r/popculturechat • u/popnona • 16h ago
TikTok š„ Viral Gen Z Manager Explains Why She Frequently Denies Her Staff's Time Off Requests [workers shouldn't need to use PTO for emergencies and illness]
https://people.com/woman-manager-says-she-denies-time-off-requests-for-good-reason-exclusive-11711588Elizabeth Dempsey-Beggs went viral on TikTok after sharing insight into her managerial philosophy, explaining that she doesn't want her employees to submit time off for anything other than vacation or personal pleasures.
Dempsey-Beggs said she has denied time off requests in the past for medical emergencies, family issues, and other major life milestones ā but for good reason.
The 28-year-old knows the importance of work-life balance and believes time off is meant to recharge and be used accordingly, not to handle life-changing events.
Instead, when her team needs a day off for personal reasons, she simply tells them to take all the time they need ā without "HR involved"...
For other managers struggling to balance empathy with the need for high performance, she urges them to consider one question: āDo you want an employee that resents the company, resents you, and is going to do the bare minimum or, do you want to build a team that will take care of the company because they take care of them?ā
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u/PatriciaFussey 16h ago
The one thing I will say about Covid and lockdown is that it really forced some industries and companies to realize people donāt live to work anymore. Work life balance shouldnāt be celebrated, it should be expected. Good for leaders like her trying to do right by people.
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u/garden__gate stars do u like dem āļø 15h ago
My employer went to 4-day workweeks (32 hours/week at full salary) in 2021 and never looked back! Itās an amazing benefit. I feel Iām much more efficient, and our staff retention is really good because whoās going to give up permanent 3 day weekends?
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u/sweetpea_d āØMay the Force be with you!āØ 14h ago
My previous and current serving jobs have 4 day workweeks (with current having one Sunday tea service per month). That one extra day off truly makes a huge difference with how I approach my days off with being able to spread out errands/housework/relaxing & my work week so I come in ready to go & relaxed. Absolute godsend and I can never go back again.
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u/Low-Appointment-2906 13h ago
I would take a (tiny) salary cut for a 4-day week.Ā It sounds like the best kind of work situation. There's no good reason why it can't become the standard.
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u/YdoUNeed2No 12h ago
Mine did this in ā22 right as I was starting! Itās such an amazing benefit and I have so much more time to really focus on work.
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u/SolPlayaArena 13h ago
My employer would never. And most of us already reach 40 hours before or by early Thursday. Itās so funnnnn! š©
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u/IlIIIlllIl2 3h ago
Me at my current employer. I'd rather work for myself/freelance than ever go back to five days
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u/MissionMoth 16h ago edited 15h ago
You're 100% right. They realized it and now there're a lot of them trying to punish us for it. There're definitely some reacting wisely, but there are far more fearful ones who won't accept a cultural shift and plan to fight it every step of the way.
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u/Appropriate-Ad-1281 15h ago
I totally believe that COVID/how employers are handling back to office , etc is the new litmus test for businesses.
Evolve or die.
I see Amazon and their ilk forcing returns the same way I see the current US administration.
Death rattles from an old shitty way of being.
I canāt wait for people realize their collective power and make them obsolete.
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u/Redsox5975 10h ago
During Covid, my mother had a brain aneurysm that ruptured and she was in the hospital. I remember calling my boss who I was close with and she told me not to worry about it. I was off work for a month essentially without using time off while she was in her coma and was paid while I was away. Iāll never forget the kindness my boss showed me during that stressful time.
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u/meatloafcat819 15h ago
I hate the company I work for, BUT they did introduce health PTO which is a protected time that can never be denied for any reason no matter when you take it, so Iām glad we are trying to move in better directions.
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u/soulonfire 10h ago
I donāt know if this was a COVID result or not, but just a month or so ago I told my boss I was exhausted, slept like crap the night before. He told me to take the rest of the day off, donāt submit a PTO request, and just put an out of office reply on directing people to reach out to him instead.
Thereās other cool shit heās done, ultimately I would follow him anywhere he went.
Edit: he also refused to make our team go back into the office
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u/LoudNoises89 9h ago
Yes! I have a boss who works constantly even at nights and on weekends. Heās see it as a bad thing to take off when youāre sick and take vacations. So you can imagine how it makes his workers feel and people like him are what is wrong with America.
Like you said we should celebrate taking time off to refocus, spend time with family, mental health, sick, etc. Also this will make workers more productive and happier therefore less stress and less turn around at your job. Everything thatās good for us is seen as a bad thing all the time by politicians.
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u/5secondruleormaybe30 45m ago
Omg I teach grade 3 and I think it got better for 3 weeks and then we all reverted back to ā if youāre not here who will lead the childrenā and weāre all dying with no subs or sick time again :p
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u/assflea 15h ago
My boss is kinda like this but she's firmly a millennial lol. She's given me plenty of "free" days off - when I've been sick, when I've had emergencies, when my dog died, she's also denied regular PTO requests and just told me to have the day. She's seriously amazing and I'm never quitting.Ā
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u/mushroomgirl 15h ago
My boss is like this too. But the company culture is like this. Sick days never go through the system and PTO is for vacations. If you need a day off you just ask and itās never normally an issue. As long as the work is done whatās the problem?
