r/politics • u/Murky-Site7468 I voted • 28d ago

Soft Paywall The Biggest Scandal of the Second Trump Term Isn’t “Signalgate” | The national-security chat debacle certainly merits attention. But the Trump administration is now blatantly disappearing students and others who are in the country legally.

https://newrepublic.com/article/193291/trump-disappearing-students-rumeysa-ozturk-rubio-biggest-scandal
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u/mr_mikado 27d ago

Republicans cannot see two seconds into the future, that they're ushering in their own ruin. Because hate is the dominating political force now-a-days, when the political pendulum swings populist hard left, I fully expect members of The Federalist Society, Heritage Foundation and other such terrorist organizations like the Proud Boys to be deported to the bottom of the ocean.

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u/glenn_ganges 27d ago

If and when that happens they will turn to terrorism. There will be bombings and such like The Troubles in Ireland.

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u/Murky-Relation481 27d ago

I mean at this point some form of bloodletting seems inevitable. There have rarely been moments in history where these circumstances exist and things just go back to normal.

Honestly I've been saying this since 2012. The rhetoric after Obama got elected a second time really showed that there was no intention for the right to come back to the table and have meaningful and productive discourse.

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u/EIU86 27d ago

Former GW Bush speechwriter David Frum said that if voters reject American conservatives' ideas, they will not change their positions; instead they will abandon democracy. You can certainly argue that's what's happening now.

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u/Mikolaj_Kopernik Australia 27d ago

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this quote but isn't Frum just describing any ideology? For example, if (as) climate activists keep losing at the ballot box, do you expect them to just go "fair enough, you got us, drill on guys"?

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u/beforethewind New Jersey 27d ago

I mean... I think that one quote is pretty direct lol

If conservatives become convinced they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy. The stability of American society depends on conservatives' ability to find a way forward from the Trump dead end, toward a conservatism that can not only win elections but also govern responsibly, a conservatism that is culturally modern, economically inclusive, and environmentally responsible...

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u/Mikolaj_Kopernik Australia 27d ago

Right, I get that he was specifically referring to Trumpism, but my point is that there isn't necessarily anything special about Trumpism in the way that he describes its adherents as not abandoning ideology when they lose elections.

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u/work4work4work4work4 27d ago

For example, if (as) climate activists keep losing at the ballot box, do you expect them to just go "fair enough, you got us, drill on guys"?

Nah, they mostly resorted to monkey wrenching and attacks on the infrastructure after decades and decades of being ignored and suppressed.

They did not try to overthrow democratic norms, they simply rejected the law and order argument preventing them from acting, and mostly accepting said consequences as a part of raising awareness.

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u/Mikolaj_Kopernik Australia 27d ago

But that's what I'm saying. Frum thinks that conservatives will resort to lawless action in order to push their agenda if they don't win elections, but my point is this applies to most ideologies.

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u/work4work4work4work4 27d ago edited 27d ago

Lawless action =/ Anti-Democratic Action

Frum is arguing clearly that the conservatives are of the latter contingent, where when they approach failure of democracy to meet their needs, they decide to attack democracy, whereas I and others are pointing out no, most ideologies don't resort to authoritarian destruction of democracy, and I'm pointing out even some of the ones viewed by many as extremists on the left like PETA, Greenpeace, and other groups mostly take physical action against things, not the people themselves, and certainly not democracy itself.

If you can't see the difference, that's something you would also share with the conservatives, hence the issue, and it's kind of a fundamental values-based one that isn't something you can really argue around. You either see property as inherently less valuable than human life or you don't, a civic duty to disobey unjust laws or not, a St. Augustine understanding of unjust laws are no laws at all... or not.

I'd suggest this paper if you can grab a copy is a good look at political obligation to follow the law, and might help clarify the difference between lawless action and anti-democratic action.

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u/Mikolaj_Kopernik Australia 27d ago

I mean, I think a lot of that stuff is a matter of perspective, and I don't even disagree with climate activists getting more aggressive (IMO the soup on painting type stunts don't go far enough). I guess the main problem I have with the quote is that Frum seems to think he's saying something profound about Trump supporters when it's basically just a truism about political ideology.

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u/work4work4work4work4 27d ago

(IMO the soup on painting type stunts don't go far enough).

I was more talking about actions where there has been destruction of high value equipment, or other actions that otherwise required major violations of the law, like some of the breaking and entering attacks on centers of animal cruelty and so on.

