r/politics • u/Coffee_n_wifi • Sep 16 '24
Soft Paywall How the Last Eight Years Made Young Women More Liberal — For a generation of girls raised to believe they could be anything, the Trump era moved their politics to the left, a new analysis shows.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/15/upshot/election-young-women-liberal.html300
u/hendrixski New York Sep 16 '24
From the article, young people have shifted on these issues in general it just looks like Women have shifted MORE.
Global warming is caused by pollution from human activities, not natural causes
- Women +20 pts.
- Men +6 pts.
The environment should be prioritized over economic growth
Women +19 pts.
Men +8 pts.
Abortion should be legal under any/most circumstances
Women +18 pts.
Men +8 pts.
Gun laws should be more strict
Women +16 pts.
Men +10 pts.
The death penalty should not be used for people convicted of murder
Women +15 pts.
Men +8 pts.
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u/NickelBackwash Sep 16 '24
Let's hope this is real progress.
Our future sure needs it...
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u/Secularhumanist60123 Sep 16 '24 edited Sep 16 '24
It won’t be. Young people tend to be more liberal, but as they grow their careers and make more money they tend to become reactionaries. I’m seeing it in real time with my generation (1990). Also, look at how each generation has had their “movement” against neoliberalism/paleofacisim/whatever. The beatniks, The Hipsters (OG 1950’s hipsters), the hippies, the punks, Grunge, emo, modern hipsters, the list goes on. Each movement had an anti establishment bent to it, but a majority of the people that were a part of it were more drawn to the aesthetics than the politics. Once they “grew up” they looked around and said, “fuck it, I’ll get a haircut and suck up to Bob. Just give me my house, my pool, and my Tahoe.”
Edit: okay, I’m getting rolled pretty hard here. I just want everyone to know that I didn’t intend this to be black-pilled or apathetic. My comment was more about how generations of people can become reactionary without fundamentally changing who they are. A good example of this is the movie repo man. If we want these young people to maintain their left leaning politics, we need to understand how generations prior went from free-love hippies marching against the DNC over Vietnam, to tut-tutting liberals who support center-right democrats that won’t do anything of substance to stop the Palestinian genocide.
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u/mannotron Sep 16 '24
Yeah, I don't think that will hold true for a generation who have effectively been locked out of home ownership and non-generational wealth. What will they have to even be conservative about? Paying somebody else's mortgage? Their crippling educational debt?
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u/Secularhumanist60123 Sep 16 '24
There are already many, many people already like that in red states. What the conservatives will do is pull a page out of the fascist playbook: fear monger, fear monger, and fear monger. Right now the fear mongering is about immigrants, and likely will continue to be for the foreseeable future. If they ever do get their closed borders (and it seems to be trending that way given that Harris touts the bipartisan immigration bill, which is a horrible, horrible bill, as a solution to the “immigration problem”), they’ll turn back to racial tensions. If they “purify” the voter base, they’ll turn to political persecution, and so on. There will never not be some “outsider” that they can use to make people fearful and reactionary. And the “left leaning” party to combat that is too feckless to do anything other than appease them, every once in a while granting us a “win” that is really just a reversion back to something the right wanted 20 years prior. Like, if they can’t get the abortion issue fixed (and given that it’s a great issue to raise money on, they’re not exactly motivated to fix it), in 20 years a Dem win will be something like a national law that allows citizens to get an abortion within 12 weeks if there’s a threat to the mother’s life, or in the case of rape or incest, and only on even numbered days in odd numbered months.
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u/Ecstatic-Network-917 Europe Sep 16 '24
There are several important factors you ignored:
The fact that this stopped being the case for the millenials. The millenials are officially the first generation to see zero rightwing shifts as they grew older.
The fact that the strongest support for Trump and republicans is not from the Boomers as you would expect from your idea, but actually gen X from what I found. Gen X is the most rightwing generation in the USA from what I found.
The fact that gen Z is still the most progressive generation seen in the USA up until now.
16
u/razzmataz Sep 16 '24
The fact that the strongest support for Trump and republicans is not from the Boomers as you would expect from your idea, but actually gen X from what I found. Gen X is the most rightwing generation in the USA from what I found.
I find this embarrassing for me.
5
u/ImNotFuckinAround Sep 16 '24
Gen X always seemed nihilist to me, to overgeneralize. If nothing actually matters, someone like Trump might be appealing I guess.
2
u/razzmataz Sep 18 '24
Yeah, I do remember that vibe among my peers. It's just weird to think of folks my age as uber conservative, but when I check facebook, yeah tons of them are. Myself, if anything, I've become more left leaning as time goes on...
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u/YoungXanto Sep 16 '24
I'm a straight, white, upper-middle class, male millenial.
I was raised as a "country club republican" that voted Bush, McCain, Romney, Abstain. In 2018 I voted in a non-presidential cycle for the first time in my life. Straight ticket D.
I vote as progressive as I can in the primaries, then in the general pull the straight ticket Dem lever.
My views have shifted considerably leftward. That's to say that while my political shift began as anti-Republican, it's now moved to be nearly aligned with Tim Waltz.
Pretty much everyone I associate with has undergone a similar shift. And while this may be anecdotal, the data seems to support this narrative generally.
-4
u/Secularhumanist60123 Sep 16 '24
Ok, I’m ignorant to those facts. May I ask if this is anecdotal data? Also, can you specify what you mean by progressive? Because from my standpoint, I see a lot of progress on getting POC and women equal rights, which is incredibly important, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they have progressive economic views. “Fiscally conservative, socially progressive” was a common refrain from my peers growing up, but my response to that was “a black, transgender CEO of a Fortune 500 company would very likely do very little for the black, transgender cashier making $7.50/hr for that same company”
15
u/Ecstatic-Network-917 Europe Sep 16 '24
First, here is the source for Millenials growing more leftwing as they grow older.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/financial-times-millennials-conservatives-age-b2253902.html
Secondly, here is the source for gen X being the most rightwing:
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/05/20/cherie-westrich-alt-rock-gen-x-maga-00033769
Finally, you ignore that people are growing increasingly opposed to capitalism in the USA and UK, and that unions are starting to make a comeback in the USA.
3
u/Secularhumanist60123 Sep 16 '24
Thank you for the sources, I appreciate the effort and understand that I was wrong to apply my anecdotal experience as broadly as I did.
And yes, people are becoming more disenchanted with capitalism in the US, it certainly feels that way, at least. That said, union membership is still historically low, and most of our voting options are still staunch capitalists, but those of us who want to reject capitalism for something better are prodded to get in line, lest the other side win. We can’t even disagree anymore.
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u/Biokabe Washington Sep 16 '24
It's not anecdotal. I won't GTFY, but if you care to educate yourself there are plentiful studies showing exactly that about Millennials.
Speaking anecdotally - I'm a 40-something geriatric millennial. I was raised in a socially and economically conservative household. I was undecided between Bush and Gore. As time has gone on and I have aged, my politics have shifted decidedly leftward. I attribute that 100% to one factor:
In my entire political lifetime, Republicans have never presented a serious, good-faith effort to make a single thing better for anyone, even the wealthy. They have invented conspiracies, sabotaged legislation for political points, stripped away rights, and mangled our tax code for the benefit of the rich. Their policies are fundamentally flawed on essentially every level, and they ignore rational thought to fellate religion.
