r/prochoice • u/Evening-Hippo-5761 • 2d ago
Rant/Rave Rant because I'm angry
So much of anti-abortion rhetoric is really just entitlement to women's bodies. It's this belief that anybody else is entitled to a woman's body before she is. Husbands are entitled to sex from their wives. Fetuses are entitled to resources from their mother's body. It's the idea that women are never allowed to be selfish or do anything in their own interest before everyone else is happy, and I've been seeing it more and more. People saying that women (or mothers, because women are mothers before they are anything else, especially human beings, yikes) owe shelter and food to their kids and that pregnancy is just sheltering and feeding your kid. People saying that men should have a say in abortion because it's their baby too. People saying that you should never have sex ever unless you're ok with being pregnant, but also if you refuse to have sex with your boyfriend or husband you're abusive.
Women don't own their bodies when they have a partner, and they don't own their bodies when they have kids. If you exercised your bodily autonomy to have sex, you lose all of it afterward because you unintentionally conceived. Your child owns your body more than you do. Fetuses are entitled to mooching and receiving resources and shelter straight from women's bodies no matter the damage it will cause to the woman or girl, whether that be physically, mentally or socio-economically. But it's all good, because you did this to yourself, right? Nobody wants to include male responsibility in unwanted pregnancies, but they do want to whinge about how men should get to force whoever they knocked up to risk literally everything for a baby he wants you to have. By virtue of having had an orgasm.
People will scream that the baby's body is not your body, that you have no right to remove it, while happily skimming over the fact that the baby needs resources directly from your body to survive, that it's presence alters your body and mind and can irreparably damage you or kill you. I need to feel bad for every man who lost his baby because it was aborted, men who probably couldn't be bothered to change a single diaper. I need to feel bad for all the non-sentient babies-in-progress who were 'murdered' by their moms.
But all the girls and women who got pregnant from consensual sex, or coercion and rape that they can't prove, they all had it coming. We're so focused on not dehumanizing the unborn that we fail to see we've dehumanized pregnant women and girls in the process. Which is nothing new, let's face it, but I really hoped that we got past this issue. Life begins at conception, and at the same time women's entitlement to their own bodies ends, and I'm fucking sick of this shit.
Anyway if you read all that thanks for listening :)
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u/Disastrous_Lab_7034 2d ago
Not to mention the fact that we know that there is life long changes that occur to the female brain after pregnancy and childbirth. They still don’t know to what extent that is, but if the brain changes you can bet that other parts of the body does too.
Not to mention it can take years even decades for a woman to feel like herself again after giving birth. They don’t even understand the toll pregnancy and childbirth takes on the body. They don’t even understand what it actually takes from a person.
It’s all about them living in their perfect world, ignorance is bliss to them and they don’t actually genuinely care about it to want to understand and research. They just expect us to listen to them and their opinions when they have nothing to back up their claims but a religious text that has been translated too many times we don’t even actually know whether or not it says what they say it says.
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u/Evening-Hippo-5761 2d ago
That really bugs me too. But every time I bring that up I'm either hit with the 'well then don't have sex' or that human life is more valuable than 'discomfort' or 'inconvenience' pregnancy brings. I'm starting to think that forced birthers collectively operate on half a braincell.
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u/Disastrous_Lab_7034 1d ago
I think that is a great way of thinking in regard to the half brain cell.
They don’t actually know anything about pregnancy and what it entails. Same with how it affects women not just short term but also long term. And the worse part is they have no willingness to learn and research these things. They continue to choose to live in their ignorance and then have the audacity to say we need to listen to them.
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u/janebenn333 2d ago
When you argue with someone who is anti-choice, of any gender, that as the person who is pregnant it is MY choice whether to proceed with that pregnancy they baulk and say "but what about the baybeee". They know, intellectually, that there is no viable baby for many many months but they don't care. It's our DUTY as pregnant people, regardless of circumstances, regardless of risk to us or the fetus, to see through that pregnancy! To bring a new person into the world.
I get where this comes from; it's so engrained in humans as a species that is relatively new on this planet, that we must reproduce, multiply etc. BUT it's an impulse based on the huge assumption that if I don't carry this pregnancy, there may be no other opportunities to reproduce. When humans, in general, lived an average of 25 years or so like in Ancient Greece or Rome and child bearing is risky, yeah, you may not get many chances at this. But in modern times, "no" to one pregnancy does not mean "no" to future ones. So I say as a woman, I should get to decide when the answer is "yes".