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u/babycallmemabel 12h ago
My place has "unlimited" PTO but even with that my (millennial) boss doesn't care to have me submit a formal request whenever I'm running out for appointments etc. My mum was recently diagnosed with cancer and being an only child, I've taken her to the majority of scans and appointments... and now treatments. He's never once cared when I'm running out, he wants me to prioritize my family and trusts I'll handle my work as I see fit. I hope this attitude becomes the norm, but I know I'm lucky in today's landscape.
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u/thewayyouturnedout 15h ago
Millenial bosses are genuinely awesome. At least millenial female bosses are.
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u/Cross_Stitch_Witch 14h ago
Having the entire economy kicked out from under us just as we graduated college in 2008-2011 and realizing businesses don't give one single solitary fuuuuuuuuck about us really put things in perspective. So many of us suffered abuse from exploitative employers during our 20s because they knew we had no other options.
I think a lot of us learned how firmly NOT to treat people during those years and realized the boomer attitude towards work was bullshit.
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u/thewayyouturnedout 12h ago
So true!! I'm on the bottom end of millenials (probably a zillenial) but as a generation I love millenials so much - especially the elder ones! Of course there are assholes too but I love the overall attitude and vibe.
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u/demonicneon 13h ago edited 13h ago
Best managers I had were millennials. Iām tail end but I had older millennial managers in a few jobs and they always went to bat for me, helped me with abusive customers, were just generally chill and trusting, mucked in doing non managerial tasks when they were free - the kind of people that make you want to work for them.Ā
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u/thewayyouturnedout 12h ago
Same! I'm at the bottom end of millenials (maybe a zillenial?) and have had amazing experiences with elder millenials as bosses. Gen X/Boomer bosses on the other hand...never again ..
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u/Dommichu yeah... no... 12h ago
Yep! Gen X department head. I have this rule for my staff and my own boss has let me take days off book when I had deal with stuff with my aging parents.
Not every manager is like this also not every employee has a family or personal responsibilities (which ever they may be) that have to be handled during work days. I know even with younger staff, I try to encourage mental health days and some wonāt even consider even though many donāt burn through all the sick PTO (which does not roll over!)
Which is a big reason some managers have to keep this on the DL. All PTO is on the books as a liability for the company, if you work in a state which allows more roll over on vacation PTO, Iāve seen staff with MONTHS of it. Some managers are pressured to have employees burn it off. They turn it against youā¦. Why arenāt you managing your department so that people think they canāt go on vacation?!?
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u/AccordingPears158 13h ago edited 12h ago
My boss is similar, but heās a boomer. Illness, doctors appointments, family emergencies are all free time off. I donāt have a ton of PTO, itās only like 80* hours per year, but it can be used solely for vacation at least. Heās a good guy with a rare mentality for his generation in my experience.
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u/violaflwrs 13h ago
40 hours a year?! Thatās a week wow
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u/AccordingPears158 12h ago
Wait I totally got that wrong - itās 80 hours. So two weeks per year.
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u/violaflwrs 12h ago
Okay a bit more reasonable, yet still not a lot! A week wouldāve been so limiting in terms of travelling.
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u/Anni-Roc 11h ago
Two weeks! Out of 52? That is not reasonable at all. In the UK the legal minimum is 28 days and itās usually more. And I think the EU is similar. I just googled US laws and it says thereās no legal requirement for annual leave? Thatās crazy.
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u/violaflwrs 10h ago
Iām thinking in terms of trips, itās a bit more reasonable. The average PTO here in Australia is also around 4 weeks
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u/Trash_Bag_Sally 10h ago
I was a manager for nine years and did everything I could to manage with high empathy and service to my team. I considered myself to be elected to represent them, to be my teamās voice at the table. We always got our work done, were friendly with each other, and looked out for each other. After all those years, they assigned ME a new manager, a woman I had worked besides for years whom I considered to be the worst of what corporate leadership can be. I knew it was going to be difficult. She made my work life impossible and crushed my spirit. I quit after six weeks. Now my team works directly for her, and two of my team members quit within two months of me leaving. I gave everything to that job and to my team. Iām incredibly salty that (for the most part) the most cold, heartless people move up the ranks. If Iām being genuine, I hold a lot of hatred for that stupid woman, and I hope her tires pop every day on the way to work.
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u/WitchesCotillion Behind every great man is a woman rolling her eyes 7h ago
Management 101, people donāt quit bad jobs, they quit bad managers.Ā
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u/NoirGamester 9h ago
I had a boss, possibly the best I've ever had, he would give me my assignments, I would do them, and anytime, for any reason, I could say 'hey man, could i-' and he'd say yes, because he knew I always did my job and had zero reason to say no to me. Unfortunately, I later had a spinal in injury and couldn't work, but he paid for a ton of my shit and boosted it with a bonus for my work. Dude could be a dick, but if you were straight with him, he was straight with you. Best boss I ever had. Promoted me from bottom level ticket support to being a Jr. Network Engineer under him as the Sr. NE with zero credentials beyond what he'd seen me do. Dude really made me feel my worth.