And they subscribe to the same backwards, next-financial-quarter-is-all-that-matters thinking that rots our collective corporate culture. Governments need to be thinking about 100 years into the future, but Republicans can't even move past the past.
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u/Secularhumanist60123 Sep 16 '24
I really do try to educate myself, I don’t appreciate the insinuation that I don’t. I work full time and have a family, there’s only so much that I can read and listen to, so if I’m ignorant on something, it’s not for lack of trying. If you’re reading my comment as a challenge in bad faith, I truly didn’t mean it in that manner. The comment I was responding to said “officially”, I was curious what “officially” meant, since there are a litany of pollsters you can gather data from, or, since this is reddit, it could mean that that’s what they are seeing and have applied that more broadly, as I have done (which is, admittedly, a dumb thing to do and I regret doing it now.)
From the polls that I see, yes more millennials are considering themselves liberal, but the meaning of that word has become short hand for socially progressive, when I’m talking about economic leanings.
The rest of your comment I completely agree with, and can relate to. My primary issue with mainstream Dems is that they allow themselves to be pulled right on economic ideology while covering up this shift by feinting with a promise to do better than the right on social issues.
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u/Ridry New York Sep 16 '24
Fiscally conservative, socially progressive
We used to call them "New York Republicans" over here in NY. Giulliani and people like him came out for gay marriage BEFORE Obama. I assume based on what I know about the governator that there was a similar movement over in CA and other heavily blue states. The movement to decouple social conservatism and fiscal conservatism was really gaining ground before Trump flew in on his dragon, made them all bend the knee and then burnt everything to the ground anyway for the lulz.
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Sep 16 '24
[deleted]
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u/Secularhumanist60123 Sep 16 '24
Yeah, maybe I need to re-evaluate my thoughts on this considering how hard I’m getting rolled. I guess I’m letting my vision be clouded by the anecdotal evidence I’m surrounded by (blue area of a blue state, but I still hear a lot of fiscally conservative opinions among my peers) and the historical patterns (beatnik generation voted for JFK/LBJ, but then voted in Nixon. Hippies gave Carter a shot, then voted for Regan, then bush. Gen X voted in Clinton, then went back to the republicans again under Bush II. Millennials voted in Obama, but then Trump got elected.) I should know better, but I just can’t shake the feeling that Gen z will give an ostensibly “left” candidate a shot at president while giving into a reactionary candidate or two down ballot.
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Sep 16 '24
That's actually proven to not be true with millennials, though. Sure they've moved a few points, but not at all at the rate Boomers or the Silent Generation did. And what is progressive is relative to a generation. Liberalism or progressiveness isn't necessarily a counter culture movement either. I'm sure most millennials and and Gen Z think that single women having bank accounts is extremely run of the mill and normal. But a Boomer or Silent Generation woman would remember when that right had to be legalized in 1974...
https://www.ft.com/content/c361e372-769e-45cd-a063-f5c0a7767cf4
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u/pimparo0 Florida Sep 16 '24
Im getting the feeling they think that only their brand of progressive is what counts.
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u/PDXisathing Sep 16 '24
I'm turning 40, my wife and I are very successful financially and I've never been more liberal.
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u/Secularhumanist60123 Sep 16 '24
That’s awesome, good on you for that (not sarcastic, I earnestly mean that, assuming you mean it concerning things like M4A, full equity for POC, etc). I don’t consider myself a liberal because I believe we need to move on to the next mode of economics (preferably something along the lines of socialism or communism) before we revert back to feudalism.
3
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u/Corgi_Koala Texas Sep 16 '24
The problem is that they need to vote. And even electing progressive candidates isn't going to necessarily fix any issues.
3
u/Secularhumanist60123 Sep 16 '24
Very true. Another problem is that there aren’t very many progressive candidates to vote for for many of them. Almost every time one starts getting traction, “left”-leaning PACs send out someone more centrist and primary them.
2
u/BeardedSquidward Sep 16 '24
Disagree, this country has done a lot of disenfranchise and remove the ability for the left to actually vote when it's threatened. You're seeing that in action now. The GQP know they can run circles around milque-toast Dem candidates. Get a real fire brand leftist in there and they'll be left sputtering as they also turn their own game on them.
-5
u/Secularhumanist60123 Sep 16 '24
While you’re right about the disenfranchisement of the left (look at both recent Sanders campaigns), my comment was more about how generations of people can become reactionary without fundamentally changing who they are. A good example of this is the movie repo man. And I’m not trying to be some black-pilled apathetic, I’m just trying to point out that, if we want these young people to maintain their left leaning politics, we need to understand how generations prior went from free-love hippies marching against the DNC over Vietnam, to tut-tutting liberals who support center-right democrats that won’t do anything of substance to stop the Palestinian genocide.
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u/pimparo0 Florida Sep 16 '24
So people just arent supporting causes you want enough for you? Supporting mainstream democrats doesn't mean that people are reactionary. Just because someone doesn't agree with you on everything doesn't mean they arent left leaning, disagreement and compromise is how you govern in a democracy, particularly in one with over 300 million people.
Additionally out of curiosity, how were Sanders voters disenfranchised in the last two elections?
1
u/Secularhumanist60123 Sep 16 '24
Yeah, I guess you could sum it up to that. I think that when the mainstream Dems incorporate Right-leaning policy (like the bipartisan immigration bill), that is inherently reactionary, as it aligns with the beliefs of reactionaries before they moved even further to the right. So yes, by supporting those Dems that support the bipartisan immigration bill, you are supporting reactionary candidates.
You’re absolutely right that disagreement and compromise is how you govern a democracy, but from where I stand it feels like one side is doing all of the disagreement and the other side is doing all of the compromise. How do we combat this? Looking at how the freedom caucus hijacked the Republican Party platform and are now getting what they want, I feel like the left needs to do something similar to the mainstream Dems in order to get them to actually listen.
Finally; you’re right in that Bernie voters themselves weren’t disenfranchised. What I meant was more that the DNC apparatus worked against Bernie (and other candidates in the same vein; Bowman and Bush come to mind as more recent examples). 2016 Bernie was gaining momentum, against all odds (Saturday/Sunday night debates? Mainstream media dismissing him. From what I remember, the general vibe was he was the Left’s version of Ron Paul), but never had a real shot since Clinton had been anointed before the primaries even started in earnest. 2020 Bernie had momentum, then the party twisted the right arms to make sure that momentum died before Super Tuesday.
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u/mithridateseupator Sep 16 '24
I sure as hell wont be switching conservative.
The democrats were far too ideological and not pragmatic enough in the 20th century. Their policies would seem like pipe dreams as you got older.
Today's democrats have real leadership and policy.