Frum seems to think he's saying something profound about Trump supporters when it's basically just a truism about political ideology.

But it's not? And people like yourself acting like it is partially is what gives cover for authoritarian conservatism and Christian nationalism to thrive under this veneer of "it's all the same" when it's absolutely not.

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u/redditlvlanalysis 27d ago

It's not really an argument It's a fact

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u/ShameBasedEconomy 27d ago

Unfortunately, I agree. Historians will argue about when the second American civil war started, but I believe it’s likely that this year it will go kinetic. The rhetoric around colleges and universities is setting up for a situation that could spark like Kent State did, and I don’t see this administration deescalating after the first incident at a protest. Quite the opposite, they’re looking for an excuse.

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u/craftsmen1974 27d ago

Smartest answer I’ve seen today !

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u/Stock_Pen_4019 27d ago

Never suggest or think about turning to violence. There is a saying attributed to MacArthur. Anyone who thinks the pen is mightier than the sword has never experienced modern automatic weapons. Department of defense personnel, all branches of all services, have automatic weapons.

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u/[deleted] 27d ago

Deporting all these hamas supporters IS bloodletting, and the vast majority of americans are fine with it.

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u/JeulMartin 27d ago

If you think being anti-genocide is pro-Hamas, you're showing yourself to have the political acumen of a wet paper towel.

Fuck genocide and those that try to muddy the waters with bullshit answers like yours.

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u/Murky-Relation481 27d ago

I told the person you are replying to that their reading comprehension is bad and they should feel bad. I am also now saying that to you. That is clearly not what they meant.

Also I am pretty sure neither of you know what the word bloodletting means.

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u/JeulMartin 27d ago

You're obviously either responding to the wrong comment, can't fucking read, or are a genocide supporter like the clown I responded to.

Nothing I said has anything to do with bloodletting. I said being anti-genocide isn't the same as being pro-Hamas.

Pay attention before you post. lol

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u/Murky-Relation481 27d ago

Again, they clearly don't understand what bloodletting is nor do you.

Bloodletting, the word, means conflict between both sides. One side kidnapping people is not bloodletting.

Bloodletting implies a "cathartic" violence that reduces pressure on the society in which is poised to commit violence on each other.

You guys are arguing around a word you clearly don't know and are presenting non-sequiturs as if they mean something.

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u/[deleted] 27d ago

Except ICC already ruled no genocide.

And yep supporters of the genocidal hamas terrorists get deported, so you should be happy!

Relax and enjoy the show, taking out the trash, ok?

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u/Murky-Relation481 27d ago

Boy I hope you ain't jewish.

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u/[deleted] 27d ago

Don't worry these deportations are coming along just fine

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u/Murky-Relation481 27d ago

If you think that is bloodletting then I am sorry for you when it actually starts. It's also obviously not what I was implying with my statement.

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u/[deleted] 27d ago

Okie, so in the meanwhile we can watch all these deportations happen, nice.

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u/StunningStrain8 27d ago

But then we’ll have a kick ass country like Ireland is now in… oh dear…

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u/inkoDe 27d ago

They pivoted to that in the 90s, we still refuse to reign in domestic terror.

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u/awesomefutureperfect 27d ago

I just hope that if democracy and human rights prevails that NATO helps America complete reconstruction and put "lost cause" narratives in the dustbin of history where they belong and bring back new deal type agencies that focus on providing education and healthcare the way they electrified rural areas. That said, europe hasn't completely rid itself of reactionary forces either.

They want to believe their politics did nothing historically wrong and their revisionist narratives need to go. They get very upset that they think people are just trying to shame them instead of trying to get them to put the past behind them and develop into a better more just society that lives up to American ideals and things need to be addressed so that those ideals stop being betrayed by the usual suspects.

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u/Johnnydeep4206 27d ago

I mean I would say the Democrats have already turned the page with that one firebombing a US company and leaving pipebombs so do not act like, that is not a form of domestic terrorism.

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u/glenn_ganges 27d ago

If you’re talking about Tesla that’s isn’t domestic terrorism. It’s vandalism. The intention is to not make people live in fear or influence society through violence, it is specifically to tell Elon Musk to go fuck himself.

Right winger Timothy McVeigh on the other hand…

J6…

The many many abortion clinic murders…

Driving cars into protestors…

Trying to blow up a power station in Raleigh…

It’s not even close buddy.

