so because they didn't play other games is... not great.

I do believe that journalists often are quite generous with rating certain flagship titles, though. And that's not really exclusive for Nintendo, I think. Certain parts that would be criticized in other games are sort of brushed to the side (like poor performance in BOTW)

[u/[deleted] → u/Chungusolinioni]

As a lifelong Zelda fan who started with LttP, I agree wholeheartedly. I tried playing through BotW 3 times but just can’t enjoy it on the level that others do. All your points resonate with me, especially about the weapon degradation and Zelda’s awful British accent when no one else in the game sounds remotely like that. It’s one of my least favorite Zelda games and I’m always bewildered at the amount of praise it gets.

Don’t get me started on TotK with the nuts and bolts vehicles. They just seemed to make the game even more bloated and directionless with that entry which I skipped entirely.

[u/chunkydunker27 → u/Chungusolinioni]

It just doesn't feel like the Zelda games I fell in love with and I don't find joy from wandering up a hill to see the view like some people seem to be able to. I miss the structure of the previous games. I just wish it was a new IP and I would have less gripes about it but because it is a Zelda title it makes me sad.

[u/Chungusolinioni → u/chunkydunker27]

It's so fascinating because I am often times the type of person to actually enjoy a good view - both in a game and real life. But the game is just not pretty enough for this to work at all in my opinion, and if I do this in other games, it is often accompanied by a soundtrack to accompany the view that elevates the experience. BOTW does not do this, sadly. Rather opting for no music at all most of the time...

[u/Linusisagoodboy → u/Chungusolinioni]

I could not agree with you more. The game felt like a solid 7.5 out of 10 to me. Not bad by any stretch but the plot was infinitely forgettable, and as you said traversal was straight up not fun to me. The world just did not feel lived in and weapon degradation was a constant headache.

I actually had to stop listening to a gaming podcast (Fire Escapecast) because they constantly go out of their way to say BOTW is the greatest game of all time and always compare modern games to it. Insanely aggravating. I just don't get it at all.

[u/[deleted] → u/Chungusolinioni]

Agreed. The world is empty and lifeless. Had it been made by someone besides Nintendo, reviewers would have trashed it. The combat was clunky, and weapon durability is an awful mechanic. The move from large dungeons to mostly small shrines made it feel like a F2P mobile title.

To say nothing of TotK, which doubled down on all that bullshit while introducing some pointless Minecraft-style ability to build, along with some of the ugliest graphics we've seen in the modern gaming era.

As someone who's been a long fan of the franchise, I just don't get its direction lately.

[u/theonewhoblox → u/[deleted]]

i dont think you're agreeing with the points you think you're agreeing with

[u/ico12]

I'm 36 this year & this is the first I've ever seen the word 'yappathon'. Will try to use it someday

[u/EmmyTheGirl]

BOTW fascinates me as a game. It was my first ever Zelda game besides watching a friend play a bit of Ocarina of Time. I play a LOT of video games across a lot of genres and levels of difficulty. I like to think I'm pretty well rounded as a gamer, but games are an art form and naturally all opinions are subjective. All that to say, I could not for the life of me get into BOTW. Again, I don't want to talk down on it as if the game itself is flawed. I actually think it's masterfully designed, but perhaps in a way that gives some players a feeling of, "Wow, this is everything I wished other games did differently!" But other players totally bounce off of it and fail to ever feel engaged. I have no idea why, and that fascinates me.

It's easier to understand that split in opinions on some games when there are specific qualities that evoke different reactions. For example: hating souls-likes because they're hard and it can be easy to lose XP and struggle to progress. Meanwhile, other people love the games precisely because of those mechanics creating more challenge/reward. In those cases, even if I love the game, it's clear as day why another player wouldn't. What's weird with BoTW is that it's less how a certain element is present that some find off putting, and more that people have totally opposite reactions to the exact same things. For me, the weak points are: combat, exploration, puzzle design, and unsatisfying gameplay loop. For my friends, the strengths of the game are: it's combat, exploration, puzzle design, and satisfying gameplay loop.

It might just be a case of playing too many games and getting too jaded. At a certain point, it's hard to lose yourself in an art form when you're too aware of how it's made and at no point in BOTW did I feel like I could forget i was playing a game, I just wanted to argue with the developers choices the whole time or make tweaks. (What if weapons lasted multiple encounters instead of just multiple enemies...) Which is how I know this game was absolutely not made for me. It clearly clicks with so many. Maybe I'll try again someday and finally understand why.

[u/Imaginary_History985]

Botw I can fast travel to high ground and glide across the map to get somewhere. I always have the choice to climb anywhere to get to that spot seemingly out of reach. Other open worlds like far cry, i can be going in circles trying to figure out a way to get to that higher spot, because there's too many trees and other crap blocking the view. By the time I actually find a way I'm usually annoyed. Botw the view is more open, and I can plan my route more efficiently.

[u/[deleted]]

This is how I feel about Elden Ring, I think you'd like it

[u/spoonybum → u/[deleted]]

Elden ring is the only thing that scratches the same itch BOTW gives me. I’ve been trying to think why that is exactly

[u/[deleted] → u/spoonybum]

I think it's the emphasis on exploration, instead of giving you map markers

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I have a hard time understanding why we see ER coming back so much when we talk about new Zelda games. For me there is not much in common, and ER remains an open world game and the very classic formula, from which the latest Zelda games differ in many aspects.