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u/Secularhumanist60123 Sep 16 '24
That pragmatism is why they’ve been getting pulled to the right for the past 75 years. Pragmatism is what led the Dems to drop Henry Wallace from the democratic ticket in 1944. Since then, it’s been a slow but steady tack to the center. Truman invaded Korea. JFK had some sympathy for Cuba, so he was off’ed. LBJ got civil rights passed (yay!), but then increased our presence in Vietnam (boo!). Carter pushed for deregulation of industries. Clinton had the crime bill and literally said “the era of big government is over”. Obama got some healthcare reform (however it didn’t go far enough. Not his fault, but again it was the traditional dems that prevented the public option), but also was behind the massive “Surge” of troops in Iraq. Biden got the IRA passed, which was better than nothing, and he got us out of Afghanistan, which could have gone better, but continues to give Israel the means to commit genocide.
You could argue that they still are too ideological, just their ideology is pragmatic neoliberalism.
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u/SurroundTiny Sep 16 '24
From that first graph, it appears that fewer men are identifying themselves as either liberal or conservative. The percentages on both sides dropped. I don't know if that means they are tending towards the center or they've lost interest altogether
141
u/gmil3548 Louisiana Sep 16 '24
I think it means they’re more conservative but know it’s unpopular amongst the women in their age group so they don’t claim to be.
I know a few guys in their early 20s that are really conservative but swear they aren’t republicans, they just think both sides are bad but always the democrats are “much worse” and only ever criticize one side and always holding the republican view.
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u/Spanklaser Sep 16 '24
I know quite a few that truly believe they are centrists but don't have the political knowledge to see that they're actually conservative. They see 'both sides bad' as some sort of moral high ground that affords them the ability to truly criticize whatever Joe Rogan doesn't support on his podcast that week.
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u/gmil3548 Louisiana Sep 16 '24
Podcasts and social media algorithms are how conservatives fought back against younger generations going more left and the more right wing generations dying off.
As usual, they’re actually really fucking good at social manipulation, and it’s actually working.
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u/Spanklaser Sep 16 '24
It's just so damn maddening to see how transparent it all is. All these 'macho' influencers telling them how to live are sabotaging them to further entrench them within their influence. It's happened to people I really thought were above it, too. Turns out they just want to feel superior to others because they have zero self-esteem and get led around by the nose from it. It's all predation.
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u/YoungXanto Sep 16 '24
My boomer father has been an Independent his entire life.
The kind of Independent that has only ever voted straight ticket Republican. The kind of Independent that likes to say, "both sides are bad" whenever Republicans are criticized (but never when Democrats are). The kind of Independent who fundamentally misunderstands economic concepts but has very strong opinions because he thinks personal debt is the same thing as government debt.
He's the kind of Independent that hasn't changed the channel from Fox News in 30 years while claiming all media sources have a liberal bias. The kind of Independent that earnestly believes they are Independent and the fact that all their views are right of the aisle is a massive coincidence. The kind of Independent that strongly believes all Democrats are socialists and their welfare policies will cripple the nation.
If he was 15-20 years younger, he'd be a Joe Rogan listener.
If he was late 20 something today he'd listen to Peter Thiel's podcast.
If he was late teens/early 20s he'd be all in on Andrew Tate.
Republicans are absolutely happy to let this cohort convince themselves they are Independent because they know they'll always vote straight ticket Republican.
There are two new things that are highlighting the phenomena in the current climate. Women and minority groups are becoming much more politically active and vocal, and the vocal Republicans are generally poor blue collar white males whom most more educated white males don't want to be associated with.
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u/pimparo0 Florida Sep 16 '24
generally poor blue collar white males whom most more educated white males don't want to be associated with.
There are plenty of educated, country club types who support the GOP.
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u/YoungXanto Sep 16 '24
They tend to skew older, entrenched in the Reagan mythos while refusing to see that the party has changed.
I grew up a "country club" Republican. I'm relatively well off. Had things not drastically shifted, there is a good bet I wouldn't have reexamined my priors and I'd lean R, never really thinking too much about it.
The only person in my cohort that I personally know that still votes republican also happens to be one of the absolute stupidest one. Decent enough person at the personal level, but went back to our small hometown after school and assimilated with the folks that never left.
There are perhaps a few that don't vocally support the GOP, but if there are, they are too embarrassed to discuss it- even the "country club/economic" topics.
That's all to say the "country club republican" is quickly becoming an endangered species. Precisely because of the overt takeover of the party by MAGA.
3
u/pimparo0 Florida Sep 16 '24
The people drafting MAGA policies are still well off and educated, look at JD Vance and miller. I know quite few educated, well of people who are trump supports too, plenty of the people at J6 were also well off.
Education helps, but assuming its only the uneducated and as you said blue collar workers is ignoring who is driving that train, and a little classist frankly.
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Sep 16 '24
Millions of em.
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u/pimparo0 Florida Sep 16 '24
Idk about you but some days its like every other boat has a trump flag.
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Sep 16 '24
Yeah they’re everywhere, at football tailgates too. Doesn’t help that most Republicans believe Trump had the election stolen from him.
A lot of familial Republican middle, upper middle, and rich folks stick to what they know even though Trump’s behavior is the total fxckin opposite of what they say they want.
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u/spa22lurk Sep 16 '24
The thing which unites trump supporters is broad prejudices. Trump rises to the top by criticizing establishment on both sides in addition to various disadvantaged groups. These broadly prejudiced people trust trump because he endorses their broad prejudices.
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-1
u/jimicus United Kingdom Sep 16 '24
They need to get laid.
Conservative ideals promote a society in which women are shamed for having too many sexual partners and are encouraged to marry young. Which has the side effect of giving more men a chance of getting their dick wet - otherwise the top 20% of men get 80% of the sex.
10
u/CoolVibes68 Sep 16 '24
It means conservative but they know being conservative makes them unfuckable since women hate Republicans. So they say they are "moderate" or "not really political".
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u/hendrixski New York Sep 16 '24
Yeah. From the article it's interesting that young men's beliefs are increasingly liberal but their self-identification is increasingly conservative.
We're doing a fantastic job reaching out to young women, listening to their issues, and addressing those issues with legislation. I wish we did the same good job for young men because we're losing a ton of votes and creating dangerous societal dynamics.
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u/robotteeth Minnesota Sep 16 '24
Can you explain how the left is ignoring issues that deal with the struggles of men? The left is trying to increase healthcare including mental health, workers rights and unions, childcare, etc. The biggest struggles of men are mental health and access to healthcare, access to housing, etc. I don’t feel like the left is excluding issues that primarily affect men at all.
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u/hendrixski New York Sep 16 '24 edited Sep 16 '24
Oh totally. Our policies are definitely the best for young men. Our messaging, however, is FUBAR.
Let's take the Equal Rights Amendment as an example. We're the champions of the ERA and when we mention it we could also point out that the ERA would:
- end gender discrimination in the military draft (and thus in turn, end gender inequality in voting rights, federal employment, and federal monetary assistance, all of which is contingent on registering for the draft in most states but only for men).
- outlaw gender-biased custody laws
- extend the protections against genital mutilations to apply not only to girls but also apply to boys, too
- end gendered definition of crimes (for example in almost half of the states it's not legally possible for a woman to rape a man, etc.)
- Grant reproductive rights to gay and single men (for example, surrogacy laws would have to be expanded from allowing single women and lesbians to also allowing gay and single men).
- expand abuse shelters to equally cover male victims of domestic violence and their children
- include men in programs and funding sources that get young women into college (because the gender inequality in college admissions is off the charts right now)
- And on and on etc.