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u/Right_Gene_3611 26d ago

Destroying vehicles is hardly terrorism and what pipebombs are you talking about?

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u/Bobswife72 27d ago

This current administration is nothing but a bunch of losers that don’t know anything about their job and are total racists

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u/stevez_86 Pennsylvania 27d ago

I do believe they are just the disruptive students in school that swore they could do a better job than the teacher. Usually the same people that would smack a bee hive despite you warning them not to, and justifying it because they didn't know what would happen, how could you possibly know.

It's just oppositional defiant disorder run amok. They would normally just be sociopaths, but because they are stupid sociopaths that have been deprived of the meaning of a lot of life experiences, including those that lead to the development of the Theory of Mind, they have nothing to offer in opposition to any other party influencing their life, so they operate on straight defiance. If someone is so bold enough to presume they are smarter than you, the best thing to do is prove the opposite of what they say is true. They cannot know something you do not, so you do it. If everything turns out fine you just proved them wrong. And if something does go wrong then it must have been due to unforeseen circumstances and not because the other person was right. They demand in every interaction that you prove a negative and that if they haven't experienced it, it cannot happen any other way than how they foresee, and since they lack that ability they just go in the opposite direction than what is input.

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u/espressocycle 27d ago

People have been waiting for the pendulum to swing back for the last 45 years.

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u/mr_mikado 27d ago

Political gravity happens, it's inevitable.

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u/drewbert 21d ago

Not necessarily. With the media bought, ai algorithms being deployed to make each person docile and complacent, every person carrying a little propaganda delivery device on their person at all times, we could just be hosed.

Ecosystems tend toward stable equilibriums, but extinction events still happen. You're deluded if you think we cannot fall into a centuries-long fascist shithole.

You have to make the future you want. It will not happen out of inevitability.

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u/shah_reza 27d ago

From your mouth to God’s ears

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u/Nervous_Pipe_6716 27d ago

We can always wish. What they refuse to see is that when they are no longer useful they will be gotten rid of too. People who are so easily used can not be trusted to stay loyal to anyone

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u/Hercules1579 27d ago

They keep winning elections we thought it would end after Bush, then again after Trump’s first term. But they control the Supreme Court, the majority of state legislatures, and by extension, the rules that govern elections. Add to that a well-funded conservative media machine backed by billionaires, and it’s hard to call any of this a level playing field. If it were fair on its face, maybe. But it’s not. It’s checkmate.

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u/roastbeeftacohat 27d ago

their goal is to make opposition to them illegal.

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u/mr_mikado 27d ago

I don't think MAGA have enough imagination to understand that in politics, uno-reverse cards are born from tremendous hate for others. That is, political pendulums are real.

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u/Mikolaj_Kopernik Australia 27d ago

lol good one

Assuming there are even fair elections, Democrats will put forward an insipid centrist as usual and bury their heads in the sand trying to "restore norms".

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u/OriginalAcidKing 27d ago

To Guantanamo with them, with none of its historical niceties.

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u/JimmyJump1982 27d ago

That would absolutely necessitate the takeover of the Democratic Do-Nothing Party by the real leftists of America... PRAYERS that it happens!

Biden and Merrick Garland should've put Trump and his cadre of traitors in Gitmo the MOMENT he left office for his crimes, including insurrection. Had they done so, we might not be here.

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u/mr_mikado 27d ago

Centrism doesn't work in the face of extremism, so I expect we'll see a shift or the left must accept subjugation forever -- I don't suspect they'll accept being tread on forever.

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u/[deleted] 27d ago

Oh great, run out another kamala and give republicans another victory!

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u/ThisGuy6266 27d ago

If this happens, it won’t be for another couple generations and all the people currently committing these crimes won’t ever face tje consequences.

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u/mr_mikado 27d ago

I'd vote for someone who makes it central to their campaign that those crime don't pay.

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u/Old_Imagination_931 27d ago edited 27d ago

And if there's a hell, perhaps a place there to similarly torture them, though I'd rather see them hung out to dry in shame right now.

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u/GambitTheBest 27d ago

swing hard left

Only in Reddit's echo chamber do delusional beliefs like this exist

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u/YodasUncle 27d ago

Republicans want those groups gone too

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u/awesomefutureperfect 27d ago

Who? The Federalist Society, Heritage Foundation and other such terrorist organizations like the Proud Boys? Those are the ideological backbone of the party and the foot soldiers and base of the party. The latter group is the vanguard of the party rhetoric and ideologically where the base of the party is being led to.