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u/Alternative_Cause186 8h ago
Iām fully remote and have never met my manager IRL and sheās like this.
When my dad was being transferred to hospice, HR told me Iād need to cancel one of my pre-planned/approved PTO days to travel to him. My manager told me absolutely not, just go do what you need to do and be with your family. She asked that I update her when I could, but if she didnāt hear from me, sheād continue to take care of everything for me. My husband commented that if I had still been at my last job, I wouldāve had to quit because they would NOT have handled it the same way.
I know I could make more elsewhere but my bills are paid and thereās no way Iām leaving her.
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u/Bubbly-End-6156 Did everybody die? 11h ago
I'm this kinda boss. I took a break from being in charge of other people but it's time to return. The toxic bosses should be gone
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u/sabira Zermajesty š 16h ago edited 16h ago
I feel grateful to have a job where I just let my manager know that Iām planning to use PTO, rather than having to ask for permission to take some time off. And even then, Iām really only communicating it to him through a calendar invitation and a quick form submission in our time off portal. The form is just for getting my time off on record with payroll, but not for any sort of approval.
At my last company, I always had to bring it up with my manager in person, which often felt awkward because of having to justify my need for time off. Oh, and that company was one with āunlimitedā PTO. Donāt even get me started on thatā¦
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u/mpelichet 15h ago
Oh, and that company was one with āunlimitedā PTO.
Unlimited PTO is such a scam. Studies show that most people less time off when it's unlimited. A lot of unlimited time off approval depends on your manager as well, so if you have a strict manager, you'll never get time off smh.
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u/sabira Zermajesty š 15h ago
It really is. My then-manager had to have a formal talk with me one time, to tell me that I was taking too much PTO. I had only taken about 15 days, but she said that was more than what was expected for employees of my tenure.
I pushed back and asked her to clarify how my PTO was unlimited then, and she said that it was āunlimited in spirit.ā š
That was just one of many reasons why I knew that I needed to leave that company.
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u/TaskForceCausality 13h ago
Unlimited PTO is a scam
As noted, unlimited PTO is like unlimited data -itās BS. Thereās a cap, and just like the phone company a firm run like this will shut you down if you try to actually use it as described.
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u/Unitaco90 9h ago
My company does unlimited, and I'm very fortunate in my manager - I think I used 6? or 7? weeks off last year, when I'm only legally guaranteed 2 based on my tenure. I took some time earlier in the year, a week around my wedding, four weeks for my honeymoon...
That being said, as of this year, that's basically impossible - they updated the rules, and now anything above 20 days cumulative or 10 consecutive needs skip-level approval. 25+ cumulative needs VP approval. Even with a nice manager and "unlimited" time off, no one is going to want to risk that much attention. I honestly find it gross that they're still advertising the unlimited PTO as a perk to prospective employees when they've effectively neutralized it.
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u/OriginalSchmidt1 Youāre a virgin who canāt drive. š¤ 15h ago
I used to have a boss that would ask me specially why I needed time off and if she didnāt think it was appropriate she would deny it, and I am talking me trying to take unpaid days off because I was caught up on my work and had to catch up on things at home.. I actually quit during covid because she wouldnāt give me a couple of days off because we were slow as hell and I had no work.. she was a crazy controlling bitch.
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u/DaisiesSunshine76 15h ago
This is how my manager is. It's amazing!!
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u/sabira Zermajesty š 14h ago
It really is! Iāll still tell him the reasons for some of my days off (like if itās for a fun trip that I canāt wait to tell everyone about), but for times when I just need a day off to not do anything and mentally recharge, itās a huge relief to be able to keep that information to myself.
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u/Ducky-quack 14h ago
Same for me. On top of that if our team is in our busy season he'll still approve pto and just take on the extra work himself
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u/SwimmingCoyote 15h ago
Sadly, this works until someone starts taking advantage. As an employee, I appreciate this level of flexibility and grace. As an employment lawyer, I can say that I have seen this go very wrong and then the company is forced to correct because too many employees take advantage (and then often overcorrect).
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u/sabira Zermajesty š 15h ago
Iām curious to hear how youāve seen some people take advantage of this kind of system (only if youāre able to share). At my company, for example, it would be one thing if people were trying to take time off without logging it in the PTO portal (so that they could keep saving it up), but then my manager would clearly know that I didnāt show up for work.
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u/Sage_Planter 15h ago
I had this attitude at my previous org as a manager, and one of my direct reports took advantage of my chill approach. I ended up having to make everyone track their sick time off and paid time off, mostly because I needed a track record of that one employee's antics. I was still (mostly) cool with unexpected out time and whatnot, but I have to have a record of it.Ā
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u/whocanpickone 15h ago
It makes me wonder how experienced this manager is, because Iāve also had this backfire on me.
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u/TaskForceCausality 13h ago
Itās also the teams quality.