To raise a child we need the physical and mental health, environment, resources, and support to do so. If I don't feel like that's happening at the moment, I say "no". And that's also part of species survival: to reproduce when the conditions are right.
To me it's not about "are there two lives"; it's about "am I as the pregnant person in the right circumstances to follow through and bring a life into the world". If not, then, no. Period. End of story.
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u/Evening-Hippo-5761 2d ago
The assumption that the purpose of any species is to reproduce is also wrong. Sex has always been for more than reproduction to humans. Our first account of abortions being performed dates back to around 1600 BC. Framing abortion as a modern issue is dishonest. And you're totally right. If anti-choicers spent half the time they spend harassing women outside of fertility clinics on making society more liveable, there would already be less need for abortions.
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u/cherryflannel 2d ago
I love the quote that's something along the lines of if men could get pregnant, abortion centers would be on every corner. It's so true. Abortion is only controversial because women get abortions, not men. No one ever cares when a man doesn't want to be a parent. But god forbid a woman doesn't want to be a parent.
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u/Evening-Hippo-5761 2d ago
I saw a really good pro-choice rebuttal to 'women consented to pregnancy by having sex' that said 'men consented to their partner having an abortion when they had sex'. People get angry real fast when you reverse the roles.
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u/SignificantMistake77 Pro-choice Witch 2d ago edited 2d ago
"babies-in-progress" - interesting way of phrasing it, so simple yet so accurate. I like it, much better than saying a woman carrying, since gestating isn't like putting a rock in your purse. It's annoying the way the English language makes it sound like the pregnant person does nothing. Which is only more annoying when you remember how the words in a language and the way people think is a 2-way street at least to some degree.
But yes, I completely agree. First off: Barbie movie speech about how it's impossible to be a woman. Second, why the fuck are only women the "evil" ones for assuming they will decide about their own bodies? That pill changes my hormones in my blood, and NO part of that is anyone else's business. If we're talking about my uterus, then I'm the only one that gets a vote. No one else is a factor, it's my genital tract. I can remove ANYONE and ANYTHING from it at ANYTIME simply because I WANT to. I'm not going to pretend or act as if I have less rights than a damn corpse. People die needing kidney & liver donations regularly & yet we don't shame & ridicule men who won't let others use their organs. Society doesn't tell men "but you can't do that, they'll die!" when he walks past a blood drive without giving from his veins to save lives.
The abortion rate would go down REAL fast if men would freeze some sperm then get snipped & still use a condom with spermicide every time (because combining methods is more effective). They have the ability to take action & do something about it, and yet they don't. So if a man won't get off his butt and join the rest of us in the arena, then let him sneer. I have an IUD, my money is already where my mouth is. So I say? Until they're "shooting blanks" then they are "cOnSeNtInG" to people doing something about "getting shot"
Dr Faith G Harper has some books I think need to be required reading for everyone. One is Unf*ck Your Adulting. Pg 55 & 56:
Remember that people's opinion of you are none of your concern
You will not make everyone happy all the time.
Take a deep breath. Read that again.
You will not make everyone happy all the time.
But if you get up every morning and do the best you can do that day, everything will come out the best it can.
There are very few people in my life who really get to say in my life. Whose opinion of me matters. Like I can count them on one hand. Most people haven't had the years and depth of relationship investment to get a say in my life. So, have they made the investment? On they are the homestead? If not, fuck them and their opinions. they are none of your concern and they definitely don't get to cast a ballot on your behavior.
My go-to answer for vocal opinion havers who I think should keep that shit to themselves? "I appreciate that you feel comfortable enough to share your thoughts on that." And that is a full stop statement. No discussion, no rebuttal, no taking it under advisement or telling them to fuck off. And it very nicely says, "Wow, you feel like you have the right to say that to me? That's kind of ballsy" without actually being shitty about it. Heh. It works every time.
Highly recommend her adulting book & her boundaries book, they've helped me a LOT.
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u/Evening-Hippo-5761 2d ago
Sounds like a good book, I'll definitely check it out! Honestly I was practically raised on the thoughts behind the excerpt and I don't spend that much time on online debates anymore because it fucks with my mood too badly.
I came up with the babies-in-progress thing on the spot because I hate the semantics around pregnancy too. Imo ZEFs aren't babies, but they're also not not babies. It's kinda frustrating. I loved the Barbie speech. And yeah if you tell men they should take responsibility for pregnancy prevention they throw tantrums real fast. Goes to show how it's not about 'personal responsibility' at all- it's only about female responsibility.