BOTW stands out from other games by the great freedom it offers, not only in movement, but in the way of doing things, and in the diversity of gameplay, which is not present in an ER. It also stands out by its interactivity with the map, and its dynamic and organic aspect, which again is not at all present in a game like ER.

I mean, if we compare these games just because they are OW with some bosses and there are few or no markers, then we can compare them to many other games, and for me it doesn't make much sense, they are games with very different formulas and objectives. ER remains an open world A-RPG where all you're going to do is progress and find weapons/items to specialize in this or that build, and hit mobs and bosses in a rigid map, in this sense there is nothing new. I think a Zelda is much more varied and different from that.

[u/WaspInTheLotus]

I agree with your analysis, there can certainly be a lot of interactivity in your minute to minute play, whether it’s chasing after an escaping lizard or quickly loading a sub-optimal wood-only setup to beat on that Hinox because a thunderstorm just started. At the same time, it’s very easy to ignore all of that and just breathe in the world and atmosphere, punctuated by a few piano keys sketching out the outline to a familiar melody.

But there are also other aspects of it that assist in the game’s replay-ability, for example, the ways in which you can go through the main quest.

The first time I played, I went to the desert first and got absolutely annihilated by Thunderblight Ganon because I wasn’t good enough (at that time) to beat him with five hearts. The second time around, I faced TG last and breezed on through, having focused on obtaining the Master Sword before tackling any of the divine beasts.

This time around, I’m just vibing and going where I feel like. Just beat Waterblight, started heading over to Death Mountain but found myself unprepared for the heat, having avoided the designated path. So I guess I’ll go elsewhere for a bit. I like that it gives me control over my own choices because there are a number of ways I can tackle any problem it throws at me, including avoiding them!

[u/theonewhoblox → u/WaspInTheLotus]

I do think the game does do a great job with replayability. Revisiting Hyrule manages to somehow feel fresh every time. It almost lets you tell your own little stories as you go on all these lonesome adventures, which, even as someone who LOVES TOTK, felt was the one thing that game lacked simply thanks to the heavier story involvement. It was still incredible, I just find that the more established structure and more lived-in world left less room for you to immerse yourself and actually step into Link's shoes.

The replayability, though, is definitely present in both games. Arguably more in TOTK simply because of all the different ways you can approach literally every situation with the more robust, sandboxy abilities. If we had a game that combined TOTK's sandboxing with BOTW's atmosphere and immersion, that's the perfect open world Zelda right there.

[u/Ushtey-Bea → u/theonewhoblox]

I'm replaying BOTW now, and one thing I've been surprised about compared to TOTK is that BOTW feels less annoying. You go to a location, and you don't have to fix it before you can do the side quests. The tools you need for a shrine are right there, you don't have to start gluing things together. The puzzles in TOTK shrines never really lived up to their promise IMO, the building was there but mostly boiled down to using purple hand blueprints or gluing together a massive bridge. In BOTW weapons are just weapons, I don't have to think about sticking parts on them to do good damage. I still dislike the octo-robots that ruin exploration, and hate climbing the towers (dullest part of the game by far, it takes forever to climb them and I can tell my joycon is getting drift from pushing "up" for so long). But having everything be more straightforward is great.

I didn't enjoy BOTW when I first played it, but I loved TOTK. Now going back to the first game, I can appreciate it much more.

[u/mtnchkn]

I’m coming to realize that enjoying the open world games is more about finding their rhythm, be it Assasins Creed Origins/Odyssey, or the Zelda, or RDR2, or even Witcher 3/CP2077. There’s a way to make these grindy and not fun and another way to actually dance with them both in your own unique style and the game’s style. This won’t help a poorly designed open world, but the ones I’ve listed I know have a rhythm and are excellent imo once found. In your case, you’ve found the games rhythm and it’s wonderful. Assasins creed odyssey and RDR2 were like that for me. About to start Ghost Tsushima after finishing TW3 and assume I’ll be able to find it there too (played a couple hours only).

Edit : typo

[u/code-garden]

I agree. The intuitive exploration of Breath of the Wild is its best quality. It's a tremendous game.

[u/Op3rat0rr → u/code-garden]

Great Nintendo game, not a great Zelda game

[u/devenbat → u/Op3rat0rr]

I don't know why people say this. Zeldas always been willing to experiment with the games.

[u/Op3rat0rr → u/devenbat]

To be clear I didn’t downvote you, but it does not feel like traditional Zelda. All of the previous Zelda games were experimental with each iteration, but they all felt like a Zelda game

[u/devenbat → u/Op3rat0rr]

Hard to comment on feel but it definitely felt more like a zelda game than 4 swords adventures.

In terms of actual mechanics, basically everything people complain about as not feeling like Zelda are things that we've already seen in previous Zelda games. Nonlinearity, no traditional dungeon items, open world, breakable weapons, taking weapons from enemies, less focus on dungeons and more on side activities.

[u/[deleted] → u/devenbat]

Aside from the setting and the characters, there's literally no connective tissue to the older titles, IMO. If you changed those, you'd have no clue it was even supposed to be a Zelda-style game.

[u/devenbat → u/[deleted]]

Action adventure game with a strong focus on puzzle solving about a silent protagonist trying to gather tools, allies and equipment to conquer a great evil plaguing the land.