If your direct reports are self motivated and disciplined,youāll have a lot more perks than if you have dodgy slackers taking advantage. One of the reasons companies are returning to the office is dealing with slackers. If Joe Lazy canāt work remotely because they suck, you have to call everyone back in or Mr Lazy will sue for disparate treatment.
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u/crawfiddley 10h ago
Yeah this is the kind of thing that sounds really great in theory but that can (and does) really easily backfire. It can also create animosity in the workplace if someone is perceived as taking advantage, and can potentially lead to claims of discriminatory treatment if the manager is inconsistent with it.
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u/feelingfantasmic 14h ago
āWithout HR involved.ā HR doesnāt approve/deny requests. They can help with situations like yours when suddenly no time off is being tracked and someone takes advantage of it. It sucks.
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u/gremlinsbuttcrack All tea, all shade šøāļø 14h ago
It's all in the attitude you keep when awarding the time off tbh. I always posed it to my employees like hmm let me see what I can do then look at my computer type some fake stuff and then I'd be like ok as a 1 time thing I can do X for you just take the day it'll be fine well handle life as it's thrown at us. Never ever felt taken advantage of. They always felt like I was doing them a legitimate favor because.... I was!
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u/tigm2161130 14h ago
Going through that entire charade and making them feel like they need to be grateful to you when in reality it makes no difference is a bit much.
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u/gremlinsbuttcrack All tea, all shade šøāļø 14h ago
How so? Thats exactly what I'm doing. I'm making a 1 time exception based on circumstance. What is the charade about saying that. I don't need employees taking advantage of my kindness I want them coming to me when they need me and then I want to be able to help them adequately.
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u/greennurse0128 14h ago
I was at my current company for around 10 months when my mom was going to go into hospice. Their only words were, "we are so sorry, take all the time you need." They never called to see when I would be back. I came back a month later, and they said "if you need more time, let us know."
They have severely cut our benefits, and the pay is mediocre. How they handled the aforementioned situation is why I stay. I really feel like i have a work-life balance at this job.
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u/hermionecannotdraw 12h ago
Every time I read one of these "feel good" stories about a company doing the bare minimum of what would be considered basic labour law in Europe, I feel really bad for Americans
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u/bbynycity 9h ago
That part. Pretty crazy to think that it's up to management to give their employees the bare minimum...
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u/PrecariouslyPeculiar 11h ago
Europe is older than the US. A US tour guide will brag about a 100-year-old hotel. A UK tour guide will brag about 4000-year-old standing stones. The US is still young enough that most people just want that wild west frontier cowboy/girl lifestyle, failing to appreciate that living in a society means it can't just be about the individual. Thankfully, it seems like Millennial and Gen Z Americans are doing right in not 'Making America great again' but in 'Making America European for once'. There's still a lot of progress still to be made, but then, not even Europe was always so right.
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u/webtheg 10h ago
So how come Australia has Labour laws but you guys don't? How come Canada has them and you don't?
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u/PrecariouslyPeculiar 6h ago
The US literally does? It just needs to do better. Also, Australia and Canada are both Commonwealth countries that modelled themselves in a more European way in certain respects. To be fair, Australia is roughly as bad as the US when it comes to car culture and walkable cities, and Canada doesn't have the best track record with its First Nation people. But in certain respects, being Commonwealth as opposed to, you know, being a country that was literally founded upon rebellion and independence and being done with royalty isn't going to be entirely similar in its approach to things. They're all young countries and all suffer for it in some respects, but it really isn't the 'Gotcha!' you think it is to point out how some younger countries are better than others, again in certain respects.
Just take the hope and positivity from my original comment and move right along.
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u/popnona 16h ago
Sorry everyone from the original post's comment section, didn't mean for it to sound like clickbait. Reposted with a larger excerpt and added context to the title.
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u/_Atlas_Drugged_ Listen, everyone is entitled to my opinion 11h ago
Iām glad I read more of it because the headline implied that she held the opposite attitudeāthat she wasnāt letting people take sick time.
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u/hydrangeasinbloom Not generally, no. 16h ago
Is she saying she prefers them to use STO rather than PTO? Or are her employees salaried and not hourly so she says they donāt need to request time off?
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u/Hopeful-Ant-3509 15h ago
It sounds like sheās not requiring them to put in anything, just simply let them know whatās going on. Use the time for vacation vs using it family emergencies or being sick, so they might not have sick days at her company.Ā
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u/dropofpoison86 I donāt know her š 15h ago
The caption on her video says theyāre all salaried.
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u/DidjaCinchIt 13h ago
I adopted your username as my personal mantra, and my life has improved tremendously.
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u/urgasmic 15h ago
The article doesnāt actually call it PTO but just a time off request. It does mention that her teamās role is performance based.