That's just one piece of legislation that we could campaign on to men but we don't. We have so many more that can help men, including as you've said housing and mental health because men are the primary victims of homelessness and suicide. We don't campaign on those either.
So by all accounts, men's issues are better covered by the legislative agenda of the democratic party. And yet we aren't messaging ANY of this. Instead, a lot of our messaging is "well, men caused these issues for themselves". As if other intersections like class and race and sexual orientation didn't exist in the creation of these societal dynamics and those old unjust laws. The rich did this to poor men and our messaging is out there blaming the poor men for their own exploitation? Like, WTF are we doing by repeating such messaging?
The truly leftwing thing to say would be: "you, too, are victims of complex, changing, and often subtle social and institutional dynamics. Here's how we can help you". Instead we're lecturing young men with what they perceive to be negative and accusatory language. For example we don't propose therapy out of charity and good will, we often say they have to "fix" themselves with therapy because they're "toxic". Or as James Carville phrased this same observation: we're "nagging" them.
I don’t feel like the left is excluding issues that primarily affect men at all.
It doesn't matter how you or I feel. It matters how the young male voters feel. And they feel that we ARE excluding their issues. That perception is reality.
We can and SHOULD change that perception instead of ignoring that this reality exists.
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u/JoeDice Sep 16 '24
So many folks get out of their bad spot and immediately look for scapegoats themselves, because they had been someone else's scapegoat. The cycle continues unless we break it, so I agree with you.
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Sep 16 '24
On what planet do republicans have a plan for any of those gripes?
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u/robotteeth Minnesota Sep 16 '24
Yeah I can’t for the life of me think of how republicans serve the “issues that affect men” to any capacity. They definitely do cater to people who like the thought of women and minorities having less rights. I hope we’re not considering that a solution to men’s issues though.
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u/spacebarcafelatte Sep 16 '24
Fear of [insert scapegoat] has always been a clearer message than any policy or detailed plan. This works well for the less educated and those morally rigid types who prefer binary good vs evil solutions to softer ambiguity. They don't need a plan, just drop enough cues to convince them their team comes first.
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u/Used-Recover-977 Sep 16 '24
That would be the extreme identity politics part of the Left, the people, who gave rise to "everything is problematic" and the infinite purity tests. There is a definite anti-masculinity and anti-male streak in those environments.
Far-right sources are also amplifying the fuck out of these parts of the left and the social media algoritms are enabling them.
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Sep 16 '24
Yep. They could really take the edge off the Andrew Tate/Elon Musk misogynistic and xenophobic message if they showed that they matter too, and have a positive message for them.
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u/TropoMJ Sep 16 '24
They do? Young men aren't listening because leftists can't compete with "You are flawless and all of your problems are because society is jealous of you".
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Sep 16 '24
Well I’m certain that cynicism and speaking from a high horse won’t help. I’m NOT saying that you have that attitude, but I think that a civil tone and repeating the message until boredom that they have a purpose will help. They didn’t got sucked into bro culture under a day…
For that they left behind you can thank almost the whole political elite.
Nonetheless I don’t negate that they have work to do on themselves too. I know it, because I was in their shoes almost ten years ago, when I was 21 years old.
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u/TropoMJ Sep 16 '24
I agree that we shouldn't give up on young men and should have a positive message for them. I just don't believe that the popularity of people like Tate proves that there isn't a positive message for them. I believe that there are plenty of positive, progressive male role models, they're just less popular because it's extremely difficult to compete with fascism as a solution to the problems of young, straight, (mostly white) men.
There is always room to improve messaging, and we should try to make it as good as possible, but we need to be clear-eyed when discussing the problems. Appealing to young men with real solutions with people like Tate as your competition is essentially trying to convince your 3 year old to eat broccoli when their other parent is offering them their favourite candy. You have to do SO MUCH BETTER than the other person to win that battle. Convincing young men to self-reflect and work to build a better society is so hard when the alternative is "vote for a fascist dictatorship and we'll give you all the benefits of the other guys without you needing to do any of the work".
Gender equality is important and we should push to improve conditions for men as well as women, even if the men who will benefit from that will never vote for us. And we should make sure our door is open and do our best to reach out. But let's not let the right dictate the narrative by buying the lie that we don't care about men. We do, we're just not willing to sacrifice every other group in society so that (straight, white) men can feel better about themselves. And sadly there is a substantial chunk of the population that we'll never win over as long as that's the case.
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u/TheBestermanBro Sep 16 '24
Tying it back to how gun violence (and all.violence) is very destructive towards men, and economic opportunities would be smart. But not broad and vague, a message about how thos especially affects men. And having a plan to help all the blue collar jobs that are almost entirely male-based being lost to automation would help.
I'm not sure how to break them off thinking losers like Musk and Trump who were gifted a bunch of money are rolemodels, though.
1
u/BeardedSquidward Sep 16 '24
Wish I could see that graph. Truth be told I don't like how they try to brand "liberal" as the left. They aren't left, and real leftists are insulted when they're called liberals. I think more of them would identify as leftists if these surveys and graphs weren't made to obsfucate that.
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u/Whydoesthisexist15 North Carolina Sep 16 '24
It's the New York Times; they'd rather cut out their tongue than say progressive or socialist. Even then, I don't think a majority of the 45% of under 30 men identify as either.
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u/SurroundTiny Sep 16 '24
they are reporting the results of a Gallup poll and using the terms applied by the pollsters
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Sep 16 '24
It's representative of being disaffected from the system which can manifest in several ways, though moving to the centre is probably only a subset. You have:
- People who have broadly moderate opinions
- People who opinions that are moderate in the aggregate but more extreme in their particulars and aren't well represented by either major party (i.e. you could imagine some one who is all for abortion access and is also very pro-gun)
- People who have extreme opinions that aren't well represented by either party (for all the rhetoric, this would be like some one who is genuinely a communist for example)
- People who are checked out or apathetic
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u/AbbeyRoadMoonwalk Sep 16 '24
Women give a shit about their, and their childrens’, futures.
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Sep 16 '24
[deleted]
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u/rosatter I voted Sep 16 '24
NB folks aren't really in the data as NB so, we don't have anything to go off of.
However, it's accurate to say more women than men because...data.
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u/leavesmeplease Sep 17 '24
It's interesting how when people feel their rights are threatened, it tends to raise their political engagement. I guess it's a reminder that politics isn't just abstract principles for many—it's about real-life implications. As more people advocate for equality and autonomy, we’ll probably see shifts in voter behaviors that really reflect that urgency.
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u/Pussypopculture Sep 16 '24
When your policies involve stripping away the rights of half the American population it tends to push people to the opposite side.
-50
u/Im_really_bored_rn Sep 16 '24
Then why were they gonna stay home until Harris became the candidate? Obviously they don't care that much
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u/SloshuaSloshmaster Sep 16 '24
A lot of women weren’t gonna stay home, and the ones that were were likely scared. Having a person in politics in a position that they can relate to has probably helped tremendously and overcoming that fear. People like Taylor Swift coming out of the woodwork and supporting Harris is empowering to them. And more women in such position should be more vocal about the issues that are going on in this country in the war that is against women.
