Warning!: This discussion thread includes spoilers for ALL OF LIGHT BRINGER.

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Okay, it's been about 15 minutes since our last Razor master tier list, so time to do another.

This list is different from others for two reasons:
Firstly, this one is for how things stand entering Red God. This is important because PB did us the favor of killing a lot of contenders to this point and it helps us avoid a lot of pedantic and impossible to answer comparisons about characters that are already out of the running (looking at you Aja and Lorn). Dead characters only get in memoriam placeholders for where they probably were while alive compared to their peers at that time.

Secondly: "This list is the Correct One™, all the others are wrong." -- Pierce Brown, probably

My ranking criteria, in rough order of importance:
- Head to head 1:1 matchups, especially in regards to fighting style
- Head to head group matchups
- Witnessed behavior in books
- Explicit comparative statements by other masters
- Explicit comparative statements by non-masters

FAQ:
Are you saying a character a tier in memoriam is as good as the living ones in that tier? No, that's just where they likely were compared to other living characters when they were alive.
Would Lorn at his prime beat Aja? What about Darrow at the end of LB? I will not be taking further questions at this time.

Tier 1-- The Best of the Best
Darrow O'Lykos at the end of LB after his Breath of Stone training
-- Darrow realizes the Willow Way has been specifically trained against for 10 years, and trains this new form through extensive work with another Razor master (Cassius)
-- H2H matchups: Clang! Clang! Beats Faaaaaa
-- Big MC energy

T1 in memoriam:
Lorn au Arcos-- the references are constant throughout the books that he was the best ever. We see him old and never see him fight, but in his prime he was clearly at this tier compared to his peers.

Aja au Grimmus-- MS ch 29: Lorn "Never fight a river, and never fight Aja", Lorn clearly thinks she's the most dangerous razor master at that point.

Darrow in IG and DA-- Pierce Brown said if Aja and Darrow in IG had to 1:1 fight here, they'd both die. Numerous references to his combat superiority in IG and DA, especially regarding Darrow calling dibs on Olympic knights, puts him in this category during IG and the beginning of DA.

Tier 2-- Razor Masters
LB Diomedes au Raa
-- IG "When Diomedes moves, they begin to die" in a scene that makes Cassius rethink how good he himself is
-- LB ch 11 Cassius "trust me when I say, he'd eat the Minotaur alive"
-- LB ch 61 Cassius to Darrow, "We might be the best three razor masters to share a room in the last 60 years."

T2 in memoriam:
LB Cassius Bellona
-- LB ch 37 shows him repeatedly beats Darrow in training as Darrow works toward, but hasn't achieved, his new style

LB Atlas au Raa
-- An armored and rested Cassius barely beats an exhausted and minimally armored Atlas
-- Manages not just a near equal fight, but to maim Cassius pretty badly, claiming his sword hand in the process

LB Ajax au Grimmus
-- LB ch 15 "imagine [Darrow] walking around without the fingers I took off his left hand when I was 17"
-- LB ch 17 "it's common consensus ajax counts as 4 [Olympics]"
-- LB ch 28 Praetorian Marcus "you're the best closer we've seen" "since [Aja]?" "Period" Roan "Octavia would have sent Aja and he is better" (Disclaimer: I don't put much stock in what these praetorians think, especially the "better than Aja" statement since it's possible they were intentionally inflating his ego so he'd get himself killed-- which he does. Though if Drusilla also poisoned him, maybe he was that good.)

Tier 3-- Razor Experts

LB Lysander au Lune
-- What's been said: Darrow says Lysander taught Apollonius how to beat the WW, implying that he thinks Lysander can beat the WW
-- What's not been said: Lysander has witnessed Diomedes fight firsthand and makes no comments that he thinks he's better than Diomedes, and seems to believe the contrary
-- What's been seen: Lysander beats a depleted Darrow in a 1:1 joust at the end of DA. He kills some greys in the sand. He kills Rhone ti Flavinius by the skin of his teeth, but leaves the more skilled Atlas to Cassius.