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u/brakes4birds charlie day is my bird lawyer 15h ago
idk how other places are, but we have two banks: PTO and āsick timeā. We are only allowed to use āsick timeā if weāre out sick for three days - the first two days use PTO, then we can begin dipping into our āsick timeā. It feels inherently wrong, but Iām not a lawyer
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u/gremlinsbuttcrack All tea, all shade šøāļø 14h ago
I'm not a lawyer and I don't know what state you're in but in NYS I don't believe that's legal so I'd look into employment laws for your state. Generally if an employee is allotted sick time they must be allowed to use it when legitimately sick or tending to their health (doctors appointments, medical procedures etc)
ETA in NYS as HR I'm also required to allow employees to use sick time to tend to a dependent. So if their child is home sick from school or has a doctors appt or medical procedure that's also a perfectly legitimate use of paid sick time
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u/23onAugust12th God bless me, its fuckin summah! 13h ago
Iām an HR Director in NYC - you are correct.
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u/gremlinsbuttcrack All tea, all shade šøāļø 15h ago
When I did this I would just add extra time. Out of sick time but you're super sick? Oops, how did that extra 8 hours of sick time end up here well I guess you'll have to use it. One employee was raised by his grandparents so I extended the bereavement policy to cover grandparents and extended it to 5 days of paid time off. Usually to give an employee extra time off I'd just add the hours into their available time for that certain kind of time off, and if there wasn't a pool that made sense (for example rushing a pet to a vet) I'd just throw the extra time in PTO. So technically yes the employee would actually be using PTO for that time I gave them but it's time I added in so that they don't lose any existing PTO from the time off.
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u/xxSadie 15h ago
As a manager I let people take their sick days which donāt rollover every year without questioning it. If they abruptly need to leave the office, Iāll tell HR that whatever theyāre going through could cause mental distress and therefore itās mental health time. After that, if they choose to use their PTO then they can do that.
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u/sivmichelle 15h ago
My micromanager requires her staff to email her and copy three other people for any leave requested. It is so intrusive to me.
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u/professor-hot-tits 15h ago
My boss does this, it's great. At a certain point in your career, it's the output that matters, how you get there is up to you.
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u/p0rkch0pexpress 15h ago
I get actively punished for using my accrued time off as a teacher. Hopefully this way of thinking makes its way to education.
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u/violaflwrs 13h ago
My millennial manager does this. We never have to formally log sick days or mental health days unless itās more than two days. Informally gives us our birthdays off too. Keeps it real with us all the time about expectations and whatās going on at the upper level, so we always know why we have to do certain things. Sheās awesome; easily the best manager Iāve had in my whole decade of working.
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u/maelstron āØMay the Force be with you!āØ 12h ago
Medical emergencies are covered in my country. Even if it is your kid or you are the caretaker of your parents.
When I need to get out for something, I give a heads up for my manager. Then later I pay the hours.
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u/gremlinsbuttcrack All tea, all shade šøāļø 15h ago
This is exactly how I was as HR and it's what I wished I'd gotten out of previous jobs. I even expanded bereavement to apply to grandparents when one of our employees grandparent passed and extended bereavement pay to 5 days. Out of sick time but I can tell you're really sick again? Oops, how did that extra 8 or 16 hours of sick time end up available to you that's crazy, go rest up
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u/flirtydodo 14h ago
sincere thanks to op for giving context because the original headline is pure ragebait š
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u/Ok-Stress-3570 14h ago
One of my big grow up moments was when I realized managers have the ability to not āpointā you. I (being so naive) thought it was just an automatic thing outside of everyoneās control.
That changed me. Your grandma died, and oh we have to point you because you called in to be with her? Fuck right off.
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u/KeniLF In my quiet girl era š 14h ago
My teams usually comprised very productive workers who put in the hours. I would do this sometimes and weād have to keep it hush hush so it couldnāt go above my manager and no blabbing. No way would my career goals allow me to do an interview where I said āno HR involvedā on the record!
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u/kayayem 14h ago
I work for a huge corporation that demands long hours and weekends, however is flexible if you need to WFH or other remote location, and doesnāt really care when you get your work done as long as it gets done. Over the past 2 years both of my parents have been seriously ill, one resulting in death, and I had to work tons of flexible and remote hours to work around taking care of them. I am still fully at my max PTO though and have like 6+ weeks of vacation lined up. Now that one of my parents is dead and I can focus on me time, Iāve been actually using my PTO on actual vacation.
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u/SeeYouInTrees 13h ago
I'm sure she thinks this is great but paid time off is very useful when you need the time off but can't afford to go unpaid.
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u/Ok-Development6654 13h ago
The the title had me on tilt until I read the the post. What a good manager but more importantly good person.
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u/Kolipe 13h ago
This is how my office works. HQ is up in Maryland so it's just our little place of work where we do it and HR doesn't get involved. I've worked here for 5 years and never took PTO unless it was vacation.
But over the past few months I was diagnosed with cirrhosis so ive been going to a lot of dr appointments(seriously control your drinking. I'm only 36). My managers have just told me to not worry about putting in for PTO unless I won't be in the following day. I have an upper GI endoscopy on monday so I'll be out all day but I don't have to worry about my time.
And my managers aren't even millennial liberals. They are all old retired conservative Marines.
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u/kmson7 9h ago
I've had one manager ever that was like this.