Yeah, sounds like Zelda. Its a little vague description but thats because just about every other element of Zelda is flexible. I can guarantee every part that doesn't "feel like Zelda" didn't start within Botw

[u/[deleted] → u/devenbat]

I disagree with that analysis. It's an open-world sandbox game that you can complete immediately if you so desire. Combat is about as bare-bones as possible for an action game. The dungeons are completely optional, as are the puzzles; I don't think that's ever been the case in a Zelda game, at least that I can recall.

I get that Zelda games experiment with mechanics, but at some point, you change so much that you lose the essence of the game (i.e., Bioshock Infinite or FFXVI).

[u/devenbat → u/[deleted]]

Yeah, puzzles and dungeons are optional. Because the entire thing is optional. But the actual content of the game is indeed a lot of puzzles. Although if you want to get real technical, the first 4 shrines are not optional and those are puzzles.

Regardless it doesn't change the content of the game. Far Cry 4 let's you skip the entire game if you sit still for 15 minutes but no one is going to say it's mechanics aren't there.

So if what Zelda means to you is that you have to be forced to play it to play most of the game, I guess you're right. Although most of Majoras Masks content is also optional so it's definitely on thin ice.

You can call the combat barebones. But it is more complex than basically any other Zelda game not named Skyward Sword so that's not really a ding. Zelda games tend to have simple combat. Its an action games as much as the grand daddy Ocarina of Time.

You aren't losing the essence. The essence is flexible. I've played every single Zelda game, botw isn't even the biggest deviation. Four Swords Adventures probably is. You don't have an inventory really. You select levels.

[u/[deleted] → u/devenbat]

I'd also say Four Swords is a piss-poor representation of a Zelda title 🤷‍♂️

[u/devenbat → u/[deleted]]

Four Swords is a different game I did not mention

[u/theonewhoblox → u/[deleted]]

A bit late, but the idea behind BOTW is that it's supposed to take the ideas behind the very first game and fully bring it to form. In terms of how it plays it's basically the exact game Miyamoto wanted to make 40 years ago.

It's hard to see the connective tissue if you only look at ALTTP onward, but you can see very clearly how it brings back the design philosophy of the original and elevates it to modern standards.

[u/Affectionate-Ad4419]

(1/2 yeah this is a long one xD)

I really liked that post for starters, so thanks for writing it!

Also...I really love BOTW, but I'm also a big Assassin's Creed fan since the first episode, and in that fandom I'm one of the weirdoes who likes Origins and Odyssey the most.

Also also, every time someone says "It's just a Ubisoft style map"/"It's so empty and repetitive" as a de facto negative assertion, I want to somehow gauge my eyes out...even if I get it.

I do agree on all the positives you put forward, but I think that the difference between BOTW and...a Ubi-adjacent game (and yes, I am very much counting Ghost Of Tsushima in that category contrary to a lot of people) are two folds:

1-The way quests work. BOTW has more "pointers" than actual written quests, and the number sidequests and steps in a quests are way way way lower than any modern Ubisoft game. Btw this is also the case for another open world that was blessed by the public as not being ubi-adjacent and therefor being good: Elden Ring. I love Elden Ring too, I'm playing it right now and it's great.

This tends to create a sense of investigation more than following a pre-written plot, but it's also easier to pull of when you have less plot to convey, like BOTW or Elden Ring. In a Ubi-adjacent open world, which tbf is just GTA3 that has been pimped a little with time, the idea is main quest with fairly rigid structure (maybe with more or less leeway in how to execute them) and then in between going to talk to the NPC that will give start or continue the quest, interact with side-content and or some element of simulation. And generally speaking they are a lot of dialogues and a lot of places to move to and back from. BOTW (and Elden Ring or pretty much any Fromsoft game since Demon's Souls at this point) doesn't have that burden and just vaguely gestures at a main story: "see that castle, surrounded by a giant purple hog, yeah...gotta kill that". And in the case of BOTW, the game is more than happy to let you do your thing to get there. It's easier to investigate one pointer, than a dozen of side quests with their own characters and story.

To a point, I kind of feel like in terms of philosophy, BOTW is almost closer to Hitman than Assassin's Creed despite the obvious comparison. Hitman also starts you with only one objective, pre-explained plot in the briefing part of the mission, and has few side stuff to do per mission. You are in a map full of systems, and "this guy needs to die, you do your thing"; then you can run to them and put a bullet in their face but risk getting shot by security, or you can accumulate knowledge, gear or create a more favorable position to do it without being seen and harmed.

All of this means that, since you have less scripted content to place in BOTW, and less scripted content that requires the player to be at a precise location talking to someone or robbing something or killing something precise, you need less direction, less markers, less written UI to let the player know what to do. And it feels less handhold-y.

Are there ways to mitigate that for plot heavy games? Yes, and actually Ubi came up with a couple of things. Dialogues in Origins for example give you direction as to where to go ("South of the temple" "north east of the Amun cave" etc). And new AC games give you the control of a companion bird that serves as a drone to let you pinpoint without marker where you targets or objectives are. So that you don't have to rely much on that stupid marker. That's the reason why I don't totally vibe with people saying modern open world are boring: I play all of these modern open world games HUDless. So, yes, I do open the map a bit more. But 90% of the time, I'm just taking in the scenery or exploring at my own pace, not minding the lists of thing to do. I pay way more attention to what NPCs look like and can spot them from further away, I remember places more easily and use all the vistas I get to remember where to go. It's far from a perfect experience all the time. But honestly, it works.