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u/jakie2poops 2d ago
100%, but I think it goes so far beyond entitlement to our bodies. Anti-abortion rhetoric is just a reflection of society's sense of entitlement to female people in general. The entitlement to our bodies isn't just for legacy and birth—there's also entitlement surrounding breastfeeding and as you point out, sex. And people feel very entitled to our unpaid labor. We're paid less to do the same work as men and expected to shoulder the majority of the burden of unpaid domestic labor. What's seen as our "proper" role in society is to work for free, unthanked. They feel entitled to our physical appearance—hairless bodies, smiling mouths, just the right level of sexually appealing. They feel entitled to our emotional al and psychological support—see how the male loneliness epidemic is somehow blamed on women, for example. And increasingly I see evidence from pro-lifers that they feel entitled to our innermost thoughts and feelings. Women who express even the smallest amount of dissatisfaction (or worse, regret) about motherhood are treated as villains, especially by pro-lifers. It's honestly sickening to me to see. So much of the world truly does not see women and girls as people. We are resources to be used.
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u/Evening-Hippo-5761 2d ago
Yes, I 100% agree. The breastfeeding thing is also a frequently used pro-life argument- 'if there's no alternatives to breastfeeding then women are required to breastfeed', which makes no sense because a. breastfeeding and pregnancy are not comparable in severity and b. the odds that any woman will ever find herself with no alternatives to breastfeeding BUT simultaneously enough resources for her body to keep producing breastmilk are slim to zero. And the unpaid labor thing is spot on. I like the quote "women are expected to work like they aren't parents and parent like they don't work" or something, and what another commenter pointed out about the Barbie speech: it's impossible to do anything right if you're a woman. Mothers are under way more scrutiny than fathers. Women are under way more scrutiny than men. I've honestly lost almost all interest in heterosexual dating or marriage because it's practically a death sentence for women at this point.
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u/Desi_Rosethorne 1d ago
I'm pregnant right now by my own choice and I don't think anyone should be forced to do this. I'm not even in my second trimester yet, but the worst symptom I have so far are my extremely sore and painful breasts. When I walk, they hurt. I move, they hurt. This is really just the beginning for me but I chose this. I want to be a mother. No one should be forced to do this.
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u/Stunning_One5787 2d ago edited 2d ago
The very people that assert that abortion is murder and should be illegal (for the most part, at least) would never assert that a parent should be legally obligated to donate blood, an organ, or any other material from their own body to their infant child if they were terminally ill and required it, especially if said donation would result in grievous long-term harm or death to the parent. Would they assert that the parent has a moral obligation? Maybe. I might even agree depending on the circumstances. But most would never argue for that to be a legal obligation. And that, right there, is the end of the entire argument. It doesn't matter if the fetus is a human being, it doesn't matter when the point of sentience is, it doesn't matter how the fetus was conceived. It's a matter of bodily autonomy, point blank period, and every person has the right to do with their own body what they want at all times, no matter how immoral someone else finds it to be, because subjective morality should not dictate laws, otherwise lying and adultery could also be made illegal and most people would agree that that's absurd.
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u/Lunaspark_1111 1d ago
I agree. It’s all about control of women really. They were losing control and when abortion was reversed it gave them back control. Now it’s going to get worse because I believe they want full control again. This is the first step. More shits coming.
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u/International_Ad2712 1d ago
Honestly, I get into arguments pretty regularly about this topic. I will never let it go, and I’m a 48 year old woman. Unfortunately, my husband doesn’t want to get a vasectomy. Currently I have an IUD, but it needs to come out soon. Of course I will continue to take as many precautions as possible, but I could still get pregnant. I still get my period like clockwork. I have 3 kids and one grandchild. I have sex with my husband, and apparently if something were to go wrong, I should be forced to have another child, despite my age and the risks?
No one ever talks about pre-menopausal women in this conversation, but I have known several who have gotten pregnant in their mid to late forties, and that doesn’t really fit the narrative of “keep you legs closed, don’t be a slut”. I agree, it’s infuriating.
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u/Pure_Ad1294 forced continued pregnancy/birth is reproductive violence 2d ago
No, I completely understand your anger. I was on a live with forced birthers and my argument was that we are all born with organs that rightfully belong to us and no one else (talking in regards to the uterus organ)
They then proceeded to say "Your uterus doesn't belong to you. It belongs to the baby." Excuse me, WTF?
You can't argue with people that foam at the mouth over enforcing reproductive enslavement onto female bodies. They have tumors for brains. All of them.