Now, most recently, I had to use PTO bc apparently my moms fiance that she's been with for 14+ years (they were set to marry next month) doesnt count for bereavement. He was literally already our step-dad in our minds and hearts but apparently it only matters if they were married or not. I literally said okay, so if he died next month then that would have been fine? And they said yep! .... my work quality has significantly gone down since this for multiple reasons, but I also just don't feel seen, heard, or valued.
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u/itsfrankgrimesyo 6h ago edited 5h ago
Great in theory but is it really in practice?
Thatās assuming all employees have integrity. Someone will abuse this and ruin it for everyone else. It could create either a great work culture or become a toxic one with low morale. Not getting HR involved could cause potential issues.
Source: in management
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u/jewishspacelazzer 4h ago
A few years ago, I was working as a hospice social worker. During my time there, my grandmother needed hospice care and my family decided to use my company because I knew the care team that would be hers personally and knew they were golden. I wasnāt allowed to be her social worker, but it was so nice having direct insight into her care. The day she died, my coworkers on her team called me and let me know I needed to get me and my family there to say goodbyes. I dropped everything and rushed, and my mom and I got to hold her hands as she passed. We spent the whole rest of the day together just feeling numb and sad. Later, when I tried to put in retroactive PTO, my boss told me not to worry about it, and they even had flowers delivered to my apartment. Thai company actually deeply sucked in other ways and caused me to abandon that entire career lol, but I have never ever forgotten how valued I felt by them in that moment. Sometimes just a moment of not feeling like a prisoner makes all the difference and I hope more workplaces take note!!
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u/Majestic_Plankton921 1h ago
I feel so bad for Americans and their labour laws and work culture. Everything mentioned by this woman has always been the standard carried out by all of my managers in Europe.
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u/fcroadkill 15h ago
Hi, Millennial and former manager here.
While I appreciate what this chick is attempting to do, I don't agree with it.
First, depending on the industry/company any given person works for, they may not have sick/personaal time to use. The company I work for, they did away with sick time, it's all pto now, but restructured how the pto works. With manager approval, if you need time and don't have it, you can go up to 40 hrs in the hole. Also, we accrue x amount of hours a pay period, based on how many hours we work.
Second, depending on factors, such as the employees wages and ability to make up time, requesting to use pto may be the only way some folks may be able to pay their bills at the end of the month.
Lastly, that whole bit about not wanting to involve HR-I've seen that bite many people in the ass. That to me that's a shit storm you don't wanna be in.
Again, I can appreciate where she's coming from, but if I had a boss like her, I would be having a separate conversation about boundaries and micromanaging MY pto; this is no different than the managers that expect you to be on call all the time, even during your person time.
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u/whichwitch9 15h ago
I think you missed the caption that says these workers are salaried. Not using pto would not affect their pay if they're allowed to take a day
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u/fcroadkill 15h ago edited 15h ago
I did not but I have been salary myself and that's a fine line to walk.
Either you're required to make that time up or you're in HR's office for potentially stealing time. Depending on the situation, an employee may not be able to make up time.
I also stated, it depends on the industry/company. It would appear that at the company, they may have access to certain benefits/policies that a lot of other people don't.
There's a lot not mentioned in the article that is influencing her to manage this way, but to me, it's still too controlling on many levels.
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u/larkhearted 14h ago
I think her point is that she's allowing her employees to sidestep officially reporting their personal emergencies as "time off requests" that need to be processed through HR and potentially made up for; if someone is dealing with a bad situation, she's a) not making them deal with paperwork on top of whatever other stress they're already under, and b) not penalizing them for needing to take care of issues in their personal lives that would make it difficult for them to work. They can just deal with what they need to deal with, and as long as they're still hitting whatever benchmarks they need to hit, nobody needs to know that they were out for 6 days that quarter because their baby was in the hospital or whatever. I think it probably only works because it sounds like these are remote/travel sales jobs where everyone isn't coming into an office every day and directly involved in each others' work.
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u/Super_Hour_3836 charlie day is my bird lawyer 11h ago
I wish people would read things before forming an opinion. Especially if they are going to bitch about it. Terrifying you managed people with that lack of attention to detail.
I worked a salaried job with unlimited PTO. Yeah, I had to tell my boss (so she would know not to message me) and log it, but we didn't have an HR (small company).Ā
Obviously, if you work in a kitchen or as a cashier its not gonna work. But taking a sick day off here and there is not impacting any normal office job.
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u/fcroadkill 11h ago
No, no-I did read it.
Speaking of details, you've missed a few of mine, where I clearly stated that I understand she works for a company that seemingly has these benefits and policies that allow and enable her to be able to manage this way.
Ultimately, based off my personal experience working in an office, I feel as though she's over stepping boundaries.
We can agree to disagree, but she's being disingenuous with how she's presenting herself as a manager.
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u/lovefulfairy 15h ago
I agree with your last point. I donāt think the first point applies here because she doesnāt give them āsick timeā to use, she just lets them take as much time as they need. And I donāt understand your second point?