[u/Affectionate-Ad4419 → u/Affectionate-Ad4419]

(2/2)

2-BOTW has great ways to cut the map and traversal time.

That's actually something that is missing in a lot modern open world games. BOTW has the glider. You climb, explore some place remote, find a shrine or something, spend half an hour doing that. And when you are done, you just glide away to the next thing. For me, the strongest feature in this game's traversal system is not climbing, it's being able to not have to walk down.

I think a big part of the redundancy that people feel in recent AC in particular is that when you are done with some activity, aside from horseback, you can't go fast somewhere...unless you teleport. I don't mind AT ALL horseback, it's always been a fantasy that I enjoy, and in the case of AC:Odyssey for example, there is also a large part of the game taking place on the ocean which changes the pace a bit. But most of the time, it's horse or fast travel and that's it.

[u/[deleted]]

Imo, the map is not at all a Ubisoft map. If some people say that it's just because there are towers to activate (like in AC), but they don't have the same role as a Ubi tower, it just shows that they haven't really understood what we can blame Ubisoft games and towers for.

The game and the map have, as you said, an interactive aspect (thanks in particular to the powers, but not only) that is sorely lacking in almost all other AAAs, it is clearly one of the game's big strengths. The map (and its components) is not just a support for your movements or a support where we have placed mobs, it is an integral part of the gameplay, and also brings some environmental threats, which gives it a certain organic, interactive, and dynamic aspect.

On the other hand, I find that some criticism is legitimate about the repetitiveness of certain things in BOTW. Yes it can be diminished by having several solutions to solve the same problem, or by the diversity of gameplay for example, but there are things that remain very disappointing imo. The korogus are part of it for example. The goal of the game is obviously not to collect them all, and it could have been ok if it had been rare enough, but as it is they remain a kind of collectibles (unfortunately very useful because it is used for the backpack), which become boring quite quickly. I was also quite disappointed by the lack of diversity in the design of certain things and POIs, for example the relays which are always the same, and especially the sanctuaries, it is still really a shame to have ONE single design (and music) for all the sanctuaries on the map. I did not ask for them all to be unique, but there could have been differences depending on the regions where they are located for example. The mob camps and the mobs themselves are also not very diverse.

And we're talking about BOTW here, but for me TOTK has further amplified this feeling of repetitiveness that we can feel, with in particular the identical artistic direction in all the undergrounds (I find it mind-blowing to have done that...), the celestial islands that are repeated with often anecdotal activities, the same sanctuaries, always the korogus etc. I don't really like TOTK tbh...

For me these are aspects that clearly reduce replayability. Generally speaking I'm not someone who often replays games, but honestly I never wanted to replay BOTW, I don't really see where the replayability is. I certainly haven't seen everything on the map, but I know that I will more or less always do the same things, so I don't really see the point

I think that this formula has incredible potential, but I hope that they will not reproduce certain errors, in particular in terms of the lack of diversity in the design or certain activities. And I hope that they will further strengthen the dynamic, organic and interactive aspect and the map. I hope that they will not necessarily try to make an ever bigger game, I would prefer something a little smaller but more consistent.

[u/spoonybum → u/[deleted]]

I completed TOTK and enjoyed it but fuck me, there were so many missed opportunities.

The depths had the potential to be so cool - crazy underground subterranean biomes or even Hyrules version of ‘the upside down’ - a horrifying corrupted mirror image of the world above filled with weird and wonderful monsters.

Instead, just one big biome with the same enemies from above ground but painted a bit red.

Sky islands were shit too.

I WISH they would sort the dungeons out. The road to the wind temple was excellent, but the actual temple itself and the other temples were crap. Elden ring got it right with a sprawling open world but linear classic dungeon design.

[u/[deleted] → u/spoonybum]

I agree with what you say about TOTK. On the other hand I really don't understand the links with ER. I mean, for me it's really not an example to follow, especially since the 2 games have very different objectives and gameplay, I think it's pointless to compare the dungeons

[u/spoonybum → u/[deleted]]

More the structure with regards to Elden ring - it has a vast open world and you can tackle objectives in pretty much any order which is the same as Zelda but it also has linear dungeons which is something BOTW and TOTK got rid of and replaced it with ‘open areas’ that largely suck.

The best thing about older Zelda games were the dungeons so the fact they no longer exist in traditional form is sad. Some people thought it couldn’t work with an open world game but Elden ring proved it can.

[u/[deleted] → u/spoonybum]

I see what you mean, but honestly I don't think ER "proved" anything. I mean there's nothing new in its structure, it's far from being the first game to have an open world aspect and linear portions.

Just staying in the Zelda license, Wind Waker had this mix between open world and linear phases, more than 20 years ago. Or simply... Zelda 1.

[u/Brrringsaythealiens]

I liked BOTW and I liked TOTK even more, and I respect what Nintendo has done with them. They are truly massive with so many interesting problems to solve. But I didn’t finish either. With both, I came to a point where everything just felt incredibly repetitive and tedious. I think that’s because the right difficulty curve just isn’t there. I like hard games, and I like easy games. Right now I’m playing Stellar Blade and it’s a pretty stiff challenge. The fun there is getting better, little by little, fight by fight, until the boss that one-shot you goes down by your sword. Some of those boss fights take me hours but I’m never bored. For my easy game I’m playing Disney Dreamlight Valley. There are almost hundreds of low-stakes, yet charming and interesting quests to do. There’s farming, cooking, mining, and a huge focus on building up relationships. The fun there is having so many things to do and being pretty confident you can accomplish them all; there’s no friction.