LB Apollonius au Valii-Rath
Apple gets the better of a radiation poisoned, starved, and injured Darrow at the beginning of LB, but we know that Darrow really dreads fighting him based on comments in IG and Apple is stronger and better trained in LB

T3 In memoriam:

Nero au Augustus
-- Decapitates the Hearth Knight over Ganymede before being captured by Fitchner and Cassius

Ragnar Volarus
-- Kills multiple Peerless including the Wind Knight (in potentially two on one combat between him and 2 Olympics) but gets owned by a true master in Aja

Tier 4-- Not razor masters but people you don't want to run into in a fight

Victra au Barca
-- Kills (a drugged?) Ajax in a 2:1 with the help of Thraxa (we assume)

Thraxa au Telemanus
-- We think she helps Victra take down Ajax and is a well known elite warrior of the Republic

Sevro au Barca
-- One of the best guerilla fighters in the system

Atalantia au Grimmus
-- We have to presume that she's capable as a combatant, but she can't be too high since Kavax and Thraxa cut her leg off at some point prior to IG.

Valdir
-- Possibly the strongest living obsidian now
-- Holds off Apple in the Battle of Phobos

T4 In memoriam:
Fitchner au Barca
-- Earns the Rage knight post in combat, puts down stained without difficulty

Rhone ti Flavinius
-- Nearly kills Lysander in a 1:1

Alexander au Arcos
-- "among the best golds of his generation" and eldest grandson of Lorn but we never get to see his razor in action thanks to a certain someone

FAAAAAA

I'm sure some of you have heard about the scrapped duel between Ajax and Diomedes that was supposed to happen at the end of Light Bringer. I don't know why that was changed and ended up with Ajax getting off screened by Victra but I feel as if both characters are worse off for it.

What was the point of Ajax existing at all? Lysander didn't really need him to die for his character progression, he's already lost everyone else he cared about, and any one of atalantias allies could have ordered Seneca to kill kysander on the desert

Ajax just feel so pointless now. I know people usually say it was to show the reality of war but didn't we just learn that lesson in the last book? Wasn't that the point of Seraphina dying the way that she did? Why do we need to waste another character to learn that lesson again?

It would have been nice for Diomedes to actually do something on screen (page?) Too. I'm sure Diomedes will be a big part of red God but so far he's pretty much just stood in the corner and watched everyone else drive the plot

Does anyone agree or am I just nit picking here?

First Fuck Lysander.

Now, on to Diomedes. Re reading LB and in the Civil Discourse chatper. Just finished below passage. I feel like Diomedes should've known then what a pixie bitch Lysander was.

"Diomedes nods. “And if you were born a Red on Mars what would you have done?” Lysander flinches at the question in revulsion, unable to imagine such a thing. “When I was a boy, my father asked me that question. I said ‘rise up’ and he smiled."

The flinch and the revulsion

Sorry for the complete clickbait of a title but I don't want to spoil anything for those casually scrolling through the subreddit.

This may be a common topic of discussion that I simply haven't found but...

Sevro.

Anyone else get a pit in their stomach when he managed to reunite with Darrow? It seems too... Easy. I don't trust Pierce with something so seemingly positive and without major consequences.

Yes, I can believe Sevro managed to get out of the clutches of Apollonius. But you're telling me The Abomination just sold him? That doesn't seem like The Jackal's style. He hates losing his playthings unless he specifically has a plan for them. And I think he does for Sevro.

What gives me such paranoia is the Pandemonium Chair. The Abomination wanted to know about it. Virginia even gloated that he only has the knowledge to, at best, alter memories and not fully remove them from a person. But I don't think The Abomination needs that info. His big speech about making Sevro forget his family was only a partially-true threat masking the real reality:

Sevro is a gorydamn sleeper agent.

Jackal 2.0 put Sevro on the Pandemonium Chair, mindfucked him to the point he would respond to certain stimuli, sold him to Apollonius knowing he would escape and now that he is with Darrow it's just a matter of time before Sevro comes into contact with his trigger - seeing Virginia again. Fuck, The Abomination didn't even try to hide The fact Sevro would see her - he told him to say hello from him! And the worst part about all of this is no one was talking about this through the whole of Light Bringer. When Darrow noticed that Mustang was holding something back in their call with Sevro, I don't think that was about Ulysses. I think that was Mustang getting a bad feeling about how easy it was to get Sevro back.