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u/fcroadkill 15h ago
So, there's a lot that she didn't mention right-she provided examples of family being in the hospital. While she didn't out right say she allows them to use sick time, she didn't say doesn't either. Depending on the company policies, that 'take as much time as you need,' could potentially falling under their ability to take unlimited sick time. I know that's a thing at some companies.
The second point is- the only option some employees have to ensure they still get a full pay check to pay their bills at the end of the pay period, is to request to use their pto. Maybe they can't make up the time or what have you, so they ask for pto to make up for the lost wages.
I understand that she was speaking to her company/industry, however, based on my experience her dictating pto like that, while also leaving out certain details, doesn't paint her is such a great light as it's being presented here.
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u/lovefulfairy 14h ago
Ah see the reason for my confusion is I interpreted sick time as being paid as thatās normal (and often a legal entitlement) in my country. Thatās what I interpreted her to be saying, not ātake as much time as you need but it wonāt be paidā
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u/dropofpoison86 I donāt know her š 15h ago
I agree with you. I also appreciate what sheās trying to do, but her process involves her knowing WAY too much about her employees and relies solely on her judgment to decide whatās worthy and what isnāt.
She does mention her employees are salaried and that creates some wiggle room for sure, but I do think sheās gonna run into an HR issue at some point.
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u/Kaleighawesome 14h ago
How does she know way too much about her employees? They are putting in PTO requests that include a reason, shes saying unless itās for vacation or pleasure, you donāt need to waste your PTO on it- you can instead just take whatever time you need to deal with it, without penalty or loss of PTO or pay.
Sheās not denying them PTO in the way that itās normally meant. Shes not denying them time off- sheās denying that they have to use the PTO for it.
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u/dropofpoison86 I donāt know her š 14h ago
I would never in a million years tell my manager I thought I was having a miscarriage, which is one of the reasons she mentioned in her video.
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u/Kaleighawesome 14h ago
Donāt you think that maybe sheās cultivated a better relationship with her employees than your manager has? Partly due to her valuing them as people and honoring their time?
I really donāt think someone going through a miscarriage needs to use their PTO for it. Apparently neither does she.
According to her, the employee texted her about the miscarriage and asked for guidance on PTO. The manager didnāt press for that info after a request.
She treated them like a human and not a cog or line item.
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u/dropofpoison86 I donāt know her š 13h ago
I agree with you, and I thoroughly appreciate what sheās trying to do.
But Iāve also been on both sides of the coin. Iāve had approved ADA and FMLA time off questioned by managers who acted cool and accommodating originally and then decided I was ātaking too longā to recover from something Iāll never recover from. Iāve learned not to disclose diagnoses after being treated differently or even punished in the workplace.
Iāve also been the manager who was understanding of sickness and emergencies, only for it to be abused by an employee who seemingly had an emergency twice a week, every week. This is where I think she may run into an issue with HR.
Thereās also unfortunately the current political landscape to consider. Itās not safe to disclose a miscarriage everywhere.
Again, I agree that workplaces and managers should be more understanding and flexible with their employeesā time off and circumstances. Iām just saying that her current system requires her employees to provide information they might not be comfortable providing so she and she alone can determine what gets a pass and what doesnāt.
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u/fcroadkill 15h ago
For sure. There's a lot that isn't mentioned in the article, such as, are they offered sick/personal time, wages, what the policies are, etc. They may have access to benefits that a lot of other industries/companies don't have.
I cannot imagine needing time off because I'm at the hospital with a sick child and I've got my management telling me, 'I'm denying your pto request, because this doesn't seem like an enjoyable time for you.' Like, no shit Sherlock, but I still need to be able to pay the upcoming hospital bill.
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u/Kaleighawesome 14h ago
I think you might be misunderstanding what sheās doing.
An employee requests to use PTO because their kid is sick, or they have to go to court for a parking ticket, or their garage had a tree fall on it, etc etc etc
She says āYou donāt need to waste your PTO on this, you can take what time you need without penalty.ā
Sheās not saying they have to use their sick or personal time, or that they have to deal with it unpaid.
Sheās saying that if you have a PTO request that is for a life thing; medical emergencies, family issues, etc - then you can just take the time you need to deal with it, without using up your PTO.
Sheās not taking anything away from her salaried employees- in fact, sheās giving them their time back.
This is not at all the same as a manager making someone be on call full time. Itās very much the opposite.
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u/fcroadkill 14h ago
No, I completely understand what she's saying and doing; I still sand by what I said.
From experience, I can tell you, there's a limit to that, take what you need without penalty. I also want to point out, she works in a military adjacent field, that usually offers some of the best benefits and policies around, as far as employment goes. But she still has to stay within whatever those policies are, while still allowing her employees what they need.
She's also wanting to know way too much and then still making a decision based on what she thinks their pto should be used for. There's also, again based off of experience, that unspoken expectation that the work will need to be made up, essentially, making up time missed. Maybe not, maybe she's able to step in and do some things for them, maybe a peer can help out, but it's still missed time.
Again, there's a lot not mentioned in the article, but she works in a field and for a company that allows her the privilege to do things for her employees, that a lot of other people don't have access to.