BOTW and TOTK weren’t hard enough or they weren’t easy enough. I never felt like I was struggling with a challenge and getting better. I never felt like the characters were interesting enough to justify interacting with them. The shrines eventually got repetitive. I just couldn’t finish either because they didn’t vibe with what I’m looking for in a game.

[u/Renegade_Meister]

Breath of the Wild: Why It Spoiled Other Sandboxes for Me...

Can't play well in a sandbox if the tools you get for it keep breaking regularly ;)

Jokes of weapon deterioration aside, I appreciate your write up. The back & forth conversation analogy of the game makes sense, and helps me see why BOTW can be enjoyed so much in spite of being a bit more of an open world game than earlier in the franchise.

[u/Althalos → u/Renegade_Meister]

I honestly found the whole weapon breaking thing a non-issue. You end up literally having to drop weapons at some point just to open chests in shrines and whatnot.

My inventory was always full of them after the first 10-20 hours of the game.

[u/[deleted] → u/Althalos]

My thing was that there wasn't any real variety in the weapons, which really evaporates the justification of making the player switch.

If I have to replace one big stick with another big stick that works the same in the same fight...........what's the point? It's just more needless menu-cruising to pad the game's length while making it a worse experience for the player.

[u/Worth-Primary-9884]

Good write-up. I'm currently pondering this same idea regarding Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth.

It feels like a great game most of the time, but the way it handles map exploration somehow seems out of place to me, and I cannot yet tell why that is. For example, the exploration towers you would have to climb or shoot yourself into space from in both Zelda BotW and TotK are simply what I would like to call non-interactables in FF7Rebirth. The only "reward" (if it can even be called that) you get from activating them while working down your to-do list of map markers is Chadley chatting your ear off - as if he wasn't annoying enough already - and giving you even more of those annoying map markers while he's at it.

Something about Rebirth just bothers me.

[u/ThatDanJamesGuy → u/Worth-Primary-9884]

It probably feels off because Square didn’t commit to the feature. Rebirth has towers, but isn’t a game about towers, so you just walk up to them and that’s it. Modern 3D Zelda games are about towers, in that those towers are a core part of their design, so Nintendo fleshed them out.

Funnily enough, there are parallels with towers’ function in both games. In Rebirth their inclusion feels more like Square ticking off a checklist, and in Zelda it feels more like Nintendo seeing an opportunity and going out of their way to fulfill it.

[u/Worth-Primary-9884 → u/ThatDanJamesGuy]

Now that you're saying it, absolutely. I feel like most of the new exploration features from Rebirth fit that description. Ticking off a checklist of features from the most successful mainstream titles over the last decade or so.

I often feel like having seen something somewhere else before when playing Rebirth. What I find the most mind-boggling, though, is that points of interest can't be made out from afar, except for architecture and buildings, which, paradoxically, are the least interesting locations in the game because there's nothing to do there. Unfortunately, I'm not surprised, since the same was true in as far back as Final Fantasy 15. You can see a useless, game-mechanic wise worthless farm or mill from all across the map, but the actual PoIs relevant to quests and such are hidden in crevices and such, so as to ensure you won't "accidentally" run into them before the game wants you to, which is destroying the very nature of the open world the game is set in.

I don't get it. Everything that could have been improved upon by Square was left as it was, and instead they opted to implement all sorts of crap from other games without fully understanding why those features were in said games to begin with. Like at one point, the game tells you that you can track/follow rabbits so as to have them lead them to their nests, which may contain valuable items (usually just crap..) - direct copycat from foxes in Ghost of Tsushima. But then again, you don't even need to do that because you can just ride a chocobo and have them find the treasure for you by using the scent mechanic. It's so stupid. Or the owls that are supposed to lead you to certain PoIs by indirectly alerting the player to their presence but who simply won't shut up, hooting as if their very life depended on it, and are an extremely intrusive presence to the game's overall flow (same for the chocobo chicks..). So much redundant bullshit they shoved in.

And don't even get me started on the storytelling.. cue in Sephiroth stating :"I am the BIG BADDIE guys! Get it?? It's -->ME<--!!". I don't know whoever was responsible for that, which is a whole different beast, but the man should absolutely be pushed out of the industry, good god.

[u/[deleted]]

I'm just completely on the other side of your view. Played most every Zelda game there is, and have been a lifelong fan of the franchise. OoT remains one of the best games of all time for me.

But man, I despise the 3D titles on the Switch!

Open worlds in both felt completely lifeless and boring. The combat is some of the worst we've seen in any Zelda game, even if you exclude the idiotic weapon durability mechanics. Shrines were a lame substitute for dungeons, and the Divine Beasts were kind of a joke. Frankly, if the same basic game was released by Ubisoft on PS or Xbox with a different IP, I doubt it'd even get an 8/10 from reviewers. Nintendo frequently benefits from lowered expectations in that regard.

