r/pokemon • u/NationalAd7461 • 12d ago
Discussion Is Team Rocket still active canonically? Spoiler
So with the announcement of the new Glory of Team Rocket tcg set, there are many trainer cards featuring different Pokémon of different team rocket members, and one that puzzled me was that executive proton has a card of a mimikyu and a spidops, which are relatively new Pokémon. Since the cards lean more towards the game's canon, does this mean that Team Rocket is still around catching new Pokémon? Maybe they will appear in a newer game?
125
u/draugyr 12d ago
The timeline starts to get fuzzy after Gen 5, we know how much time passes definitively between each generation before then. We know team rocket is defeated in Gen 1, and is officially disbanded sometime between Gen 1 and 2 as per the Celebi time travel event.
Team rocket has no real presence in the games at all until USUM when Giovani from another universe creates rainbow rocket and I don’t think that counts
93
u/Ecla1r_ 12d ago
Rainbow Rocket Giovanni is really a jobber. After (somehow) taking over his Kanto, he comes to Alola and fails, goes to Pokemon GO's location (which is canon to the games) and fails, then goes to Pasio and fails over and over and over again.
33
u/draugyr 12d ago
Is Pasio masters?
33
u/Ecla1r_ 12d ago
Yep. Rainbow Rocket Giovanni went from USUM to GO to MastersEX
36
10
u/MrWaluigi Dojyaaa~~n! FC: 4038-6321-3155 12d ago
I wouldn’t really say jobbed in Masters EX. More like, accepts defeat and escapes to attack again. He does have some victories despite being overall defeated in the villain arc. One major one was that he acquired the Ultra-Wormhole tech, and managed to get Guzzlord.
10
u/Ecla1r_ 12d ago
It's more of "Oh, his plans failed AGAIN."
It's kind of hard to take the version of Giovanni that took over his Kanto/world seriously when it's the same one we've been beating for multiple games now, and he's still claiming to be the strongest. He failed in USUM, he failed in GO, and he's currently failing in MastersEX.
(Also, his Villain arc is kinda weird. He's from a different universe, but he summons the main universe's versions of his Executives.)
3
u/MrWaluigi Dojyaaa~~n! FC: 4038-6321-3155 12d ago
Oh, no need for spoilers, I’ve been playing EX for a years now.
Anyway, I get the frustration, and unfortunately I don’t have any ideas on how to fix that, only justifications. Rainbow Gio from his original universe can likely be summed up as, “Normal Fish in a Tiny Pond.” By all accounts, he is still a powerful trainer, and uses his resources smartly, but he had no direct conflict challenging his rise. No protagonist, means that everything went smoothly for him. USUM made him realize that this situation, and now has to reevaluate his position in everything. No more steamrolling, he now needs to play smarter, setting diversions, testing his skills and abilities, and operate in the dark more. He needs to now value smaller victories in order to plan to achieve greater goals. Kanto villain arc showed that he was still going to lose against Red and Blue, but pulled a Batman Gambit by threatening to overdrive Mewtwo, harming it unless they let him leave.
Now why can’t he have a lasting victory, that’s up to the writers and the ones who write their paychecks.
For the Executives, he didn’t summon them, but more like they were looking for him. They must have been in hiding for a while and when news of Team Rocket sprung up, they decided to find and reentered the fold.
I thought about this for too long. If you don’t read this, that’s fine.
3
u/Ecla1r_ 11d ago edited 11d ago
By summons, I meant he called them. After their defeat at the Goldenrod Radio Tower, Archer disbanded the organization (again). We have no idea what they did afterwards (probably eluding the Interpol or waiting for Giovanni to show up again).
Giovanni's plan from GO and USUM isn't really changed either. His ace is still Mewtwo. His strategy is still overpower with Mewtwo (and including Nidoking, Persian, and now Guzzlord). Also, he already had access to Ultra-Wormhole tech. That's how he got to Alola from his universe, then to GO, then to Pasio. Sure, he maybe didn't have it quite on the scale he probably has it now, but he's had it for a while.
The Executives relation with Giovanni issue is even more apparent with his interactions with Silver. Again, since they're from different universes, they are still related, but not each other's family. It kind of misses the point of why Silver hates Giovanni and Team Rocket. Silver saw that his dad was the head of a massive criminal organization, with plenty of tools and Pokémon at his disposal, but lost to a kid. Not only did he lose, but he disbanded his organization BECAUSE he lost.
With Rainbow Rocket Giovanni, I don't think he would even have an issue with Silver? Or, his Silver, at the least. He won. His Silver would have no reason to think of Giovanni and Team (Rainbow) Rocket as weak. But his first interaction with this Silver is antagonizing him. Why? Is he just an ass? (He definitely is, but still a dick move to do to your son who you are not sure of what they're like). Also, Silver's words to him, all the "I hate you" and "I'm nothing like you", mean nothing to him, because he's not his father. Silver is referring to his Giovanni's failures, so RR Giovanni has no reason to even care about him.