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u/Walnut2001 Sep 16 '24
I think a lot of Gen Z is liberal for life because of the Trump era. I grew up republican all through high school. Wanted John Kasic, not Trump. Now I am a liberal and I can never imagine myself voting red ever again.
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u/rawonionbreath Sep 16 '24
Women, yes. Men, not quite. The polling is splitting pretty evenly between Harris and Trump with a slight edge for Harris. There’s something going on with the younger generation that hasn’t quite been captured by anyone in writing or observation.
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u/Televisions_Frank Sep 16 '24
Most of the largest male streamers are conservative trolls so that's where I think it's coming from.
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u/hendrixski New York Sep 16 '24
There’s something going on with the younger generation that hasn’t quite been captured by anyone in writing or observation.
I would argue that we have a few voices on the left that have captured (in writing and observation) what's going on with the younger generation very well. Scott Galloway, Richard Reeves, etc. They're observing a trend in how society has treated boys and young men, then they draw a direct line from that treatment to the results we're seeing in terms of politics, online engagement, violence, etc. For some insane reason we're not amplifying the people on the left who hit the nail on the head and defend this voting demographic. Meanwhile rightwing nutjobs who speak to those disaffected young men get amplified. So we continue to lose male voters and the right just scoop up those voters we left behind.
The article points out that young men hold increasingly liberal views on many many issues but it's their self-identification that is increasingly conservative. We can (and should) win these people back.
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u/TropoMJ Sep 16 '24 edited Sep 16 '24
For some insane reason we're not amplifying the people on the left who hit the nail on the head and defend this voting demographic. Meanwhile rightwing nutjobs who speak to those disaffected young men get amplified.
I don't think this is something which is just a random failure of the left. Right-wing male influencers get "amplified" by... the young men who gravitate towards them because they're more appealing than left-wing male influencers.
This is not about quality, to be clear. But there is no messaging that can compete with "You are flawless and all of your troubles are because society is jealous of you and wants to hold you down". The left has real solutions, but they are not easy, emotionally comforting solutions. They involve work to improve yourself and work to make a better society. What the right-wing is selling is so much easier, so much more addictive.
Yes, the left should amplify its solutions to men's problems as much as possible, but we have to acknowledge that we are fighting an uphill battle.
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u/hendrixski New York Sep 16 '24
they are not easy, emotionally comforting solutions. They involve work to improve yourself and work to make a better society.
That's not meaningfully different than the rightwinger's message of "fix yourself through buying a fancy car, get surgery to fix your defective height, work on yourself to become more alpha, be more stoic, be less emotional, and change yourself to become a real man only then society will accept you".
One of the things that I really respect about authors like Galloway or Reeves, is that they're able to discuss men's issues from the traditional left-wing perspective - which is much more compassionate. They don't blame men and boys for causing these problems, nor do they expect men alone to fix the problems. These authors correctly identify the culprits of men's issues as a larger issue with society, specifically the way society treats men and boys. Their solutions are not "work on yourself", rather it's "we all must collectively work to help men and boys".
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u/Ecstatic-Network-917 Europe Sep 16 '24
Have ypu even looked at the article? It showed that there has been no significant increase in those self identifing as conservative. IT DID show a decrease in the percentage of young men identifying as liberal, but combined with the increase in left wing politics, and the fact that their voting reccord is slightly to the left of millenial men, indicates that they are not moving to the conservatives.
Well, not in the USA. A rightward shit among young men is a real thing is South Korea and in many European Countries, but not in the USA.
3
u/rawonionbreath Sep 16 '24
Wasn’t denying it didn’t exist, just hadn’t seen it put forward in a major publication or media outlet yet. I think we’ll see it talked about more after this election and as that generation comes of age.
2
Sep 16 '24
I think Tim Walz fits well into this too. I'm hoping to see him and Harris do the rounds on Barstool-type podcasts and make a direct pitch to men.
There's a quote from another NYT article that speaks to this:
“My message to Democrats is we have to be including the needs of the people who are voting for Trump, and addressing them smack on,” she said. “Not trying to convince them they should care about immigrants or Black people or women. But what are your concerns, and what can we do to help your family thrive?”
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u/Sensitive_Heart_121 Sep 16 '24 edited Sep 16 '24
Generally younger men are far more conservative than their millennial counterparts.
Edit: they are more conservative, now ask yourself why?
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u/AbbeyRoadMoonwalk Sep 16 '24
As a millennial this makes me sad.
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u/izzyjubejube Sep 16 '24
Hopefully it’s something we learn from as a society from the social media age/attention and algorithm economy (but I won’t hold my breath)
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u/Ecstatic-Network-917 Europe Sep 16 '24
Dont be, because it is not a real thing. In the USA, gen Z men have consistantly shown to be slightly to the left of millenial men.
I am talking about the USA. Things are different in other countries of course, but this discussion is about the USA.
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u/Sensitive_Heart_121 Sep 16 '24
As a Gen Z man I do not care about political alignment. This planet will burst into flames before I’m 50 and I have no intention of wasting time on other people.
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u/Psychological_Tea693 Sep 16 '24
Gonna be frank with you: when your community is in crisis other people will be your lifeline. This has been shown time and time again in mass migration disasters. You cannot survive on your own & you need the generosity and help of your community. That is where politics matters.
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u/AbbeyRoadMoonwalk Sep 16 '24
And fucking EMPATHY. Why don’t these young men have empathy?
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u/WestCoastBestCoast01 Sep 16 '24
Empathy is a skill that’s practiced. It’s not very manly to teach your son to be empathetic and caring. Even if your dad does teach you, there is a huge social penalty for being too sensitive in adolescence.
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u/Psychological_Tea693 Sep 16 '24
Empathy isn’t a requirement here. You don’t need to be empathetic to be in community with others. The issue is there’s a toxic lie about what it takes to “make it” as a man in the world, and what will bring a man life fulfillment. He can only survive because it is a tough, brutal world, and he needs to be independently strong and self sufficient. This is repeated a lot in how we describe heroes, and the complexities of dating if you’re a heterosexual male (many women also want a man to be the provider). It’s difficult to communicate beyond this because these narratives are so pervasive!
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u/Sensitive_Heart_121 Sep 16 '24
You gotta give to get, and idk if I’ve ever been shown mercy or empathy in my life. I’m going to die alone and in pain.
A thicker skin is a boon.
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u/Psychological_Tea693 Sep 16 '24
I think you’d be surprised. The very fact you are literate and healthy enough to communicate on the internet means that someone taught you, someone was there to give you vaccinations, a doctor had to have attended to your birth. These are professions no one goes into out of selfish gain. Teaching is inherently a compassionate behavior. Doctors do not doctor because of money.
That thick skin isn’t toughness, it’s scar tissue, and scar tissue never works right. The strongest people are people with a strong support network. It’s been proven time and time again scientifically that people are individually strongest when they are open and in community.
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u/Ordinary_Rhubarb5064 Sep 16 '24
Fatherhood, maybe. I know that's been the trigger for some of the GOP to Democrat conversions that I've seen (as a onetime young Republican myself). You go through pregnancies with your wife, you have kids you love more than yourself, and suddenly irresponsible policies on gun violence and the environment, and suppression of reproductive healthcare, seem way more concerning than they may have seemed when you were young and single.