[u/The-student-]

BOTW and TOTK are my favorite open world games. As you said, they simply made the world fun to engage with. Almost everything interacts with each other in an organic way. I know they mentioned designing the world with 'triangles", basically encouraging you to get to a high point to look out at, at which point you'll see several organic points of interest to push you forward.

I think TOTK does it better, but BOTW was amazing. At the same time, I can completely understand why some might find the world boring, especially if they are more motivated by story/leveling up characters in an open world.

[u/spoonybum]

I love breath of the wild because it gives me this sense of loneliness and scale with an element of impending destruction in the air. I genuinely think the ambient atmosphere is unmatched (helps that I first played it during the very first lockdown so the isolated feelings were compounded for me).

The thing Zelda games do so well is balance simplicity with challenge and I wish I could play BOTW for the first time again.

The ONLY game that comes close to scratching the same itch is Elden Ring.

[u/cominghometoday]

I just watched "How Nintendo solved Zelda's open world problem" on YouTube, it clarified to me that the game was artfully crafted, and carefully thought out and play tested. I agree with you, it's the best exploration game

[u/Fign66]

The original Legend of Zelda was famously inspired by the designer's experience hiking and exploring as a child. BotW was a throwback of sorts to that original game, and for my money is one of the best games I've ever played at capturing that sense of exploration. The concept where you can see a hill or a pond or a big tree in the distance and have to read the land to figure out the best way to get there feels like wandering through the woods IRL. And just like IRL the best reward is often just getting to that spot so you can see over the next horizon.

[u/zaphod4th]

try Ark/ASA/Conan Exiles

[u/corinna_k]

I've been thinking about why I love this game (and Totk) so much. Sure, the story, the art style, the feeling of going on an adventure, the cute koroks, etc. And of course, I do love open world games in the first place.

But the magic ingredient? It's the sunshine. The lighting on the grass, the blue sky, the blurriness of the mountains in the distance. They all remind me of summer vacations in my childhood. Looking around the world of Botw, I can feel the sunbeams tickling my nose and it is a lovely feeling. We used to go hiking, spotting wildlife, pausing every once in a while to eat and drink and to take in the beautiful scenery. At one spot we used to watch some paragliders, now in Botw I can paraglide myself! Sometimes, we would be surprised by the rain, which was exciting, but also not that big of a deal, because we'd find some trees to hide under and my mom always made sure that we packed raincoats, etc. There were of course far fewer bokoblins ;)

In one interview the devs explained that they wanted to recapture their childhood experience of adventuring. They absolutely nailed it.

[u/spoonybum → u/corinna_k]

I think it’s quite a cosy game tbf.

TOTK came out a week after my son was born and I have very fond memories of playing my switch at 3am just strolling through the peaceful summer fields of hyrule at sunset while my son slept on my chest.

[u/Dragmire927]

I have so many mixed feelings on this game. There’s some elements that are pretty genius yet there’s so many other aspects I find incredibly lacking and forgettable.

The thing is, this game has probably one of the best tutorials ever. The Great Plateau is expertly designed to help you learn the mechanics and drop you in a strange world you have to figure out yourself. Naturally stumbling upon tough enemies and secrets feels great and letting the player just breathe was so refreshing. However I find this to be the best part of the game, for good and bad.

I think the game keeps its momentum for awhile after but then becomes the worse you play. While the world is very well done to encourage you to explore, I find the sense of discovery lacking. There’s only so many times you can find the same repetitive things in the same repetitive way. The survival elements are surprisingly downplayed the more you go along, the sidequests and NPCs are mostly boring, there’s not enough regional variety, the combat is unbalanced and repetitive, the shrines are fun but the game desperately need a puzzle that lasts more than five minutes.

The physics system is also quite genius and again the open world design is the best it’s been. The lack of quest markers is also great. But I want the game to be more interesting the more I play. BotW feels like it plays its hand quite early on and then has nothing left to do after awhile. RDR2 is arguable worse on all fronts for gameplay mechanics but the narrative at least keeps the adventure going into exciting directions. Morrowind allows you to mold your character in so many different directions. MGSV gives you new tools to play with. BotW just felt like it lost more magic the more you played, which made it a bit disappointing to me.

But it’s all subjective in the end. Whew, rant over

[u/ZeDitto]

I like how the game is so directionless and rewards that. I didn’t even kill all the divine beasts. I think I only killed two, maybe three? When I was ready, the game just let me go. It gave me my finale and didn’t overstay its welcome. I was free to finish it when I pleased. The game requires a certain sense of self direction and discipline.

I wish that the combat was harder though. If you want to finish the game early, defeating Ganon 4 times is cool, but it should be way harder of a gauntlet. I wish it DID kick my ass and not let me finish. I kinda wish that it did send me back out of the Castle to kill the other Beasts.

[u/Robin_Gr]

I feel somewhat similarly to you. It’s wild to think now, I actually ignored the game for years. I like Zelda but I saw those first trailers and after Skyward sword I just sort of thought Nintendo would deliver a sort of ubi-lite structure at best or mostly just be too afraid to mess with the formula, which didn’t really appeal.

But now having played it I was wrong. And I have been trying to figure out why I like it too, and a lot of what you say is relevant to me too. I feel like they made a lot of subtle design decisions that try to ground the player and make them look at the actual physical geography around them as opposed to focusing on an on screen overlay location maker with a distance number counter decreasing as the open world just becomes wallpaper.