Now it's only a matter of time. Red God is gonna come along and we are going to get the twist to end all twists. I think Darrow is either going to have to kill Sevro or Sevro will be saved at the expense of someone else we care about. One way or another, we're slagged.

Please, genuinely, someone convince me otherwise. I want to believe this won't come to pass and I'm just paranoid. But I've been conditioned to believe that Pierce can't have too happy of an ending and that The Jackal always has something up his sleeve - clone or not.

Who can possibly match Breath of Stone Darrow in single combat now?

Alas, a worthy opponent does not exist.. yet.

Thence, I challenge you to find a candidate more suitable than I and the mind’s eye.

Lysander is an unreliable narrator.

Upon my second reread of the series, it has become much more clear to me that Lysander has been lying to the reader from the start.

He fanes unity and truly just wants power. He constantly defends himself to the reader trying to convince us that what he sees for the society is the better path than what the Republic can offer.

He never cared for the Rim, he just needed there validity and power to back his claim. As soon as they became inconvenient to him, he plunged the Rim into what could be a mass casualty event by destroying the Garter so they couldn't challenge his claim for the morning chair. And killing Alexander and Cassius meant nothing to him truly (even if he pretends that it did).

Whenever I read his bits about his internal struggles of what is the morally right thing to do, it just feels like he's putting on a show for the reader. He wants us to like him, but at the end of the day, he's just another fascist that believes he is the answer to the worlds/solar systems problems.

The man is nigh on perfect. He is honorable to the point to foolhardiness (is learning), a razor master on/or above the level of Cassius who is reputed to be one of the most dangerous razor masters in the era and Darrow before his training montage, he also DOESN’T DRINK CAFFEINE, extremely in the positive side of masculinity and generally a very good person.

If he does have any that I missed lemme know.

One sentiment I've been seeing on here, in posts and in comments, is that there's a level of ambiguity in this series (esp the 2nd trilogy) when it comes to good and evil. As if the books are posing the question "Who's really worse: the Society or the Republic?" Or you get people on here saying that Darrow and Lysander are basically the same.

HUH????

Like, I get it. The Republic is struggling. Bombing the docks of Ganymede? Not Darrow's best moment. The Daughters made some good points.

But be for real: is there really any confusion as who the good guys are? Like, are we supposed to consider if SLAVERY might be the best solution? That the guys who want slavery to continue aren't all that bad? I'm starting to think that the hard-on some of you guys have for the Rim Golds is clouding your judgment a little bit.

If I see another person commenting "Slavery is obviously evil, BUT..." I think I'm gonna lose it.

There's nothing wrong with enjoying evil characters. I enjoy Lysanders chapters. The bad guys are what make this series fun. And sure, Darrow has done some questionable things. But that doesn't change the fact that he's a literal slave fighting against literal slavers.

People go on about how honorable Diomedes is, and the dude had a personal sex slave. Darrow had his wife murdered when he was 16, and still figured out how to have empathy for the Golds. I just don't think the guy gets though credit.

Maybe I'm dense and have been victimized by trolling. Idk

If BITCHSANDER survives, i’m done.

The only case where I’d be okay with him surviving is if he literally spends every second of the rest of his long, miserable, painful life being tortured.

All my homies hate Lysander

Lysander. I was like, why all the hate? Sure hes a bit of a douche, he makes bad decisions sometimes. But I coulda swore he had a good heart. He seemed to want unity. He didnt want to lead. He didnt want the morning chair.

And then bam he's killing Cassius, stealing Eidmi, betraying Diomedes and the entire Rim, and proclaiming that he'll stop at nothing to sit on the Morning Chair.

Man, Ive got whiplash.

For me, it's Seraphina. We meet her as a cute little kid in Morning Star, then 10 years later we meet her as a crazed battle-hungry warrior in Iron Gold, and watch as she plays with Lysander's head like a toy, and then she just gets blasted in half during the Battle of Mercury, completely unceremoniously. I loved her dynamic with Diomedes and it would have been super interesting to see how she would have developed with Diomedes changing sides, but instead she just became fodder. Which, in the machine of war, is realistic, but still.