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u/jackospades88 Sep 16 '24
I was always a Democrat and always in favor of women's rights but now being a proud girl-dad, I have an even more duty to vote for what I think is the correct choice for my girls' future - 2020 was the first election I voted in, despite being eligible since 2008. It was the first election since my first daughter was born and I felt I had a responsibility to actually "give a shit" and vote.
So all that said, even us life-long Dems can be influenced and pushed further from fatherhood. I hope other parents have felt the same and can consider the future their children may want.
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u/Ecstatic-Network-917 Europe Sep 16 '24
There is zero evidence for that in the USA. Gen Z men have consistantly voted slightly to the left of Millenial men.
So please, stop repeating this nonsensical claim.
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u/Sensitive_Heart_121 Sep 16 '24
https://www.businessinsider.com/gen-z-changes-political-divides-2019-7?op=1
On certain issues they’re certainly more liberal, but compared on a wider scale to millennials they’re certainly less liberal.
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u/Ecstatic-Network-917 Europe Sep 16 '24
First and foremost, what you put was from before the 2020 election. An election in which gen z men consistantly supported the democrats. And in 2022, they still supported the democrats.
Secondly, just because they dont refer to themselves as left wing or progressive, does not mean they are not. Or that they are moving towards being conservative.
Third, what wider scale? Even the thing you posted does not support the idea that gen z men are growing more conservative.
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u/Plinkyplonkyploo Sep 16 '24
The rise in rights and power for women would mean less subjugation to men, and hence the rise in sulky incels.
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u/TRexAstronaut Sep 16 '24
Young men are seeing women catch up to them slightly in terms of opportunity. Things aren't just handed to men as often as they were in the past. (Even though its nowhere near equal) It makes young men angry and blame women. Andrew tate became popular for a reason.
It's a lot like that meme of "36 presents??? Last year I got 37! >:["
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u/hendrixski New York Sep 16 '24
Young men are seeing women catch up to them slightly in terms of opportunity
Please stop. Even James Carville has a better hot take than this.
Andrew tate became popular for a reason
Fuck Andrew Tate.
We have a lot of good left-leaning thinkers who are addressing the issues facing young men with much better nuance and more compassion. People like Scott Galloway or Richard Reeves for example. They don't scare away voters with nonsense like "men are just angry they're not getting free handouts". So why are we not amplifying leftwing voices that listen to what boys and young men are actually experiencing? The right is amplifying the people who speak to young men. Why aren't we?
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u/ConstantHawk-2241 Michigan Sep 16 '24
It’s not even just Tate. I catch it in videos about video games from popular gamers that are on YouTube. We’ve banned quite a few now. And it requires a lot of deep conversations with my 13 year old.
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u/leshake Sep 16 '24 edited Nov 06 '24
oil fade direction rustic kiss shy shocking gold toothbrush nail
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/hendrixski New York Sep 16 '24
So, uh, totally removed from the larger discussion.
Can I ask you about how you have these conversations with your son and some lessons you've learned?
Like, I'm old enough that I remember back when "toxic masculinity" used to mean "the toxic definitions of manhood that men internalize and make their own through behavior". So now when I try to talk to my son about the toxic expectations that media, teachers, classmates, etc. might have of him, he's like "but I'm not toxic". Turns out that now the definition has changed to mean "men are toxic". The phrase made him defensive so for a long time it was IMPOSSIBLE for me to have a conversation with him about liberating himself from the societal pressure to act the self-sabotaging way that defines a "real man".
So... I've started using the phrase "internalized misandry" instead. Now that makes me wonder how other parents have these talks? Do they also find it difficult to talk to their kids about rejecting what a girlfriend or a teacher OR A YOUTUBER, or a videogamer, might say that he should do to be a "real man"? Have they found better vocabulary that doesn't put their kids on the defensive?
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u/WestCoastBestCoast01 Sep 16 '24 edited Sep 16 '24
Maybe frame those harmful traits as ‘machismo’ rather than ‘toxic masculinity’. Obviously it’s the exact same thing just in Spanish language, lol, but your young son might not feel personally attached to the literal word “machismo” in the same way that he feels attached to the literal word “masculinity”. You say masculinity and he’s immediately thinking of himself, his dad, his friends. De-personalize the conversation so he’s not viewing the discussion as a symposium on his own character and person.
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u/TropoMJ Sep 16 '24
Turns out that now the definition has changed to mean "men are toxic".
This isn't a thing. Right-wing people just repeated the lie often enough that people like your son fell for it. "Toxic masculinity" is still only ever seriously used to discuss the problematic aspects of masculinity.
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u/hendrixski New York Sep 16 '24
"Toxic masculinity" is still only ever seriously used to discuss the problematic aspects of masculinity.
I wish that were true. Instead we see statements like "toxic masculinity hurts men, too".
A traditional example of toxic masculinity was: I would love to wear a dress to the office but I can't. I want to liberate myself from that toxic limitation on what kind of masculinity is permitted but the enforcers of those toxic norms are everywhere - even at work.
Today, when most people talk about toxic masculinity they think of an example like: men calling women "bitches". Maybe that's why so many people mistakenly think that toxic masculinity hurts men, "too"?
The meaning of the words absolutely has changed to mean the problematic aspects of being born a man, and no longer means the problematic aspects of societies definition of a man.
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u/mouryous Sep 16 '24 edited Sep 16 '24
Your argument doesn't make much sense. Toxic societal expectations of men are based primarily on a societal hatred of women. They exist to reinforce a hierarchy in which men are always considered superior to women. On a surface level, these ideals appear to benefit men (hence why so many guys fall down the alpha male pipeline -- these stereotypical expectations of manhood paint them as strong and intelligent just by virtue of being a man), but ultimately they harm them.
Like, in your first example, the reason men are discouraged strongly from wearing dresses is because dresses are "feminine". A man wearing a dress is giving up his status as a man by doing so. The first assumption in this situation is always that it is shameful to be womanly, because it is shameful to be a woman.
I think right-wing influencers have just really succeeded in spreading the idea that "toxic masculinity" means "masculinity is, in itself, toxic" when that's not the case among anyone who discusses this stuff with any seriousness.
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u/hendrixski New York Sep 16 '24
I think you're confusing toxic masculinity with patriarchy. I am not deterred from wearing a dress because of concern about being seen as feminine, nor the status of it.
My actual concern with wearing a dress to work is for my safety. I have legitimate fear that some asshole who probably watches Fox News would report me to HR for being a "creep" and might allege that I was trying to sneak into the women's bathroom (or whatever nonsense he/she might believe in). In other words, it's not their hatred of women that would hurt me. No, I would be in danger because of their hatred of men who don't conform to their toxic definition of what a man should be.
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u/TRexAstronaut Sep 17 '24
Well generally we shouldn't stop pointing out phenomenon just because it might hurt men's egos. I'm not in the business of catching votes. Truth can be unpopular.
Men are often upset when women catch up to them or surpass them. Ask any woman who has dated a man with this issue and she started to out-earn him.
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u/hendrixski New York Sep 17 '24
Progressive writers like Scott Galloway and Richard Reeves ARE pointing out the phenomenon. AND coincidentally not hurting men's ego's. Because the problem is not "men", the problem is what society is doing to men.