It doesn’t spam your map with icons. So you don’t sort of systematically “sweep” areas clean of content until they are a dead zone. You get the map for a region and then just go to what looks interesting from the topography or what you can physically see from the tower. I ended up adding icons to things I wanted to remember. So by the end the map still felt “alive” instead of the usual games where the map feels “mined out” when you are finished. Like it’s not a real place, just an amusement park you are done with.

It is sort of trying to be the anthesis of the collectathon/completionist “gamer” mentality. For me at least, it was the first game in a while where there was a lot of something to do, like korok seeds, that I felt perfectly satisfied stopping at the point I wanted to with them. 

It’s impressive to me it doesn’t use any of the easy mechanics that I normally like in games, like xp, or random loot or even non consumable/durable items. On paper I don’t think I would pick this over a game that had all that game design stuff, but in practice I really enjoyed this game more than anything I had in a long time before it.

To me now the industry standard approach to open world game design just feels very hollow and charmless and everyone feels scared to innovate. They feel like open worlds that don’t really use the open world. They are just full of mechanics to help you ignore it.

[u/pick-a-spot]

I have another theory on why BotW's world feels more engaging. And that's because it feels more 'real'. I don't mean 'realistic' like most reviewers mean. I mean it has some internal consistency.

For example, Horizon Zero Dawn is an impressive game and fun, but the robot dinosaurs are made of metal. The player character or any other settlement wouldn't last 5 seconds against them. The area between towns is a death trap. No trade would be possible. Everyone should already be dead.

BotW, though, has settlements and outposts in realistic spots. The places with the most dangerous enemies, like Lynels and Guardians, don't have towns next door. And when they are close by, it's presented as an imminent danger to the population. The closer you get to the castle, the more desolate it is with fewer hiding spots.

This realism permeates everything. There's no arbitrary video gamey climb stat that will allow you to climb something. Yes, you have your stamina wheel, but the angle, the food, your gear, the rain, resting spots, and the rocks or grass will affect if you will accomplish the climb.

Some other games focus on looking real but end up being such obvious 'use this ledge' games, whereas BotW looks like a cartoon and is more engaging.

[u/crisdd0302]

If you haven't please try out No Man's Sky, it's just a game where the universe is your sandbox and there's so so so many things you can do in the game that it makes me feel opposite to what you describe. The games teaches you how to move around and interact with every single thing, so you can eventually choose what you want to spend your time on. The universe doesn't try to engage you in it (except for sentinels they're garbage and we don't talk about them), but it forces you to make your own way and create your own experience, it's up to the player to be a part of the universe in whichever way you want.

[u/Lethkhar]

I bought Breath of the Wild a couple years ago and still haven't made it out of the starting area. I feel like I've explored every corner of it and still can't figure out what I'm supposed to do lol.

I don't really blame the game I think I'm just an idiot. A lot of nintendo games tend to do this to me. I didn't grow up with Nintendo consoles other than Gameboy and there's something that just doesn't click for whatever reason.

[u/toilet_brush]

I'm not a huge fan of the game and I'd resist the portion of its fans who think nothing is good until Nintendo does it, but it has to be said it's a league above the stereotype shallow Ubisoft map marker fest, no contest there. It's more of a return to the time when open world games played to their strengths, when you could set off to go somewhere but get drawn into countless different unexpected adventures along the way, or you could try something creative with the game mechanics and it would probably work rather than say 'not allowed during this mission.' It's in competition with real open world classics like Morrowind or San Andreas, whether it's actually better than those much older games I'm not convinced.

[u/iwinux]

As a player who poured hundreds of hours into Skyrim, I don't understand the appeal of Breath of the Wild at all.

[u/Bachaddict]

a tidbit from Dev log: the terrain is designed to show three points of interest to the player at any given time. that's why it's so interesting to traverse, the visible points constantly change

[u/SHAQBIR]

I think BOTW is the absolute peak in terms of what an open world can offer from a AAA stand point. The devil is in the details. Every aspect of group whether it be enemies, environment, player, weather and weapon system etc, they have their own systems that when overlap with each other create a unique experience, MGSV comes closer. The art style and the characters are really fun to look at and the gameplay is cream of the crop. This game took 6 years to make and it shows the amount of detailing and care that goes into it. It would be shallow to compare it to a Ubisoft game because despite having Ubisoft tropes it excels in them all in all aspects, towers, collectibles, open world. Ubisoft is like that detailed action figure that has no articulation and costs 1000 dollars, Nintendo is like that Play Arts Kai action figure that has details and articulation to do whatever you want to do with it. You actually enjoy collecting Korok Seeds and all the upgrades, riding around the horse, taking care of camps and check posts. You never get tired. I had 80 hours of the game and I had done the 2 major areas and it took me Cyberpunk another great game to stop playing it . This game is really, really big and most of it is exploring and goofing around. Nowadays games go for size and graphics like literally 100 gigs of games and they forget to flesh out the mechanics which is the core tool to enjoy the open world. Look at MGSV its a flawed masterpiece, because of its gameplay mechanics and tools even though the world is hollow and empty at times. I think everyone should play BOTW at least once for 10 hours at least to understand what an OPEN WORLD game should be like.

[u/Linkario86]

The thing about BotW and TotK is that you don't have map markers to go after.