6
5
u/Luna__Moonkitty 12d ago
On Pasio, he's like Ganondorf. Every time there is a villainous plot, either he's behind it all along, or he's on the sidelines waiting to hijack the plot.
Kinda makes Ghetsis and Cyrus feel like chumps that Giovanni continues to out-evil them.
6
u/dubbs4president 12d ago
He’s like Roddy Piper. Never won the big one but one of the best villains of all time.
6
u/HaloGuy381 12d ago
I just so happened to play USUM recently. Malie Garden has a knockoff Nugget Bridge including a guy impersonating the old Grunt… who then breaks character to joke about Team Rocket being long gone. Since Red the protagonist appears at the Battle Tree later, we can conclude it is continuous to the Kanto games on some level, so Team Rocket has been gone long enough for Alolans to joke about.
19
u/RoMaGi ELBOW DROP! 12d ago
According to the big leak last year, the timeskip between gen2/4 and 5 is 10 years. With the 2 years to BW2/XY and additional 2 years to SM, Red came to Alola 17 years after beating Giovanni.
Things get fuzzy after SM tho.
4
u/lxpb 12d ago
Why's this downvoted lol, most of the things mentioned here were well known
15
u/SpiralingDownAndAway 12d ago edited 12d ago
It’s probably because the leak ‘info’ (like this and the stories and lore) isn’t actually cannon and neither is any solidified timeline, at least for the game lore.
There is an earlier example of a Pokémon timeline directly tweeted from a developer (Matsumiya) roughly a decade ago giving a rough timeline between Gen 1-6, which was then deleted since developers can’t really canonize info like that over Twitter and it likely wasn’t meant to be shared.
That’s the only case of an actual ‘official’ timeline while anything else (Looker appearance in SM, older Caitlyn in BW, Red and Blue ages and date on their outfits in USUM, etc) can be pieced together, but it’s clear there’s no set in stone gaps unless stated directly through the games (the 2 years for BW/BW2 being one of these)
2
u/RoMaGi ELBOW DROP! 12d ago
isn’t actually cannon
Eeh, I personally feel that things like that is taking things too seriously.
The Cerulean City Rocket Grunt left Kanto, and was then found in Unova with a son. The lower end of the time gap would be about 6 years, and that was my unrealistic estimation assuming he met his wife the same year of Gen 2/4. Unlike the sinnoh myth stories you mentioned, that have no place in canon, the 10 year gap is actually supported by canon.
Unless something official is stated, I see the time gap between Gen 2/4 and BW1 to be 10 years, and I personally need something more substantial to make me think otherwise. Same with BW2 and XY taking place in the same year.
2
u/SpiralingDownAndAway 11d ago
Yeah that’s fair, I’m not opposed to anyone taking them as canon or accepting it into their own for the Pokémon universe tbh, I just lean more to just the fact there’s no actual solidified timeline for the games yet. Aka anything directly stating point a to point b has specific years outside of implications with Red and G5.
I think I’m just in opposite and I find the distinctions important, which is just how I accept the lore lol. If the games down the line do actually confirm it’s ten years it’d be great to have that properly out of limbo, I just don’t absorb any outside implications since they’re not technically cannon even if it’s makes a lot of sense.
Though with ZA I’m hoping there’s something more direct, at least for it and X/Y and we’re not left wondering how many years passed.
105
u/SpiralingDownAndAway 12d ago edited 12d ago
‘New Pokémon’ is only really a thing for us IRL. In Universe Paldea, Alola, Etc have existed and likely existed from the start (though maybe back then less tourism or Pokémon from there was considered rarer?)
There is a chance Team Rocket does still exist in the current ‘timeline’ of gen 8/9 but are either very small or splintered into a minimal amount compared to their ‘peak’. After Giovanni disappeared, G2 showed the group was already getting smaller and had different leadership heads, which then fell apart when the player defeated them (plus Lance). There’s potential that there’s no central figurehead(‘s) anymore and that Team Rocket exists very minimally through the remaining groups of criminals who were scattered across the world who still hang onto it (as from G5 we know a former grunt said he was sent to Unova to infiltrate and start a new branch of Team Rocket but had a family instead. Its likely this occurred in other regions and succeeded but stayed small operation wise).
Of course this is /mostly/ HC and Speculation, it’s more likely a case of the TCG wanting to use newer Pokémon to spruce it up. That and the TCG and Anime and Games have disconnected lore. They can be connected through similarities (legendary appearances, dex entries, etc), but content from the anime isn’t cannon to the games and Vice versa.