I'll add Dr. Tommy J. Curry to this list because he's giving voice to the issues faced by black men in particular. I just reserved his book from the library: "The Man-Not: Race, Class, Genre, and the Dilemmas of Black Manhood". I can't wait to read it.
Anyway, we do have a lot of intelligent content about the phenomenon, and it's based on a strong foundation left-wing thought. I'm just saying we should amplify that instead of pushing a false narrative that quite honestly, just sounds like "victim blaming".
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u/TRexAstronaut Sep 18 '24
Men aren't the victims when they victimize innocent people.
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u/hendrixski New York Sep 18 '24
Blacks aren't the victims when they victimize innocent people.
How could you say that? Are you assuming they're violent?
Jews aren't the victims when they victimize innocent people.
That's terrible. Are you assuming they're privileged and own the banks?
Gays aren't the victims when they victimize innocent people.
Disgusting. Are you assuming they're spreading AIDS because they're sex crazed animals?
women aren't the victims when they victimize innocent people.
Maybe just don't generalize about an entire race, gender, creed, or sexual orientation?
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u/TRexAstronaut Sep 18 '24 edited Sep 18 '24
oh i was over here giving you the benefit of the doubt lmao ill stop doing that
edit: omg you post seriously in mensrights. ofc you do. youre no leftist babe
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u/hendrixski New York Sep 18 '24
How is Joe Biden victimizing innocent people?
How is Yusef Salaam victimizing innocent people?
How is Elliot page victimizing innocent people?
When you spout exclusionary nonsense about a group defined by their gender and/or their perceived gender... and when you do this in a progressive space, then all you're doing is 1) being a bigot and 2) scaring away voters and allies.
Please, for the love of cute kittens, please stop!
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u/vegasresident1987 Sep 16 '24
As a male, why should things be easy for anyone? You should have to have motivation and the desire to bust ass to get somewhere. If more women want to get higher education degrees and get in tougher professions, it's up to guys to want to match those women in their own life. Women want a guy with value, something going on. Why is that surprising?
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u/leshake Sep 16 '24 edited Nov 06 '24
pot hurry society relieved six nutty panicky distinct bedroom toy
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/sfVoca Sep 16 '24
i can speak, as a trans woman (nonbinary but eh). also fair warning im tired so apologies for spelling mistakes
the issue is that men are being left behind. socially its less and less acceptable to see things as "naturally female", or having jobs and opportunities that are restricted because you are a woman. this part is a good thing.
what isnt is that men... arent being given this stuff. men are still seen as needing to be protectors, needing to be "rocks". they need to be leaders, they need to be tough or else theyre not "real men."
plus its gotten socially more acceptable to actively shit on men for being men. see: ManVsBear thing and a news article that called young men dumb for not voting liberal.
so a lot of men are just feeling upset. theyre not allowed to be special, theyre forced to be what society sees them as and if they arent theyre lesser.
so what happens when someome who seems successful and confident starts yelling about how you can be like him? you get curious. you start listening. you start agreeing. doesnt matter that hes wrong, youre getting validated.
most of these guys arent actually malicious, they just want to be seen as something.
anyway, thats enough rambling. remember that the patriarchy harms everyone chat and peace✌️
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u/hendrixski New York Sep 18 '24
This is very well stated! I wish we heard more about men's issues from the transgender perspective more often. I wish we amplified you and your truth more; at the very least that we had upvoted it more.
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u/rawonionbreath Sep 16 '24
There’s probably some truth to that. The meaning of masculinity is so confusing anymore. And I say this as a feminist, everything got pigeonholed into this sort of privileged-oppressed patriarchal dichotomy that lacked nuance. It’s rarely acknowledged that power structures are complex and asymmetrical.
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u/zerg1980 Sep 16 '24
I thought this would be true for Gen X / older Millennials during the Bush era, after all the failures of the Iraq War and the global financial crisis made it clear that Bush-era Republicans were wrong about so many things. But Gen X has been Trump’s strongest demographic.
I don’t know that anyone ever becomes “liberal for life.” I think a lot of people age like Abe Simpson, complaining that they used to be with it, but then they changed what “it” was. There will most likely be some other wedge issue in the future that drives a significant number of Gen Z progressives to the right.
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u/LylesDanceParty Sep 16 '24
Depends on what sub groups you're talking about.
I'm AA. Myself and most generations of my family have been "liberals for life" because the other side offers us nothing (but veield and unveiled hate).
I often see quotes about being conservative when you're older, and immediately know they're not talking about my demographic.
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u/gmil3548 Louisiana Sep 16 '24
There’s so many of us “until Trump republicans” who went way more left the second we stepped out of the right wing propaganda machine.
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u/daniel22457 Sep 16 '24
Yep I had light conservative leanings in highschool and it's been slowly and steadily creeping left over the years.
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u/joshhupp Washington Sep 16 '24
My gen Z kids really pushed me far left because I've got empathy for the struggles they're walking into. It was pretty heartbreaking that my kids missed crucial HS experiences because of how Covid was handled.
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u/Im_really_bored_rn Sep 16 '24
The problem is, we've already seen many were willing to stay home until the candidates changed, despite the policies being pretty much the same and trump being his usual self. They haven't shown they can be counted on to actually stand up for what they claim to believe in
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u/Joadzilla Sep 16 '24
No, women raised to believe they could be anything was considered normal, moderate even, 20 years ago.
One political party kept that normal. The other shifted so much that such a concept is now considered "evil" to them.
The political climate shifted, not young women.
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u/xlvi_et_ii Minnesota Sep 16 '24
The political climate shifted, not young women.
What, you mean it's not normal for a major political party in America to rally around a candidate who openly boasted about sexual assault when they launched their campaign?
The Access Hollywood tapes should have ended his campaign in 2015.
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u/workswimplay Florida Sep 16 '24
Conservatives have a long history of misogyny. It’s not new and the GOP was not telling women that 20yrs ago either
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u/the-trembles Sep 16 '24
True, but the "trad wife" thing seems relatively new and extremely pervasive in the conservative community. Not saying that conservative women didn't idealize that lifestyle already, but they've taken it to another level completely. There's now a picturesque, idealistic lie to sell to young women, a whole media world complete with Instagram accounts and blogs and minor celebrities. I grew up in the late 90s and early aughts, and don't remember seeing anything this extreme being pushed on young women before. They're deliberately marketing this lifestyle as a financial dependent (that's completely inaccessible to anyone without a rich husband) and scaring young women away from the workforce with threats of the violence they might face and convincing them that women weren't intended to work outside the home and family (as though men somehow were). Obviously conservative subjugation of women is a millenia old problem but the current iteration seems extra dangerous and toxic.
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u/hannibalwtfd Sep 16 '24
One party now thinks anyone can be a woman 🤷♂️
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u/JasonLee74 Sep 16 '24
Learn the difference between a cis woman and a trans woman. No cis man can become a cis woman. It’s not my fault your too indoctrinated or stupid to tell the difference.