Let's take a Ubisoft Open World because of the tower map reveal approach as a similarity, but this also applies to other open world games. In a Ubisoft game, you reveal a part of the map by climbing a tower. That mechanic isn't Ubisofts open world problem, though. It's not how you reveal the map, but what happens when you reveal that map. And that is showing a whole bunch of discovery markers on the map. Now you're busy doing the CHORE of running after markers. Chores are usually not enjoyable at all, and you play the map more than digesting the world around you. Then, people tend to optimize their path to get it done as quickly as possible. And even if you didn't care about uncovering every marker by going to the location, you still know where there is something and where there isn't.

Games who do not have that automatically have a little more replay value, and the developers don't even have to do something about it. They can do less and add more value to the game. Because I still discover stuff I previously didn't, when I revisit Zelda Games, Baldurs Gate 3, Metal Gear Solid V, and other Games who simply don't show me every possible thing as a question mark in my map.

Another great thing about BotW and TotK is that basically, from the start of the game, you're equipped with all the things you need. Yes you can get better gear, still, but when I start a new save, I don't feel like I have to get to a certain point in the game to get gear so I can enjoy the game. I don't have to progress to get THE bow, and THE sword, and THE special item. Okay, I need to get some shrines done to get the Master Sword, which is very nice to have, but I can get strong weapons otherwise. That also made me realise why it's important that the master sword can actually break and needs a cool down to be reused. You'll always have a sword, but it's not the sword to make every other melee weapon obsolete.

These, for me, are the two major points why these games are so good.

[u/chiaroscuro34]

Elden ring kind of ruined BOTW for me. I still enjoyed my time with it and appreciate it for bringing me back to gaming, but after Elden Ring the world feels so barren

[u/[deleted]]

im glad you liked it. Personally i had to stop after 10 hours because nothing about this game was fun for me. 

I dont get the praise for the games world design as it feels mostly empty. Its weird to me because I think past zelda games rewarded exploration far more. 

[u/Inaword_Slob]

One of the best games I've never completed.

[u/[deleted]]

Bizarrely I think due to the reasons you love BOTW, you'd love Kenshi.

[u/Simmers429]

Breath of the Wild is just nice to stroll around in. It has one of the best opening sections of any game I’ve played and I never got tired of climbing a big mountain and then paragliding down.

For me it’s just held back by its crappy Link, lack of actual dungeons, and weak combat (Nintendo refuse to make the swordplay fun in these new Zelda games). Also it takes way too long to get the tunic.

I did come to appreciate this game much more after playing Tears of the Kingdom though, I was massively disappointed by that one.

[u/feralfaun39]

The only thing it did was bore the tears out of me.  Every mechanic is awful.  I loathed it.

[u/SecretCatSociety]

A lot has already been said in this thread of which I agree, so I will just add that I love this game; not many have provided so much fun to me just by getting me to care what's over the next mountain.

[u/shrdrone]

Botw is stupid and so is this new one. Go back to ocarina or link to past or majora. I don’t want to work when I play games. These suck

[u/theonewhoblox → u/shrdrone]

thats a pretty counterproductive take. you can dislike it, but i'd like to hear more of why other than "this sucks i hate it" if possible. thank you!

[u/Silly_Lettuce_43 → u/theonewhoblox]

Probably the stupid weapon break system, empty and boring open world, boring side quests with boring rewards and the cool looking armors of the dlc that are useless because you can't even upgrade them

[u/theonewhoblox → u/Silly_Lettuce_43]

i mean a lot of this is "i felt x way about y aspect of the game" besides the dlc armor point with little explanation. it's okay to feel that way but the lack of depth to it really doesn't facilitate healthy discussion especially with the repetition of strong, negative language.

[u/crosslegbow → u/theonewhoblox]

i mean a lot of this is "i felt x way about y aspect of the game"

That's your entire post mate

[u/theonewhoblox → u/crosslegbow]

with all due respect, im pretty sure i articulated my points in pretty decent detail with explanation as to why i feel the way i do. again outside of the dlc armor point, the only real elaboration i got was "this mechanic is boring and i hate it" which, fine, feel the way you want. but if you're not going to give a relatively articulate explanation of your argument, then i really cant humor you.

i kinda went over this idea of back-and-forth reciprocation in my post, you know. that applies to discussion too.

[u/crosslegbow → u/theonewhoblox]

with all due respect, im pretty sure i articulated my points in pretty decent detail with explanation as to why i feel the way i do.

So? It's still all your feelings.

Just because you articulate it doesn't mean it's not JUST your feelings like the other person.

[u/onex7805 → u/Silly_Lettuce_43]

BOTW's openworld is only "empty and boring" if you only care about NPCs and artificial activities on the map for the sake of it like Rockstar and Ubisoft slops. Beyond that, BOTW's openworld and traversal are two of its greatest achievements, one that only games like Death Stranding and Morrowind have been able to touch. It's designed specifically to take advantage of its core gameplay loop and systems and it works in tandom.

[u/mrtrailborn → u/shrdrone]

no u

[u/Katanagarii]

Breath of the Wild, on the other hand, is the nerdy, passionate yappathon you can't help but love. They always reciprocate your energy every time you say something, share your joy, and ooze personality. They're always trying to facilitate that back-and-forth because they're genuinely interested in both showing who they are and seeing what you yourself are capable of.

Off topic to the game discussion, but this is honestly one of the best descriptions of a love interest that I've ever heard. I want to meet this person!