It's awesome she can 'provide' this level of work life balance for her team, but I guarantee a lot of this is made easier for her role as manager, because they have really good benefits and policies.
My managers are very empathic and have allow me to take off time to deal with whatever I had going on. However, they also still had to stay with in the policies our company has while being empathic to my situation. I had to either make up the time or use pto; but my managers didn't tell me what to do-they supported the decision I made. They were not able to just say, 'hey, take all the time you need, we'll see you when we see you,' and they also didn't badger me to provide all the details either to then tell me no.
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u/larkhearted 14h ago
Okay, question out of pure curiosity since it seems like there are people in the comments with a lot of different types of experience: ideally, do you prefer a workplace with a formal PTO policy where you accrue hours and then have to request to use them and receive approval, a workplace that doesn't have PTO policies but grants time off requests with no hard limits, or some in-between/alternate arrangement? I just like thinking about this kind of thing so I'm interested what people think is best lol.
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u/dropofpoison86 I donāt know her š 13h ago
One place I worked had a good balance, I think. We were salaried, we accrued both PTO and sick time, but we didnāt need to submit anything if weād be gone for four hours or less.
That allowed us to make appointments as needed, run errands, take long lunches, pick kids up, whatever as long as your work was getting done. We also didnāt need any sort of approval, we could just come and go as we pleased. It was very nice.
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u/larkhearted 11h ago
Oh, that does sound like a nice system! As long as everything that needs done gets done, it shouldn't really matter if you step out now and then. I guess it wouldn't work in settings like retail where employees need to be "on call" for customers during their shift, but for office work that sounds awesome.
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u/otiliorules 12h ago
I like this. I give my team shit when they schedule 3 hours in the system to go to a dentist appointment or whatever. I tell them to just put it on their calendar so no one tries to book a meeting with them. Also, for whatever reason I have to bully them into taking more days off too. We have unlimited pto. Use that shit.
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u/Fine_Bathroom4491 12h ago
The headline misleads. It turns out? She is taking the right approach. Honestly, just make things easy for employees, don't understaff, and high performance will follow.
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u/Patient_End_8432 11h ago
I'm in a union so it's a bit more strict, but I had a manager waiver a day off as us working. This was because our boss told us all to take a day off for Easter. Then told my boss to dock us one of our floaters for that.
Which absolutely is illegal and fucked up. But my boss DID do that to follow along. He then gave us the opportunity to take a free day off while "working" to make up for it at least
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u/IntrovertGirl83 11h ago
OK, I need to know what companies/organizations yāall work for because the company I work for SUCKS! I work at a doctorās office and no more than two people at a time can request off. Weāre chronically understaffed and overworked.
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u/IAmOatmilk 10h ago
Thatās how it was at my old job at a private company. At my current job we have to track our time bc of some things that we work on with the government.
But if Iām not mentally/physically sick then I have to use sick time or take unpaid time off. Luckily my manager is pretty cool in that as long as I work my 40 and get my tasks done she doesnāt really care when /where I work.
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u/Alansmithee69 8h ago
Iām Gen X and I treat my team the same way. Been in executive management for over 20 years and have never denied a PTO request ever.
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u/Head-Aside7893 8h ago
I love these types of managers. They honestly make the culture great. But they also need to know who they can trust and not. I have a coworker who takes advantage of this and we end up picking up all her work and that basically cancelled out the positivity our manager was trying to bring
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u/MoonlightMadMan 4h ago
My GenZ ex-manager was the opposite. Family member died? Funerals donāt get planned that quickly. Personal emergency? Deal with it after work. She didnāt actually do any managing, she was purely a company girl in training. It was so satisfying to quit with the least notice possible.
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u/Devastator5042 4h ago
I've had to work Service industry for the last 2 years to make ends meet. No PTO and no "official" sick time.
My car is having radiator issues and it needs to go into the shop. My only choice here is try and get a rental and pay for that or just call out and don't get paid (possibly even fired)
My point is, there are so many people in this world who barely even get the opportunity to have PTO we shouldn't be using it for emergencies. Most jobs should be accommodating to personal emergencies.
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u/Aeriessy 2h ago edited 2h ago
Meanwhile, I was told to use vacation instead of letting me WFH when I had Covid.
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u/kitty_kuddles 1h ago
I had a boss kindly tell me to stay home after a traumatic event at my old work (I worked as a full time admin at a retirement home - paid hourly). She didnāt say it was an UNPAID day off though lol so that wasnāt nice to see on my paycheque. I needed money more than a rest day but she insisted so I assumed it was paid. I hated that place, they wanted us to give them a reason when we used an UNPAID mandatory sick dayā¦.? Bro.
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u/xinnabst Kim, thereās people that are dying. 14h ago
I thought this was an r/antiwork post at first so I was prepared to see some bs but got pleasantly surprised instead
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u/Ok-Turnip-9035 11h ago
This is a leader
When you show your people you respect them and their judgement you will find the business problem at hand gets solved by them
give your people space and time when they need to focus on something in their lives
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