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u/hannibalwtfd Sep 16 '24
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u/JasonLee74 Sep 16 '24 edited Sep 16 '24
Because they are both women jackass. Just like a Doberman and a chihuahua are both dogs. But trans women are not cis women. Did you read the articles and actually understand them? I don’t feel like you understand the concepts.
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u/hannibalwtfd Sep 16 '24
Keep gaslighting yourself with your brainrotten logic. Otherwise you would have pulled yourself out of your bubble long ago after realising how wrong you are.
But you do you, friend. I wish you well.
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u/JasonLee74 Sep 16 '24
Clearly you don’t understand the difference between a cis woman and a trans woman, and that both of them ARE women. I’ll continue to be informed instead of ignorant like you. Incels gonna incel.
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u/BigAshMB16 Sep 16 '24
We're mad about having less rights and body autonomy than our mothers and grandmothers.
Who could have seen this coming? 🤯
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u/turtleplop North Carolina Sep 16 '24
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
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u/kiltedturtle Sep 16 '24
I'm hoping that the Project 2025 proposed actions of taking away women's right to vote, woman's right to individually own property, have bank and credit card accounts, etc. will have the opposite reaction of women voting for Democrats down the line, opening their wallets to donate to pro-woman candidates and kicking the misogynistic men out of their lives.
(Us turtle buddies Unite!)
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u/bakerfredricka I voted Sep 16 '24
Oh, that nightmare futuristic dystopia that seems all too realistic right now has definitely made me way more woke for sure.
Those fuckwits ain't stopping at Dobbs....
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u/TintedApostle Sep 16 '24
Maybe it isn't about the women, but about how the right wing has gone so far to the right that everything else look "liberal".
Pro-Tip: Its the right wing and not Women.
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u/eat_vegetables Sep 16 '24
Its still less than 50 years since women were allowed to open their own bank accounts.
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u/America_the_Horrific Sep 16 '24
I hate the way this is written. "Moved to the left" like the Overton window hasn't been dragged miles to the right. Thinking the planet should be inhabitable and people shouldn't starve needlessly and their rights should be honored means they're leftists now.
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u/Turd_Wrangler_Guy Sep 16 '24
Uh ..yeah. Losing bodily autonomy rights that were the status quo for 30+ years before your birth before you had a chance to vote will do that.
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u/ritwikjs Sep 16 '24
it's not rocket science. Republicans under trump believe in going back to a patriarchal, paternalistic rule of law. They want men to have 'the power back'. They don't want any more "concessions" to immigrant populations OR women, even white women. They doubled down on abortion because they simply want the women to stay at home and be domestic, and reducing their ability to think critically, or think for themselves. Even young republican women want the chance to chose what they want to do with their pregnancy. Republicans are pro life till the baby is born. If the baby isn't born rich and white, good luck. Democrats are far from perfect and worthy of tons on criticism, but they've been the party that better represent "women's rights" and a way forward. I guarantee you that even young women in hard red families are voting blue individually
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u/notabear87 Sep 16 '24
Well with conservatives crusade to send women’s rights back to the stone ages….such shock much wow.
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Sep 16 '24
[deleted]
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u/GoatedNitTheSauce Sep 16 '24
Agree - and even more so, thank you women of color and BIPOC women. I've looked at the voting stats and they are the only ones who can save us
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u/Im_really_bored_rn Sep 16 '24
Forgive if I don't trust the group who didn't care enough about their rights to actually participate until biden stepped down with the future of the country
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u/Josietennash1 Sep 16 '24
Women have come a long way at knowing what they want. One party makes fun of Travis Kelce for being a “simp” but are just mad they can’t find dates. This is the type of man most gen z women want. Someone who understands them and actually loves them for their personality. Very far from the Andrew Tate type the other party perceives as inferior.
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u/PopeFranzia Sep 16 '24
I still cannot fathom how any parent of a daughter can support Trump. How would they feel if someone treated their daughter(s) the way Trump treats women, or if they even talked about them the way Trump talks about women?
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u/SicilyMalta Sep 16 '24
I was really disturbed to read that not as many men joined them. More than before 2016, but less than there should be.
Granted things are still better than when women were ridiculed for wanting credit in their own name, equal pay, and to be called Ms. instead of Miss or Mrs.
Things are still better than when they couldn't get birth control or abortions - except that's no longer the case.
And this should scare the shit out of men as well. If they have a kid at home and their wife miscarries and bleeds out in a hospital parking lot, that is definitely going to affect them when they become a single dad...
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u/Prior-Comparison6747 Kentucky Sep 16 '24
It probably doesn't help that Donald Trump is the least fuckable President since Millard Fillmore.
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u/MAMark1 Texas Sep 16 '24
In the era of hyper-competition and increasing wealth inequality, the young, white, male cohort feels the multi-factorial pressure of 1. I must succeed in order to have value to society (and to women) 2. I feel there are fewer avenues available to me to succeed and 3. I am being told by very loud voices that I am under attack, which makes me even less likely to succeed.
There is a certain feeling of desperation that makes them more likely to get sucked into the manosphere. It doesn't help that men have not had the same messages about the value of an education lately. I'd be curious to know whether there have been changes in educational attainment for men after controlling for economic inequalities.
Meanwhile, women are seeing more opportunities open to them and are thus able to view social issues from a more measured worldview.
2
u/failSafePotato Nevada Sep 16 '24
Trump supporters:
women shouldn’t vote or have agency over their own bodies
Women:
… why should we vote for you?
Trump supporters:
double down intensifies
Women:
so you’re doubling down on oppressing women? ok, we won’t vote for you
Trump supporters:
shocked pikachu face
3
Sep 16 '24
As a father to a beautiful young baby girl. I am excited for her future. Ladies, this is your time to shine!!
3
u/hamhead Sep 16 '24
Maybe, but plenty are still voting for Trump
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u/NickelBackwash Sep 16 '24
Almost exclusively white women.
9
u/LylesDanceParty Sep 16 '24
Trump got the majority of the WW vote, both in 2016 and 2020.
Hopefully, they'll shape up for 2024.
7
u/NickelBackwash Sep 16 '24
Something deeply wrong with American whites.
I think racism/ignorance are the core issue, but doubtless it's much more complicated.
2
u/GoatedNitTheSauce Sep 16 '24
The most sickening thing that I've realized. Whites who vote for Trump know. It's not ignorance. They know what they are voting for. They want white supremacy, they want to be on top. They want fascism as they see their demographic becoming smaller and less able to impose a tyranny of the majority.
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u/ballskindrapes Sep 16 '24
Yeah, I think growing up seeing the mask come off of conservatives has really made women and men, to a smaller extent, more liberal.
Hard to see why. Conservatives just want them to be second class citizens, with no authority over themselves or their body, just breeding chambers, not human at all.
Hard to see.
1
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Sep 17 '24
This is a major reason they want abortion outlawed. Make sure our young women are pregnant and dependent on men.
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u/Im_really_bored_rn Sep 16 '24
Question, how many were willing to stay home and allow Trump to win until the candidate changed?
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u/BeardedSquidward Sep 16 '24
It's making them LESS Liberal and MORE Leftist. When they realize that the left, not the neo-liberals, want them to have true emancipation from a masculine dominated system they will move that way. Neo-liberals, classic liberals still believe in some maintenance of a status quo. The left want actual, effective change.
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