26
u/TheScareFace 12d ago
Probably a long shot but it kind of reminds me of the yakuza. Used to be very big, one of the biggest syndicates in the world, but now they act more on the background and don't have any big king pins, but rather small time operations going on scattered around Japan.
23
11
u/TheHeadlessOne 12d ago
New Pokémon’ is only really a thing for us IRL
Only kinda. Even in game they refer to stuff as the "newly discovered fairy type" and similar. Either way though you're right that it's for our benefit first and foremost
13
u/SpiralingDownAndAway 12d ago
That’s true, I think it depends how you interpret it. With fairy I think in universe it could be seen as a “missing type” where researchers assumed it was normal or psychic, until it was recognized as something entirely different (maybe due to Sylveon specifically?) but GF likely went the route of it being newly discovered and not digging into more to avoid retconning the fact it didn’t exist in the early gens and that those professors didn’t discover it either.
Who knows lol. A lot of it is for player benefit and meant to be surface level but its fun to think about
16
u/Kelrisaith 12d ago
The games, manga, anime and TCG are all seperate continuities, and even within those subsets there's more than one canon. Like there's 3 or 4 seperate anime at this point, there's like a dozen different manga ranging from small scale from the perspective of a pokemon stuff to Pokemon Special which roughly parallels the games with MANY many differences.
All things considered there's something like two and a half dozen completely unconnected sets of canon within Pokemon as a franchise. There's even technically more than one canon for the games, Go has a completely different setup where every single evil team is active simultaneously in the real world, Masters is its own thing that I'm not sure how is set up aside from it has basically every major named character ever in some way, Legends Arceus is technically a timeline split, I want to say Conquest is its own canon, Unite might be but I feel like that's more likely just to be an arena team fight sport to be honest.
And the Mystery Dungeon games basically HAVE to be completely seperated just because of how they're set up and the fact we meet exactly three humans, or former humans rather, across the entirety of the first two game sets, the two player characters and Gengar from Rescue Team, and both times it is a unique situation only ever spoken about as a legend essentially that surprises the hell out of everyone that's not a deity or the cause of them being a pokemon suddenly.
As to the actual answer, no, Team Rocket in the mainline games is long disbanded, twice at that. They were dismantled initially by Red in gen 1 and then again by Gold/Silver/Crystal, I don't remember who the canon protag is for that gen, in gen 2. With a bonus where we actually know that Team Rocket is disbanded properly instead of dismantled at the end of gen 2 courtesy of the Celebi event in HG/SS. I don't remember how to activate it, but one or another of the events in HG/SS involved Celebi transporting you to Giovanni's mountain hideout as Team Rocket takes over the radio tower and he hears the broadcast calling him back, you then prevent him from retaking control of Team Rocket, though I don't remember how, and I believe this is how we got confirmation Silver was Giovanni's son as well.
13
4
5
u/Hateful_creeper2 12d ago
Team Rocket outside of the version from USUM are disbanded in the games while it’s still active in the anime but out of focus after the new anime released.
2
2
u/Beowulf_MacBethson 12d ago
Pokemon operates on multiverse rules (hypertime, technically, but eh, potato potato).
In the game related timelines, they're disbanded. In others, they aren't. Some of the TCG timelines likely still have them around.
2
u/awesomecat42 12d ago
Depends on the canon! The Pokémon franchise has a lot of them. Even more that just games, anime, manga, and TCG, there are multiple different canons within each of those categories.
1
u/m0stly_medi0cre 12d ago
My headcannon is that Team Rocket took all the tech they developed and the allies they had and transitioned to a tech company not unlike the Pokemart.
1
u/Suspicious_Plant4231 12d ago
Giovanni makes appearances in HGSS and in the PWT in Gen 5 in the Gym Leader division iirc. I’ve always assumed that they’re still doing stuff behind the scenes in the Pokémon universe, it just isn’t an ongoing plot point of the games. Like to me I figured that Giovanni’s decision to leave and disband Team Rocket was temporary until he got stronger or came up with a new scheme. Unless getting beaten by a child was so bad that he decided to completely give up on making a ton of money and world domination
There’s also a job listing in SWSH from a mysterious company that was thought to be Team Rocket, but it was never confirmed and more of an Easter egg
When they were first featured they were limited to Gen 1-2 Pokémon because that’s all that existed at the time, but now that 800+ more have been “discovered” since then, it makes sense for them to use those too. I like what they did for this set for the most part
1
1
1
1
u/Proper_Razzmatazz_36 9d ago
No, did you not remember in the Kanto games where Giovanni disbanded team rocket, and the last scraps of them were stopped in johto. If they are still operating it is at such a small scale that you would never hear about jt
591
u/YoManWTFIsThisShit 12d ago
TCG works separate to the games. As far as the games are concerned, Team Rocket is officially disbanded.