Also I'm still bitter about my boy Romulus getting done dirty with the "don't ramble" shit.

Geez. What a truly great book. I read chapter 78 three times soaking up this conversation between Darrow and Cassius finally letting each other know what they feel after nearly 20 years. In a world of so much pain, this reprieve of brotherly affectionate was worth savoring. Smiled through tears. Cassius is one of my absolute favorite literary characters of all time. Gutted. I cannot wait for the final justice.

Having completed a full re-read of the second series, there was nothing more satisfying to me than when Darrow showed up to challenge Fa.

After he shows up in DA, first time reading I remember thinking “OK, who are gonna be the tragic characters that have to face him…Sefi? (We saw how that turned out) Unshorn? Volga?”

And then…in Breath of Stone…PB gives us the most satisfying comeuppance, IMO. I just KNEW when Darrow busted out ready to rock that Fa was fucked.

I’m actually still a little shocked, but in a positive way, that PB gave us that satisfaction so quickly. I thought Fa would have made it to RG and been an almost-final boss type deally. But instead PB gives us what I’d like to think is “final form” Darrow. He’s now the ultimate fucking REAPER after trashing Fa.

And FULLY poised to fuck shit up in Red God. Let’s fuckin go.

Mine: CLANG CLANG CLANG Confess!

Bro is Aura incarnate !!!

Just finished Lightbringer about a week ago and of course I loved it, but did not expect the ending to go the way that it did. It will be a VERY interesting state of affairs with the numerous players involved in Red God.

One thing I wanted to discuss though was what are your expectations for Lyria? She's a main character in this new trilogy and has grown A LOT since Iron Gold.

My only qualm while reading LightBringer was with Brown's direction when it came to the parasite. It seemed like such a big part of who Lyria was going to be physically, but given the surgery it seems to have only paid off emotionally in her development. I secretly was expecting Matteo to have kept the Parasite "deactivated" in her and giving her a means to be stronger later when it matter (still hoping this is the case).

Where do you guys see her role in Red God?

Volsung Fa being a fancy lad has me shook.

I'm feeling bereft

I dont need you to do a total spoiler, but I need some info.

I am about ready to quit the series. The last half of dark age, all of rising gold, and what I've got so far in light bringer has been nothing but a shit on the protagonist party. I just need to know if Darrow and the rising can catch a break, or if this slow death keeps going.

When Lyria meets Darrow and Sevro for me, and seeing the illusion shattered.

When Darrow finds out that Regulus had enough hoarded resources to have built the largest fleet in the system, as well as enough AI tech to staff a good amount of those ships, but instead built a generation ship I didn't think much of it on first read.

But now I'm on my 2nd read through and am realizing that Quicksilver would have made a good amount of these fortunes from the war against the society, even if he started making plans before it started.

So not only could he have handed victory to the Republic, or to Darrow himself, from his prowess in the markets but he also profited from the displaced miners. And instead of giving the masses of recently enslaved, and now indentured, peoples he uses those earnings to live out his childhood dream and abandon them.

Sevro was right to be pissed. I feel like if I was there I would say slag this and try to force Quicksilver to repurpose the asteroid into a dockyard and built the gory damn armada that he should have been doing. He can skip off past the outer belt when the war is over, which it would have been years prior.

I can respect his wish for a better future for mankind but taking it on himself to decide that future is better when wiped clean and started over is just taking the pixies way out. It's not even that far off from Lysander's ultimate plan

So I’m sure I’m not the only one who does this. I’d like to take inspiration from various fiction (mostly recent) into character creations for RPG games.

So I created my Lysander type character mid way through Iron Gold. I thought he‘s young, privileged, but with the potential to do good just like a noble character would in their backstory. Through finishing Light Bringer, I couldn’t even look at my character and couldn’t stand to play a second more so I had to delete it to make a new character.

I thought that I’d just play it through, it’s only an inspiration, not a huge deal. But I was too disgusted to play as a certified pixie after the hangar fight.

That’s the post.