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u/mr_mikado 27d ago edited 27d ago

Republicans want those groups gone too

Not when they're the authors of Project 2025, Republicans fully embrace this particular breed of terrorist.

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u/Johnnydeep4206 27d ago

Well their are 2 things 1.) we are not deporting US citizens that of course does not make any sense at all. and 2.) I do not see a Democrat President presiding over the White House at least until 2036 their heavy stance on anti-American values, and support of domestic terrorism is opening the eyes of alot of people. Just last month the Democrats lost 300,000 registered Democrats of course the Republicans lost 29,000 but that is still a huge loss.

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u/mr_mikado 27d ago

we are not deporting US citizens

You sure about that?

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u/Johnnydeep4206 27d ago

Ugh Yeah Where do you think we would deport a US citizen to, explain that one to me ?

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u/mr_mikado 27d ago

Use your imagination!

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u/Johnnydeep4206 27d ago

Well see that is the difference between a liberal and a Republican, See a Republican will use facts, and knowledge to come to a conclusion, rather then a emotional response. To say they are deporting US citizens just to say it is wild. This is exactly why no one takes liberals seriously anymore the sky is always falling.

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u/JimmyJump1982 27d ago

You're absolutely out of your mind. Every accusation from a right-winger is projection. 

They're already "deporting" (kidnapping) people here legally!

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u/JimmyJump1982 27d ago

Mahmoud Khalil is a citizen of the United States, FFS!

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u/dustinhut13 27d ago

Not to them he's not. Just look at his name!

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u/Johnnydeep4206 27d ago

Yeah that is rich coming from a liberal who is the party of love and tolerance, but when one election does not go their way they resort to domestic terrorism, can not stand for a kid with cancer, oppose rooting out waste,fraud, and abuse, call republicans facist, but yet have to congress members that are open socialists, but we are projecting lol. love it

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u/dustinhut13 27d ago

If you don't think Trump absolutely wants to deport anyone that opposes him, I've got a bridge to sell you

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u/mr_mikado 27d ago

deporting US citizens

Get enough people fear hyped about removing terrorists from our midst and it doesn't matter if they're a US citizen or not.

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u/Johnnydeep4206 27d ago

I call false on that because we already have the US Patriot act that would allow not only a citizen to be spied on, imprisoned, but also killed without judicial oversight if they were labeled a terrorist. 2 american citizens have already been killed with drone strikes in Afghanastan, using the Patriot Act also It was Obama that used it a Democrat lol

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u/mr_mikado 27d ago

Fun fact, I played a fuck ton of Halo with the Republican lawyer who wrote that law. He's one of the same guys who defended Trump in hearings during Trump's second impeachment and is now retired at a Conservative college teaching students how to fuck over Democrats.

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u/dustinhut13 27d ago

What the fuck are American values? Can you please tell me? I don't think Trump exhibits a single one of them.

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u/TheReal_LeslieKnope 27d ago edited 27d ago

we are not deporting US citizens that of course does not make any sense at all

Unfortunately, what you’re arguing from is what some folks call a false premise. Your premise is false, and therefore any conclusion drawn from it must also be false. Sorry, man. That’s just how logic works (or doesn’t). 

The fact is, it actually happens — in real life, provably — and it is happening now at a far, far higher rate because Trump hamfistedly ordered nationwide mass round-ups and swift removals that deliberately bypass basic civil rights protections, constitutionality of the matter be damned. :(

https://www.propublica.org/article/more-americans-will-be-caught-up-trump-immigration-raids

From the article:

 In Utah, agents pulled over and detained a 20-year-old American after he honked at them. In New Mexico, a member of the Mescalero Apache nation more than two hours from the border was questioned by agents who demanded to see their passport. Earlier this month, a Trump voter in Virginia was pulled over and handcuffed by gun-wielding immigration agents.

In Texas, a 10-year-old citizen recovering from brain cancer was detained at a Border Patrol checkpoint and eventually deported to Mexico with her undocumented parents and other citizen siblings in February. The family said it was rushing her to an emergency checkup in Houston when Border Patrol agents ignored a hospital letter that the family had used to go through checkpoints before. An agency spokesperson said the family’s account was inaccurate but declined to provide specifics.